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Sun May 2, 2021, 10:40 AM

The Entire Transgender Athlete Controversy is Bullshit from the Right

Republicans, in general, and uber-religious Republicans in particular, are desperately trying to make this into a real, pressing issue. It's not a real, pressing issue, though. Not really. It's not even a real issue.

There are a few transgender kids in every school. A very few. There are even fewer transgender athletes, because most kids in school are not athletes in the first place.

Do transgender women have an advantage over cisgender women? Probably no more of an advantage than very athletic people have over those with less skill, strength, hard work and talent have. The vanishingly few transgender athletes are in competition with other athletes. They will win or lose, based on their hard work, talent, and skills, not their gender identification.

The argument that is being used is a just a subterfuge from the right. They aren't actually concerned with it at all. They are concerned with their invalid perception of sinfulness. They can't successfully argue that, so they use subterfuge.

They say, "Transgender women are stronger, faster, and more athletic, so they shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's athletic events." That's what they say. What they mean is "I don't like the whole idea of transgender people at all. They shouldn't be allowed to do anything, because God or something."

Then, there is the fear ploy. They say, "We can't let people with penises share facilities with cisgender females. They are a threat to our precious girls." More subterfuge and bullshit. They have no examples of transgender women assaulting cisgender women in those facilities, so they resort to lying to attempt to create fear.

It's all bullshit from the religious right, which is neither religious nor right. The reality is that it's not actually a real issue in the first place. It never was. It's yet another made-up issue designed to attack people the religious right doesn't like.

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Reply The Entire Transgender Athlete Controversy is Bullshit from the Right (Original post)
MineralMan May 2021 OP
Diamond_Dog May 2021 #1
MineralMan May 2021 #2
Initech May 2021 #3
MineralMan May 2021 #7
Ocelot II May 2021 #4
MineralMan May 2021 #10
Coventina May 2021 #5
we can do it May 2021 #12
Walleye May 2021 #26
mcar May 2021 #6
Humanist_Activist May 2021 #8
Arthur_Frain May 2021 #9
MineralMan May 2021 #13
FM123 May 2021 #20
Zeitghost May 2021 #21
Arthur_Frain May 2021 #33
obamanut2012 May 2021 #41
marie999 May 2021 #82
redqueen May 3 #105
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #17
Arthur_Frain May 2021 #34
obamanut2012 May 2021 #44
Ocelot II May 2021 #19
Arthur_Frain May 2021 #37
obamanut2012 May 2021 #45
Ms. Toad May 2021 #68
marie999 May 2021 #83
Ms. Toad May 2021 #85
marie999 May 2021 #87
Ms. Toad May 2021 #88
marie999 May 2021 #89
Ms. Toad May 2021 #91
AZProgressive May 3 #109
Ms. Toad May 2021 #75
obamanut2012 May 2021 #40
mcar May 2021 #66
Haggard Celine May 2021 #11
MineralMan May 2021 #14
Ocelot II May 2021 #15
MineralMan May 2021 #16
FreepFryer May 2021 #18
Oneironaut May 2021 #47
FreepFryer May 2021 #50
Zeitghost May 2021 #22
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #23
MineralMan May 2021 #25
LisaL May 2021 #38
North Shore Chicago May 3 #108
Sur Zobra May 3 #126
LAS14 May 2021 #24
MineralMan May 2021 #27
LisaL May 2021 #42
obamanut2012 May 2021 #46
haele May 2021 #28
LisaL May 2021 #39
obamanut2012 May 2021 #48
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #49
LisaL May 2021 #51
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #57
Celerity May 2021 #92
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #93
Celerity May 2021 #99
haele May 2021 #76
panader0 May 2021 #29
MineralMan May 2021 #32
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #61
MineralMan May 3 #113
cabot May 2021 #30
obamanut2012 May 2021 #52
LisaL May 2021 #55
Klaralven May 2021 #80
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #58
cabot May 2021 #71
ismnotwasm May 2021 #31
gulliver May 2021 #35
LisaL May 2021 #36
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #54
Ilsa May 2021 #56
LisaL May 2021 #59
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #62
Ilsa May 2021 #97
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #60
LisaL May 2021 #90
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #94
LisaL May 2021 #98
malaise May 2021 #43
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #53
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #70
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #72
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #73
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #74
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #77
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #81
Nexus2 May 18 #129
Hekate May 2021 #63
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #69
Ms. Toad May 2021 #78
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #84
Ms. Toad May 2021 #86
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #101
Ms. Toad May 2021 #102
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #103
Ms. Toad May 3 #107
WhiskeyGrinder May 2021 #95
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #100
MineralMan May 3 #116
DontBelieveEastisEas May 3 #124
Hekate May 2021 #96
Hekate May 2021 #79
Nexus2 May 2021 #64
prodigitalson May 2021 #65
DontBelieveEastisEas May 2021 #67
redqueen May 2021 #104
hunter May 3 #106
redqueen May 3 #110
hunter May 3 #120
redqueen May 3 #123
hunter May 3 #125
AZProgressive May 3 #128
LisaL May 3 #115
hunter May 3 #121
WhiskeyGrinder May 3 #111
redqueen May 3 #112
WhiskeyGrinder May 3 #117
LisaL May 3 #114
WhiskeyGrinder May 3 #118
MineralMan May 3 #119
redqueen May 3 #122
RANDYWILDMAN May 3 #127

Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:46 AM

1. I agree with you 100%

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Response to Diamond_Dog (Reply #1)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:48 AM

2. Thanks!

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:49 AM

3. I said this on another thread: this is a problem that affects like 0.00000001% of the population.

Yet somehow affects 99.999999% of Fox News viewers.

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Response to Initech (Reply #3)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:57 AM

7. Yes, exactly.

In schools, most transgender students tend to be quiet and try to avoid notoriety. They have a difficult time, because they are such a small minority in their school. They rarely put themselves in the spotlight, because of that.

So, they're not, for the most part, going out for the team anyhow.

Why does the Right make such a big deal about this? Because they can, and because they can use scare tactics to disrupt things and make life even more difficult for such a tiny minority of people. They try to do the same crap, based on race, non-Christian religion, non-English-speaking people, immigrants, and any other minority they wish to bully.

Scapegoating. Right-wingers are such fearful, ugly, anti-social people that the only way they can feel powerful is by picking on others who can't defend themselves. It's a proven strategy, and one that has led to countless deaths and even genocide.



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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:53 AM

4. Another disadvantaged minority for them to pick on -

a particularly inviting one for the party of bullies because they are few, and many are children and therefore powerless. Even better, sexuality is involved, which always freaks out the religious righties. Accordingly, this group is their next culture-war pińata. The GQP seems to have a penchant for focusing on a particular out-group and portraying them as an existential threat to the American Way Of Life who must be feared, oppressed, and if possible, eliminated. It was, and still is, Black people, Hispanic people, Muslims, gay people, Jews, immigrants, and uppity women. Just add trans children to the list because they might turn up in your little girl's bathroom, and then what?

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Response to Ocelot II (Reply #4)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:58 AM

10. Exactly.

And with transgender people, they have such a small group to attack that there's no chance of danger from that group. It's an ideal group in that way for their targeted bullying and discrimination.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:55 AM

5. I love how these meat-heads are suddenly concerned about women's / girls sports.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #5)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:59 AM

12. Winner!!!

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Response to Coventina (Reply #5)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:27 PM

26. Absolutely. As hard as we had to fight to get girls sports in school. The GOP was never on our side.

They’ve never been on the side of women’s rights as any kind

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:56 AM

6. GOP have long been masters at ginning up controversy over nothing

It keeps working, unfortunately.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:58 AM

8. Republican Culture War bullshit that negatively affects minorities nationwide...

 

in an attempt to shore up their base and get them voting in greater numbers than more moderate and/or swing voters.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:58 AM

9. I disagree on this one.

I understand that mix ups occur okay? Ma nature manages to bust out a particular number of babies from the womb (the safest, most routine place I can think of for gestation to originally take place) with two sets of tackle. Sometimes both work, both mostly one is vestigial.

So I sympathize when 12-15 years later, after being subjected to the horror of bad parenting, aggressively hypnotic advertising, cultural bias, and a whole lot more, ma nature decides to do a hormone dump on an unsuspecting child, there’s a shit ton more uncertainty. Who am I? Where do I really belong? We all asked those questions at that age, some more deeply than others.

It’s unfortunate that our culture puts so much emphasis on success in sports when the schools are purportedly there to educate you, but it does. This might not even be an issue otherwise.

But testosterone makes such a difference, I simply don’t see how anyone can consider this as debateable. My wife weighs nearly the same as I, on a similar size frame, but she can only lift a fraction of what I can. That’s almost all testosterone.

It’s not fair to lock people into the genders they’re born with, okay. It’s not fair either, to make all the girls compete with a guy or two who’s a woman in soul and spirit, but still has all the physical advantages that a male has.

I don’t like them either, but we can’t blame everything on the religious right.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #9)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:02 AM

13. You are incorrect.

It is a well-planned strategy from the right. It is deliberate. Make no mistake; they know exactly what they are doing.

Your example of you and your wife is irrelevant. I guarantee that I could find a woman who can lift far more than you can, and who is about your same weight and height. Absolutely I could.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #13)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:49 AM

20. The repubs are weaponizing this as they do everything they pretend to care about.

"It is a well-planned strategy from the right. It is deliberate. Make no mistake; they know exactly what they are doing."

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #13)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:53 AM

21. You certainly could

But the overlap of the strength bell curves is much smaller than you are suggesting. When activities that require low skill and high strength are used to measure raw athletic potential (standing vertical jump is one that is often used) the results are drastically different between men and women. Testosterone is a game changer when it comes to strength due to its effects, both pre and post puberty, on bone and muscle structure.


This of course doesn't mean the right won't use the issue for political gain. But there are plenty of valid reasons to support trans rights that we need to counter that with.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #13)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:56 PM

33. Biology is not irrelevant.

You may be right about the RWNJ having a strategy, but I don’t believe their “strategy” evolves upwards anything other than sheer hatred of the other. I’d think a well thought out strategy would be much more effective than the typical “Not only no but hell no”, which is really all I see here from them, that’s all they’ve had for awhile now.

But I never talked to any right wing religious nut to come by my opinions, it just seems obvious to me. I wouldn’t allow an M to F transgender to play in women’s sports any more than I’d allow an F to M to play concussion games with the guys on the HS football team.

And my example isn’t irrelevant. It illustrates quite clearly that testosterone (and other things that go along with being a physical male) gives men advantages in strength sports that women do not have. Sure you can find an absolute unit of a woman who can outlift a man. That doesn’t change the foregoing realities of testosterone.

An exemption to the rule such as you’ve mentioned isn’t what we are talking about here, and you know that.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #33)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:44 PM

41. You really need to educate yourself on this

Call your local LGBT organization and ask them to educate you. This is really embarrassing for you.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #41)

Sun May 2, 2021, 05:04 PM

82. In competition who can lift more weight, who can run faster, who can throw a shotput or discus

the furthest, and who can swim the fastest. And your last sentence was rude. Try to be more civil. You win arguments by stating facts not by being rude.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #41)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:49 AM

105. They're not wrong.

No one is going to be swayed by activists. Peer-reviewed studies, on the other hand...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #9)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:26 AM

17. Whew, lotta ignorance here in your post.

I understand that mix ups occur okay? Ma nature manages to bust out a particular number of babies from the womb (the safest, most routine place I can think of for gestation to originally take place) with two sets of tackle. Sometimes both work, both mostly one is vestigial.
What you're jocularly and annoyingly describing here is intersex, which may or may not have anything to do with being trans.

It’s not fair to lock people into the genders they’re born with, okay. It’s not fair either, to make all the girls compete with a guy or two who’s a woman in soul and spirit, but still has all the physical advantages that a male has.


Guess what? Trans girls are playing on girls teams *right now* and leagues have found a way to make it work; the fake alarm about sports being ruined comes mainly from politicians and cultural fearmongers. Also "a guy who's a woman in soul and spirit" is a gross way to refer to trans women. Do some reading.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #17)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:02 PM

34. Well

If it ‘may or may not’ have anything to do with being trans, then your point isn’t any good either. If you really missed the point I was trying to make, then I think you’re being purposely obtuse.

I’m well aware it’s going on now. I’m also aware you’re being very generous when you say it’s working.

And if you find me so annoyingly jocular, there’s a great feature here called ignore you can put me on. I’ve run into you before, and I’ve noted you go out of your way to be annoyed by people. Ignoring me might be the easiest out for you.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #34)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:46 PM

44. Why should we ignore ignorance and misinformation?

It is our duty to continually point it out, which the poster did.

You are so wrong, and not even embarrassed by it. You revel in it. Why? I am asking an honest question: why do you seem rather gleeful in how wrong you are posting misinformation.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #9)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:34 AM

19. Not so.

Trans children - at least those whose states haven't decided that medical care is child abuse - usually receive hormone therapy when they reach puberty. A trans girl would be given medication to suppress the production of testosterone, in order to prevent her from developing typical male characteristics. She might end up being a little taller but she will not develop the male musculature that would (at least allegedly) make her able to compete unfairly with cis girls. The entire controversy, which shouldn't be a controversy at all, is being ginned up by the right wing because they need another scapegoat. It's not about sports (when did the GQP ever care about women's sports at all?), it's ostensibly about bathrooms, and it's really about choosing a small, powerless group of people they consider to be odd and that they can easily portray as a threat.

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Response to Ocelot II (Reply #19)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:23 PM

37. Although some folks have responded as such

I’m honestly not trying to be a dick about this.

Yes I’m aware of the hormone therapy, etc. but from my perspective, with respect to what we are discussing here, that would fall under the category of performance enhancing drugs. I wouldn’t sell it under that objection if I were trying to stop it, but from a purists perspective it makes sense. Why do some get to use drugs and others don’t?

As I pointed out in my first post, I get it. Sometimes a woman is born in a mans body, and vice versa. There are some things that are just not going to be available to you in this life if that happens to you. None of us will get to do everything in this life we want to, sometimes we will be denied by our own limitations, and sometimes by societies (others).

And if I missed something recently where the right wing “ginned this up” well forgive me. After the shithead was removed from office, I think I have tuned out for a while on really current affairs, at least after 1/6 it was about all I could take for awhile. But I haven’t heard them going on about this, but then I don’t watch Fox News, nor has there been anything about this in the headlines I’ve read.

Honestly, this is just one of those subjects where I’m going to have to disagree with people. And part of that is the whole “trans children” argument. I’m just not going to go there today.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #37)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:47 PM

45. JFC

Why the hell does DU allow this anti-trans info here?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #45)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:48 PM

68. Because members here are steeped in the same trans-hostile culture

As the rest of the world, and apparently a majority of them have bought into it.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #68)

Sun May 2, 2021, 05:09 PM

83. No, some of us look at sports and see that men excel over women in powerlifting, swimming, and

racing to name a few. Look at your hometown track and field events and see how men and women do.

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Response to marie999 (Reply #83)

Sun May 2, 2021, 05:32 PM

85. Thank you, once again, not having the backs of LGBT people.

This "controversy" is nothing more than the successful Republican strategy of 2004, retooled since gay marriage won't work any longer because Democratic opposition has vanished.

They have found their new issue (i.e. victim that enough Democrats won't defend - or, worse, will join in the Republican pummelling) to win on in 2022.

In case you've forgotten, beating up on lesbians and gays who wanted to marry played a significant role in handing George Bush a victory in 2004.

Republicans latched on to same gender marriage because they knew Democrats were not united on the issue - and many actively opposed it. They framed it as defending against a push by gays for marriage (when, in reality, it had been a strong legislative and ballot box push to expressly ban marriage. Many states, at Republican initiative, passed not only legislation - but constitutional amendments - to make doubly sure I would never be able to marry).

In the 2004 campaign, they expressly framed it as a freedom of religion issue: If gays were allowed to be married - churches would be forced to marry people even though it violated their religious beliefs. They framed it this way very deliberately - because they knew that it would appeal to liberals who value freedom of/from religion, even those who support recognition of our families. I can't even count the number of my friends I had to talk down off of this particular false ledge. (Catholics are not required to marry divorced individuals, merely because the state permits divorced people to remarry - the very concept was ridiculous, but they are very skilled at framing).

Here, they are framing it as an equity for women issue - also designed to attract liberal support.

In the 2004 campaign, they put constitutional anti-marriage amendments on the ballot expressly to drive conservative votes to the poll (flooding the polls with conservatives who might not otherwise have bothered to get to the polls, and who would vote for Bush whille they were there), knowing that we could not simultaneously campaign in support of gay marriage without risking people shifting votes from Kerry to Bush.

This is the exact same strategy, chosen for the exact same reason, just in time to be revved up for 2022 to shift the balance of power in Washingon. You are being used.

First - educate yourself. You are flat out wrong. Research and find out how few individuals we are talking about, how little difference there is (there is far more difference within "a" sex than there is "between" them. Quotes, because if you think there are only two biological sexes that is another place to educate yourself - there are already biological with female genetalia competing in athletics who just aren't aware they are XY), and the impact this will have on trans children - who are being used as a tool by Republicans - unfortunately with the consent and support of some Democrats.

Second - if you can't get to supporting trans individuals, at least remain silent about it, if for no other reason than to avoid the possibility that those of us who have been used as hammers against Democrats might actually know from sad experience what is going on here.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #85)

Sun May 2, 2021, 06:47 PM

87. My post was strictly about sports. You have no idea about my views about the

LGBT community. And no I will not remain silent about it or anything else I wish to comment on. Everyone has the 1st Amendment right of free speech, not just people who agree with you.

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Response to marie999 (Reply #87)

Sun May 2, 2021, 07:14 PM

88. Your post about sports speaks volumes.

Just as those who claimed to support LGBT people, who posted excuses about why we should not be allowed to be married spoke volumes about them in 2004.

I'm done excusing "allies," who fall for Republican dirty tricks that use our lives to gin up false controversies for their (Republican's) political gain. They (Republicans) do it over and over again, and I'm too tired off fighting for basic human rights to spend much time politely educating people who should know better.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #88)

Sun May 2, 2021, 07:26 PM

89. Yes my post about sports speaks volumes.

It shows why transgender females should not play on girls' teams. I have not fallen for Republican dirty tricks I am going where the science leads me. And you do not politely educate people.

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Response to marie999 (Reply #89)

Sun May 2, 2021, 07:39 PM

91. If that gives you comfort, so be it.

But science does NOT support your position.

There are currently people with Y chromosomes but vulva and clitorises participating in women's teams (they have been for years - no one generally bothers to check for chromosomes). This campaign does nothing to protect "true women" from them.

There are currently people with testosterone in the "male" range who are chromosomally and visibly female. There have been for years. No one checks for testerone levels. This campaign does nothing to protect "true women" from them.

Sex (similar to gender) is a spectrum. Currently we treat it as binary. But there are people closer to the "male" end of the spectrum who are competening in women's sports. This campaign does nothing to protect "true women" from them.

Sex and gender are far more complex that Republicans (and far too many Democrats) are aware. There are no neat dividing lines, only trends on a spectrum.

This campaign is solely about discriminating against trans women - and about attracting as many liberals as Republicans can to their cause by framing it as protection of female athletes (somethign liberals woudl support) in order to use it as a wedge issue in the 2022 elections. Just as they did so effectively in 2004.

And I have spent more than a decade on DU politely educating people about LGBT issues. I'm just done.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #85)

Mon May 3, 2021, 08:33 AM

109. I agree

People keep falling for tricks from the Republicans and not only on this issue.

Also Republicans don't have anything else to run on when it is Democrats with real policy goals and have actual solutions to problems.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #37)

Sun May 2, 2021, 03:21 PM

75. I know a number of trans children,

Who have blossomed since their parents listened to them about their gender, including some as young as 7 who were suicidal prior to that time.

One identified himself at 3 (in a supportive family), and now, at 14 has been on testosterone for a couple of years. As to that child, before identifying as male he was constantly refers to using male pronouns, and once he started identifying as male, even some fundamentalist Christians expressed relief that they didn't constantly have to remind themselves to use female pronouns, since the masculine pronouns were so much more natural for him.

My high school sweetheart knew around age 7. She came out in her late 50s, after believing for decades she had to hide who she was. The past decade and a half have made such a dramatic change in her life - it is tragic that she was told early on that she could not be herself - and had to hate herself and dread that she would lose everything (her career, her wife, her family of origin, her friends), if anyone found out the truth. Fortunately, her hands (a tell for many trans women) have always been small, and she was able to afford facial feminization surgery - so virtually no one misgenders her - but many women who go through puberty flooded with testosterone are never recognized on sight as women.

I know zero trans children who have reclaimed the gender they were assigned at birth, and the only adult trans individuals I know who have done so were women, whose physical appearance made it impossible for then to avoid the abuse our society heaps on gender non-confirming women. For them, it was easier to return to pretending to be male, than to fight being accosted when they entered the bathroom, or to put up with the daily points and stares.
That is an issue that can only be addressed by allowing trans children to go through puberty, with hormones that match their gender identity.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #9)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:42 PM

40. Beyond epic fail

You fell for the big lie. Do better, and educate yourself.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #9)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:41 PM

66. None of what you say is accurate

So I sympathize when 12-15 years later, after being subjected to the horror of bad parenting, aggressively hypnotic advertising, cultural bias, and a whole lot more, ma nature decides to do a hormone dump on an unsuspecting child, there’s a shit ton more uncertainty. Who am I? Where do I really belong? We all asked those questions at that age, some more deeply than others.


Trans people become trans because of bad parenting and advertising?

Do you really think that a person would choose to be transgender? I cannot even imagine the psychosocial and emotional trauma a trans kid has to endure.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:59 AM

11. I think it's mostly about using

the same bathroom. As you say, they don't agree with the whole idea of allowing transgender people anyway, but their biggest scare tactic is telling women they'll be sharing a bathroom with "men" and that gets them outraged. People are so hung up about bathrooms.

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #11)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:08 AM

14. When I was in middle school, I took a peek into an unoccupied

girls' bathroom. I was surprised to see that there was a couch in there and a sanitary napkin dispenser.

Guess what? The girls did the same thing with the boys' bathroom. They giggled about the urinals in those.

That's middle school for you.

Do you know what doesn't happen? What doesn't happen is some guy who puts on women's clothing and enters women's' bathrooms to sexually assault the women in them. That doesn't happen. What does happen, though, is transgender women going into those bathrooms to use them as they were intended to be used. That happens all the time, and nobody even notices.

Which transgender female athlete has won a gold medal at the Olympics, competing as a woman? Name one. I can't do that, either.

It's all bullshit.

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Response to Haggard Celine (Reply #11)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:13 AM

15. The whole notion is ridiculous.

Women's public rest rooms are, of course, not built in a way that would make ogling or determining the biological equipment of another person possible, as the toilets are enclosed in cubicles. It's quite possible that at some point I have shared a rest room with a trans woman, and I never would have known (or cared), because that woman would have been there for the same reason I was. She would not have been there to check out or molest the other users of the rest room, since she would also have been a woman as far as she and anyone else were concerned and was just using the plumbing like the rest of us. Trans women are not men in disguise. They're women.

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Response to Ocelot II (Reply #15)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:21 AM

16. Exactly!

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:26 AM

18. And we have at least one user here spoonfeeding DU every bit of it. It's a bit much. (Nt)

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Response to FreepFryer (Reply #18)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:49 PM

47. A couple users on this site exclusively post on threads about trans issues.

They openly post far-right / TERF propaganda. Then, when you challenge them on it, they respond by pretending to be a concerned citizen who, while not very versed about teh transes, has seen enough to be concerned about the children. They’re bad faith trolls not worth engaging.

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Response to Oneironaut (Reply #47)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:53 PM

50. This. Appreciate the confirmation. (Nt).

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:12 PM

22. If there is no competitive advantage...

Then why not get rid of womens sports altogether? From youth sports to the olympics, simply have one open class per event?


Personally, I'll pass on that idea. I want my daughter to know she's on a level playing field when she jumps in the pool.

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Response to Zeitghost (Reply #22)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:19 PM

23. But your daughter isn't on a level playing field. That's the whole point of sports.

It's also entirely possible she's beaten trans girls and doesn't even know it.

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Response to Zeitghost (Reply #22)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:27 PM

25. Why not? Because athletes want to have equality in athletics

for men and women. That has nothing whatever to do with transgender people playing sports on the teams with which they identify as appropriate for them as individuals. Nothing.

I wish your daughter every success as an athlete. I wish the same for every person, including transgender girls and boys, men and women. Do you suppose that there are cisgender males who would choose to compete against girls or women, while still maintaining their status as boys or men? I doubt that very much. If you can find a single example, I will be astonished.

Here's the thing: Transgender people are a tiny minority in any group of people. There simply aren't many of them, compared to cisgender folks. They are not a significant issue when it comes to athletic competitions.

Take a look at your daughter's school. How many transgender girls are clamoring to be on the girls' teams? Do you know? Ask your daughter if there are any transgender girls on her swim team and whether she would care if there were. Do that, and then get back to me.

It is not a real issue. There is no "unfair" competition. Your daughter will be competing on a level playing field, I'm very sure. Will she be a champion? That I cannot say. That will be up to her, her athleticism, and her dedication to excellence. Help her develop those things, and she will do her very best. That is what matters in the end.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #25)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:25 PM

38. The reason we separate men and women sports is that, in general, women aren't competitive

against men.
If you say we should have equality in athletics, regarding of gender, then women sports are going to be gone. Because, again, women aren't going to be competitive against men.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #38)

Mon May 3, 2021, 05:48 AM

108. +1

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Response to LisaL (Reply #38)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:05 PM

126. That's the whole enchilada

Say goodbye to the strides girls and women have made as a result of Title IX if transgendered females are allowed to compete in women’s sports in high school an college, also say goodbye to our daughters getting athletic scholarships to college.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:24 PM

24. It's an interesting question, requiring knowledge and education. It's ridiculous to label...

... any discussion of the issue a right wing plot. We were taught that testosterone accounts for a very significant difference in physical attributes between men and women. Why isn't it reasonable to ask the question? To want to find answers? I did hear a helpful answer the other day. Some governmental entity (city, state, don't remember) has disallowed transgender females from joining female sports until after one year of hormone therapy. It sounds like some people allowed themselves to look into the issue. I wonder if they were all labeled right wing bigots?

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #24)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:29 PM

27. Do you not understand how few people this applies to?

Check your local schools. Is it even an issue in them? In most cases, the answer will be no. There is no real issue here. It is a made-up issue. Most transgender students have far bigger issues to face than that. Most will not become athletes at all. As for the hormone therapies, that is an individual decision between the individual and a physician. Parents of minors may also be involved. You will not be, and nor will I.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #27)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:45 PM

42. If it affects nobody, why are you concerned about it?

NT

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Response to LisaL (Reply #42)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:49 PM

46. Because it is rank misinformation and bigotry

Which does nothing but snowball even more misinformation and bigotry, and none of this should be allowed on DU.

MineralMan is 100% right, and I appreciate his advocacy for LGBT folks.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:41 PM

28. Most transgender women I have met are physically comparable to most cis women

They may be a bit taller, but frame wise, there's not a lot of difference. And the two I know working shipyards with me, they weren't that much stronger or faster that other physically fit women, either.

Hell, Caitlyn (nee Bruce) Jenner doesn't seem to be much different in strength than any other woman her age that goes to a gym three times a week with a trainer. The upper body strength difference is probably negligible at this point.

There's a spectrum in gender genetics; not only two sex chromosomes, but sometimes it three and sometimes an incomplete pair; unless someone actually runs the tests, just looking at a newborn's outward genitals and putting down a gender on the basis of what is dangling is pretty much still a gamble.


That's the danger when non-doctors try and legislate medical/genetic science issues.

Haele

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Response to haele (Reply #28)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:35 PM

39. Jenner was an Olympic Champion in decathlon.

Are you really going to argue there is no difference in strength between Jenner and your average female?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #39)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:51 PM

48. Zero advantage

Caitlyn Jenner is not Bruce Jenner in any way. Fit women her own age will not be at a disadvantage playing a sport against her, unless it is something where height is an obvious and huge advantage, such as basketball.

Educate yourself what hormone therapy does.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #39)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:52 PM

49. Once Caitlyn Jenner started taking testosterone blockers, that advantage is gone.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #49)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:55 PM

51. Just like that?

All the development of the body (height, muscle mass, etc) when testosterone was there doesn't matter?

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Response to LisaL (Reply #51)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:13 PM

57. It usually takes a year or so.

Height has is largely determined by genetics, not hormones. Muscle mass drops when you block testosterone.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #57)

Sun May 2, 2021, 07:49 PM

92. What if a M to F trans teen in high shool is not on any sort of testosterone blockers or

any other transition bio-regimin? Should they be allowed to compete in girl's athletic events? If yes, then should cisgendered girls be allowed to use steroids, etc. to boost their performance levels?

Not being confrontational btw, at all, simply looking for workable guidelines.

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Response to Celerity (Reply #92)

Sun May 2, 2021, 08:12 PM

93. "Should they be allowed to compete in girl's athletic events?"

Sure.

If yes, then should cisgendered girls be allowed to use steroids, etc. to boost their performance levels?


No.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #93)

Sun May 2, 2021, 08:47 PM

99. oki, I agree on the 2nd, disagree on the first, thanks

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Response to LisaL (Reply #39)

Sun May 2, 2021, 03:23 PM

76. Jenner has also not continued to train over the past three decades.

In fact, one might say he "let himself.go" based on film from 15 years ago, the "twenty pounds the camera puts on you" notwithstanding.

The other thing to remember is that going through the process, testosterone is significantly reduced, and from my experience watching a young man transition, the muscle mass reduces some, becomes leaner.

While Jenner was an Olympic Decathlete, there are women who were also Olympic champions, just as there are female wrestlers who compete with males through High School, and grown women who can meet the physical qualifications for elite special forces unit.

I'm not saying Jenner isn't physically stronger than the average woman her age I'm saying there are women at her age that can compete on Jenner's level as she is now.



Haele

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Response to panader0 (Reply #29)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:46 PM

32. There really isn't any evidence.

That tells me that it is not really an issue. It's all politics and religion. It's all bullshit.

As far as I know, I don't know any transgender people, personally. But, then, I might not know that someone I meet is transgender, in the first place. It's not something I wonder about, frankly.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #32)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:21 PM

61. Sports that exclude men is an issue


If you are saying that having sports that exclude men is not an issue, you are obviously wrong.

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #61)

Mon May 3, 2021, 09:16 AM

113. This thread is not about that.

It is about transgender athletes.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:44 PM

30. Exactly

The effects of testosterone should be investigated more.

The issue that made me feel differently on this particular topic was Laurel Hubbard, daughter of a NZ billionaire. She transitioned 10 years ago. She’s in her early 40s. She won gold at the Pan-Pacific games, beating a 19-year-old woman of colour, who had not only been homeless, but was a rape survivor. The look on the girl’s face when she lost out to a person of immense wealth and privilege made me question the fairness of it. Laurel transitioned in her 30s….the effects of testosterone were well entrenched. How is that FAIR?

As for washrooms, I think they should all be mixed sex. As long as each stall guards the user’s privacy, who cares who is using the stall next to you.

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Response to cabot (Reply #30)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:55 PM

52. Except Hubbard has no more testerone than the woman she beat

And, her opponents may very well have more than she does. HUbbard won because she has 10+ years more experience, and her wealth means she can afford better trainers, etc. It is like that in literally any sport, at any level.

And, what the hell does the opponent being a POC or rape survivor have to do with anything??? Your post is soooo disingenuous.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #52)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:04 PM

55. There were years prior to transition while her body reaped benefits of testosterone (muscle mass,

height, bone density.) It doesn't all just go away because testosterone is lower, benefits are already present.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #55)

Sun May 2, 2021, 04:27 PM

80. Mail pelvic girdle, hip sockets, and femur alignment for running, etc.

Does Jenner run like a girl?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #52)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:16 PM

58. Sounded sincere to me


quote -->Your post is soooo disingenuous.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #52)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:53 PM

71. No, I just have empathy

This woman turned to weightlifting to help her psyche. And then some rich, entitled middle-aged person comes along - one who has had years of testosterone advantage - and beats her. Sorry you don't feel compassion.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:45 PM

31. K&R

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:13 PM

35. The exception nearly always proves the rule

We've drawn a line between men's and women's sports. That works well. Women have benefitted enormously, imo, and it's a huge success story for the human race.

Unfortunately, any time you draw a line in reality, you end up with edge conditions, situations that are toss-ups. The easiest thing to do is to change the laws and divide sports into "two-X chromosome and non-two-X-chromosome participants." I.e., it's no longer "women's and men's sports," but a categorization based on an objective criterion. In particular, it makes no statement that a person with an X and Y chromosome is a man or woman. It simply chooses their categorization for sports participation.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #35)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:22 PM

36. So you are proposing to DNA test all the kiddies in order to let them participate in sports?

NT

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Response to gulliver (Reply #35)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:59 PM

54. Y or no Y

I think it would be based on having a 'Y' or not.

Because there are, I believe, XXY types

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Response to gulliver (Reply #35)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:05 PM

56. There is an athlete who played on women's teams in college and

professionally. She didn't play her sport in the Olympics because of the drug testing, and maybe DNA testing. A friend of mine who majored in kinesiology and athletics and math said she suspected that this athlete had a chromosome variation based on the way she moved. I wondered the same thing. (No judgment, just wondering.)

If she was tested under a new qualification system, where would she be placed? Not everyone is XX or XY.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #56)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:18 PM

59. There is a big controversy about this lady competing,

She appears to be intersex, so she has elevated testosterone.

"Caster Semenya was raised as a female and is legally female. She's fighting rules that affect DSD athletes who have what are typically male XY chromosomes, who were born with internal testes and who have testosterone levels higher than the typical female range."

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/31/728400819/i-am-a-woman-track-star-caster-semenya-continues-her-fight-to-compete-as-a-femal

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Response to LisaL (Reply #59)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:31 PM

62. Athletes perform differently at different parts of their menstrual cycles due to hormonal

fluctuations; maybe governing bodies could put all athletes on hormone regulators so they're cycling at the same time so their competitions are fair.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #59)

Sun May 2, 2021, 08:43 PM

97. She's not the one I was thinking of,

whose chromosomal makeup is unknown to the public. But, yeah.

DSD is what, designated sex d___?

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Response to gulliver (Reply #35)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:19 PM

60. So Mack Beggs should keep wrestling people who are also XX?

Assuming his chromosomes are XX. What a tiresome and narrow view of the world.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #60)

Sun May 2, 2021, 07:29 PM

90. Since he was taking testosterone, it would have made a lot more sense to let him compete

against males.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #90)

Sun May 2, 2021, 08:17 PM

94. He was actually taking a small enough dose as well as puberty blockers to ensure he could continue

to wrestle in high school, since the state wouldn't let him compete as a boy because of his birth certificate. Taking low-dose T doesn't mean you erupt in muscles overnight.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #94)

Sun May 2, 2021, 08:45 PM

98. They would have let him compete as a girl regardless of how much testosterone he took,

since testosterone was prescribed by an MD, thus was not considered a performance enhancing drug.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:46 PM

43. They need something new

The party of family values never existed and Trump buried that bullshit for them.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:57 PM

53. Why have Men and Women Divisions at all ?

Quote --> They will win or lose, based on their hard work, talent, and skills

Why allow different divisions at all?

Talent, in many sports, includes things like strength and height and weight and muscle mass.

XX types an XY types have a far different median/mean traits/talents.

In high schools of 800+ students, you would find that in open competition for 50 yard dash, that the XX types would generally outperform the XY types.

I believe there should a separate division for types that do not contain a Y.

I understand that if is difficult making the determination for who gets to qualify as XX.
However, sports that limit eligibility for XX is very important in my opinion.

Hopefully, there is, or will be a saliva test that can easily determine XY.


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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #53)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:53 PM

70. When you talk about "generally outperforming," you're still going to have standouts.

So why not just rely on people self-reporting and go from there?

Worrying about whether people's chromosomes match how you see them is weird. Wanting to test children to make sure their chromosomes matches what you think about them is gross. Calling it "difficult but very important" is not about sports at all.

In high schools of 800+ students, you would find that in open competition for 50 yard dash, that the XX types would generally outperform the XY types.


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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #70)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:57 PM

72. It is weird

As long as it is not as easy as a saliva or skin cell test, it would be weird.
So, I guess I agree that there is nothing to be done at this time if a bunch of boys decide they are going to blow up the girls teams at their high school, college, etc.


At the highest levels though, at the NBA or Olympic level, I think it is doable and necessary to the point of saying, lets check.



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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #72)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:58 PM

73. The Olympics disagree with you.

And no matter how easy the test is, it's invasive, weird, and puts kids in danger.

Do you know your sex chromosomes?

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #73)

Sun May 2, 2021, 03:15 PM

74. NO (actually yes due to genome sequencing)

I agreed that it is kind of weird for the kids. Even if it were non-invasive.
It is a little weird, for some children, that the schools do a lot of things by boy girl differentiation.

It now seems a little weird that they mark down boy or girl at birth.
Would it be more accurate if they did a XXX check at birth in the future, as far as birth certificates.
At least then there would not be surprises later in the child's life.

What if a person thought they were XX came back as XXY or XY. That would make that child feel very weird.

But at the Olympics, if there were a simple test, don't you think they would do it?
Or what about in the WNBA where million dollar contracts might be at stake?

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #74)

Sun May 2, 2021, 03:30 PM

77. "But at the Olympics, if there were a simple test, don't you think they would do it?"

No, because they've decided it's not an issue.

Or what about in the WNBA where million dollar contracts might be at stake?
Lol at "million dollar contracts" in the WNBA, but both that league and the NWHL have found ways to be flexible and accommodating to their nonbinary/trans players so far, and neither society nor the sports have collapsed.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #77)

Sun May 2, 2021, 04:49 PM

81. You win this point, for now.

They decided it is an issue.
And they currently use testosterone over a period of time, I believe.


Part of the reason they are not using genetic tests is that there are so many opinions on the XY and the X and the XXY etc.
Testing for a 2nd X was there method for a while, which would miss the XXY types.
Mentions of unreliability and expense also are mentioned as to reasons they went away from the genetics.

Some articles say,
"Plans by the International Olympic Committee to introduce stricter guidelines for transgender athletes before the Tokyo 2020 Games have run into the sand because its panel of scientists is struggling to reach agreement on such a thorny issue."

And,
"However, several sources have confirmed to the Guardian that the IOC’s draft guidelines have been parked, for now, because the whole subject is so politically charged and sensitive."


Quote --> society nor the sports have collapsed

That is not the point. Society wouldn't collapse even if sports were banned.
But it is unfair to the individual non 'Y' person that the sport (WNBA) was designed for.
I did say 'million dollar contracts might be', cause I don't know how much they go for right now. But what if their contracts do get larger and there are 'Y' types that want to get those contracts? It would be unfair to the non 'Y' types that it was designed for.



I'll give up my vote on this. Maybe I'm ready to side with you and say let the minors play with whatever team their guardian wants them to play on.

But not on the point that this is a bullshit issue. Or that anyone that says they think there should be some way of having a deciding method is just a political hack or a misguided religious zealot.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:31 PM

63. GOP needed a new punching-bag & adult LGBTQ are by now too strong, so they picked little kids...

...and teenagers. Like their hero Trump, they punch down.

The “religious” arm of RWNJs are incredibly useful idiots for the GOP, and the GOP will beat on this non-issue until it bleeds.




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Response to Hekate (Reply #63)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:51 PM

69. Issue for Whom

So, if something polls
40 - 60 for Dems
and
80 - 20 for Rep.

And the Reps see an opportunity to create a BIG issue about it, does that mean that we must suddenly decide that we must go ALL IN on the other side?

It seems that we change how we debate, or even if we are allowed to debate, depending on how big of an issue the REP side has decided to make it.

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #69)

Sun May 2, 2021, 03:42 PM

78. Let me remind you of 2004,

When my marriage to another woman was used to re-elect George Bush. It was the issue chosen by republicans to drive their base to the polls, precisely because they knew that campaigning in favor of gay marriage would also alienate many dems. And after the election, many here blasted LGBT people for losing the election by refusing to wait or turn for our rights, as if we had made it the issue of the year - even though many of us remained silent on the constitutional bans on marriage in the ballots, since we knew the stakes all too well.

This is history repeating itself.Republicans have chosen the issue, they are marketing it in such a way that they can later frame it as a defense, rather than the attack that it is, and, just like same gender marriage, dems are falling for it.

So yes, if you truly support LGBT people, you do have to go all in to support us. If you don't understand how vile this is, educate yourself (both as to trans issues, and well-known Republican attack strategies). If you can't wrap your mind around it and sort us, at least remain silent. Prove to us that this is not gay marriage, all over, again, and that this time you finally have our backs.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #78)

Sun May 2, 2021, 05:10 PM

84. I'm with you.

I'm all for gay marriage. And I think things like that are so central to human rights, that it should be out front as an issue if someone opposes it. So, I am not for hiding it, just because it is election time. That would be like hiding anti slavery views, just because it was election time. I would say, be with my side BECAUSE I believe in that.

I strongly support anyone that is Gay. I love and support Transgender people. I strongly support Women.

I don't easily see why that means I should support allowing Men, Gay or not, or Transgender people playing in sports designed for women.

I do understand how a person born with a 'Y' and now identifying as female would want to participate. They may want to do all things as if they were the most female person in the world. And, it would break my heart that they wouldn't be allowed to play in the female league.

It also breaks my heart that those born as non 'Y' genetics, would have to compete with those born with the 'Y'


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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #84)

Sun May 2, 2021, 06:08 PM

86. "as if they were the most female person in the world" - can you get any more offensive?

Trans women **ARE** women. Period. No "as if"

You are not with me, and you don't love and support trans peopleas long as you don't view them as fully women, and as long as you insist that they be prohibited from women's activities because - regardless of the excuse - they are not really women. And make no mistake. That is exactly what you are saying.

You say you support gay marriage. But my spouse not having a "Y" is precisely the excuse that was used for decades to prohibit my wife from marrying me and from creating a legal relationship with our daughter. She may have wanted to marry a woman, and it might have broken your heart to deny her that right, but a marriage requires a "Y" chromosome. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it. You are saying the same thing about trans women.

Sex is not binary, and distribution of testosterone does not fall strictly along the biological sex spectrum, and puberty (along with testosterone triggered muscle development) hits at different ages. All of these are spectrums - trans women are similarly part of that spectrum, and barring trans women, alone, based on your inaccurate presumptions that they will have an unfair advantage over a person without a "Y," will not solve the non-problem you are attempting to solve. There are already women with Y chromosomes participating athletics - they just don't know it because they don't have a penis. There are women who naturally have more testosterone than some men participating. (And, similarly, there are men who - assuming testosterone is the issue - will not be competitive in men's sports because they have less testosterone than is typical for men.) That doesn't even address the range in strength, height, atheletic abilities regardless of gender.

One study, often referred to as GH-2000, was a ‘spin-off’ from a project designed to trace abuse of growth hormone in sport. By the end of the original experiment (conducted in 2012 during the London Olympics), there was sufficient serum for the study of hormonal profiles of 693 elite athletes. The blood samples were drawn from 454 males and 239 female athletes in 15 competition categories within two hours of their competition. Results showed that contrary to what researchers had expected, there was a substantial overlap in testosterone levels between the sexes, as 16.5 per cent of males demonstrated low testosterone levels (under 8.4 nmol/L, the lower limit of the normal reference range for males), whereas 13.7 per cent of females demonstrated high testosterone levels (above 2.7 nmol/L, the upper limit of the normal reference range for females).

. . .

The other study, commissioned by the IAAF and conducted at the 2011 IAAF Track and Field World Championships in Daegu, South Korea, is referred to as the Daegu study. This study measured testosterone levels among 849 female athletes, with a goal to estimate the prevalence of hyperandrogenism and other disorders of sex development (DSD) among high-level female athletes. Results demonstrated that median testosterone levels among elite female athletes were similar to those of non-athlete healthy young females (0.69 nmol/L median found in sampled athletes), with the 99th percentile calculated at 3.08 nmol/L. Out of 839 women tested, 9 had testosterone levels greater than 3 nmol/L, and 3 women had levels above 10 nmol/L. Despite the plausible speculation that high-level athlete women would demonstrate higher testosterone levels than their non-athlete counterparts, this hypothesis was not confirmed in the data.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5570685/

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #86)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:05 PM

101. Not on everything


I'm not with you on everything. Gay marriage yes.

I love and support Men as humans, but I would prohibit them from playing in women activities.
It seems womens activities are sometimes in place because it is a field where they are not as competitive in open competition.

It is binary, Womens sports and Mens sports.

I can support XX, X, XY and XXY etc while still prohibiting some from non open sports competition. Prohibiting some is the thing that makes it non open competition. So, some are going to be prohibited. If I'm setting the rules, it would not be by testosterone, it would be by genetics. Possible only the XX group.

Sex is not binary, but the leagues are.

It is sad that the first study you listed says that there is substantial overlap in testosterone levels
When I look at that data, it seems that if there are about 200 Men and 200 Women, the highest level woman 'might' have a higher level than the lowest level man. And even then, were the 3 women in at the above 10 level dosing?

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #101)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:26 PM

102. Trans women are women. Period.

When you prohibit trans women from playing in women activities, you are not prohibiting men from playing in women's activities. You are prohibiting women from playing in women's activities.

From the number of times you imply that trans women are not really women, it is obvious that you do not support trans individuals.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #102)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:07 PM

103. Then change the limiting factor

Perhaps the definition of female is any person who identifies that way.

Is it possible that the definition varies depending on the context?
For example, as for military service or which schools you can enter or for medical treatment or sports or scientific classification .

If we go by your definition, then when it comes to sports,
we could call it the X, XX, XXX league.

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #103)

Mon May 3, 2021, 02:15 AM

107. No. You call it the women's league.

The definition of a woman IS whoever identifies that way, and you just call any separate group (sports or anything else) the women's league.

Why are you intent on denying limiting the opportunities to trans women? Do you not understand that attitudes like yours - which label them as less than full women contribute to the incredibly high suicide rate of LGBT youth?

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #84)

Sun May 2, 2021, 08:19 PM

95. The more knots you tie yourself into with "those born as non Y genetics" to describe human beings

illustrates the ridiculousness of your argument.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #95)

Sun May 2, 2021, 09:38 PM

100. rope or twine


You could go down a rocky road there.
Trying to describe human beings from animals.

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #100)

Mon May 3, 2021, 09:24 AM

116. Human Beings ARE Animals.

We are mammals. We are primates. We are animals, every one of us.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #116)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:14 AM

124. From Others


Yes, you know what I mean though.

Categorize humans separate from the others.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #78)

Sun May 2, 2021, 08:32 PM

96. Yes

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #69)

Sun May 2, 2021, 04:00 PM

79. I don't think you are addressing my statement.It is a huge issue for individuals & their families...

...and it behooves us as Democrats to support them in whatever way they need.

It is a non-issue from the standpoint of numbers (tiny) and how these individuals affect the daily lives of others. High school sports? Really? Once again someone wants to literally inspect the genitals of girls. Public restrooms? Get serious — everybody is allowed to use the large uni-sex restrooms made available to the handicapped under the ADA since 1990.

Creating a huge controversy around transgender schoolchildren and writing new and draconian laws threatening to rip families apart and jail parents who support their children — is exactly what I would expect of the political party that makes believe gayness is contagious and that women who need Plan B are aborting fully formed perfect babies at 8 months. They have a thing about sex that would fill a library shelf of research into the sickness of their minds.

That is the issue, and it is huge.





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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:36 PM

64. I think that part of the issue is that the idea has an initial glean of 'truth' to it.

Or 'Truthiness' as Colbert labeled it. It instinctively feels true to many people. Afterall we do separate men and women, boys and girls into different visions and set different standards for them in almost all sports and physical activities.

While there is research that indicates there isn't a substantial advantage, it isn't wide spread or prolific, not enough to fight the instinctive response. And most folks don't know much about what the gender affirmation techniques do and don't change for that undergo them so perhaps time and better education is what's needed aside from mutual scorn. And more research. Maybe one day men and women won't be divided except possibly for very contact sports (like wrestling, though skill makes a big difference there too such as the female practically life long Judo practitioner that was blazing through high school wrestling ranks, rather easily besting her male, lesser trained/experienced opponents).

As for the physical issues, being an extremely body shy person. I would/am too shy to disrobe in front of other anatomical men, let alone an anatomical or partially anatomical woman. And I would imagine its that appearance that matters to many people, not what that person identifies as. One statement by some parents daughter that struck me was "We understand and believe in the freedom of choiceothers but why shouldn't the first time our daughter sees a penis be her choice?" Now not all locker rooms require full nudity or group showers, of course. As I understand many trans folks already change out in private or at home anyway as they have no desire to cause a disturbance or be stared at. And I've only heard of one incident of MtF transsexual sexual committing sexual assault and that was on their FtM partner at the time and not in a locker room or similar. I haven't read much on how the women and girl athletes feel on the issue, thought it wouldn't be a monolithic thing.

For me, the ideal solution would be to require that such facilitates provide some at least semi private change out/shower area for modest, uncomfortable or embarrassed folks regardless of their reason. But that would require money so perhaps grants or loans?

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:38 PM

65. When a 15 year old Caitlin Jenner wants to join the JV girls track team

this whole 'issue' might be interesting. Until that highly unlikely event any concern about the "fairness to the 'girls'" is baseless speculation meant to scare people into further marginalize trans children.

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Response to prodigitalson (Reply #65)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:46 PM

67. NOT TRUE

I'm not trying to 'scare' anybody.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:25 PM

104. You are right and wrong.

You're right that the right doesn't care about fairness in sports and is just weaponizing this issue. Of course they are. It's basically an own goal from Dems.

Because where you're wrong is that it is massively unfair to girls and women. Yes, even though only a few girls will lose spots on teams, or be hurt on the field or court, it's still unfair to them. People who don't spend 24/7 thinking about issues through a political lens know this intuitively.

This is going to cost us votes. It's barely getting started now. Most don't watch news and aren't even aware. But that will change. If republicans are lucky, or shrewd/clever enough, it'll be well timed to peak next spring/summer.

Happened to see this discussion last week on Twitter.

?s=19

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Response to redqueen (Reply #104)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:57 AM

106. What is the purpose of high school sports?

Why is this important?

I still haven't figured it out.

Personally I'd ban any high school sport that can't be played with mixed teams.

The only purpose I see for high school sports is to encourage active lifestyles and teamwork.

I truly didn't understand any sport until I started playing recreational softball in college on mixed teams. I also ran cross country with women and men.

Middle and high school had completely destroyed any interest I might have had in sports. I quit high school, and part of that was shit I suffered in the locker rooms.

Testosterone used to be important in militaristic societies. Big guys who can chop each other with swords. But these days people of any sex or sexuality can build nuclear weapons and steer them to their targets.

Sadly it's the testosterone poisoned fools who would be most likely to do that.

Oh yeah, fuck the Olympics too.

I will be happy to see that virulent and corrupt institution die. It only spreads the disease of nationalism.

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Response to hunter (Reply #106)

Mon May 3, 2021, 08:54 AM

110. Some people enjoy playing sports. Many get scholarships from high school sports.

I hated sports and avoided them at all costs. Regardless of anyone's personal opinions, most people have a basic sense of fairness.

The apolitical 'both sides' are awful' types - whether they're people who are actually impacted by this, or only potentially impacted - will be susceptible to the right wing messaging on this.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #110)

Mon May 3, 2021, 09:45 AM

120. College sports scholarships are fucked up too.

Don't get me started...

The only thing that high school sports should demonstrate is the kind of focus, outside of academics, required to succeed in college.

But it's the academics that ought to be the primary criteria for college admissions.

My own children, and many of my nieces and nephews, were academic superstars and excellent athletes who got scholarships to top tier universities. I know the game well.

Without researching the tweet you posted, I'd speculate the asshole coach who sends a guy out onto the women's field probably hates women and women's sports. Hah, hah. What a laugh.

But, as Mineral Man claims in the original post, there are so few trans kids playing in high school sports it's absurd this has become a national issue. These situations can be decided on a case by case basis in a thoughtful way without traumatizing trans children who already suffer enough as it is.

The Republican Party needs to die. They get off on torturing children.




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Response to hunter (Reply #120)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:01 AM

123. It's not absurd that it's a national issue

It was entirely predictable. This is an open goal gifted by us to the right.

Anyone who didn't see this coming is blinded by ideology.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #123)

Mon May 3, 2021, 11:57 AM

125. The Democratic Party needs to punch back hard.

The Republican Party is the party of child abuse.

They starve children, they put children in cages, they physically and mentally abuse children...






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Response to redqueen (Reply #110)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:25 PM

128. I think Republicans are worse

I also don't think Democrats are that great either and one of the reasons is they often launder right wing talking points and not just on this issue

MM wasn't that great on these issues when he first got here but he called it out for what it is in the OP. As far this I'll let the NCAA, Title IX, and attorneys sort this out but with the Democrats handling multiple different issues they find this one issue and they are largely playing a trick which people are falling for especially when they claim they are doing this for women.


If I was apolitical I would be a lot happier because ignorance is bliss.

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Response to hunter (Reply #106)

Mon May 3, 2021, 09:23 AM

115. If they are playing on high level, it could enable them to get an athletic scholarship to college.

Some will go on to play professionally.
And just because you weren't interested in sports while in school, doesn't mean other people are the same as you are.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #115)

Mon May 3, 2021, 09:51 AM

121. Professional sports is entertainment.

Just like acting. Most actors never make a full time career of it. Like many other sorts of artists, they have day jobs.

See also my reply to redqueen.



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Response to redqueen (Reply #104)

Mon May 3, 2021, 08:56 AM

111. It's much more likely, as discussed in the thread on Twitter, that there isn't a boys team to

play on, so he's playing on the girls team. That's what Title IX did; gave all kids more opportunities.

Because where you're wrong is that it is massively unfair to girls and women. Yes, even though only a few girls ill lose spots on teams, or be hurt on the field or court, it's still unfair to them.
Why is it unfair for girls to lose spots to other girls?

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #111)

Mon May 3, 2021, 09:01 AM

112. Because if some girls are born male, they have advantages

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Response to redqueen (Reply #112)

Mon May 3, 2021, 09:29 AM

117. They're assigned male at birth.

Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg? C'mon now.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #111)

Mon May 3, 2021, 09:20 AM

114. In case of a guy playing on girl's team, it doesn't appear he is transgender.

He is a male allowed to play on girl's team because they don't have a boy's team. So they are not losing to other girls in that particular case. They are losing to a team with a male player.
It's not fair because females aren't generally competitive against males. So a protected zone was created for females to be able to compete against other females, so they actually get a chance to be on a podium.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #114)

Mon May 3, 2021, 09:33 AM

118. But is it fair if a girl doesn't get to play because he's on the team?

It's not fair because females aren't generally competitive against males.
So is it fair that this guy is on a girls team? Is it fair to the girls on the other team if the team he's on beats them? I can't keep straight what y'all think is "fair" and what isn't.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #104)

Mon May 3, 2021, 09:33 AM

119. Interesting, but irrelevant to the topic.

Completely irrelevant. You are writing about something very different than I am.

Girls in some places participate in wrestling, in their weight class. That's because there are no girls' wrestling teams. People object to that, as well, as we have seen in past threads.

It looks like that boy is playing on a Lacrosse team because there is no boys' Lacrosse team. Title IX.

Girls play on boys' baseball teams, too. As girls. Because there are no baseball teams for girls.

This thread is about transgender athletes, not about people playing as cisgender males or females on teams normally made up of members of the opposite sex. That does sometimes take place, as well, but is a different issue.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #119)

Mon May 3, 2021, 10:58 AM

122. Like I said, people have an intuitive sense of fairness.

Once more lawsuits get started and even more examples are available for the GOP to start waving around like a flag, maybe people will start to realize their mistake.

The peer-reviewed studies should be enough, but 🤷

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:12 PM

127. Thye love easy targets

cause the unengaged followers can jump on the bandwagon like red meat.

Build the wall
lock her up
No trans kids in sports

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