What would you do?

[StarfishSaver]

Imagine you are a 13-year-old kid in a group of older people who are being chased by the police. You have a gun, but you don't want to use it and you don't want to get shot. You just want to go home. You're willing to be arrested and deal with the consequences if that means staying alive.

As you run, a cop yells for you to stop. You immediately stop. The cop then tells you to put up your hands.

What do you do?

[Phoenix61]

1. Throw the gun the second I see the cops.

Never had a gun but I’ve lost at least two really nice pipes.

[StarfishSaver]

2. That's what Adam did, just before he out up his hands

What would you have done after you dropped the gun?

Glad you didn't get shot by a cop who claimed he was justified because not only did your pipe look like a gun, you were doing drugs and, therefore, brought about your own death.

[Phoenix61]

3. Same thing. Raise my hands. nt

[StarfishSaver]

4. That's what Adam did. And got shot.

Was there anything he could have done differently at that point to avoid being killed by that cop?

[Phoenix61]

11. I honestly don't know.

My guess is the officer was expecting the worst based on the type of call and responded accordingly. We tend to see what we expect to see.

[StarfishSaver]

13. Or maybe he was expecting the worst because this kid was not white

Black and brown men get shot all the time regardless "the type of call." White men don't get shot on these "types of calls" nearly as frequently. Black and brown people get shot in traffic stops, in their apartments, while they're sleeping, while they're walking down the street minding their own business.

The "type of call" isn't the common denominator in these killings. The race of the victim is.

[Phoenix61]

14. He didn't know the age or race when he got the call.

Maybe assumptions based on the address.

[magicarpet]

6. That's bananas and oranges,...

You can't compare a misplaced bong to a Glock.

[Phoenix61]

7. I wasn't. I'm just saying if you're holding something

you shouldn’t have tossing it when the cops show up is not a bad plan.

[magicarpet]

9. Justkiddingwithya...

[Omnipresent]

5. Cooperate with police, and put your hands up.

Never give a cop an opening, to harm or kill you.
Never resist arrest and try to flee, (regardless of race) you could be shot intentionally or accidentally.

[uponit7771]

8. the kid did that and was killed

[StarfishSaver]

10. That's exactly what Adam did.

He stopped running, dropped the gun and put his hands in the air immediately upon being ordered to do so. He cooperated.

And he was immediately shot to death when he did.

So much for your instructions on how to avoid being shot.

[Phoenix61]

15. If you the answers why are you asking any questions?

If you want to make a point just make it.

[StarfishSaver]

16. I'm asking the question so that people who insist that Adam did the wrong thing and if he had done

something differently, he'd still be alive will have to walk through the scenario to see that their assumption is probably not correct.

Yes, I can tell you that myself. But it is much more effective if you figure it out yourself.

I'm asking you to tell me exactly what he should have done differently in that moment that would have resulted in him walking out of there alive. So far, no one has been able to tell me since it seems that he did everything he was supposed to do - and everything that apologists for police killings usually insist Black and Brown men should do in order not to get shot.

But if you cannot say what he could have done differently in that moment that would have resulted in a different outcome, you must acknowledge that the shooting was not his fault. It is all on the cop who shot an unarmed child after he had surrendered.

[Phoenix61]

18. I don't think there is one single person on this

site who believes that child did anything wrong. You’re preaching to the choir.

[StarfishSaver]

22. You should pay closer attention

[Ms. Toad]

20. Only one thing I can think of -

Rather than toss the gun over the fence (where it is out of sight - and potentially still a threat), toss it on the ground in a visible location.

This is a life-saving suggestion, not a criticism of anything the child did or justification for the shooting. Just suggesting that if the threat (gun) remains in sight but inaccessible, it is crystal clear the child is unarmed and a trigger-happy LEO might be less likely to use the no longer visible gun as an excuse to pull the trigger.

[StarfishSaver]

23. True... But that would require some pretty sophisticated thinking by a 13-year-old chikd

in the most stressful moment of his life.

[Ms. Toad]

25. Absolutely -

But as a woman (and rape survivor) I regularly go through thought exercises (and sometimes actual practice) for what I might do in situations that put my safety at risk. Thinking ahead makes it more likely I will be able to carry out a plan to survive (and survive without being raped).

From my conversations with parents of black children (especially male), it is unfortunately necessary to do the same. Don't look white folks in the eye because they may feel threatened, put your hands on the steering wheel at 10 and 2 and don't move without express permission, be polite even when you know darn well the stop was pretextual, cross to the other side of the street to avoid the appearance you are following a woman, etc.

Just one more thought to add to the overflowing pile of living while black "rules" that might make it more likely for you to come out of the sitation alive.

Nothing I have seen or heard justfies the shooting.

[Omnipresent]

35. Well, throw my advice away because of what that one cop did.

Usually it works.

[StarfishSaver]

36. It usually works for white people

Black and Brown people only wish this was an isolated situation of "what that one cop did."

Unfortunately, what you think "usually works" doesn't always work for non-white people, despite all those who insist on second-guessing what the dead victim "should have done" and blame them for their own deaths when they "didn't comply."

[Nevilledog]

12. Cop was also using a strobe

[Phoenix61]

17. That's very interesting.

I remember strobes at the skating rink and parties and how fun they were because they make everything look different. I can’t imagine using one in a situation where I need to make a spilt second decision based on what I see.

[Hoyt]

19. Agree with what you are getting at. Agree this kid should not have been shot. But

apparently he did have a gun right up until he threw it down and put up his hands.

In a perfect world, the police would have handcuffed him and let the courts decide what's next. In this world, the policeman was running after a kid with a gun (as I understand it), the flashlights were bobbing up and down, and in a split second the kid turned around.

We just had a similar occurrence in Atlanta. Four or so Black police officers were begging a man to put down a knife. One even yelled, "Please sir, please put down your knife, I'm a Black man and I don't want to shoot you." Unfortunately, he didn't put it down. We can argue whether they should have just let the guy go, corralled him and called a psychologist, etc., but I really don't think this was a racial killing (although I'd agree there are lots of racists aspects of our society that are ultimately responsible for a high percentage of these things).

Back to the original question. If the young man had time to think about it, he would have thrown the gun down so the policeman could see it, continue running a few more feet, then stopped -- without turning around -- and put his hands up. I believe if he had done that, he'd still be alive. But, neither he or police had the time to think it through.

Maybe some day, there will be a tool like this that will wrap around someone's arms --

[SoonerPride]

21. If he were white he would still be alive

That’s a lot shorter post than yours and truer too.

[Hoyt]

24. Honestly, not so sure. While Blacks get shot proportionately greater than whites. Whites do get shot

A long-time friend of mine's son was chased by police at a road block. I'm sure he had been drinking. In any event, the police pulled up after the turned his truck on its side. The son was reaching for his glovebox. They shot him multiple times. No gun was found, but he was killed anyway.

And no, that is not just one anecdotal example because about twice as many whites were shot than another race in past few years:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/


Before you rip off a response, I agree 100% that proportionately to percentage of the population, more Blacks are killed than whites and something needs to be done about it now, not later. The damn police need to held accountable and this stuff needs to stop.

But Whites do get shot. In fact, I'd like to see more armed rubes shot.

[StarfishSaver]

26. The fact that he may have had a gun became irrelevant the second a cop ordered him for his hands up

and he complied.

The entire point of ordering something to put their hands up is to make sure they don't have a gun and that, if they do, it does not pose any immediate danger to the officer because it is pointed fall above him.

Arguing that he had his gun before putting his hands up is a distraction. It doesn't matter whether he had a gun or a knife or a nuclear warhead. When the cop ordered him to put his hands up and he did, the situation shifted to new ground and he was was no longer entitled to shoot him because he thought he had previously had a gun. He has a duty to reassess the circumstances in real time to determine the level and nature of the threat in that moment, not in moments before.

[Hoyt]

27. Sorry, someone with a gun -- white or not -- is a threat until you have them handcuffed.

Again, I think -- while sitting safely in my recliner -- that the policeman should not have shot him.

But the formerly armed kid (who they did not know was 13 years old) whirled around and the running policeman fired.

Yes, from my recliner, I think he didn't have to shoot at that moment. But, I'd have a hard time convicting him within standards of "reasonable doubt" unless prosecution offers evidence from social media, past disciplinary records, friends, etc., that he was a hothead, racist, etc. That would change my vote.

I do think prosecutors should take a hard look at this shooting -- without the police unions that always support police -- to see if charges should be filed.

[StarfishSaver]

28. Bullshit

Every single person a cop engages with during his shift is a potential threat of they are not in handcuffs. That doesn't mean the cop gets to shoot them as long as they are not fully within his control.

When a cop orders a person to put up their hands and they do, they shouldn't shoot them, even if they "whirled around," - especially of they "whirl around" with their HANDS IN THE AIR.

If the cop thought the kid "whirling around" somehow put him in danger, he should have ordered him to put his hands in the air and not turn around. Any rational human is very likely to turn around to see who is behind them and what they're doing when they put their hands in the air, so his "whirling around" is perfectly logical and predictable.

As you sit in your recliner refusing to judge the cop, you are very comfortable judging the kid by going out of your way to give the cop who shot a surrendering child the benefit of the doubt.

[Hoyt]

29. Don't know what else I can say but 4th time, "I don't think the kid should have been shot" and

prosecutors should look at the case.

But, I'm not going to convict every policeman/woman -- who just knows a man shot at cars and is running down an alley with a gun until he throws it aside (unseen) a few seconds before whirling around -- who has to make a split decision just because I don't like the outcome. I'll leave that up to prosecutors.

You are free convict him, and I'm sorry we disagree.

[Kaleva]

30. Can't really answer a question about something that would never happen.

[MichMan]

31. Well, I wouldn't be out running the streets at 2am with a gun on a school night

[StarfishSaver]

32. "Running the streets at 2am with a gun on a school night" is not a capital crime deserving summary

extrajudicial execution.

But I'll play along.

Assume my hypothetical takes place at 7 pm on a Saturday night.

Now, what would you do in that situation?

[MichMan]

33. You asked what I would do personally in a given situation and I answered

As a 60 yr old white male, it is difficult to answer what I would do as a 13 year old street gang member walking around in the streets at 2AM shooting at passing cars with a gun. I have never owned a gun, nor would I have been roaming the streets at 2AM on a school night. 100% certain, I would not have been firing shots at passing motorists

As a 13 year old, I personally would have been in bed sleeping, as I would have been getting up for school in 5 hours.

You didn't agree with my answer. I can't help that.

[MichMan]

37. You know nothing about my circumstances, do you ?

Doubt you know very much about Adam Toledo's either

Should he have been killed? Of course not.

Is it acceptable for a 13 yr old teenager to be out running the streets at 2AM on a school night and shooting at passing cars with a gun? It is not.

One can believe that both of those things are true

[StarfishSaver]

38. "Acceptable to be out at 2 am"

Nothing that happened that night had anything to do with the hour it occurred. It could just as easily happened at 7 pm.

Using the fact that he was out at night as some kind of a justification, excuse or amelioration of his killing is blaming the victim for the unacceptable behavior of the police officer - and is no different than blaming a woman for being raped because she shouldn't have been out by herself so late or shouldn't have been wearing those tight pants.

The bottom line is that in the moment the shooting occurred, the officer ordered the boy to out up his hands. He did as ordered, thereby exhibiting the universal gesture of surrender. And the cop shot him with his hands in the air.

It didn't matter if this happened at 2:30 in the morning or 2:30 in the afternoon. It didn't matter if the kid has done something or many things terribly wrong in his life or two minutes before. None of those things justified him to be summarily executed in the street. He couldn't undo anything he had done previously but in that moment he was doing exactly what he was told.

No, I don't know much about his life. That's why I don't claim that the fact that he was out in the wee hours of the night somehow means he deserved to be shot dead in the street by a trigger-happy cop who shot a child less than one second after he ordered him to put his hands up and he did.

I'm sick of black children - even misguided ones - being treated like dangerous criminals and accorded the ultimate penalty without thought or hesitation. I'm tired of black children being shot down by cops who, without taking even a few seconds to assess the situation, kill them n cold blood, whether they're in an alley with their hands up or in a park playing with a toy gun - especially when white men and boys who brandish weapons, assault individuals and commit murder are treated like confused youngsters deserving of understanding and compassion and usually make it out quite alive.

So, whether you think it's "acceptable" that he was out at 2:00 a.m., the fact that you believe that is relevant to whether or not he should have been shot dead because he did something you don't think is appropriate deserves to be called out.