Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg says taxing drivers by the mile "shows a lot of promise"...

[demmiblue]

Link to tweet

[Dream Girl]

1. How would 5his work?

[frazzled]

6. Dashboard tracker

via GPS. This is not going to be popular.

I see what the problem is: as cars become more efficient and hybrid and electric vehicles more pervasive, revenues from gas taxes go way down, and then funds for infrastructure upkeep are insufficient. This shift will have to happen some time, but this is probably not the time.

[Blue_true]

32. It is already done in states like Florida and Massachusetts (I have friends and business there).

Believe it or not, people get used to it, if the fees are fair and the money used properly.

[csziggy]

48. Only if you live in areas with toll roads

I live outside Tallahassee, Florida, and I have never heard of taxing by mileage here. Up here we have no toll roads, though the legislature is trying to push some through no matter how unneeded they are or how much damage might be done to the environment.

[Blue_true]

56. Maybe toll roads will get some of the red people around you voting against

republicans. As things are, the central and southern part of the state carry the road tax load (gas higher and we have toll roads).

I am afraid that toll roads are going to become common, with the advent of electric vehicles. The states and FEDs will need to recoup lost gas taxes.

[csziggy]

58. Well, Leon County is a very blue area in the midst of a sea

And the environmentalists here will fight tooth and nail to stop the big toll roads from going through some of the rather pristine areas.

Now if the RepuQs that the rest of Florida keep sending here to Tallahassee turn against the toll roads that would make them have to pay more to do their jobs here, that would be good. The really red parts of the Panhandle will not be affected since none of those roads will go west of Tallahassee.

[Blue_true]

62. Don't you mean "East" of Tallahassee?

I favor a system where rural people help pay for the roads that they use. Right now, they are getting a largely free ride courtesy of people in the more urbanized parts of the state.

[csziggy]

67. No - one of the toll roads being talked about would closely follow the US 19 route

Which comes north with US 19 and US 27, then turns towards Georgia in Jefferson County just to our east. That's the toll road that is most upsetting to the environmentalists up here since the Aucilla River valley is very ecologically unique and pretty well undisturbed.

I know the 19/98/27 road pretty good as it is - when we'd go to Bartow (south of Lakeland) to see my parents, we'd take that and follow 98 to Bartow. That road is no where near as busy as I-10 and I-75 and even with the small towns we'd make as good time on it without fighting the crowding at 70-80 mph.

Now, from Perry south, a toll road might be more popular rather than less and that is the deep red armpit of Florida.

[crimycarny]

52. But not every state is the same

In some states mass transit might be a more viable option, or affordable housing may be closer to places of work, etc. I just don’t think this is a good idea as it will punish those who have no or very little choice but to drive far (and usually if you have no choice it’s due to financial reasons).

It would make sense if there was a great mass transit system in place because it would provide an incentive for people to make use of it. The gas tax can still disproportionately hurt lower income BUT it provides incentive for everyone to move to fuel efficient vehicles, so at least there is some benefit.

I just don’t think this is a good idea without providing an affordable alternative such as mass transit. We aren’t there yet.

[Blue_true]

59. The current system is grossly unfair to poor urban people.

I states like New York, California, Massachusetts that have urban mass transit systems and toll roads around cities, urban residents pay for public road construction and upkeep all over the state with high mass transit ticket prices and toll road prices. Go going to statewide toll roads actually would bring about transportation equality between urban and rural residents.

I did a test once when in New York City with some free time. I purchased a $20 pass and road the freeway something like four times on one of the routes. When I was done, the pass had like $5 left on it. So an urban poor person who rides the subway 5-6 times per week minimum is likely shelling out a good sum per week, meanwhile rural people get free roads that are paid for with some of that urban poor person’s transit fees.

[crimycarny]

64. "In states like..."

That’s exactly my point, not all states are the same.

[Blue_true]

66. Any state that charge a gas tax is hitting urban residents harder in most

cases. All states charge gas taxes. Urban residents simply pay for things that rural residents view as free. I live in an area where the local government is being sued for charging urban people a fee, the proceeds from the fee is used to support protection services in unincorporated and more rural areas and doesn’t help the urban people that are paying it.

[whistler162]

88. Cheaper than gas and car usage

https://new.mta.info/fares

"Cost: $33 (7-day) or $127 (30-day).

You have unlimited swipes on the subway and local buses for either 7 or 30 days.

Your MetroCard can only hold one Unlimited Ride refill at a time. You can’t pause an unlimited ride card once you’ve started using it.

You can combine time and value on the same MetroCard. Time will always be used first. Value will become available the time on your card runs out. PATH, AirTrain, and Express buses will always deduct from the value on your card."

[krispos42]

13. I imagine it would replace the gas tax with a mileage tax

Which makes sense, considering we're transitioning to a nearly-all-electric car economy.

The fewer cars that buy gas, the fewer taxes are collected for highway infrastructure. A 3,000 pound car causes wear and tear on the road regardless of the method of propulsion, but all-electric cars don't buy the fuel that funds the highways.

I guess the best way to do this would be to base the rate on the vehicle weight (perhaps in 250-pound increments). Then instead of getting your emissions done once every couple of years you'd get your odometer read and pay your highway tax.

In Connecticut I pay 35.75 cents per gallon in federal and state taxes.

I drive about 15,000 miles a year and probably average about 27 mpg. So that's not quite $200 a year, or about 1.32 cents per mile.

My car, a Ford Focus, weighs about 3,100 pounds empty. So if we used 250-pound brackets as the method, my car would be in the 13th bracket (3,000 to 3,250). Make each bracket be about .100 cents per mile. Or 100 millicents.

If you want to drive a 5800-pound Range Rover, well, that's the 24th bracket, so 2.400 cents per mile.

If you want to zip around on an electric motorcyle that weighs 600 pounds, well, you're in the 3rd bracket, so thats .300 cents per mile.

Just spitballing here.

[Dream Girl]

28. Thanks for the explanation. I never thought about the move to electric cars and lower gas tax

Revenues

[krispos42]

31. No problem. The issue was first discusses here when hybrids became popular

With the Prius getting abnodrmally high mileage for its weight, it was noted that they weren't fully paying for the wear and tear they were causing.

[Blue_true]

34. I like your idea about making the rate per mile weight dependent.

Even in states that charge drivers by the mile, only truckers have to pull into weight stations. Cars and non-trucker vehicles could drive onto a scale while moving through a fee station, at the exit, their charge for the miles driven would automatically be calculated.

Your method would make the process fair. A person driving a Hummer should pay more per mile than a person driving a Prius, because the Hummer does far more damage to the pavement and overpasses.

[krispos42]

36. I don't think we even have to go that far.

Just use the curb weight of the vehicle, at least for passenger vehicles. Most times the weight of the driver and whatever stuff is in the car is about 10% of the curb weight.

Just build it into the fee structure. Most people drive their cars solo anyway.

Commercial vehicles get more complicated, I guess. Like a plumber's van. It may weigh 5,000 pounds empty, but you know they routinely keep a couple of thousand pounds of tools, pipes, and fittings in there all times.

I guess they could have a higher millicent rate to take that into account.

And trucks should use weight stations far more often.

[Blue_true]

41. Weight stations can be built directly in the road at toll stations.

The weight of a car automatically gets measured and that is taken into account on the mileage ticket, or the tele-pay devices. It is very simple, food, medicine, chemical, consumer products companies already use the technology. The scales can automatically be calibrated, so there is no downtime unless they break.

[krispos42]

43. This presumes tolls. Boo, hiss, throw tomatoes.

Tolls suck, don't like them.

[Blue_true]

46. They are a fact of life in some parts of Florida.

Most people use the tele devices that they load money to, you don’t even need to stop (just slow down a little).

[Hortensis]

75. Don't see it for cars and small work vehicles with known base weights.

Even if it were practical and didn't get the electorate in droves to the polls to end it , penalizing drivers for carrying passengers might be counterproductive. And those who drive for work will have special exemptions. Our son's business takes him far and wide.

Freight vehicles seems obvious, though. We already weigh those on highways for safety reasons.

[Red Mountain]

55. License plate fees are structured by weight

for 'weighted' vehicles in NC.

I pay a couple of hundred extra bucks per year to cover whatever I might be hauling.

Rarely, if ever, get close. I view it as insurance against a ticket.

A fee structure is easy. Enforcement on the general public is likely to generate an enormous backlash unless handled properly.



The bigger problem is our transition to fees for EVERYTHING. The little guy can't easily afford another small tax. Death of a thousand cuts.

[Hortensis]

76. Lots of little guys for some years will be in an older-car hard place,

and we'll need exemptions based on income, and perhaps subsidies for purchases. Until affordably used newer-tech vehicles become available.

Leasing or even buying one of those would have been very doable when we were both working, I even shopped for one once, but is out of the question now that we're retired on mostly fixed income. We're currently driving a car that's even older than us in car years.

[Hortensis]

74. Yes, and thanks for the spitballing. Tackling big problems with

progressive government systems of incentives and disincentives is what we're talking about here.

[Blue_true]

30. You enter at a station, get a pass, the pass is checked at your exit station.

It is commonly done in Florida (the Turnpike and on some major highways around cities like Orlando) and in some other states.

[Horse with no Name]

2. I wonder if he is aware that a large number

Of healthcare workers commute from rural to urban? At one time, I drove 6 hours round trip a day to my job.

[ChazII]

33. When my son was on palliative care

everyone who came to the house drove their own vehicle and the same when he was on hospice care.

[Blue_true]

35. In Florida, anyone that uses certain roads pay a mileage fee.

People chose to live where they live, for various reasons, that choice comes with a price.

When I have to do business between my home and Orlando, I have to pay the Turnpike fee. I could take “free” roads, but those take much longer.

[Mariana]

44. So currently, they pay more in gasoline taxes than those with shorter commutes

unless they have electric or hybrid cars, of course. How is this different?

[Hortensis]

77. Hmm. With some jobs driving is built into the work itself, inseparable

from it, and those will have exemptions from the usual. How the reality you refer to would be handled and not I can't guess; methods and efficacy might vary as widely as the realities of the individuals.

I am sure, though, that all factors related to living far from work have been studied intensively, including percentages in various population areas who can and can't afford to move closer to work. Basic stuff in trying to figure out what social engineering approaches will work and how much, and how and why they might fail.

[Ferrets are Cool]

3. So would not spending so much on fucking things that kill people

[crimycarny]

4. Love Pete but I don't agree with this

It would seem to me that this bill would hurt the middle class and poor the most. The super rich seem unlikely to be long range commuters, or even typical commuters, that would seem to me to be the middle class or lower income.

Unless he can explain how this wouldn’t disproportionately effect those with middle/lower incomes who are likely to have to travel more to and from work, I’m a big “no”.

[questionseverything]

7. We already pay a tax per gallon of fuel

This would be a double whammy for the working poor and middle class

[Blue_true]

37. Florida and other states already charge a mileage fee on some roads.

That is on top of the gas tax.

People have a choice, they can take other roads and take longer and risk tickets, or they can pay the mileage fee and arrive at their destination sooner.

[questionseverything]

45. Florida takes pride in being a regressive state

They are not the ones to imitate

[Blue_true]

49. I agree with you about my home state being a primitive assed place in a lot of regards.

But as more electric vehicles hit the roads, it may for once be ahead of the curve on how to deal with that coming issue.

[TheBlackAdder]

39. And the gas tax hits those with less fuel-efficient cars and trucks the most, promoting efficiency.

[krispos42]

14. Well, it already does

Gas taxes are regressive, not progressive.

If this replaces gas taxes with a mileage tax, then we'd still be getting the same tax money but electric cars wouldn't be dodging it.

[MichMan]

63. You really think the gas tax will go away?

This will be additional

[krispos42]

65. Well, at some point there will be so few gas burners they'll stop bothering

Maybe by 2060

[MichMan]

89. Will Buttigieg be Transportation director then? They are discussing doing this now.

[Hortensis]

82. Sure. Without adjustments to ease the burden, EVERYTHING hurts

the poorer more, the more poor the more. It's not all some callous uncaring plot by "elites." Less of what's desirable and more of what is not is intrinsic to living on lower incomes in virtually every way imaginable.

Plans are to tackle income inequality itself; but it will always exist, and in order to do what we must adjustments to make it work for people in general will be necessary.

The progressive liberal Democrats who are doing this will make adjustments.

Inevitably, they will work for many, be inadequate for many, and fail some entirely, even while new or underestimated problems become apparent, keeping social activists occupied.

Progress.

[Wounded Bear]

5. Gonna need something as gas usage falls...nt

[dsc]

8. I would likely be a pretty decent net loser under that system

Pre Covid and one hopes post Covid I drove between 15k and 20k a year. That is well above average. I don't think all the funding should come from taxes such as this and the gas tax. I also think there should be a cap at a certain percent of income for this tax, but I fail to see why I shouldn't pay more for road upkeep than a person who only drives 5k a year or no miles a year. The gas tax is declining as a revenue source as the mileage of cars overall has gone up over time. This seem like a reasonable way to have people who use the roads a lot pay more for their upkeep.

[hunter]

9. Realistically, we'll need to tax cars by the mile as electric cars become more common.

Nevertheless, carbon fuels should be taxed at an additional, higher rate.

[krispos42]

15. Keep the gas tax, but at a lower rate.

So a gas-powered car is paying by the mile and by the gallon, while an electric car is just paying by the mile.

See my other post in this thread.

[Beastly Boy]

10. If the tax is linked to smart highways with electric charging stations, it's a win/win for everyone.

His idea doesn't sound too promising on the face of it, but I think Secretary Pete is onto something. The devil is in the detail.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. Yes, punishing rural people is a great idea.

[dsc]

18. actually since they are net voters for the other party

yes it is a great idea at least politically.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. Punishing people based on voting patterns is also a shitty idea.

[dsc]

29. why someone has to pay taxes

why not people who don't vote for us under any circumstances? We just got done punishing people who vote for us when we capped the stimulus checks at 80k for single people. Maybe if we had written the ACA in a way that helped our constituents more and places like KY less 2010 would have been less of a blood bath.

[questionseverything]

42. The 1 percent need to fund the bulk of everything

Because they have the money

The one percent love it when urban voters and rural voters are pitted against each other

[Grins]

20. It's just a use tax that Republicans love.

Pay for what you use. Drive a lot, pay more; drive little, pay less.

Those who drive more do more damage to roads or require more resources, so you should pay more than the driver who does not. It’s actually equitable.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

27. That's...not what equity means.

[Captain Zero]

22. Big Government tracking your travel?! Yeah. Right.

That's the first meme the Right Wing will roll out tomorrow morning.

[dawg]

86. As a rural person, I don't think I drive as much ...

as a person living in the suburbs. It's a much shorter commute from my house in the "sticks" to my office in "town" than it would be commuting to downtown Atlanta from someplace like Alpharetta or Johns Creek.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

12. I love you Pete,

but no way. We don't have helicopters and planes like the wealthy. Why don't we reverse trickle down economics to trickle up economics and start taxing the wealthy, the same way we were taxed. Let's impose a 50-74% estate tax on the top 1%. The top 1% should not be able to "give away" their wealth (socialism) to their children and heirs. Let their children and heirs earn their keep, we want the brightest and the best running the country, education and business. We do not want some silver spoon rich kids, who have to pay a third party to take their SAT's, etc., to run anything in this country.

[krispos42]

16. He's the Secretary of Transportion. Estate taxes are out of his bailiwick.

You're right, but it's not his department. Literally.

On the plus side the rich tend to buy more expensive vehicles, and more frequently, so they do pay more in property taxes and such. But that's a state and local issue.

[Grins]

21. He's the Secretary of Transportation and it's exactly under his authority.

He said nothing about the estate tax.

He wants a use-tax on the miles people (and corporations) drive to PAY for TRANSPORTATION costs.

[krispos42]

23. I was responding to Mary from SC

She(?) talks about the estate tax and stuff.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

68. I know

I know he has nothing to do with Estate Taxes, but I am offering up an alternative. Let Estate Taxes pay for infrastructure, not a "Use Tax".

[Klaralven]

17. Just install more EZ Pass wickets and license plate readers.

Besides, on highways you mostly need to tax truckers, since they cause most of the maintenance costs. Even a two ton SUV causes a lot less road wear than a 30 ton 18-wheeler.

[frazzled]

57. Because it's not just about tollways or even highways

It’s city driving, going to the mall, back roads, total mileage. It means tracking every mile you drive, anywhere.

[Klaralven]

70. How are they going to track every mile people drive?

How would the taxes be collected?

How would it be enforced in a way that people couldn't cheat and game the system?

[IbogaProject]

19. Boo

The only taxes should be National Income & National Property taxes, along w some corporate ones at National level. Progressive taxes are the only way to fairness.

[Deb]

24. How do I explain this to poor families already choosing between food in the house or gas to get it?

It happens every day. I can promise you that.

[gulliver]

26. I hope we're not thinking we need as much "road infrastructure" as pre-COVID

WFH is the only way to go for all jobs that allow it. If things had always been like they are now with WFH but there were no roads, would we all be clamoring for them to be built so we could buy cars to drive to work every day?

[SoCal Roomba]

38. This is fine for electrics. Gas, not so much.

I’m already paying a gas tax, and as we know taxes never disappear. This would just be an additional tax.

Electric cars will require some form of revenue generation. They still use the roads, etc. Pete needs to explain what he’s talking about here a little better if he wants to sell this form of revenue generation.

[Happy Hoosier]

40. Use taxes are regressive.

Use taxes hit working people the hardest. Don‘t fall for this. Fund infrastructure from the general fund.

[CoopersDad]

47. Here in the Silicon Valley Central Coast, it would punish the poor

because the poor can't afford to live where they work and have to drive an hour or two each way to have (un)affordable housing.

Tech bros are against public transit because self-driving cars so we're screwn no matter what.

There needs to be a low income exception made to Pete's ideas here.

[hurl]

50. I'm open to his ideas

It will appeal to some conservatives who tout paying proportionally to usage.

One of my cars is electric, and I recognize that, when I drive that car, I'm bypassing gasoline taxes that have traditionally funded automobile infrastructure here. There's a legitimate issue to address.

D legislators in my state are proposing a $100 extra fee for electric vehicle registrations because that is roughly equivalent to the average taxes gasoline-powered vehicle drivers pay annually by purchasing fuel. I'm fine with this approach, but I would be open to mileage taxes depending on the details.

[PrinceHakeem]

51. That would not be good policy. At all

[ripcord]

53. I really don''t like the idea of the government requiring a gps in cars

I have no problem with the current administration but what if this had been in place under Trump, think of how he could have abused it.

[Demsrule86]

54. This is a regressive tax...just like gasoline tax...get rid of it and fund the roads with

a proper tax at the state or federal level...I can't imagine why Pete thinks it is a good idea. I see it as a ticket to the minority too.

[csziggy]

60. One of the proposals a while back was to tax tires

That would be effectively by the mile - and would have the advantage that trailers would also bear some of the cost of the wear and tear on our roads.

For instance, I pay gasoline taxes for what I put in my truck, but my truck gets about the same abysmal mileage whether it is empty or hauling my trailer with a full load. So even though the trailer also wears down the roads, it basically gets a free ride. If the tires on both the truck and trailer had a road tax added, it would be evened out.

Tires are rated by the weight that the vehicle (or whatever they go on) is expected to carry, for cars, the vehicle plus expected passengers, for trucks and trailers, whether they are light or heavy duty. So when I go buy a set of tires for my truck and/or trailer, I would pay an higher tax than I would for the tires for my little Honda Fit that doesn't weigh much or carry much, while my husband would pay more for his Prius V tires since it is a larger vehicle

People would notice a tire tax less than they would a separate mileage charge, so it might be easier to put into effect.

[Tribetime]

61. I don't get it most of my driving is to and from jobs I work for myself as a service plumber

So now I'm supposed to get tax and everywhere I drive to at work when I used to be able to write it off

[I_UndergroundPanther]

69. People that do ubers

Or other gig driving jobs will get screwed with a milage tax.

They don't get paid well to begin with and thier cars take a beating.

[Vinca]

71. Not a good idea. Too many people need to drive multiple times a day to multiple jobs.

What's wrong with taxing the rich people on this one? After all, their wealth is - in many cases - a result of the moving of goods from one place to the other over highways, on railroads and online. People of modest means have had it with carrying the full load.

[boston bean]

72. Politically, this idea and utterance of it fucking sucks rotten eggs.

My god, do we want to hand them 2022 on a silver platter.

[BGBD]

73. It would have

To be done at the same time as a repeal of gas taxes.


It's also unenforceable. People won't get trackers put on their cars and red state govs won't have their highway patrols ticket it. They'll call themselves sanctuary states.

[Hugin]

78. It's regressive to poor rural people who live in large states.

They need those bridges as much as the urban dwellers.

[area51]

79. Strongly disagree, it's a bad idea. n/t

[marmar]

80. He's probably right, but this will be as popular with the masses as a root canal.

[leftyladyfrommo]

81. Really hurt people like me who have to drive .

I am a pet sitter and I have to drive to people's houses.

[ecstatic]

83. This shouldn't be repeated out loud. Go back to the drawing board

Can we please come up with better ways to get our messaging and agenda through? Ways that won't cause us to lose big time in 2022 and 2024?

[Tree Lady]

84. Its going to hurt people who commute far

To live in a cheaper area because they are already hurting financially.

I am retired hardly drive now so won't matter to us.

[dawg]

85. I think this is a bad idea.

We want to reward - not punish - people who make efficient choices. A mile driven in a Prius is not the same as a mile driven in an F-250 SuperCab that's rolling coal.

If we need more money for infrastructure once gas usage begins to slip, just raise the income tax enough to compensate.

[Autumn]

87. Dumb idea. Tax the fucking rich, not the poor and the working class.