A push back to those DUers who are comfortable making blanket condemnations of Christianity.

[LAS14]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by DonViejo (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Progressive Christians Arise! Hallelujah!

By Nicholas Kristof

Young and middle-aged Americans could be forgiven for thinking that Jesus was a social conservative who denounced gay people and harangued the poor to lift themselves up by the bootstraps, until he was crucified for demanding corporate tax cuts.

That perception might arise because since the 1980s, the most visible Christians have been conservative evangelicals who often emphasize issues that Jesus never explicitly mentioned, such as abortion and homosexuality. But now more progressive Christians are moving onto center stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/20/opinion/sunday/progressive-christians-politics.html

tia
las

[Hugh_Lebowski]

1. Personally, my blanket condemnations are directed at the idea of believing supernatural things ...

Are real.

Cause they aren't.

Ever.

Religion is just one of a great many supernaturally-based ideas that I regularly deride as nonsense

[malaise]

18. THIS n/t

[johnnyplankton]

23. Yeah, that Martin Luther King sure was a dope

It's this kind of crap that keeps people thinking of progressives as elites. Just because I'm not religious doesn't give me the right to shit on other people....

[LAS14]

25. Good point. nt

[Sibelius Fan]

32. Compartmentalization coupled with upbringing and an indoctrinated sense of guilt.

Happens to the best of us.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

34. I didn't shit on anyone

I said supernatural 'stuff' ... is bunk.

[11 Bravo]

71. So MLK wasn't a dope, he was just easily duped?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

77. Your implied Argument From Authority is fallacious (nt)

[Goodheart]

94. So, Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein, and Carl Sagan were all dopes?

Your appeal to an inappropriate authority is ridiculous.

Was MLK a dope? Of course not. Was he duped? He sure was... just like other hundreds of millions.

[uponit7771]

57. +1

[Mariana]

69. Who created the conditions that Dr. King worked to change?

It was religious people (particularly Christians) who perpetrated slavery in the United States, and later mandated racial segregation, and who institutionalized racial discrimination in every aspect of life.

Why hold Dr. King up as an example, and not those other Christians?

[Goodheart]

91. You were born with the right to an opinion.

"Shit on other people"?

What do you mean by that? Are Christian beliefs immune from opinion?

[Goodheart]

92. Martin Luther King was not perfect.

[Kaleva]

148. Christianity makes that clear. Humans are flawed.

[Goodheart]

158. LOL. We don't need Christianity to know that humans are flawed.

Besides that, Christianity goes well beyond that, right? The idea that we were born guilty is repugnant.

[Sibelius Fan]

29. Yep

[Demsrule86]

33. That is your opinion. I am a Christian and get annoyed with such what I consider arrogance.

You needn't believe, but you have no right to object if others do.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

37. I don't really 'object that other's believe'

My stance is that the supernatural is not real, I will argue that point with regards to anything whether it's belief in an afterlife, reincarnation, heaven, hell, devils, magical creators of the universe, witches, ghosts, angels, spirits, 'energy' (outside of the known confines of measurable forces thereof), crystals, pyramids, faith healing, ESP, psychic powers, remote viewing, the parting of seas by the force of one's mind, walking on water, etc etc etc.

It just happens that most religions have a huge supernatural component to them.

That's the part I argue against and proclaim to be nonsense.

But I don't 'object' to others believing, unless their beliefs infringe upon me or others.

[Mariana]

56. "My stance is that the supernatural is not real."

Apparently, even saying this is offensive to some, and will be taken as a personal attack upon them.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

59. Everyone who is religious has to reckon with the fact that vast majority of the planet ... disagrees

with their beliefs.

Whether it's 'other religions' or science-y types like me.

They tend to find a way forward despite the rest of the world's opinions

[Goodheart]

96. A primary reason the planet is so fucked up.

[USALiberal]

52. You have the right, just like anti-vaxers and climate deniers! nt

[Demsrule86]

101. Hardly the same thing...two are based on denying science the other is based on Faith...and frankly

you don't get to determine what 'rights' I have thankfully.

[USALiberal]

120. Make believe is fun! Nt

[Goodheart]

95. He/she most certainly DOES have that right.

He/she doesn't have the right to forbid you, but he/she certainly has the right to object.

I shudder to think how many people if born in a previous time would have been okay with burning people at the stake for heresy.

[Demsrule86]

102. He or she most certainly does not have the right to object to how I live my life...he/she can

worry about their own lives...thanks just the same.

[CrackityJones75]

114. I can object to ho others live their lives

I can object to ho others live their lives. I cannot force them to not live their life lawfully. But I can object. I object to a hell of a lot of conservatives in how they live their lives. Many of them Christians.

[Mariana]

136. You might want to reread the First Amendment to the Constitution.

You seem to be a bit confused regarding some of the rights that are guaranteed to us therein.

[Piasladic]

97. "no right to object"

Goodness. Sounds like someone is a bit intolerant.

[Demsrule86]

103. My response was that a poster said he/she had the right to object to what I believe in terms

or religion...how I live my life. I repeat, he/she has no such right. I certainly will pay no attention in any case.

[CrackityJones75]

115. Of course someone has the right to object to how you live your life

They cannot force you to live your life a certain way.

I object to many ways people live their lives.

[Mariana]

135. Many Christians don't hold our First Amendment in high regard.

Of course, the First Amendment does directly contradict several of the Ten Commandments.

[Blue_true]

125. I am a Warm Deist and I am somewhat put out by the post.

I believe that organized religion is an interpretation of what I see from the workings of Nature. I believe that we make our own evil, heaven and hell by the life that we chose to live.

But like you, though differently, I can’t come to the conclusion that we just showed up and exist. There is a larger aspect of our existence. Someone mentioned Stephen Hawking and Albert Einstein as a pushback against organized religion, but some of History’s greatest thinkers have been Deists, or organized religious people that took a more expansive view of our existence here and our purpose than what I see today in most organized religions.

[orleans]

133. sorry, but what is a "warm" deist? n/t

[Mariana]

134. " ... you have no right to object if others do."

Let us consult the Constitution of the United States, Amendment 1.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. We do, in fact, have the right to object.

[Sur Zobra]

41. Rec!

[EX500rider]

50. And yet when Native Americans declare some ground "sacred" to them is that also nonsense?

Or just Christian religious beliefs?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

53. Yep. I don't bring that up here because it will be regarded as impolite ...

But that is EXACTLY what I think to myself.

At least WRT any supernatural component to the argument.

Sorry.

CULTURAL value, however, is different.

If it's a burial ground and it's valued for its significance for family and cultural ties, for example. Totally understandable.

[Blue_true]

127. American Indians have talked about spirits, invisible forces that guide their lives.

A lot of rituals, like dances and chants were done to implore the “spirits” to solve a worldly problem.

[obamanut2012]

67. Of course it is

But, they still have a right to the land.

You are conflating "Is religious magical thinking?" v. "Do First Nation folks have a right to their land?" tsk tsk tsk.

[EX500rider]

86. Not at all.

The land deal in Arizona that has been in the news is not on tribal land but in a US National Forest yet most here seem to think we should honor their belief that the land they don't own is sacred and not exchange that parcel for a larger piece the mining company is offering in exchange.

[Mariana]

70. The poster didn't mention Christianity at all. nt.

[EX500rider]

85. Yes that's why I asked, many here at DU who are contemptuous of Christian beliefs..

....do not seem to hold Tribal beliefs in the same regard.

[Mariana]

116. There's no reason to suppose that the poster actually meant to say

"Religion is just one of a great many supernaturally-based ideas that I regularly deride as nonsense - except for tribal beliefs."

He was pretty clear that he considers all of them to be nonsense.

[stopdiggin]

79. yes. unfortunately that is so

I can agree to 'honor' (and/or respect) their beliefs the same way that I would a religious service at a wedding or funeral. Not the same thing at all as sharing that belief. Do I believe that the Black Hills are sacred? No I don't. Important to some people in a cultural context (that I might not ever fully appreciate?) -- sure thing! I can try to work with that, without ever acceding to the idea that their mores and beliefs override my own.

[USALiberal]

51. So true, make believe is fun! nt

[Xolodno]

78. No Ghost Adventures show for you! nt.

[Blue_true]

123. Have you ever thought deeply about why you exist and the purpose.

I am a Warm Deist. I believe there is a guiding influence in my life, there have been times when I have been at wit’s end and out of the blue pops an inspiration that allows me to solve the problems that I face.

You can call it believing in a sky-fairy or hocus-pocus if you want, but I believe that my ultimate fate in life has been set for me, I can make choices, but no choice that I can possibly make will ever be outside of the choices that my composite fate in life pre-ordained. I also believe that special people are born into this world at critical times, and that their impact on humankind long after their life is done is profound.

Have you ever thought about how our solar system works, about how the milky-way galaxy works, about how the universe works? I believe that if you do, you will see undeniable patterns that seem done by design.

I am not saying run off to your nearest church, mosque, or temple, because I would not and have not, their interpretation of what I see is simply different and has been driven by centuries of driving people toward obedience and uniform thought, none of which god intended for us to do.

My heaven or hell will come during the last few seconds of my existence in this world, right now I like my chances of dying calmly and peacefully (heaven).

[Hugh_Lebowski]

132. The closest thing there is to 'magic' IMHO ... is creativity.

It's not magic, but it's pretty close to meeting a lot of criteria.

I don't have some cosmic/pre-ordained purpose. None of us do. But ... we have a NEED to feel like we do.

We exist because the laws of chemistry and physics in this universe allow for us to exist.

We exist because every creature in our ancestry survived to long enough to reproduce.

We exist because all life on this planet was never utterly annihilated by a cataclysmic event (though a couple times in the earth's history, huge %'s of species were wiped out in a geologically short time).

We exist because there's a shit-ton of water on this planet.

The fact that it has a large, nearby moon, and is tilted on it's axis relative to it's path around the sun is probably also a hugely critical component.

The fact that the metallic component of the earth's core produces a magnetic field that protects life from a considerable amount of cosmic radiation is probably also critical to our being here.

IMO, we're here because 'life in this universe is physically possible', and there's literally billions of stars that can have planets circling them.

I would also point that a great, great many of us would not be here, and certainly not talking on this 'internet forum' ... if the energy wealth of hundreds of millions of years of solar energy were not discovered to be buried, stored under the earth in the form of fossil fuels.

To sum it up ... humanity exists ... by chance. By virtue of a 'numbers game' ... SOMEWHERE among billions and billions of planets ... intelligent life will evolve.

I believer we're born, we live, hopefully reproduce, and die. The laws of physics do not allow for 'afterlives'.

The fact that 'we're here' is miraculous. Not in a magical way, but in a 'the odds are very much against life often evolving to this advanced of a point in this cold, dark, vacuum of space' kind of way.

IMHO, people should feel incredibly fortunate that they get to exist, to live a life ... insisting on ways that they'll get to 'live on after their body dies', I just think is really asking too much from this universe.

[PasadenaTrudy]

159. Love this

Your comments are like a breath of fresh air!

[Celerity]

137. [phone]

[Kaleva]

147. People believe in aliens', flat Earth, Q, all vaccinations are bad and so on.

[msfiddlestix]

154. Exactly

Additionally, the Con Evangelical "movement" have been allowed to reign high above all others in every political arena aided and abetted by the media and put up on a pedestal political operatives and elected officials. But the media is largely responsible for giving them a platform to blather their bs regarding policies and laws impacting the entire country.

Their involvement isn't benign. It's a malignant force giving cover to dark money, plutocracy, authoritarians, and white supremacy.

Whatever the percentage of the population of progressive evangelicals, I don't know. After 70 years of living, I haven't seen progressive evangelical communities as ever taking on the dark forces of the Conservative Grifters leading the generic Evangelical "movement" and ultimately generating undo negative influence on our political system.

[LAS14]

155. "After 70 years of living..." It's time you had a new experience. Check out sojo.net. net

[msfiddlestix]

157. what is sojo?

in a few words?

all I'm saying really is freedom from all religion.

[SoonerPride]

2. I blanket condemn all religions equally.

They are all superstitious claptrap.

Mankind in his infancy told stories to explain a universe he couldn’t understand.

It is time to put away childish things.

[LAS14]

3. Now that we can understand the universe? :-) nt

[Blue_true]

128. So we understand the workings of the the Universe? nt

[LakeArenal]

4. I have blanket condemnations of all organized religion.

As Ricky Gervais says (paraphrasing):
There are 2000 religions that Christians don’t believe in. For me there’s 2001 that I don’t.

[randr]

5. I would never profess to being a Christian

but I know none when I meet one.

[Croney]

6. As long as church and state stay apart, I won't begrudge our leaders their faith,

although I'd love to see more out atheists.

At least we are far better now than in the last four years, when snake handlers roamed the White House.

[qazplm135]

7. I don't blanket condemn anything

Religion isn't based on anything that isn't human, thus it has merits and flaws depending on how it's used, just like everything else based on humans.

Having said that, too many religious people place too much of their lives into it, and in ways that make them thing they are better than other people, or that other people are lesser, and that is the part that's the problem. Not the person who believes in a religion but is otherwise a decent, kind and humble person.

So, as it usually is, it's not about the religion, it's about the person regardless of the religion.

[Bettie]

8. Given my experience of the world

which includes being raised in a "Christian" household (evangelical) and having many relatives of that stripe, I have come to believe that religion has, overall, a toxic and corrosive effect on human society.

Religion is usually what divides us.

Apparently, belief in a magical being who fixes it all when you die so that you can be a terrible person during your time on this planet, gives people "permission" to be horrible to everyone who isn't exactly as they are.

If your religion comforts you, that is wonderful.

If it is primarily used as a bludgeon to punish or a reason to hate others (which most of it is), then, you aren't a good person, no matter how kind you are to those in your club (church).

I know a few decent religious people, but I can count that number on one hand.

[CrispyQ]

21. Man created God to control woman. And others he doesn't like or approve of.

They even co-opted the birth process & crafted woman from one of man's ribs. I knew a grown woman who believed that men had one less rib than women.

When I was a teenager during Confirmation class, I asked why there were no women in the holy trinity. The minister proceeded to list all of the women in the Bible, totally ignoring my real question about the trinity. Then I asked why we didn't refer to God as a parent instead of a father, & Jesus as a child instead of a son, or better yet, a special pronoun for God, since we were taught that God has no sex. His response was, "Now you're just being silly."

[Bettie]

26. Yeah, I did the whole church/Sunday school as kid too

they really don't like it when you ask them questions.

My "worst" moment was when I asked them if god is all-powerful, omnipresent, and all that, doesn't it follow that different religions, like different languages, relate back to the Tower of Babel story, since an all-powerful, omnipresent god would receive all the prayers anyway, no matter what you call it?

I stopped going after she yelled at me for asking such a question.

Oh, mine also said god was definitely male, because he created Adam in his image and the woman was simply a helper for Adam, not a full person!

[Hortensis]

47. Imo, you have it backwards, Bettie. Humanity has toxic and corrosive

effects on all its beliefs, no matter how good good people intend them to be. Religion is only one type that humans stamp all our faults and virtues on, but it is one type that importantly always attempts to instill virtues and tamp down faults. Most others do not.

So that makes it bizarrely irrational to ignore both all the good religions do and all the evils people do for all other reasons. To ignore the oceans of blood spilled because of different languages or just accents, living in the valleys versus the hills, who gets the water from the river, who really deserves the bigger share of the harvest. ALL magically provide permission for evil to people who intend it and permission to be good and sensible to better people.

[Bettie]

87. Overall, my experiences with religion and very religious people

have been very negative.

You can talk all you want about the "good" religions, but frankly, I haven't seen it and it is getting worse.

So, fine, if you believe that people are only decent because they think they will be punished after they die if they aren't, then go for it. I hope it works out for you.

I'll keep my opinion based on my personal experience, which is nearly universally awful.

[Hortensis]

89. I'm not a person of faith, but I see little difference of morality

between good peoples, regardless of religion.

There's an old saying that religion makes good people better and bad people worse. I'd say it applies equally to people who turn to their inner moral cores for guidance instead, or don't because those're weaker than their less admirable impulses.

[raccoon]

144. I like that old saying. NT

[Blue_true]

129. Good points.

I can not and never will be able to understand why a person that claim to believe in God would ever try to harm another person, or discriminate against LGBTQ people. As a Warm Deist, I believe that God has a purpose for every thing that exists in this world, and if a person hate something or someone that God made, they are rejecting God’s work.

For me, the whole of Nature around me is my church, because in that, I see the workings of a higher power.

[CrispyQ]

9. You can almost tell what kind of Christian someone is by the political party they identify with.

And the fact that someone tells you they're Christian is often the first clue that they're also republican.

[JNelson6563]

11. Yes, the louder they Jesus the worse they are.

[LAS14]

12. Almost, but not quite. I like to spread the word about sojo.net, although I'm not,

...myself, evangelical. Just to put a dent in all-or-nothing thinking.

sojo.net

[Blue_true]

130. The ones that are vocal and in your face about their Christianity, yes.

But I have known many religious people, including some Christians, who never talk to or lecture people about their faith.

[JNelson6563]

10. "God" was invented when we didn't know where the sun went at night.

Time to let go, people.

[lindysalsagal]

13. The article isn't a pushback against atheism, it's only an acknowledgement that not all

factions of a religion employ politics as a wedge issue.

The article doesn't address the validity of any belief systems or the proof thereof.

Wanna believe in fairy tales? It's a free country.

[LAS14]

14. I didn't mean to imply that it argued for the truth or falsehood of Christianity, only that...

... it can be a force for the values we DUers believe in, as witnessed by many of our leaders.

[treestar]

15. Yes, people here can make generalizations about

large groups of people and fail to see the differences and nuances and subgroups and treat people as individuals, too. It's just aimed at different sets of people. So we don't need to congratulate ourselves that we are better than right wingers in that regard. There is a lot of black and white, either/or thinking on DU, too.

[FreeState]

28. But Christianity is Black or White

It’s either true or it’s not. There is no middle ground. The same is not true of politics.

[hunter]

66. It's just as true of politics.

The closest we can get to black and white is science and even that gets a little fuzzy around the edges.

Nobody has a fundamental view of time, gravity, or quantum mechanics, for example. But with each successful experiment we find a little more signal in the noise.

The only people who have a Black and White view of Christianity are fundamentalists of some sort.

Some of them are atheists who have abandoned a fundamentalist religion but have kept most of the baggage that came with that religion.

Personally, I wouldn't respect any god that demands I defend them. I don't feel personally assaulted when someone tells me Jesus was a myth.

I fiercely oppose anti-intellectual religions that propagate by beating the inborn curiosity out of their own children. My parents never beat me for any blasphemies that passed my lips.

It has been my experience that people who worship unforgiving capricious asshole gods tend to be unforgiving capricious assholes themselves. The same is true of people who support unforgiving capricious asshole political leaders.

[stopdiggin]

73. nah. Christianity (in it's varied and myriad forms)

has developed all kinds of gray areas and semantic side steps in order to 'slip the noose' when things get too tricky. A couple of prominent examples, among many, many -- very few actually believe in the creation story (as related in Genesis) -- nor believe that witches, homosexuals or adulterous wives should be killed. So, in that sense -- not very black and white at all.

(from a non-believer. no vested interest one way or the other.)

[LAS14]

81. I'll repeat what I said to another post. That is a ridiculously ignorant statement. nt

[Celerity]

141. Not as ridiculous as a statement saying 'there is a god(s)'.

I contend that we all are atheists in reality. I just believe in one or more less gods than you and others do.

When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods except for yours, then you will understand why I dismiss yours as well.

[Kaleva]

146. Politics is black and white. Dems are good. Repubs are bad.

There is no middle ground.

[CBHagman]

117. Thank you for mentioning both black-and-white thinking and the way we treat people.

In volunteering on campaigns, I've been struck by how diverse Democratic voters are, in every sense, and I think we have an obligation to keep that in mind. If we want any sort of future, we shouldn't be thinking in narrow terms or putting our energies into labeling people and writing them off.

[cayugafalls]

16. It's not those who follow religion that are the problem, it is those who lead.

I welcome progressive Christians. That does not mean I embrace the illusion that one of several thousands of supposed gods is any better at producing humans with compassion, empathy or love than the moral inclinations of a properly loved and embraced human by someone who supports no gods at all.

It is love, empathy and compassion that is the true 'god' as a concept.

Many so called religious individuals are fully capable of not knowing how to love their fellow man or their own children and thus create souls that are abominations to humanity.

Being a christian or a believer in any religion, does not guarantee compassion, empathy or love. To believe otherwise is the fools errand.

I do respect your beliefs, I am just wary of those who embrace those beliefs while embracing hatred.

[lindysalsagal]

64. Sorry, but the followers are just a guilty of the endless suicides

and runaways that result from the bigotry. Without the followers, the leaders wouldn't be able to hurt innocents.

And I've hear too many women tell me they've been abused by church leadership to go along with the "bad apple" excuse.

[cayugafalls]

76. I do not disagree. If you re-read my post, you will find that so.

You must be reading a post I did not write, I do not ascribe to the bad apple idea and never said I did.

I merely stated that religion does not make someone good. It is love, compassion and empathy.

[frazzled]

17. There must be something to it

Loyola is beating Illinois! I’d say Jesus and Sister Jean are the best explanation for this bracket-busting game. But what do I know, I’m Jewish.

[GoneOffShore]

24. Hey, Ireland beat England last night and France beat Wales.

Two ostensibly Catholic countries teams wailing on the Protestants.

Maybe there is something in it.

Nah - It was just rugby.

[vlyons]

19. I consider Christianity as one of the most evil institutions in the world

It has a 2000 year history of intolerance, warfare, murder, torture, grifting, slavery, and misogyny. It's ideology is stupid and hateful. there is no creator god, people dead for 3 days don't suddenly come back to life. Humans are not born from virgins, or walk on water, or turn water into wine (alas), or ascend to heaven (wherever that is) without a rocket and an oxygen supply.

[sarisataka]

27. Did you vote for Biden?

He has been noted as being very devout in his belief of those things.

[Sibelius Fan]

35. So what?

Until we non-believers are accepted by society to the extent of other groups, we have no choice but to vote for candidates who are religious, because an overtly non-religious person can scarcely get nominated due to the fact that they aren’t religious.

[chowder66]

49. +1

[uponit7771]

60. You could've voted for something else vs "evil" 🙄

[obamanut2012]

68. +1

[vlyons]

54. I don't vote based on religion

nt

[uponit7771]

58. No you don't, you wouldn't have voted for Biden. Come on people, blanket condemnation is lazy

[Mariana]

99. A Christian is a person. Christianity is not a person.

One can believe that Christianity is evil, without believing that a particular Christian is evil, or that Christians in general are evil.

I suspect you understand this already.

[uponit7771]

100. A person, like Biden, follows the outlines of Christianity which you're calling evil. Please stop

... people

Base tenants of Christianity and other religions are not evil in and of themselves either, people who call themselves said religions do fucked up shit but that's not the base tenants of the religion.

On the other hand

The republican party leadership in word and deed is anti democratic, they've admitted as such and continue to do so to this day.

[A HERETIC I AM]

107. A base tenant of Christianity is that humans are born with a flaw - a sinful nature

And as a result they need to be “saved” by a 2000 year old Jewish zombie or they will spend eternity in anguish.

That’s fucking evil right there, no matter how you look at it, and when it is taught to children as fact, it is god damned child abuse.

There are a number of good messages about how to conduct one’s life in the Bible to be sure, but the vast majority of it is utter claptrap that no modern thinking person with a scintilla of intellect has any use for.

[uponit7771]

111. No its not, evil is what evil *DOES*. You got a tenant of Christianity that even breaks the laws ...

... of the day?

Hell, what about something in the bible that isn't moral by socialized UN standards?

I mean an edict of Christianity that's in bible written for the day for instance, not some rumor of something.

P.S. no you don't, I've been through this before ... most people go to the old testament but there's a reason it called the "OLD" testament.

Again people, stop ... we have more important things to do than broad brush whole religions.

The kGQP on the other hand that's easy ... look at the results from the last 3 kGQP presidents

[Mariana]

112. Oh come on. The most fundamental tenet of Christianity

is that all people are wicked sinners - including Christians - and therefore they need "salvation" which was achieved by Christ's sacrifice and resurrection (but only for those who believe). Is it not so?

However, since I'm not a Christian, I don't agree that everyone is inherently evil - including Christians.

[uponit7771]

152. Evil and sinner are two different concepts, we know that

[vlyons]

143. Jesus taught patience, tolerance, peace, forgiveness, and generosity

not condescending judgement, hatred of "the other," intolerance, greed, and grifting. Christianity was invented in 325AD at the 1st council of Nicea, which was convened by Constantine the Great to answer 3 basic questions. When to celebrate Easter, what was the relationship of Jesus to God, and what should be included in canon law. This is when the dogma of the Trinity was accepted. And the gnostics who didn't accept the Trinity were labeled as heretics and either exiled or murdered.

Yes there are plenty of Christians, who practice loving kindness and compassion. My beef isn't about them, but with the established Church.

[Blue_true]

131. You make good points.

The total of our existence is a wonder. Some people through history have taken advantage of that wondering to build power. So, we saw the rise of Christianity in the form of the early Roman Catholic Church, then other Christian sects splintered off from that. We had religion morph from multi-deistic gods to a mono-deistic god, and if one studies why, there was a reason, either one people were oppressed and created their god that protected only them, of higher-ups saw that having many gods that people could chose from reduced their power over people, so a single god that the higher-ups could interpret to the masses was desirable to those that were in a position to take advantage of the power that having a single god gave them.

[MustLoveBeagles]

20. It's a mistake to make blanket condemnations of anything

Unfortunately the followers of the Prosperity Gospel are the loudest and thus get all the attention. The squeaky wheels get the grease after all. Christians like Jimmy Carter don't get that much attention because they don't toot their own horns. They're too busy doing good works.

I was a Christian as a young child and moved away from it in my early teens. I'm more of an agnostic now. I've flirted with going back but never made the leap and don't think I ever will.

[Sibelius Fan]

40. Including current Republicans?

[uponit7771]

62. If based off their current leadership actions then no. Nazis were evil because of their actions ...

... in the leadership ranks of doing evil crap even though they had few written polices outlining those evil things.

On the other hand

The Trump administration had a written policy of genocide when it came to kidnapping children away from traveling families.

[EX500rider]

90. "policy of genocide when it came to kidnapping children"

Somehow I doubt any Jews who survived the Holocaust would equate separating non-citizen children from their parents while awaiting deportation with Auschwitz or Treblinka.

[uponit7771]

98. Don't have to, UN defined Article II Part E Genocide includes taking children from a group of

... people and putting them somewhere else.

It also includes separating people into horrid living conditions.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

What the Trump admin did was text book genocide when it came to kidnapping children by the thousands.

[EX500rider]

113. Taking children from the parents permanently..

...in order to try and erase their culture might qualify.

Detaining people who have illegally crossed a border and holding them till you can return them to their home country or allow them into yours is no where near genocide even if you separate them.

Unless you think the Biden administration is also guilty of genocide?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56405009

[uponit7771]

142. The kidnapping *WAS* permanent seeing the Trump administration had no plan to rejoin children

... illegally taking from their families making the Trump administrations WRITTEN kidnapping policy text book genocide relative to Article II Part E

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/trump-administration-family-separations-emails.html

But in reality, according to emails the House Judiciary Committee provided to NBC News, the administration had no database with information for both parents and children and no clear way to match them. Instead, DHS and the Department of Health and Human Services, which cares for migrant children in government custody, were hurrying to populate a single spreadsheet with the necessary data.

... and currently there are still around 300 children that have no matches to parents IINM

Unless you think the Biden administration is also guilty of genocide?

The Biden administration is not illegally taking children from families and have no plan to rejoin them or send them back to origin like Trump did.

Please don't proffer false equivalencies here, DU doesn't suffer LIVs

[TreasonousBastard]

22. I agree completely with Kristof...

Religion is not simply the belief in magical things. It is a method of setting up society without the fighting-- find, or invent, a god who lays down the rules and organizes our lives. No individual then has to battle to get his, her, or its way.

Human ego is then secondary to the will of something larger.

I grew up in a conservative Missouri Synod Lutheran church, and we had all the rites and ceremonies. We had our catechisms, and our creeds. And most of us wandered away, because it just made no sense after a while.

Looking for a missing spiritual chunk of life, I fooled around with some Eastern mysticism and other things, but none of that stuck, even though the teachings were often excellent. Maybe you have be born into that sort of thing. Eventually, I found a Quaker meeting and silent worship, which worked just fine. Theology was tricky, since the general assumption was that there was a God, but no one had seen or talked to him for over 2,000 years, so we really had no idea who or what God is. And we certainly don't know what he wants us to do these days.

Moving out of New Jersey and back to NY, where I found myself living about 60 miles from the nearest Meeting, but there was a UU church around the corner. Seems it's fairly common for displaced Quakers to be drawn to Universalist Unitarians. UUs don't have much in the way of doctrine, either-- we sort of straddle the line between Christianity and Ethical Culture. We have roots going back to Enlightenment Christianity, but now have 7 Principles (soon to be 8) instead of Creeds. Most UUs I've met are at lead mildly atheistic. Even the clergy.

Prosperity Gospel and the rest of that crap is as far from the Sermon on the Mount as you can get. The sermons and parables of Jesus are the basis of Christianity, and worthwhile reading even if you don't believe in Jesus' divinity.

[SidDithers]

30. Do progressive Christians take their porridge with or without sugar?...nt

Sid

[Karadeniz]

31. Christianity has been corrupted beyond all recognition. Fortunately, the people in charge have been

And still are too wooden headed to understand its well hidden messages... and it's those teachings which have been proven true in many, many experiments. Your mind can leave your body and see and hear without eyes or ears. Your mind affects the physical world. Reincarnation. Salvation by a man-god is not in the hidden messages.

I can well understand people's disbelief in the paranormal. But for all those who have experienced another reality, the naysayers will be unable to convince us otherwise. Still, the damage done by pseudo truth, which organized religion propagates, is deplorable.

[sarcasmo]

36. Self Delete

[Sibelius Fan]

38. Is there any real difference between holding Christian beliefs and holding QAnon beliefs?

Both are based entirely - ENTIRELY - on fiction, fueled by groupthink.

How refreshing would it be if writers like Kristoff took this opportunity to point this out, rather than offering yet another lame apology for a religion that has long ceased being of any value to the human condition. One may as well believe in The Force.

[Demsrule86]

39. I tire of the endless judgment Christians face. I belong to a progressive church in

Ohio...Episcopal church. We do much good in our area. We handed out tons of food...you know who wasn't handing out food? Atheist Organization...at least not in my area. Now I have no reason to judge what anyone believes in ...in terms of believing or not believing and neither do others who seem to think it is just fine to do so...and act so damn superior while doing it.

First of all stop thinking Christians are supposed to be better people...they are merely people...some 'good' and some 'bad'. Also, Evangelicals who believe in starving the poor, believe in being cruel to people from another land and literally hate their neighbors are not Christian and do not follow Christ. All of this is in the new testament which except for Paul (not even an original apostle) the Evangelicals ignore. This is where the teachings of Christ are found and the rest of the bible-the old testament- is filled with psalms, poetry and the history of the Jewish people. I rarely read or respond to post about religious and if the poster is truly obnoxious about it...I merely put him/her on ignore. Honestly most people here are just fine and I actually have no one on ignore at the moment

[Sibelius Fan]

42. How in the hell do you know atheists weren't handing out food?

It’s this kind of elitism and conceit that makes people despise Christians of all stripes.

Shame on you.

[Demsrule86]

44. I changed that because you are absolutely right( even before I read your post)...Athiest

organizations were not handing out food in my area. Anyone could have volunteered...some in the various churches some not...so certainly there could have been athiest's involved but not the organizations which is what I really meant. There were only members handing out food in my Church. As for arrogance, I suggest you reread your reply to me.

[Sibelius Fan]

65. What non-believer organizations are there in your area?

Non-believers aren’t generally know to organize as non-believers.

BTW - I don’t like the term “atheist.” It describes a person as what they are NOT, not as what they are. Should Christians be described as Amuslims? Should people who don’t collect stamps be identified as Aphilatelists? Does it make sense to identify anybody in such a way? Given all the ways one could be identified, it seems a bit insulting and myopic to identify a person by what they are not, as if their NOT being something defines them.

[Mariana]

84. "First of all stop thinking Christians are supposed to be better people..."

Exactly. History has clearly shown us that in general, Christians don't behave any better than non-Christians.

[hunter]

43. Next on the agenda, "Not all white people."

Followed by "A few bad cops."

[DFW]

46. I don't care about anyone's faith. Just look up the word.

"Faith" means you BELIEVE something. You don't (and usually can't) know it. You BELIEVE it. Well, fine. You can't prove it, and I can't disprove it. Believe what you want.

Fine with me, as long as I don't have to believe it. The moment someone tells me their beliefs justify making me or anyone else do something they don't want to do, that's where I draw the line. Believe what you want, and go in peace. Believe that some celestial entity says you may forbid other from doing this or that, or that you are allowed to harm or kill others because your belief says you are, that's is the line I will not have be crossed without some serious pushback.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

88. +1!

[Mariana]

109. The issue here is that some people seem to think some beliefs

(for example, Christianity) should never be criticized.

[meadowlander]

45. You're confusing condemnation of Christianity with condemnation of Christians.

To the extent that Christianity encourages people to be content with not understanding the world (because you just have to rely on "faith" ) or reliance on an authority figure instead of asking your own questions, I think it is a negative force in the world. It's not a coincidence that the same kind of thinking leads to an embrace of Republicanism and QAnon-type cult mentalities.

Can you be a good person and a Christian? Of course you can. My grandmother's local Catholic parish was central to the organised labour movement in her city and focused on relieving the suffering of the poor.

But you're not a good person because you're a Christian. It's not the religious tenets that made you that way. Most people are inherently empathetic and pro-social. They would be that way whether they went to church or not and regardless of other things that they might also believe.

So you can't point at Christians who are also left-wing and say "see Christianity by itself isn't so bad". The mindset is harmful whether or not some people still manage to be decent despite it.

[chowder66]

55. +1

[Blasphemer]

108. Precisely

Frederick Douglass wrote this: "Between the Christianity of this land, and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest, possible difference--so wide, that to receive the one as good, pure, and holy, is of necessity to reject the other as bad, corrupt, and wicked.” "Christianity" as a historical institution of power and tool of domination has been and continues to be dangerous. Christians, like Martin Luther King, who follow the Christianity of Christ and 1) are capable of distinguishing between the two and 2) challenge institutional Christianity are a different matter entirely.

[SoCal Roomba]

48. All religious organizations are a money grab.

The fact that religion makes people feel good about themselves is just the product they’re paying for.

Throw in heaps of people telling other people that they’re wrong about something that they have no proof of other than “a feeling”, and you have one giant scam.

If prostitution is the worlds oldest profession, then religion is the worlds oldest scam.

I see no harm in believing in a higher power separate from an orthodox following. As soon as you throw in the organizational aspect, that’s when it all goes sideways. This is true for all religions.

[LAS14]

63. "All religious organizations are a money grab." is a ridiculously ignorant statement. nt

[11 Bravo]

72. That's why Mother Teresa died rich.

[Sibelius Fan]

82. Her net worth was around $100-million at the time of her death.

[gibraltar72]

61. Magical thinking of any kind should be ridiculed.

[stopdiggin]

83. maybe dissuaded ?

I have a hard time ridiculing the 86 year old neighbor lady. She kind of a sweet old dear. And sometimes she leaves stuff from her garden by my door!

[11 Bravo]

93. Dissuasion requires the ability to make a coherent and thoughtful argument.

Ridicule requires nothing, intellectually speaking.
(See: Trump, Donald).
There's a reason that Lard Butt did nothing other than belittle those with whom he disagreed.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

74. My ire is mostly directed at the evangelicals...

... who are driven to find new converts to their religion.

Then they often don't even make it very difficult, declaring that everybody is a sinner anyway. Their focus tends to be the tribal thinking of "you SAID that you're one of us now!"

Focusing on the "outsiders" who they believe need to be converted might even lead to other kinds of bigotry.

With most of them, I feel like yelling, "Why don't you mind your own damn business?!"

"Live and let live" seems to be an impossible concept for many of them to grasp.

[BootinUp]

75. freedom of choice

thats the ticket. and that means no to any form of thought control.

[Goodheart]

80. There is considerable doubt that Jesus existed at all.

Last edited Sun Mar 21, 2021, 05:17 PM - Edit history (1)

And if he did he certainly was no great example, given the vast differences in how his so-called "believers" follow him.

Aside from that, does the OP understand that condemning Christianity is not the same as condemning Christians? And what does "condemn" mean, anyway?

[Buckeye_Democrat]

105. Christianity has changed a lot from its early beginnings.

The early Christians tended to use a fish as their symbol, and with more positive imagery overall. Jesus was also often depicted as a boy with effeminate features in early artistic portrayals of him.

The cross became a more common symbol after the Roman emperor, Constantine, became a Christian and he compelled it upon others.

Constantine murdered his own son over jealousy, by the way, so that might've also been a factor in the shifted attention to God allowing the sacrifice of his own son.

[Rizen]

106. I'm an atheist. IDGAF what you are as long as you vote democrat.

That's all that matters.

[roamer65]

110. Christianity has a long sordid history.

It isn’t just modern day “fundies”.

[LiberalFighter]

118. Personally, I don't think religion should be thought of as a religion.

I believe that religion is the result of people having fear of the unknown as well as acts of nature. Especially in the cavemen era an enterprising person could take advantage of those fears and use it to their advantage.

[Klaralven]

119. Ephesians 4

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body.

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

[Blue_true]

121. I may have slipped, but every time I believe that I have criticized

rightwing evangelicals, I made it clear that it was that type that I was criticizing. Unfortunately, they vastly outnumber Jesus-like Christians these days, IMO.

I am a Warm Deist, so other than being put out by the rank avarice of rightwing so-called Christians and prosperity religion, I really don’t concern myself with much organized religion at all, my church is the Nature around me, within that I see god’s work and purpose for me. I do think there are a few Churches, Mosques and Temples that are beautiful works of architecture.

[jcgoldie]

122. "Believe it if you need it If you don't, just pass it on"

... or pass on it.

I don't care what anyone believes though it seems like a bunch of nonsense to me. The problem I have is the effect Christianity consistently has on our society. If something is consistently twisted into what its adherents claim is the opposite of its true message then... uhm maybe thats really its true message..?

[hamsterjill]

124. I'm a Christian by choice.

I’m also pro choice and I support the right for adults to marry as they see fit, or not. My religion dictates nothing to anyone else as believing or not believing is an individual choice as well.

I’m not a regular church goer. I’ve never found that helpful to my spiritual growth.

Love and compassion are the defining elements of the teachings of Jesus in my opinion, and I don’t believe that the crazy Evangelicals represent those tenets.

As long as someone respects my choice to believe, I will respect whatever choice they make. But if I’m disrespected because I have a belief system, then I have no reason to endure that.

[NeoGreen]

126. Pretty weak pushback...

Plus, it's not christianity that's the problem per se, whatever the current flavor/iteration of the latest generation, it's faith itself that is the problem. If christianity (or islam, or hinduism, or shinto) gets condemed, it's just collateral damage in the condemnation of faith, i.e. believing (and acting on) bad ideas based on bad evidence.

Trying to preserve a dogmatic system is not progressive at all, by definition. Conservatism is the maintenence of dogma.
Progressivism accepts new data, discards the failed elements of a theory, modifies the model, moves on and adapts.

To paraphrase Daniel Dennett:
"There is no easy way to inform the religious that the basis of their beliefs are a delusion. There is no easy way to tell them they have been lied too. But we still should,"

[Celerity]

139. Is there a sale on logical fallacies that I missed?

So many being uses all over this thread by you and others in defence of the the world's oldest woo and con.

The willing suspension of disbelief necessary to believe in a god or gods is arguably the greatest human tragedy ever.

[Crunchy Frog]

140. A rec because I'm not religious, but I agree about the blanket condemnation so prevalent here.

I actually find it pretty sickening.

[raccoon]

145. What I don't like is Christians who are arrogant,

What I don’t like is Christians who are arrogant, obnoxious, and think if you don’t believe exactly the way they believe, you are wrong and they of course are right. And they always think they are superior to you because they believe the right way. Sometimes it’s hell to live in the Bible belt. I don’t tolerate such fools anymore.

[betsuni]

149. To me the point of being an atheist is that you want to ignore religion.

It's of no interest. I can't imagine nagging Christians.

[Piasladic]

150. not ignore

That would be like ignoring an open sewer. You smell it, but there's not much you can do about it but complain. You call the local gov. to report it, but they tell you it's normal and good.

[betsuni]

151. No.

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

153. If Jesus ran for President against Trump, more than half of the self identified Christians

in the US would vote for Trump. Certainly, all the conservative self-identified Christian voters would vote for Trump.

A lot of self identified Christians are fine folks who practice the "Golden Rule", and a lot of them practice a hate based form of the Christian religions, and would harm or kill you for your choice of a life partner, skin color, choice of some other belief system other than their belief system, or ethnicity (see Holocaust, Inquisition, etc). Etc.

This phenomenon is not limited to Christian religions, but since self identified Christians make up the bulk of the Euro-American population, it is more up in the faces of Americans.

I don't care what anyone believes, as long as they don't use their religious beliefs and practices as a justification for, and vehicle for, guilt, fear, and hate, often causing them to harm innocent others.

I don't know s**t, but I do like what Smowhala said - "each one must find for themselves the highest wisdom, it cannot be taught with words". I also like what Jesus reportedly said, "Love your neighbor as yourself".

peace, love, blessings, and happiness and all other nice things to all

[Mariana]

156. Tell me, is there such a thing as a Christian who isn't "self-identified"?

Doesn't every Christian identify him- or herself as such?

[MineralMan]

160. What DUers are doing that?

I've not noticed it.

[DonViejo]

161. Locking...

After receiving an alert concerning where this OP is posted, the Forum Hosts agree with the alert. The SOP of the General Discussions Forum:

Forum purpose: Discuss politics, issues, and current events. Posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports are restricted in this forum.

Please post your OP in the Religion Group