Joe Manchin needs to get in line or get out

[wellst0nev0ter]

I have had it up to here with this jackass's obstructionism and grandstanding. He is going to lose us the election in 2022 because unless we pass the election laws, the goops at the state level will steal the elections.

Link to tweet

[Fullduplexxx]

1. Well that's it then joe is gonna blow this for the dems

[Hortensis]

90. :) Woe is us? Uhuh. I've had it up to here with OPs pretending not to know

that getting rid of Manchin would likely throw control of the senate to the Republicans.

Is there such a thing as addiction to trouble? Everything going too well, too much hope in the air?

[Fullduplexxx]

91. I know that . I know all about what have that republican caucus with us means. I also know that the

Incumbents usually lose seats in the congressional elections . So dems made big promises in the run up to the last election that , because of joe , they wont be able to deliver. Also remember many votes were not just pro dem but anti-trump . Trump wont be an issue next election and so you wont have that either.
No trump, no real accomplishments from democrats ,tge usual low turnout from dems on congressional elections will make for a tough election for dem's very very slim majority. .

Lastly I didnt say to get rid of manchin. You know, reading comprehension comes in handy you should try it

[Hortensis]

93. Oh, dear. I assumed you'd responded sarcastically to the OP.

I can't imagine why you think Dems "won't be able to deliver," much less because of Manchin. He's not even a swing vote much of the time.

You probably didn't notice, but our funding bill came through mostly intact, his requirements fairly mild. Eight senators killed the proposal for a $15 MW, not just him; and worse, it was Senator Sanders, not Manchin, who blocked a lesser increase to the potential $11 Manchin was willing to consider. Again, not Manchin.

Maybe wait to see what happens, then complain and cry defeat? But preferably only if appropriate and after finding out what happened.

[PoliticAverse]

2. But he's recently expressed support for bringing back the "talking filibuster" which is all...

that is really needed to fix the problem.

[brush]

6. So how does the talking filibuster work? Once the senator sits...

down from exhaustion, that's it, the obstruction is over and the bill can reach cloture?

[WhiteTara]

9. yes

[PoliticAverse]

10. Unless they have multiple senators doing it yes, once the one senator gives up it is over.

The longest talking filibuster by a senator in a single session is considered to be Strom Thurmond's 24 hour 18 minute filibuster.

The filibuster over the civil rights act was participated in by several senators and lasted a total of about 60 days.

[brush]

12. Thanks. If our bills can't be classified as budget/spending bills and thus...

eligible for reconciliation, we can be patient and wait for all the republican, idiot obstructionists to sit their asses down from exhaustion, then get on with our business.

[PoliticAverse]

13. Talking filibusters rarely succeeded because you just have to wait them out...

and if the bill is important (like the civil rights act was) the supporters will be willing to put in the wait even if it is long.

[Calista241]

35. The Senate can't move on while a Senator is speaking on the floor during the filibuster.

So basically no other business gets done. You and I may think just waiting them out is easy, but it's actually a pretty big deal.

[CrackityJones75]

75. Yeah and we clobber them for it.

When they stop the government to do this they look like jackasses. not every filibuster is beloved.

[uponit7771]

64. There is no tomorrow. If filibust last 180 days it would be worth it, shut down the whole government

... if HR1 is not passed there is no overwhelming numbers to win in the future.

The voter suppression will make sure we can't win voter suppression works that's why Republicans are fighting so hard for it

[Demsrule86]

97. The people who vote might disagree... serously, do you ever talk to regular people who just want

government to work to solve their problems? As the party in charge if we filibuster for six months...we will lose the Senate and the house in 22.

[uponit7771]

101. If HR1 isn't passed we'll lose it anyway! 50 laws restricting voting on a good year now there's 250

... 250 laws passed on state levels and we haven't finished March.

THERE ... IS ... NO ... TOMMORROW

We either pass HR1 or kiss this union of states goodbye, the people who are justifying the 1/6 terrorist attack aren't going to "nicely" give back power if they ever get it again.

[Demsrule86]

118. I don't agree with that actually...I think we will find a way. However, I want a bill passed too.

It has to be a good bill to withstand court scrutiny. However, I don't get the almost hysteria about this matter...Manchin has said the voting bill is one that the filibuster might be lowered. Let's give the process a chance.

And consider, we lost the house for ten years after a spate of 'message voting'...in 10. Attacking moderate Democrats (most of those in office in 10 lost). We lost the House and set the stage for a Senate loss in 14. And mostly we did this to ourselves by not turning out for Obama in midterms which are every bit as important as presidential elections. We are working on it but with a 50 50 Senate, it is tough. Now is not the time to blame any Democrat.

[uponit7771]

123. You're tacitly agreeing with me, if we have to "find a way" then it's lost

.... this isn't 2020 where people who believe in the Constitution can brute force vote our way through winning an election seeing Republicans are currently negating The brute Force part with with 250 suppression laws in less than 3 months.

Republican suppression laws will not just affect people of color when it comes to voting these suppression laws are targeted at Democrats

If the people who are sympathizing with the justifications for the January 6th attack get into power the America will turn into Belarus .... textbook .....100%.... almost line for line Belarus or Turkey.

The people during the '90s thought Belarus would " find a way " also they didn't

People in power against the rules tend to stay in power,

[marble falls]

3. I've read Joe Biden has Manchin in a small group of Congressional advisers he meets with often ...

... I trust Joe Biden and President Joe Biden trusts Sen Manchin.

Good enough for me. Until we get the control in Congress and changes we need, we need Joe Manchin. There's no Democrat who can beat him in primary who could beat the GOP in an election.

[wellst0nev0ter]

7. The last time we trusted Joe Biden

He and Obama played footsies with the Liebercrats, and they lost us congressional majorities in 2010 and 2012.

No more.

Biden knows exactly what must be done to break this impasse, and he needs to do it now.

[PatSeg]

14. That was then, this is now

AND Obama was President and would have made the final decision(s). We can't put that on Biden. Meanwhile, I trust him to handle Manchin in the best way possible. There is no guarantee Manchin will budge though.

[JohnSJ]

4. You do realize it isn't only Manchin. There are a couple of other Democrats who are not ready

to get rid of the filibuster

Until something changes, what we need to do is gain seats in the Senate, and hold onto the majority in the House

[wellst0nev0ter]

8. Without passing the agenda

We will LOSE the majority in both houses. Did you not pay attention to what happened to the House last year?

[caber09]

18. Yes we paid attention..

We lost a lot of seats because of defund the police,one of the dumbest political slogans of all time and some of our members being dragged down by the far left,not because we didn't pass stuff...bills died in the senate..defund the police cost us seats and cost us winning seats all over the country. Don't believe me? Ask Pres Obama, Pres Biden and even here in NY ask some of our assembly members who were in much tougher races in liberal areas bec of it

[JohnSJ]

22. That was a definite factor. Fortunately, Biden made it clear he never supported that defund the

police slogan

[caber09]

23. Thank goodness...

Otherwise we'd be in minority losing even more seats..and suffering through trumps second term

[wellst0nev0ter]

37. Defunding the police had nothing to do with their losses

If anything, it's the fact that the moderates had no message beyond distancing themselves from "defund the police" that did them in.

What should have been a blue wave was done in by incompetence.

Ossoff would have lost his Senate race if there were no runoff. But thankfully, the Democrats finally found a united voice and promised voters $2,000 out the door if they elected a Democratic senate.

In other words, progressive policies win, distancing loses.

[caber09]

52. Nope defund did cost us..just ask Obama Biden etc

It cost us a blue wave/adding to our numbers, and nearly gave us a second trump term... one of the dumbest slogans of all time dragged down dems everywhere, costing us seats up and down the ticket all over the country..if Biden ticked one iota left from where he ran we would be facing disaster right now..it should never have come down to two seats in GA...we are lucky we won those seats...again don't believe me, as Pres Obama and Pres Biden

"Biden this week argued that the rallying cry to “defund the police” was a political third rail, saying in a private call with leaders of civil rights groups that it could hurt the Democratic candidates in Georgia’s two Senate runoffs next month.

“That’s how they beat the living hell out of us across the country, saying that we’re talking about defunding the police,” Biden said on Tuesday, referring to down-ballot races last month, according to audio obtained by The Intercept. “We’re not."

[wellst0nev0ter]

58. Neither you nor Biden

Can produce one iota of evidence that "defund the police" caused House Democrats to hemorrhage seats.

If Democrats crafted and stuck with the message of "$2,000 checks" all throughout the election campaign, we wouldn't have to worry about Joe Manchin.

[caber09]

67. So you know better than Biden Obama etc?

Nope you don't..it cost us bigger majorities whether you believe it or not..dems had pushed bigger stimulus since the spring when it passed the house and again in late summer, it collected dust on McConnells desk..dems were running on that already and got dragged down by one of the dumbest slogans in the history of politics..I will take the word of Biden Obama clyburn etc over delusions that it had no effect any day. They are a lot more privy to the situation than you or I..but I saw it cost seats here in blue New York..not sure where you live or whose district you are in..I am curious though..thankfully my reps survived, a lot others did not. It killed us all over the country including in blue states, you can keep denying it but that's the truth

PS in very liberal queens ny the pro police/against defund democrat destroyed the AOC backed defund the police candidate by a huge margin on the local level one district over from AOC...if defund doesn't play very well in most areas of nyc...how did it play out everywhere else..this just happened a few weeks ago in very democratic Queens so please don't pontificate that defund didn't cost us when it obviously did

[CrackityJones75]

76. Wait how many seats did progressives pick up

Wait how many seats did progressives pick up for us last election? How many primaries did they lose to not even be in position to run in the actual election?

I am not sure I like this tone about how the democrats failed us.

[Demsrule86]

102. Nonsense. It was the protests and defunding the police. Some prominent Democrats had it

on their websites and it was used in ads in places like South Carolina. Those who won new seats this year were either moderates or conservative types. You have to win elections to make demands...and that didn't happen. When an AOC politician can win in WVA, let me know. Until then we need the Manchins and the Sinemas and that is the reality of our situation. Here is the Senate map...that may be likely. You seen any likely progressive wins? I mean where they flip Republican seats and add to our majority? I see none.

[onenote]

42. And if Manchin "gets out" now, how does that help pass the agenda?

[onenote]

61. You seem to not understand that with McConnel in charge

Nothing gets passed. Imagine a vacancy opening on the Supreme Court. Imagine all the other vacancies that exist or will occur.


I guess you don't care.

[wellst0nev0ter]

63. Nothing gets passed if Manchin obstructs

And Manchin already blocked a Biden nominee, so we'll see about Supreme Court picks.

[onenote]

80. There are over 70 federal court vacancies at the moment. Almost 10 percent of district court

positions. And more vacancies are going to occur as judges take senior status, opening up more opportunities to nominate Democrats. And while Manchin's opposition to Tanden contributed to the failure of her nomination, it was not at all clear that he was the only Democrat to oppose her. And apart from opposing Tanden, he has supported every other Biden nominee, which is more than can be said for Sanders.

[Demsrule86]

105. The most progressive bill since Johnson just passed and it was moderate Democrats who helped

pass it so maybe one should consider that. We work with what we have and get what we can. Sure is better than the nothing we would get with McConnell.

[andym]

5. Talking filibuster is hard work

just watch Jimmy Stewart's character in "Mr Smith Goes to Washington" filibuster until exhaustion. But most of all it's more traditional so no one can really argue against it.

[PoliticAverse]

11. That is definitely the classic movie version...

[dutch777]

15. Have to move him the old fashioned way...bridges and retraining for out of work coal miners, etc.

in West Virginia. Or if you were LBJ, dig up skeletons they don't want exposed and beat them over the head with a tibia. Basic politics however distasteful and transactional is likely the only workable solution and even that may not work. At the end of the day, while Dems, they answer to their constituents come the next election. Whether it is Manchin, Sinema or others, with our slimmest of majorities, we can't threaten them with taking away committee assignments and the other levers that would work if we had a good majority. We don't and they can choose to go independent or even caucus with the Repubs and then we have worse problems.

[dflprincess]

69. I have no problem with LBJ tactics

Especially when dealing with a jerk like Manchin.

[dem4decades]

16. Brilliant, Manchin goes out, Mitch goes in. Mitch McConnell Majority Leader must sound good to some

[empedocles]

20. You got it right. Seems like there must be an available learning curve somewhere for 'some'.

[dem4decades]

24. You never know who is real or who may be fake.

[onenote]

82. I think we have an idea when folks link Biden and Obama to the "Liebercrats".

[Fiendish Thingy]

17. Let's see what a long hot summer with thousands of vaccinated protestors stalking him does

To change his mind.

He’s backed into a corner- if he doesn’t vote to kill, or at least modify the filibuster, his career ends in 2024.

He can’t switch parties, because he wouldn’t even win the 2024 GOP primary against a Trump-approved candidate who didnt vote twice to convict Trump during the senate trials.

[caber09]

21. How does his career end in WV?

The only thing right now that he is doing wrong for his constituents is opposing the min wage to 15, while very important no doubt, it's pretty much the only thing he is doing that West Virginians wouldn't support right now. You Gonna primary him with a lefty...then say hello to another R in Senate with Mitch back as leader..the only way his career ends in WV is if he comes off as voting for too many policies his constituents don't agree with...I trust Bidens relationship to help here..at least he is open to the talking filibuster

[Fiendish Thingy]

28. He only won re-election in 2018 by 3%/19,000 votes

With progressive groups like Move On and Poor People’s Campaign mobilizing his constituents, it’s easy to see how 19,000 voters wouldn’t support Manchin if he doesn’t support them.

[caber09]

30. Which is why it's a mistake for him to be against min wage hike..

But everything else he goes with them..let's not forget 2018 was tough for him because of the pressure on him from trump despite manchin not being totally against him and the kavanaugh hearings...2018 was a huge year for moderate dems while the far left didn't win much in the big blue wave.

[Demsrule86]

113. You are just plain wrong...you see thing that are not there. No one is going to stalk Manchin in

WVA. He may not even run in 24...God help us if he doesn't. But he will win in WVA if he chooses to run.

[Fiendish Thingy]

119. Tell that to the Poor Peoples Campaign, who compelled Manchin to meet with them

The minimum wage fight was just the warm up.

If you think the movement to protect voting rights, quite visible now in GA, will bypass WV, you are mistaken.

[ananda]

19. Can't Biden and his team get Manchin on side?

???

[Demsrule86]

51. He voted for the relief package...now we are going to attack Joe Biden...face facts we have

a divided Senate...50 50 and will lose our majority if Manchin was not here...give it some time and you need some patience too.

[ananda]

53. OMG, I'm not attacking anyone!

I was just asking whether Biden and his team could do anything
if the Dems don't succeed.

Sorry I wasn't more clear.

It's just a question.

[Demsrule86]

103. The Dems have already succeeded in passing the most progressive bill since Johnson and

Roosevelt...and Biden can't wave a magic want and get everything he wants...but he is working on it so a little patience is in order. As we have no way to get everything we want with a 5050 Senate...we should appreciate having enough Dems to keep the gavel out of McConnell's hands.

[ananda]

124. I like the Biden admin. They have done great so far!

I'm just wondering what exactly what it will take preserve the
right to vote in those 43 states.

Perhaps it will come down to raising huge amounts of money
to support protesting and lobbying on a daily persistent scale.

I don't know. How do we preserve free and fair elections?

[Demsrule86]

106. Sorry...misunderstood your post.

[TomDaisy]

25. when I posted a comment like this, I got in trouble

[budkin]

45. I think more people are getting fed up with his BS

He LOVES this power.

[Demsrule86]

104. It would be so great if Manchin was gone and a GOP replaced him...why having McConnell back

in charge would be so wonderful and all.

[budkin]

132. Yep. We need him for now unfortunately

But as soon as we get more Democratic senators we need to drop all support for him and let him go.

[TomDaisy]

142. the stakes are so high right now

[brooklynite]

26. I'm sure that OUR REVOLUTION and JUSTICE DEMOCRATS have someone in mind who...

...can get 35% of the vote.

[caber09]

32. HA! On this we agree! :)

[Demsrule86]

112. +10000

[LetMyPeopleVote]

27. Do you seriously want Sen. Manchin to change parties?

You do realize that this would give MoscowMitch control.

[Fiendish Thingy]

29. He won't switch- it would mean the end of his senate career in 2024. Nt

[LetMyPeopleVote]

31. Not in the real world

You do know that trump won West Virginia by a large margin?

[Fiendish Thingy]

33. Which is why Manchin would lose a 2024 GOP primary

He barely won re-election by 3%/19,000 votes- he would lose the GOP primary to a Trump-approved candidate who didnt vote to convict Trump twice.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

44. Manchin is the best the Democratic Party can hope for in West Virginia

Link to tweet

[Fiendish Thingy]

46. I have no tolerance for apologists for a man who could single-handedly destroy Dem majorities

And destroy them for a decade or more.

One way or another, Manchin must support changes to the filibuster so that HR’s 1&4 can pass by this fall. If he blocks this critical legislation, then he must, and shall, face the most severe political consequences.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

55. The real world does not care about your feelings

Neither does Senator Manchin

Link to tweet

[Gruff B. Gus]

56. Who is Ali Dincgor?

And why are we supposed to care what he thinks.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

84. LOL. In the real world, the actions proposed by the OP will not work

Link to tweet

?s=20

[Fiendish Thingy]

65. Get back to me this summer when the streets of WV are flooded w/thousands of protestors.

The “real world” will speak out and March in the streets of WV, AZ, GA and anywhere else voter suppression is being expanded.

Then we’ll see who cares about feelings...if his obstruction continues, the narrative will shift from Manchin being a stubborn conservative who opposes changes in senate traditions, to a man who is enabling racist Jim Crow-era voter suppression.

The debate over this issue isn’t even on the stove yet- by summer, it will be boiling over...Manchin won’t be able to ignore it.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

85. There are things called facts that matter in the real world

Manchin is not up for re-election until 2024 and barely won in 2018. trump won West Virginia in 2020. Manchin will likely not run in 2024 but there is no way that a progressive type candidate could hope to win this seat in the real world I am amused that you think that we can impose any sanctions on Senator Manchin

Link to tweet

[Fiendish Thingy]

95. If Manchin has decided to retire in 2024, and go out in a blaze of Jim Crow shame, you're right

There isn’t much we can do to sway him if:
1) he’s leaving anyway
2) he doesn’t care if he is only remembered as a villain who destroyed the Democrats as a national party, and enabled Jim Crow to be resurrected from the grave...

So far, I have seen little evidence of either being true, but I imagine we will know, one way or another, by this fall.

In the meantime, until Manchin tips his hand, Dems, and his constituents in particular, should not hesitate to keep up the pressure on Manchin to Do The Right Thing.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

108. Open your eyes and look at the facts

What pressure do you think can be put on Manchin in the real world? Why should he care about your opinion?

[Fiendish Thingy]

121. It's ironic that you seem to accept defeat despite your DU name.

Already the Poor People’s Campaign has compelled Manchin to meet with them over the minimum wage, and that was just a warm up.

The voting rights movement, most visible now in GA, will not ignore the critical strategic role the Senators from WV and AZ play in this fight.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

134. I live in the real world

I and a good number of real Democrats have been working hard to turn Texas blue. I have been volunteering a great deal time on voter protection efforts for a long time and I am involved in organizing a statewide organization of Democratic Lawyers.

Texas is already one of the hardest states to vote in and the GOP is going to make it harder.

Link to tweet

Texas had the worst voter id law in the nation and we sued and got it gutted. It takes hard work in the real world to fight voter suppression

[Fiendish Thingy]

137. In the meantime, while suits are pending, Dems lose their majorities for a decade

While democracy dies, along with the planet.

Not exactly what I’d call a winning strategy.

That’s why so many Dems hair is on fire- Schumer, Schiff, Merkley, the entire progressive caucus.

But you hair isn’t on fire, so I guess that’s cool.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

141. LOL. Your strategy has no chance of success in the real world

All you can proposed is holding your breath and pouting. Your plan has no chance of changing Senator Manchin's mind in the real world. I like living in the real world and facts matter in the real world

Link to tweet

I would love to have a magic wand but in the real world there are no magic wands. To get change in the real world, you have to do hard work. Texas will turn blue and this will not be due to magical thinking but due to hard work.

If you have a plan that will work in the real world, let us know what this plan is

[Demsrule86]

114. You can't pressure Manchin and it causes more harm than good.

[Demsrule86]

109. He actually gave us a majority.

And maybe progressive complaining about Manchin endangers our majority...did you ever consider that? I watched in horror as the Claire McCaskill was taken down mostly by our side...and now what do we have...a Republican who never votes with us and little hope of getting the seat back in the next decade.

[NurseJackie]

127. Count Your Blessings...

... that's my message to the Joe Manchin haters.

And maybe progressive complaining about Manchin endangers our majority...did you ever consider that?

Doubtful. (Isn't that sad?)

Oh well... I'm delighted he's one of ours. He's not perfect (who is?) but he's NOT a Republican, and that's what matters most to me.

[Amishman]

48. They'd love him for stabbing us in the back.

He'd be a right-wing folk hero.

Not even kidding.

[BGBD]

71. Still going on

about things you don't know anything about I see.

[Fiendish Thingy]

77. I know his constituents are getting mobilized and are prepared to act

Should he continue to obstruct Biden’s agenda, including passage of the voting rights bill.

Surely you’re aware of this as well?

[LetMyPeopleVote]

87. Really? Do you have any authority for this?

How will this challenge work in the real world?

[Fiendish Thingy]

98. I'm not sure what you're getting at- authority for what?

Right now, in the “real world” that you speak of, Manchin’s constituents are being mobilized by groups such as Move On, Indivisible and the Poor People’s Campaign.

There have been posts here on DU with videos and news reports about these actions. The minimum wage fight was just a warm up, and as more folks are vaccinated, expect more public and vocal actions to occur.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

107. Is this merely your uniformed opinion or do you have facts backing up this claim?

What are basing this claim on? Are you assuming that other people are upset just because you are upset?

In the real world, Manchin is not up for re-election until 2024. Where are the supposed reports of voters in West Virginia being upset with Manchin?

[BGBD]

128. lol

Absolutely not. Manchin wins elections in WV by intentionally inflaming progressives, yet I'd supposed to believe that he desperately needs progressives to win an election?

This is the guy that put out an ad of himself literally shooting a hole through "cap and trade" legislation. He out performed Obama in 2012 by 25 points. In 2018 he went up head to head against Trump and the best candidate the WV GOP could put out and still won. Consider that was in an election where WV was one of the lowest turnouts in the nation. This wasn't young progressive voters turning out, it was the super-voters who always vote. In WV that's a very Trump friendly group, yet he still won on a night where democratic senate candidate in much more competitive states went down.

Progressives aren't turnout out to vote for Manchin, when they do turn out they vote for the Mountain Party. When Democrats try to run a progressive candidate in WV they are eaten alive.

Arguing that a candidate is going to suffer from providing resistance against a president that won less than 30% of the statewide vote is just a bad position to take. The truth is that the only chance Manchin has to win is to be seen as an independent voice who isn't afraid to stand up to his own party.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

143. I am still waiting for some authority for your amusing but wrong claims

[Fiendish Thingy]

144. Go ask the WV voters who participated in the Poor People's campaign forum with Manchin

And the WV voters who contributed and participated in Move On’s actions.

There was a thread in the video section with the PPC event.

If the momentum on the ground continues, it will be an interesting summer in WV.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

145. So you have no authority for you position

Thank you for admitting this

[Fiendish Thingy]

146. You never stated what you mean by "authority"- did you mean evidence?

I already explained what I meant- your turn to explain what you mean.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

147. In the real world one supports their arguments with authority

LOL
I AMJURED evidence and debated on the college level. In the real world one uses facts to defend their claims or assertions. Your opinion without support is meaningless in the real world. I would love to see you attempt to support your claim that running a progressive against Joe Manchin would be taken seriously n the real world

[Fiendish Thingy]

148. Is AMJURED a real word? If it is, I don't know it. Does it mean you are a lawyer?

So all this time, you’ve been using the term “authority” in the arcane legal-debate club context, when you could have used the widely used term “evidence” just as easily.

In all our back and forth in this thread, I NEVER claimed progressives would run against Manchin in a Dem primary- I said he would lose the GOP primary in 2024 if he switched parties.

What I am saying is that currently progressives are mobilizing Manchin’s constituents- initially to lobby for the minimum wage, and now to press him on voting rights/filibuster reform. This is happening, right now, “in the real world”, on the streets.

I gave examples of the forum organized by Rev. Barber’s Poor People’s Campaign, as well as Move On’s current campaign. Short of having Rev. Barber contact you personally to confirm this, I don’t know what evidence (aka authority) would convince you. I already posted a video from part of the forum in another thread.

You yourself posted tweets showing how thin Manchin’s margin was in 2018. If he continues to obstruct on voting rights and refuses to budge on the filibuster (in the time since this thread has started, it seems more likely that he will acquiesce to changes in the rules eventually), thus becoming an accessory to the murder of American Democracy, I can see him easily losing in 2024 to a Trump approved opponent- all it would take is 19,000 pissed off constituents (his margin in 2018- more authority, er, I mean, evidence) to stay home or vote third party. I’m not advocating that course of action, just noting that it is a distinct possibility, and that Manchin’s re-election in 2024 is far from a slam dunk.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

149. Do you tire of being wrong?

I am not surprised that you have not heard of the term amjured. If is used by lawyers who did well in law school See https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15262011

You have failed to provide any back up to your claims. In the real world uninformed opinions are meaningless and are ignored by fact finders. One of the courses I amjured in was evidence and the rules of evidence are clear as to the weight that is given to non-expert opinions. Your opinion is meaningless and you really should try to use facts to back up your amusing but wrong claims. Facts are good things and the opinions of a non-expert are not given any weight in the real world.

What is your proof other than your uninformed/non-expert opinion that progressive are mobilizing Manchin’s constituents? You have made assertions based on what you believe to be true but I am not willing to accept your unsupported assertions. Why do you believe that any of Manchin’s constituents would care about the opinions of a group of progressives in the real world? Manchen giving in to idiots like the Just Us Democrats will alienate far more of his supporters compared to the voters he may lose by appearing to give into Just Us Democrat types

I was a maxed out donor to Biden and some other candidates and I am not sure how I ended up on the Just Us Democrat mailing list I enjoy laughing that these emails because the Just Us Democrats are truly clueless. The efforts by this group and other similar groups will have no effect on Manchen amuses me a great deal. Manchen and his core voters will not be moved by any such efforts if anyone is dumb enough to attempt such efforts. If anything such efforts would make it very easy for Manchen to change parties which would be a bad thing.

Manchen is the only Democrat who has a chance of winning in West Virginia in 2024. trump's hold on the GOP has been lessening and trump's legal and financial issues will accelerate that process. Cyrus Vance and the Fulton County DA appear to be on track to bring charges against trump and it will be fun watching trump attempt to re-finance the debt that is coming due. trump is attempting to set up a dark money pac to help pay for his legal fees and to help re-finance his debts. This will be fun to watch in that any money raised by trump's dark money pac will never be used to help elect GOP candidates.

I can also see Manchen retiring which means that this senate seat will be lost. I would love to see a Just Us Democrat run for this seat in that I enjoy watching these non-Democrats lose. I trust Joe Biden and I trust the way that Joe is dealing with Manchen in the real world.

[Fiendish Thingy]

150. Thanks for your transparency around your condescending classism

My bad, Despite my graduate degree and two years of Latin, I still didn’t know what AMJURE means. (And my Master’s program was even in the same building as the Law School- we even shared the same lounge!)

I guess since I didn’t speak with the proper “authority” and provide links to the recent actions by Move On and Poor People’s Campaign, that those events didn’t actually happen, and I made it all up. I guess I just imagined all those stories I read on DU, Daily Kos, and on the PPC site itself.

I guess, being the maxed out Biden donor that you are, you are just smarter than I am about everything regarding “Manchen”.









https://www.newsweek.com/15-minimum-wage-protesters-joe-manchin-office-1571232

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/22/us-15-dollar-minimum-wage-joe-manchin-west-virginia

http://www.seiu1199.org/poor-peoples-campaign-event-in-west-virginia/

https://www.wowktv.com/news/west-virginia/rally-held-outside-manchins-state-office-for-15-wage/


https://www.poorpeoplescampaign.org/about/press/sen-manchin-meets-thursday-with-poor-low-wage-workers-from-poor-peoples-campaign-seiu-to-discuss-15-hour/

https://www.poorpeoplescampaign.org/about/press/poor-peoples-campaign-fight-for-15-hour-healthcare-goes-to-offices-of-manchin-other-senators-on-moral-monday/

https://www.theintelligencer.net/news/top-headlines/2021/02/poor-peoples-campaign-calls-out-senator-joe-manchin-on-minimum-wage/

https://wvpress.org/wvpa-sharing/poor-peoples-campaign-calls-out-west-virginias-senator-manchin-on-minimum-wage/

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/poor-peoples-campaign-targets-manchin-in-drive-for-15-minimum-wage/

https://www.wvpublic.org/government/2021-02-22/rally-organized-to-encourage-manchin-to-support-15-an-hour

[LetMyPeopleVote]

151. LOL Thank you for reminding me of all of my law school classmates with master degrees

I had a good number of law school classmates with masters degrees who were really irked that they did poorly in law school. Heck former grad student was on my college bowl team that won the university championship. I was on the winning team in the first year of the return of college bowl before they had limits on the number of grad student who could be on a team and we lost to a team composed of law review members from a good law school. They changed the rules the next year. After I got into law school, we had fun putting a team together with the max number of law students and ended up defeating a team composed of the college debate team.

I still remember the former student body president from my freshman year in undergrad who was in my law school class after getting his masters. It was fun when this idiot asked a really dumb question the first week of class and was told by the professor that his question was a "badge of ignorance". He did not come close to making it onto law review. If fact none of the law students with mstrs did well in law school.

As to your authority, again thank you for the laughs. These small protests will have no effect on Manchin's fate in West Virginia. I got to meet the Rev. Barber at the 2016 national convention (where he was booed at by sanders delegates) and he is an amazing man but his views are not in line with Manchin's base

The sanders supporters tried to primary Manchin a while back and the results amuse me

Link to tweet

[FBaggins]

94. "Prepared to act" how?

Democrats really don't have anything that they can threaten him with.

They can learn to live with his brand of Democrat Lite... or they can get the extra-strength Republican alternative.

There is no third option.

[Fiendish Thingy]

99. So Dems should learn to live with being the minority party for the next 10+ years?

Because that will be the result if Manchin’s obstruction goes unchallenged.

[Demsrule86]

110. Without Manchin and other moderate to conservative Democrats, we will be a minority party

for a decade...we don't have progressives winning seats in WVA, or other red states. That is just a fact. You take Manchin (other conservative / moderate Dems as well) and we get some of what we want...or we get nothing with out him. Also Manchin has already suggested that the Voting rights bill is one where the filibuster threshold could be lowered...now you should probably consider what Sinema will do in this situation...hard case GOP in Arizona who are enacting some truly dangerous legislation like allowing the legislature to overrule the popular vote if they don't like the outcome.

[Fiendish Thingy]

120. We get nothing with him, as long as he obstructs Biden's agenda and voting rights. Nt

[FBaggins]

130. Sorry... that's nonsense

We just "got" a massive stimulus... and there's plenty of reason to believe that a huge infrastructure bill is coming too... and Biden has gotten virtually every nominee confirmed.

None of which would have happened with McConnell in control of the Senate.

Equating not getting something that we want with not getting anything that we want is something that we're supposed to grow out of at about the time we learn to walk.

[Fiendish Thingy]

136. Manchin has said he won't agree to passing infrastructure via reconciliation, so how does it pass? N

[FBaggins]

140. That's dodging the point...

You simply can't pretend that Manchin voting against us 20% of the time is effectively the same things as 100% of the time.

But the answer to your question is simple - you work on an infrastructure bill that can get some republican support. They were pushing for one under Trump for four years and blaming us for it not getting done... now you give them some of what they were asking for then.

Simply put - you need a majority in both chambers in order to pass laws. The smaller your majority, the less you will be able to get done without some cross-party support. And majorities don't get much smaller than this.

[FBaggins]

129. No. They should learn to live in reality

We aren't going to get everything that we want when we have about the narrowest margins in history. Puffing up the importance of whatever the next bill on the list is so that it sounds like the end of the world... doesn't make it true.

[Fiendish Thingy]

135. Well the loss of Dem majorities for 10+ years is the expected outcome by numerous Dems

If HR1 doesn’t pass.

Schumer knows it
Pelosi knows it
Schiff knows it
Warnock knows it
Merkley knows it
Obama knows it (as do many of his prominent former aides)

The entire progressive caucus knows it.

The importance of HR1 is not “puffed up”.

[FBaggins]

138. HR1 isn't going anywhere

All the people you listed know that too. Most of the most effective measures aren't going to get past the current court even if it could get past a filibuster - and that doesn't appear likely.

What they're doing (yes, including the "puffing up&quot is trying to make the Republicans pay the largest possible price.

[Fiendish Thingy]

139. So because SCOTUS might overturn parts of the bills, we should give up?

Getting the bill on front of SCOTUS might be just the trick needed to generate support for court reform.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

152. Joe Manchin Is a Big Overperformer

The real world is a nice place where facts matter. https://politicalwire.com/2021/03/31/joe-manchin-is-a-big-overperformer/

Perry Bacon Jr.: “Because voters increasingly back the same party in congressional and presidential races, only six of the 100 currently serving senators are from a different party than the one their state backed in the 2020 presidential election.

“Even among that group, Manchin stands apart. Hillary Clinton and Biden were completely trounced by Donald Trump in West Virginia in 2016 (42 percentage points) and 2020 (39 points), respectively. But in 2018, Manchin won in West Virginia (by 3 points) despite an aggressive GOP effort to defeat him.”

“In fact, considering the extreme GOP lean in West Virginia, Manchin’s 2012 and 2018 victories are two of the most impressive wins of any American politician in the 21st century.”

[dsc]

38. If we can't pass our agenda

that might wind up being better (other than judges). The fact is we have only two hopes for not getting wiped out in 2022. One is to pass an agenda that includes voting rights, infrastructure and civil rights laws plus other things. the other is to not be able to be blamed for it not passing. Right now we look like we have the power but really don't. That is the worst possible place to be in. We get all of the blame but can't actually do anything. I would vastly prefer option 1 but if we can't get that, the option 2 is our only hope.

[Blaukraut]

40. This!

Manchin has already said he wouldn't be on board with passing an infrastructure bill via reconciliation, and that was the only thing he would have been useful for anymore, in light of how he's dug in on the filibuster. So you're right. Better to be able to say the Republicans stopped the rest of Biden's agenda than having to explain how one Democratic senator held up the entire Senate because of, what? Ego?

[Demsrule86]

50. That is not what he said...he wants the GOP to have a chance to have input and support the bill...

but if they don't he will do the reconciliation bill.

[Blaukraut]

54. From the Axios interview:

"I'm not going to do it through reconciliation," which requires only a simple majority, like the COVID stimulus, Manchin said. "I am not going to get on a bill that cuts them out completely before we start trying."


https://www.axios.com/joe-manchin-infrastructure-bill-c8408e99-17f3-4477-b5df-8e3d537c0bd9.html


Manchin dangles a carrot in one interview (open to reforming filibuster etc etc) only to pull it back in a subsequent interview, like the one from the OP. So how, exactly, is he anything BUT a pain in the ass right now? He can't be relied on to keep his word from one day to the next. I'm sorry, it's really starting to look like he's enjoying being an asshole if it gets him attention.

[Demsrule86]

111. Hmmm...did you look at the last part carefully? And he has made other statements also.

"I am not going to get on a bill that cuts them out completely before we start trying. He wants to give the GOP an opportunity and if they don't take it, I believe he will support the bill.

[wellst0nev0ter]

62. Nailed it. This is exactly what happened in 2010-2012

Democrats had a huge majority, but squandered that power deferring to Lieberman and the rest of the goops.

The Dems ended up passing a stimulus package that was way too small to stimulate the economy fast enough, leaving voters miserable and embittered enough to elect goops.

Dems ended up passing a healthcare law that vulnerable Dems could not support because it did not give people enough visible benefits in a timely manner, and essentially ceded the argument to the goops.

It would be insane to go through those mistakes all over again.

[Hekate]

74. Reading thru this thread I keep hearing Fran Drescher's voice from The Nanny...

...as regards the OP: “You’re a bitter little person, aren’t you?” Someone is going to hang on like grim death to a wish that politics could be perfect if only Dems would run perfect people.

[tirebiter]

34. Biden endorses filibuster overhaul

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/3/17/2021466/-Biden-endorses-filibuster-overhaul

President Joe Biden, fresh off the massive success of passing a $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan, knows the only way to keep the momentum going and get his stuff done is to deal with the Senate. And to deal with the Senate, he's talking filibuster reform. He told ABC's George Stephanopoulos in an interview to be aired Wednesday that he's behind an effort to reform it. "I don't think that you have to eliminate the filibuster. You have to do what it used to be when I first got to the Senate back in the old days," he said. "You had to stand up and command the floor, you had to keep talking [...] so you've got to work for the filibuster."

"So you're for that reform? You're for bringing back the talking filibuster?" Stephanopoulos asked in response. "I am," Biden answered. "That’s what it was supposed to be. It's almost getting to the point where democracy is having a hard time functioning." That's an understatement. The new message from the president—who flirted with the idea of filibuster reform during the primary campaign but never unequivocally backed it—reinforces what amounted to a declaration of intent from Senate leadership on the filibuster...

... So it seems that Democratic leadership, including Biden, have coalesced behind the idea of a talking filibuster, and that might even have been negotiated with at least one of the recalcitrant Democrats, Joe Manchin. Following his day of obstruction on the COVID-19 relief bill, Manchin made the rounds of Sunday shows saying he'd be okay with making the filibuster "a little bit more painful, make them stand there and talk, I'm willing to look at any way we can..."

... When Biden entered the Senate in 1973, the filibuster was a rarity. From 1917 to 1970, there had been a total of 49 filibusters. In 53 years, 49 filibusters. Since McConnell's takeover of the Republican Senate conference, there's been an average of 80 votes each year to end filibusters. That doesn't just block legislation, it ties the Senate in knots. Every cloture vote requires 30 hours of floor time, in which nothing else can be done...

... The filibuster fight is going to happen soon, so we'll see how it plays out. On the Senate floor Wednesday morning, Schumer promised he would bring the elections reform bill, the For the People Act, to the floor. The Senate hearing for the bill is scheduled for next week.

[stillcool]

36. if he gets the spotlight, he's going to use it..

god only knows what he actually wants or who's playing.

[Trueblue1968]

39. i am sorry. i don't like Joe Manchin. He seems to be a bully who wants his own way ALL the time

[Blaukraut]

41. Manchin isn't stupid either, so he's well aware of ALL the consequences if the filibuster stays n/t

[Blue Owl]

43. Your filibuster has grown tiresome... Now we dance!

[JI7]

47. Vermont re- elected the Republican Governor for the 3rd time in a Row

with a huge majority.

Even Vermont doesn't vote for Progress and you think a right wing state that voted for Trump in huge numbers is going to do better.

[Demsrule86]

49. please stop...without Joe we have no majority.

[Fiendish Thingy]

66. And with Joe's continued obstruction, Dems will lose their majorities for 10+ years. Nt

[Demsrule86]

96. We got the relief bill through now didn't we...we would get nothing if McConnell was in charge.

And I believe we will get more and by the way it isn't just Manchin. Why is he always attacked while Sinema and others are given a free ride? That relief bill is the most progressive piece of legislation we have passed since Johnson and Roosevelt. All Democrats voted for it including Manchin and Sinema. We will never have another Democrat is WVA once Manchin is gone.

I suggest you look at the map and tell us how we get majorities without moderate and conservative Democrats. We need more progressives which means, we have to sell the progressive message or we will get what we can with moderates and conservative Democrats which works for me.

And the legislation like the ACA creates a demand for more good legislation. Health care is believed to be a right these day because of the much maligned ACA. And this is historical, we have never had a majority without a big tent. And I would argue their are less liberals/progressives these days...sadly.

[Fiendish Thingy]

100. Without HR1, we get NO majorities for 10+ years

Schumer knows it
Schiff knows it
Pelosi knows it
Merkley knows it
Warnock knows it (he is gone in 2022 if HR1 doesn’t pass)
And Obama knows it.

[Demsrule86]

115. I actually don't agree with this. Although I hope we can pass voting rights...but I don't know how

much will pass court tests. Traditionally, elections are state matters. And we have a very conservative SCOTUS.

[Fiendish Thingy]

122. Well you are at odds with the majority leader, speaker and numerous other Dems

Including Schiff, Merkley, Warnock and Obama.

[ripcord]

57. If he and other Senators don't support getting rid of the filibuster why would they vote for it?

Are democrats now required to vote in lockstep with the party?

[dflprincess]

70. They should vote for getting rid of the filibuster

Because they support the Democratic agenda and want to advance it?

Because they don't want to lose the majorities in the House and Senate in 2022 because nothing got done thanks to their support of the filibuster?

Manchin may be enjoying his moment of power now, but it won't help himin 2022 when he has to run against a Republican who will use his obstructionist ways against him. He is not helping the people in his state with his actions.

And if the Republicans take control in 2022, don't you think they'll get rid of the filibuster then? And we can kiss any chance for progressive legislation goodbye for at least a decade.

[ripcord]

117. So you are saying we don't need individual Senators

We can just vote by party and the party's can make the decisions, no individual thought required.

[dflprincess]

125. Manchin can vote with the Republicans on any piece

of legislation he wants.

If a Democratic senator wants to vote against progress they should have to vote on the issue. Hiding behind the filibuster in its current form is dishonest.

[ripcord]

126. It will become a talking filibuster

Just as our President suggests but it isn't going away.

[Hotler]

60. There's not enough hot sauce for the shit sandwiches Joe keeps

forcing down our throats.

[Silent3]

68. As much as I hate what he's doing, no he doesn't have to get out

You may hate situations like this when someone makes you take their shit because they have the power to do so. I hate situations like this. Everyone hates situations like this.

But if Manchin "gets out", we lose the Senate, and things are worse for us. There's no Democratic who's going to automatically take his seat.

Welcoming the worse situation, just to show how much you loathe how someone is lording it over you that you have to settle for taking a lot of shit, is cutting of your nose to spite your face.

[BGBD]

72. Considering the cyclical

nature of politics, it's pretty foolish to think that Republicans won't have unified government at some points again, probably sooner than you think. Getting rid of the filibuster would essentially make it possible for them to simply use a slim majority to do anything from close the department of education or EPA to getting rid of the minimum wage. Really anything they want they could do.

What stops them is the knowledge that we would do it back to them. You seem to want to launch the nukes and not care about the thousands of them coming right back at us.

[Blaukraut]

73. Nothing stops them and nothing stopped them before

They excepted judges, and later USSC judges for the filibuster and didn't need to nuke it for their only other priority: the Trump tax cut. Do you honestly believe if there was a single piece of legislation they wanted to pass, and the filibuster was still intact, they wouldn't nuke it in a heartbeat?

As it is: With the Dems adhering to the filibuster, HR 1 and the John Lewis bill won't pass and likely cause Dems to lose their majority for a decade or more. Republicans are well aware of this and aren't particularly worried about us getting the trifecta anytime soon after '22.

[BGBD]

131. That's just not true

WE are the ones who excepted judges and they extended it to SCOTUS. The tax cut was done with reconciliation just like the stimulus.

And I do believe that they would keep the filibuster in tack because that's exactly what they have done. There is legislation that they wanted to pass when Trump was in the White House that they were not able to because they knew they didn't have 60 votes to do it.

Ending the filibuster wouldn't be free, it would have a heavy political price and then be used to install every fascist law you can think of.

[onenote]

81. no

And if it could, why would he have to do anything. Do you think that if changing the filibuster rule required 60 votes that the republicans would have any trouble blocking it even if Manchin supported it?

[ancianita]

92. thanks

Guess I'm pretty tired. Shoulda thought of that.

[Joha17]

79. So it is.

[DFW]

88. Other than sending an armed militia to forcibly alter WV's electoral makeup

That state will send either Joe Manchin or Shelley Capito Moore to the Senate.

We’ll get no farther telling Manchin what he “needs” to do than some right wing blog will get telling Lisa Murkowski what she “needs” to do. We play the hand we were dealt, or we declare defeat and leave the table, and that’s not an option for me.

[NurseJackie]

89. A voice of reason. Thank you!

We’ll get no farther telling Manchin what he “needs” to do than some right wing blog will get telling Lisa Murkowski what she “needs” to do. We play the hand we were dealt, or we declare defeat and leave the table, and that’s not an option for me.

This is a much more intelligent response compared to the bitterness and hand-wringing and outright contempt being shown toward a Democrat.

People need to sit down. Calm down... and COUNT THEIR BLESSINGS!! We're damned lucky to have him!

[Politicub]

116. Vent sessions about Manchin are so useless. And make the problem worse..

If we lose Manchin, we lose the ability to set the agenda and calendar of the senate. That means something.

Now, I understand that people are frustrated. I am frustrated, too. But burning the house down to save it will only remove what meager power the Democratic Party has at the moment.

Politics in America is a binary choice among two parties. That’s it. That’s reality. Any arguments that are philosophical at best and not grounded in any kind of objective reality.

The best chance we have to fix some things — or at least try — is HR 1. There is no chance it will pass without Manchin’s support. The GOP will not let go of its effective gerrymandering power, which is what keeps their party in power at the state and congressional representative level.

I’m tired of making this argument, though. I’m also tired of seeing it. It’s damaging. It gives cover to people who think adversarial Republican control is somehow preferable. It’s getting close to the time when Manchin will go on my trash thread list, and I’ll tune back in when there’s something substantive.