If you're worried that Pence or Hawley et al can muck up the works on Wednesday, take heart

[StarfishSaver]

The implementing statutes setting forth the procedure for counting Electoral votes lay out a specific order of business that makes that virtually impossible:

3 U.S. Code § 15 - Counting electoral votes in Congress

Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States, and, together with a list of the votes, be entered on the Journals of the two Houses.

Upon such reading of any such certificate or paper, the President of the Senate shall call for objections, if any.

Please note that the count is recorded FIRST, before any objection is made. And the recording of the count is the official declaration of the winner. Only AFTER the count is recorded and announced can anyone object to it.

So Pence can't refuse to open the envelopes and the tellers can't refuse to record the votes at that point because there will have been no objection to them. And once they record the votes, the winner has been made official and can be undone ONLY if both the House and Senate vote to accept any objection raised to a state's count, at which point the counts for those states will be substracted from the total vote count.

That means the GOP whiners can object all they want, drag the process out for as long as they can, but the winners - Joe Biden and Kamala Harris - will be on the books and, unless they muster the votes to REMOVE a state's counts from that record, they will become president and vice president of the United States at noon on January 20th.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15

[dawg day]

1. Good explanation, thanks.

They object after. So those hours of argument are going to take place only after the count is accepted and Biden is declared winner.

[StarfishSaver]

2. Yes and no

Biden is declared the winner of a particular state and if there's an objection, they recess and vote and then come back and move on to the next state. So it may be awhile before enough votes are recorded to declare Biden the winner of a majority of the Electoral College, but they cannot prevent votes from those states from being recorded and Biden being declared the winner by objecting to the count from that state since the vote is recorded before the objection is made.

Does that make sense?

[dawg day]

3. Yes, so it will take forever.

But in the end...

[StarfishSaver]

5. Yes.

[pnwmom]

76. So, if this entails 12 hours of debate, plus extra time, this won't be getting done on Wednesday,

will it?

[StarfishSaver]

80. I'm hoping that Pelosi and McConnell can work out a way to consolidate the voting

[BumRushDaShow]

74. I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation

and based on how they go through the state roll-call alphabetically, then Biden/Harris should hit over 270 once they tally Virginia. I highlighted the states that will most likely get challenged -

2020 ELECTORAL VOTES BIDEN/HARRIS

.......11 (AZ)
55 (CA)
9 (CO)
7 (CT)
3 (DE)
.......16 (GA)
4 (HI)
20 (IL)
3 (ME)
10 (MD)
11 (MA)
.......16 (MI)
10 (MN)
1 (NE)
.......6 (NV)
4 (NH)
14 (NJ)
5 (NM)
29 (NY)
7 (OR)
.......20 (PA)
4 (RI)
3 (VT)
13 (VA)

---------------
-----281------
---------------

12 (WA)
.......10 (WI)
3 (D.C.)

========================
306
========================

[COL Mustard]

4. This Is Good News

Let’s see if the Senate abides by the rules. I’m pretty sure DJT wouldn’t.

I’ll breathe easier once everything is signed, sealed and delivered, but not until then.

I never thought we’d actually get to a place like this in this country.

[ancianita]

16. What if Pence & co don't abide by the rules? What then?

[StarfishSaver]

25. It doesn't matter

Nothing Pence does or doesn't do can affect the outcome.

[berni_mccoy]

32. He can be replaced as the counter by the Senate Pro Temp

[ancianita]

50. By whom?

[scipan]

57. Chuck Grassley.

Edit: maybe you mean who does the replacement. I don't know the answer to that. Someone proposes it and the Senate votes on it maybe? Or the Senate and the House?

[ancianita]

58. Yes, I meant who does the replacement. Your guess is what I'd have guessed,too.

[scipan]

61. It's a good question. The proposer (mcconnell or schumer probably)

would have to be recognized by the Chair first. Pence? If so, seems like he could rule it out of order.

[ancianita]

62. I hate not to know the stuff they could pull. I won't know what should happen if they do it.

[scipan]

64. Me too. I do know there's a Parlamentarian, who

decides solely based on the rules of the Senate. He can be overridden by a majority vote I believe.

But, Mcconnell wants a strong Senate since that's where his power lies. And Pence just wants to run in 2024 and really doesn't want any part of all this.

[ancianita]

65. If Pence doesn't want any part of this, he's unfit as VP, therefore moreso as president.

I thought I'd be giving up smoking on Inauguration Day, but now I'm not so sure.

[scipan]

71. He's a coward.

I still think Inauguration day will be glorious. And stress reducing. Good luck on the cigs. I've given up on trying to quit but admire anyone who succeeds. ☺️

[ancianita]

73. Yep.

It's only my hundredth time, and am stupidly, finally, scared enough to value oxygen more than nicotine, hoping to deal with politics triggers. Chewing the gum and drinking more water helps.

And I'm doing it for Joe and 2024.

[scipan]

66. I guess they would be operating under some joint rules

of the Senate and House, probably very similar to the usual Senate rules.

[berni_mccoy]

82. Looks like Chuck ain't messin' around

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214808606

[berni_mccoy]

81. Called it!

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214808606

[Mr.Bill]

78. Republicans violating the rules?

Now that's just crazy talk.

[ancianita]

79. And why I had to ask.

[bdamomma]

52. We never thought

we would have a "Russian Ass..et" squatting in the WH either.

[servermsh]

6. And safe harbor

Link to tweet

[ancianita]

19. Thanks! Good to read the law on this.

[Girard442]

7. Legalisms aside, the psychological impact of Biden/Harris being announced the winners will be huge.

By a really fat EC vote margin, no less.

[StarfishSaver]

8. How cool is that?

[Chainfire]

9. We have been dealing with this crap for two months

A few extra hours on Wed. is not going to kill me. In the end, when the dust has settled, I get what I wanted, when Trump is recognized, formally and in public as a LOSER, once again.

[StarfishSaver]

10. Exacrly

The hand-wringing is much ado about nothing.

[MustLoveBeagles]

67. +1

I'd be worried if the House was controlled by Republicans. Speaker Pelosi has got this.

[MineralMan]

11. Exactly. All those Senators and Reps can do is delay the proceedings

for a while. That's it. We have a Democratic majority in the House. There will be no acceptance of any objections. Period.

In fact, there are enough Republicans in the Senate who will vote against such objections to kill them in the Senate, as well.

Pence will preside only in the ceremonial sense, just as he did at the impeachment trial.

[FakeNoose]

12. I still find it hard to believe that Pence would be a party to this

Why would Mike Pence want to give Chump 4 more years - for any reason?

That's a serious question. He's taken abuse and disrespect from Chump for the last 4 years, why would he want to help him now? It wouldn't mean that Mike Pence would get to be Potus himself, because he'll never get that chance. OK maybe he gets to be Potus for half a day, if Chump resigns at the last minute in order for Pence to "pardon" him. That scenario could happen, and it has been suggested by several DUers. (A shoutout to Mineral Man)

But this "coup via Electoral College" scenario is not only absurd, but it also relies on the goodwill of Mike Pence. It assumes he wants to continue the reign of terror by Chump. That's the part I don't get. I believe he's done, and he's ready to retire.

[StarfishSaver]

13. Even if Pence wanted to go along with it, he has no power to do it.

[Chainfire]

53. Pence has gone all in because he has nothing else to lose

With Trump gone, he is a nobody, a footnote in a failed presidency. If Trump is installed as dictator, he thinks he will share power.

These people are nuts!

[FakeNoose]

75. Absolutely, but he knows this is over

As far as I can tell, Pence has never done anything outright illegal as VP. (Well I guess that remains to be seen.) But the entire Chump family & the toadies are in it up to their eyeballs. If this ends now, Pence can retire and not have to worry about going to jail. Of all the evil Repukes involved, he's probably the only one who can say that.

[ancianita]

14. Question about Jan 20: Why noon? Why not one minute after midnight? Is it just a norm? Or law?

I ask because I'd like our new president to command the use of Air Force One from midnight forward, and not allow its corrupt use by the outgoing occupant.

Sounds trivial, but it's not, because that plane is a symbol of power retained, and the public should see immediately on Jan 20 just who commands all things Executive.

Let the occupant find some other way out of DC on Jan 20 without the appearance of power, or dignity, for that matter.

Thanks for your post.

[StarfishSaver]

17. Noon on January 20 is set by the Constitution

[ancianita]

21. Ah. Thanks.

[ga_girl]

33. Historically the new president has allowed a last flight

But if the flight is after noon, the aircraft won't be identified as "Air Force One", but will fly under the aircraft's tail number as Special Air Mission 28000 or 29000.

[ancianita]

38. Cool. But the occupant will say that possession is 9/10ths of his power, just to make the show of it

[Lonestarblue]

15. If recall correctly, Republicans in Georgia and Wisconsin submitted their own slate of electors.

I don’t remember whether Republicans in Pennsylvania and other swing states did the same. What has happened to those alternate, uncertified submissions, and could they be used to try to confuse the count? Only the certified counts should be used, but will they?

[StarfishSaver]

20. Only the certified results will be counted

The mechanism for dealing with conflicting slates of electors applies only when two certified slates are sent in.

[skip fox]

22. I think Arizond Republicans senators did so as well.

[LiberalFighter]

63. 3 U.S. Code § 6 - Credentials of electors

3 U.S. Code § 6 - Credentials of electors; transmission to Archivist of the United States and to Congress; public inspection

It shall be the duty of the executive of each State, as soon as practicable after the conclusion of the appointment of the electors in such State by the final ascertainment, under and in pursuance of the laws of such State providing for such ascertainment, to communicate by registered mail under the seal of the State to the Archivist of the United States a certificate of such ascertainment of the electors appointed, setting forth the names of such electors and the canvass or other ascertainment under the laws of such State of the number of votes given or cast for each person for whose appointment any and all votes have been given or cast;

and it shall also thereupon be the duty of the executive of each State to deliver to the electors of such State, on or before the day on which they are required by section 7 of this title to meet, six duplicate-originals of the same certificate under the seal of the State;

and if there shall have been any final determination in a State in the manner provided for by law of a controversy or contest concerning the appointment of all or any of the electors of such State, it shall be the duty of the executive of such State, as soon as practicable after such determination, to communicate under the seal of the State to the Archivist of the United States a certificate of such determination in form and manner as the same shall have been made;

and the certificate or certificates so received by the Archivist of the United States shall be preserved by him for one year and shall be a part of the public records of his office and shall be open to public inspection;

and the Archivist of the United States at the first meeting of Congress thereafter shall transmit to the two Houses of Congress copies in full of each and every such certificate so received at the National Archives and Records Administration.

[Gymbo]

18. The Problem

as I see it, lays down the birth of a Fascistic movement. If we allow this movement to grow, what do you think happens when these people gain both the Congress, and the White House? Logically, they throw away any election they don't like. These are dangerous times, I hope we are ready for this if it comes down to it.

[BlueIdaho]

29. The Solution

Is at the ballot box. 2022 is just over the horizon and the next chance to show these fuckers that traitors will not be tolerated. We must insist that change happens at the ballot box not at the point of a gun.

[KPN]

36. The solution is Jan 5 in Georgia actually and hopefully.

[BlueIdaho]

39. That is a good start!

But there will be more vulnerable republicans in 2021. Our job is to use every opportunity remove these traitors from government.

[KPN]

42. Agreed.

[David__77]

69. That movement already existed. It has been growing for years.

And defeating it is not primarily a matter of relying on police or courts.

[George II]

23. Thank you. Other than being embarrassed by these people or the time wasted, I'm not worried.

[LiberalArkie]

24. In my opinion, none of this is to keep Trump in office it is to cause violence.

It is to get people more upset than they are. To cause even more people to not trust authority.

The civil disobedience that the liberals used to be so proud of. Of standing up to the dogs and firetrucks to make our points do not work any more as the other side also practices it. That scares me as I see no way of demonstrating against the evil anymore.

[RicROC]

26. Constitutional Duty?

I've read that some of these Repubs are stating it is their 'constitutional duty' to object to the Presidential election.

OKKKKKKK, if that is their rational, then it is the Constitutional Duty of our representatives to demand that those rogues publicly restate their oath of allegiance to the Constitution of the US before they are allowed to take their seats in either house.

I would demand they do it individually in front of their respective body and not as a group.

[COL Mustard]

43. Here's The Oath Senators Take. They Already Do Swear Allegiance To The Constitution. The Question

Is, do they believe it?



I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

[COL Mustard]

44. And Here's The Oath House Members Take, Actually In About Five Minutes From Now.

“I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

[DAngelo136]

27. If I May...

The Electoral College count could be compared to a wedding ceremony.
Of course the bride and groom would have already have had the marriage license in hand and already registered all witnesses before the day of the ceremony. The ceremony itself would just be a formality overseen by whatever religious official designated by the couple.

With all of that, lets say the ceremony takes place; vows are exchanged and it comes to the point where the person officiating asks "If anyone has any objection. Let him speak now or forever hold his peace." Of course, no one does. The purpose of asking had more do with legalities in ancient times than anything else. But of course, there not being ANY legal bearing or standing whatsoever, the ceremony concludes and the now married couple goes on with life.

The Republicans are acting like that jilted suitor who objects at a wedding. Boorish as it is, it would not stop the wedding whatsoever nor would it shake confidence in the institution of marriage (Marriage itself does a fine job of that, IMHO) So, the ensuing assholery being attempted by the Republican contingent should be seen as nothing more than a stunt by a bunch of sore losers who can't take the fact that the country rejected their proposal and chose a better suitor...Joe Biden.

[StarfishSaver]

30. Nice analogy.

[JackHughes]

28. More worrisome is a "mob veto"

Trump has invited armed sedition to the streets of DC on January 6. They may try to storm the Capitol to prevent certification.

Hopefully DC and federal law-enforcement is prepared.

[StarfishSaver]

31. You ever been to the Capitol?

It's hard enough to get in if you're SUPPOSED to be there. These fools won't come close to be able to storm it. And I doubt they'll even try.

And Trump and his folks just announced the rally will be on the Ellipse near the White House, so most of his goons will probably be nearly two miles away from the Capitol - And I doubt many of them would bother to make that walk, especially since it's up a steep hill...

[gab13by13]

45. I thought weapons were illegal there, no?

[gab13by13]

48. I looked it up,

You can't open carry a hand gun or long gun in D.C. You can carry with a concealed permit but said permit must be issued in the D.C. District. Also loaded guns are prohibited in vehicles.

There shouldn't be weapons at the protest so I put my money on weaponized LE.

[bdamomma]

54. Again, tRump

pumping hate and chaos to suit his needs, again he will fail. He's a rat chasing his own tail.

[Tarc]

34. Mike Pence is basically the Vanna White of Electors

There's nothing he can do.

[StarfishSaver]

35. Great description!

[Thekaspervote]

37. Ha..that's the best description yet!!

[KPN]

40. This is all about stage craft. Ultimately, what they

hope to craft is their own election as President in 2024 or 28, or at least their own re-election the next time they’re in the chute. A side benefit would be to stir up some chaos in the streets of DC and cities across the nation for tRump to declare Marshall law in the hopes of delaying the transfer of power - but that is about as likely as me physically leaving this galaxy in my lifetime.

Edit: That doesn’t mean this isn’t seriously harmful to the stability and security of our nation both in the short and long-term and should not be viewed as seditious. It most certainly is ... and those carrying it out are smart enough to know that and therefore need to be held accountable. At a minimum, they should be stripped of their office.

[Fiendish Thingy]

41. This is great information, but unfortunately Joe won't hit 270 until Vermont's result are read

That means 5 of the six swing states will come before he hits 270, meaning approximately 10 hours of desperately futile Republican delay...

[IsItJustMe]

46. All the electorial slates are read and recorded first before they are allowd to object. It's

already a done deal.

[Fiendish Thingy]

49. Not from the clips I've seen of Gore in 2001 and Biden in 2017

Per the OP (last sentence), The VP asks for objections after each state’s certificate is read, not after all 50 states results have been entered into the record.

So, 10 hours of delay is likely before the record reflects that Biden has 270 EV’s.

The thing I’m curious about is the debate process, and will it be televised - each party selects 6 speakers who have 5 minutes each to present their arguments. I’m guessing that McCarthy will select from the 140 seditious GOP reps, but I’m unsure if Mitch will pick Hawley to speak, or any of the other senators who hope to get the 2024 nomination...would be sweet if he picked Romney, Murkowski, Sasse, etc., and they refused to yield to Hawley, Rubio, Cruz, etc.

[StarfishSaver]

51. I'm not sure about that

I think, under the statute, as soon as a state's envelope is opened, the result is recorded and then objections are heard for that state. If there is an objection signed by a House Member and Senator, the joint session recesses and the two chambers debate and vote on the objection for that state.

It may be possible to consolidate the debates and votes, so they don't have to keep trooping back and forth but I'm not sure what the process for that would be.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

47. Will Trump insist that he or his supporters be present as the votes are counted?

It would be consistent with his actions to date.

We already know the Repugs will blow off the law and try to object before the votes are tallied.

[StarfishSaver]

56. The House and Senate determine their own rules, including who can be present in the chamber

They have no obligation to allow the head of another branch of government to be in their chamber.

In fact, the president must be invited - as we see when the State of the Union address is made only upon the invitation of the Speaker.

So, he can insist all he like that he or his people be present. But there's nothing he can do about it.

And if Republicans try to object before the votes are tallied, they'll just be ruled out of order and the proceedings will continue. And if they try to disrupt the proceedings, the Speaker can have the Sergeant-at-Arms remove them from the chamber - because, remember, they'll be in NANCY'S house that day.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

59. Thank you for the summary.

After all that's gone on in the legal and political environments, I was concerned that Trump's goons will resort to force to keep the electoral vote from proceeding. I have to trust there are enough peace officers to repel any attempt to physically disrupt the process. I can't believe I have to even consider this. I thought Nixon was a dangerous crook, but he looks like a choir boy next to Trump.

[StarfishSaver]

60. There is absolutely no way these raggedy-assed goons can storm the Capitol

But the fact that this is even being discussed is scary and bizarre.

[llashram]

55. this

Yet it is a travesty that I as an older American citizen of mixed-race parentage residing in Arica during these days have been watchful and wary. have been subjected to in the last four years. The last election and this bold 'coup' attempt by the fascist faction of the New Fascist led Republican Party, 21st century. The last 60 or so days, have been the most politically tumultuous I have ever experienced, at the federal level. The fascists and political opportunists are looking for permanent power. No more opposition. So it will be the blue and the reds this time. Possibly? With a little light purple in the mix. It has been nothing but in our face boldly screaming, "fuck the Constitution". I want money and power. Pandemic be damned! I am hopeful all this goes as did with Hitler's 'beer hall putsch' in 23'. Well? Here we are almost 100 years later and ...

It's Sunday, so I'll say amen to your OP.

[Skeptical Thomas]

68. McConnell's Against It, Astonishingly Enough

Ditto for Romney, Murkowski, and Twomey.

Coup Cerrado!

[David__77]

70. We will see.

I would not be surprised if Pence makes statements that are not aligned with the law. I would not be surprised if at the end of the day Republicans claim Trump is the legal winner to be inaugurated.

[StarfishSaver]

72. Pence can say whatever he wants and Republicans can claim whatever they

It doesn't matter. Joe Biden and Kamala Harris will become president and vice president at noon on January 20.

[Gothmog]

77. This is a stunt that will not work