Something I think we should all consider in terms of COVID death numbers.

[redstatebluegirl]

A friend who came out of retirement to work at a hospital in Florida told me a story last night. She said the she had lost 3 patients she directly cared for in the last week. She said in two of the cases the families fought with the hospital about saying that COVID was the cause of death.

They insisted that their loved ones died of old age (one was 65 one was 58) not COVID. They told her when she called them to tell them their loved one had died that "COVID was a hoax" it was like the flu, it kills old people with pre-existing conditions. She said she gave up arguing with them. She said in both cases they were more concerned with what the death certificate said than losing their loved one. One family hired a lawyer because they insist he died of complications of diabetes not COVID. He was on a vent after fighting covid for 9 days.

These people are flat out members of a cult, they are brainwashed. There is no real reason to even try to talk to them since they are not living in the real world.


I bet the numbers are bigger than what we see.

[Hugin]

1. I've seen it said the numbers may be 10x higher than reported...

in some areas.

58? Old age? Yikes!

:decrepit:

[DENVERPOPS]

22. No kidding

Not only in the U.S., but much higher in China, India, Russia, etc than they are or have reported....

My mind always goes to the movies, showing "Zombies" blindly walking down the street looking for living people to attack.
Really! This Covid thing started out as a potential world ending scenario like shown in sci-fi or disaster movies and has progressed from there.
What people are failing to recognize, is there are a thousand animal viruses out there right now that could enter the human body and go wild.........

Covid is merely the harbinger of the future potential outbreaks......

[peanut57]

60. Remember the show Last Man on Earth?

Didn`t a virus wipe out most of humanity?

[Sugarcoated]

71. That movie sparked my fascination

with apocalyptic end of the world books/movies. I read The Stand the year it came out, I think I was 13, that sealed the genre deal for me.

[jaxexpat]

75. Ice Nine

[aggiesal]

83. I know right? I'm 58, and I don't feel old. ...

In fact, I remember growing up around 10 years old, how the people that had lived through WWII
could possibly remember stuff so vividly from 30 years ago.

Yet I remember stuff vividly from when I was 28 years old.
I'm still pretty active, umpiring baseball games from ages 8 - 22 years old.
I definitely don't feel my muscle aching daily, unless I umpire 4 games the day before.

[Frustratedlady]

2. I have noticed that many obits of people I know died of COVID, do not state that.

I don't know the answer to deprogramming these people. You'd think that when they hit the wall, it would dawn on them that apparently COVID isn't a hoax. If you listen to Trump spew out his lies, you might understand why they are so loyal to his message. To me, it is one of the most mysterious situations of our lifetime.

Hopefully, Trump will end up in prison or run off to the Middle East and his absence will finally allow his followers to get back to normal...or not.

[AwakeAtLast]

9. In some states cause of death is not listed in the obituary

It is a privacy issue.

[Frustratedlady]

10. I realize that, but many do here. It is also helpful for family history health issues. n/t

[sorcrow]

51. Obituaries are not death certificates

Obituaries are usually written by the family and placed in local newspapers for a fee. Many do not state a cause of death.

Regards,
Crow

[AwakeAtLast]

54. I was directly replying to a post about obituaries

I'm well aware of the difference between the two, thank you!

[milestogo]

3. Cause of death is a medical determination.

Granted, there can be circumstances in which there are multiple factors, or the cause isn't clear. But most of the time it should be the pathologist or treating physician who determines this. Its not up to the family.

[Laelth]

5. It's up to the coroner, I think. n/t

-Laelth

[aggiesal]

84. I believe the coroner determines the cause of death when the person is not ...

under the direct doctors supervision at the time of death.

Otherwise, the supervising doctor makes the call.

In these 2 cases of Covid-19, regardless of what the 2 Covidiot families want.

[Laelth]

86. Interesting.

I really don’t know on this one, but I will take your word for it with the assumption that the rule varies by jurisdiction.

-Laelth

[aggiesal]

88. Well, ask yourself why some deaths require an autopsy and others don't? ...

Usually, an autopsy is performed because a death occurred without being supervised by a doctor,
so that they can determine the cause of death. Or even to determine if foul play was involved.

[Laelth]

90. That makes sense. n/t

-Laelth

[redstatebluegirl]

7. I know that, however I have to wonder if medical personnel and hospitals are so tired and overworked

they bend to the will of these nuts who are willing to hire a lawyer to fight cause of death on a certificate.

[GusBob]

8. Our father had advanced dementia at his death

But our family requested a specific cause other than that on the death certificate

The certifying physician said this happens all the time and listed what killed him, heart failure

[JanMichael]

58. I've heard stories from a fundy that people do argue cause and sometimes threaten,

to sue. This is in a dumfuckistan county in the south. "no she died of syphilis!. That preferred as a lie to say it wasn't COVID.

[soldierant]

66. I have always thought the diarrhea-gonorrhea story was just a joke

(the widow wanted him to be remembered as a sport rather then "the s--t that he was&quot , but now I'm wondering if it really happened once.

[FakeNoose]

65. You'd think so, but the precedent was set during the AIDS epidemic

So many relatives of the victims fought over the AIDS cause of death, that a lot of physicians and hospital teams relented and allowed it to be changed to something - anything - else.

So there you go, we set up the stage 35 years ago. Now it's possible for the RWNJs to deny that a pandemic is happening right before our eyes.

[aggiesal]

85. The way I look at this is an analogy ...

A person is diagnosed with terminal cancer and is told they only have months to live.

In their grief, that person heads to the bar and gets drunk.
Jumps in his/her car and tries to drive home while drunk.

Unfortunately, driving at full speed runs into a brick wall and dies instantly.
So, did the person die of cancer or from hitting the brick wall?

Obviously the brick wall.

In this case the brick wall was covid-19.

[Laelth]

4. Frustrating. Infuriating. Depressing. Exhausting.

Trying to shine the light of truth and reason into a darkness that refuses to be illuminated ... I give credit to your friend for continuing to fight the good fight.

And I weep for her too.



-Laelth

[Hermit-The-Prog]

6. The whole Republican party is a death cult, spreading disinformation to suck in more victims!

[Hekate]

11. Doncha know that hospitals write in COVID because they get more money?

Nobody in the cult ever explains how it is that hospitals get paid for dead patients.

[nature-lover]

23. I heard this from a friend the other day. Would like to hear the origin of this, or maybe not.

[niyad]

37. The last idiot I heard this from, I said, "you are telling me that the same insurance companies

that reject claims, refuse to authorize treatments, hold up death benefits, the companies that don't part with a penny unless forced to. . .you are telling me that these same companies are willingly paying bounties, paying extra? Prove it to me. Show me their financial statements in their quarterly reports."

Mumble. Mumble. Quick change of subject.

[PatSeg]

40. They must be getting paid by George Soros

That guy must be worth trillions of dollars the way he throws his money around!!!

[yellowdogintexas]

63. Still waiting for my check for the 2017 Women's March nt

[PatSeg]

73. Must have got lost in the mail!

Of course, he's paid so many people for so many things, I suppose a few got overlooked.

[BainsBane]

12. they are trash

call it like it is.

[greenjar_01]

13. It happens in the other direction, too

Some states refuse to test people who died (say, at home) if they had some preexisting condition. "Under the care of a doctor for X..." and mark that down as cause of death rather than even trying to test for COVID. I'd bet we're closer to 400,000 than 300,000 at this point.

[redstatebluegirl]

16. My friend thinks it is close to half a million at this point.

She agrees with your premise that people are dying at home without care and if they haven't been tested you don't know.

[Mariana]

30. My mother-in-law died at home (not from Covid-19, this was before).

Our copy of her Texas death certificate just says, "Natural causes".

[gab13by13]

14. Just think how many people

indirectly die from Covid. Covid is taking up most of the hospital rooms so people get turned away or stay at home and die from non-Covid illnesses because there is no room at the hospital for them.

[cannabis_flower]

21. I have a friend....

who has a lump between her breast and her armpit that has grown from pea size to golf ball size since earlier this year but they aren’t doing any but the most urgent surgery.

[Hekate]

41. That is scary as hell. Is there any place at all that just does outpatient surgeries ...

...that she could go to for a lumpectomy? Just doing that could be a lifesaver. If the lab work is bad news, it would certainly bump her case up to “urgent.”

[cannabis_flower]

64. She's finally. ..

Scheduled for surgery Wednesday. I hope it goes well.

[Hekate]

70. Fingers crossed

[Habibi]

52. Jesus. That sounds pretty urgent to me!

Is there another hospital system she can go to? I'm so sorry; she must be crazy with anxiety.

[iluvtennis]

15. So now one can hire a lawyer to tell a doctor/hospital what someone died of - Unbelievable.

[redstatebluegirl]

17. There are lawyers that will take any case for money.

In this case a fool and his money are soon parted. Remember these are the same people who send 45 their hard earned cash.

[iluvtennis]

18. + agree. But it shouldn't be allowed. The doctors are the domain experts and know what affliction

resulted in the death of a patients. So tired of trumpians getting out of their lanes to dictate to experts who know.

[Mariana]

28. No. They can try, but they'll almost certainly fail.

I believe it's a crime for a doctor to falsify a death certificate.

[rwsanders]

19. I wish I had original sources to point you to, but those that study statistics on death say

we were well over 300,000 excess deaths for the year MONTHS ago. I believe that was back in September. Even that doesn't show the full extent of the problem as they say what social distancing is there has probably prevented more flu deaths. So we are probably well into the 400,000+ range by now.
And the number of cases is probably low because of all the carriers and people who won't go to the doctor who had mild cases that are never reported.
Plus we have officials in states like FL who are trying to actively participate in the cover up. Over an average summer FL normally has about 900 flu deaths. Well over the past summer they reported about 4000.

[ananda]

20. I was talking to a family member Saturday and..

she thinks that both the number of cases and
the death total are double what's reported.

I tend to agree.

[Mariana]

26. I don't know if it's double, but it's certainly significantly higher. nt.

[ancianita]

24. Being evangelical can condition one for cult groupthink, too.

71 million voters still break down into religious groups that have anti-abortion in common regardless of location, and mostly white rural voters. They have believer habits in common.

They might say they only want Trump, but without him they'd still follow the next anti-abortion, xenophobic, "religious" white Republican.

I've read their use of prayer comments on social media and how even pro-science people who live among them can't convince believers to live smart, and not just pray.

The following good sense comments get ignored...

-- Jesus doesn't teach Christians to use faith as a substitute for brains God gave them.
-- The best of religion says that h.s. science and prayer are not contradictory.

-- Would Jesus tell them to risk death for money?
-- Christian pharisees tell them they can have it both ways -- go to work and pray.
-- Praying to overcome a virus or elections is religious malpractice.

imo, it looks as if most evangelical religions tend to teach that believers can be safe by praying. Then believers forget about Jesus and reinforce each others' misbegotten 'faith' on social media.

This is their real world. And these comments show a reflexive turn to helplessness and prayer in that world. Which works in tandem with corporate pressure to make bucks, pay bills.

71 million voters isn't the usual definition of a cult.
But common religious/corporate ideas do form realities that just seem cult-like to us.

If they form a cult, it's from being conditioned to devalue their own lives & souls (call it mislaid faith) every bit as much as corporate employers and their political leaders devalue them.
Religion and companies' cumulative effect is a mentality of "sacrifice," so that a few million dead believers in a nation run like a business is still about winning.

To me we're describing a win-win church and corporate state alliance.

[NoRoadUntravelled]

43. This all makes a great deal of sense.

If only cult members could be convinced with logic.....

[ancianita]

45. Which is what I'm going for in looking at the 71 million, lest we confuse them with the cult.

Of the 90 million evangelicals in the US, there are millions of evangelicals who didn't vote for Trump, many millions more who probably didn't vote at all.

So the cult part is real and not necessarily religious, just wacko. The other evangelicals have reasons for sticking with the party and they are the larger part of the 71 million who voted for him.

[NoRoadUntravelled]

50. I find this very interesting. I've never really thought about the number of adherents

in the various Christian denominations. I had no idea whatsoever that there was such a large number of evangelicals.

[ancianita]

53. Worth really seeing. Because we see the cult doesn't mean we should be blindsided by the rest.

I had no idea, either. Just googled it.

And get this. There are over 120 million mainline Protestants, with 3/4 of the nation identifying as Christian. What percentage of any of them still voted for Trump. The referendum was on the validation of what he did in their name, no matter how un-Christian. It's a real eye opener. Even more surprising to me is that the Church of the Latter Day Saints is reported as the fastest growing denomination.

Of course, millions of mainline Protestants along with Catholics, Jews and every other religion probably voted against the occupant. Maybe the polls have been wrong because polls don't quite hit their issues. I don't really know.

But I'm pretty sure we'd do well to consider the differences between the cult, Trumpism and Trump voters. Making up 71 million of the electorate, they can't just be called one thing.

The weirdest group, to me, are the Independent voters who number 950,274 in battlegrounds, and 1,948,594 in non-battlegrounds. I'd love to see an opinion poll from them, which could also reveal some outlier folk, if not cultish.

[NoRoadUntravelled]

56. Fascinating.

Thanks again for taking the time to share this.

As you say, we'd do well to consider them not as one group but to see the differences between cult, Trumpism and Trump voters. It sure seems that looking at this more closely can inform election strategies for the future.

[ancianita]

57. ...

If the party's as smart as I think it is, it will definitely look beyond the rallies and chanters.

71 million is too big to treat as a monolith.

[NoRoadUntravelled]

59. Absolutely. nt

[Mariana]

25. The numbers are, in fact, bigger than what we see.

The number of excess deaths this year is significantly greater than the Covid-19 death count. Especially early on, it seems some Covid-19 deaths were mistakenly listed as something else. This makes sense, because the doctors weren't as familiar with the clinical signs of Covid-19 then, and tests were scarce.

I believe it's a crime for a doctor to knowingly put false information on a death certificate.

[Drb2072]

27. Its over 600k deaths above the median

I just looked the other week, the CDC publishes deaths by year as well as an upper bound for estimates.

We are over 600k deaths for any reason over the median of the same for the past 8 years, and over 50k above the upper bound of the estimated deaths including and accounting for the 290k the COVID deaths.

Years from now when they report death estimates from COVID in the US, you can bet they will use these excess deaths figures.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

[barbtries]

29. the numbers are definitely bigger than what's reported.

that's been true from the start and not just from cult members state of denial. I have a friend who is pretty deep into trump and early on in the pandemic, his father was dying from cancer at 88. He literally got pissed off at the very thought that covid might be put on his dad's death certificate. I said at the time if his direct cause of death is covid, you can insist that the cancer also be listed on the death certificate. I told him about how my mom died of cancer 5 months after having a catastrophic stroke and both were on her death certificate.

At any rate his dad passed without controversy. Crazy thing about this friend is he's the last republican i know who i can talk to. the last one who i can listen to and who can listen to me from polar opposite sides of a very wide divide. plus he got me the 2 contract jobs i'm working on, which have been a godsend financially.

so I'm old enough to die from old age at the ripe old age of 65 eh? that's some super level denial.

sigh.

[redstatebluegirl]

35. Me too, I just turned 65 this year.

[barbtries]

39. August 26

[redstatebluegirl]

77. And I can still hop, slower than I used to but I can do it!

[aggiesal]

87. The way I look at this is an analogy ...

A person is diagnosed with terminal cancer and is told they only have months to live.

In their grief, that person heads to the bar and gets drunk.
Jumps in his/her car and tries to drive home while drunk.

Unfortunately, driving at full speed runs into a brick wall and dies instantly.
So, did the person die of cancer or from hitting the brick wall?

Obviously the brick wall.

In this case the brick wall was covid-19.

[barbtries]

91. it's a good analogy. nt

[Authentically Adrian]

31. i agree

I agree with this and I am sorry this happened.
Some people are so scared of the truth they deny it.

[NoRoadUntravelled]

44. Welcome to DU!

[no matrix]

32. Biden will create a bill to help the cost of

Covid-19.

Don't the lawyers have some responsibility in counseling these grieving families?

Could be a clause in personal life insurance about dying from a pandemic?

[NoRoadUntravelled]

46. Welcome to DU!

[Trailrider1951]

33. Here is the latest data I can find about excess deaths during 2020

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

Last update: 4 December 2020

Scroll about halfway down the page for the graph showing USA numbers


And here:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771761

Quote: Of the 225 530 excess deaths, 150 541 (67%) were attributed to COVID-19. unquote.
This is from March 1, 2020 to August 1, 2020. God knows it's probably much worse now

[NoRoadUntravelled]

47. Thanks for posting these links.

Very helpful.

[bucolic_frolic]

34. Goodness 65 year olds haven't died of old age since about 1875

I've looked at a few death certificates for genealogy purposes; the primary cause of death is the listed cause, there may be others listed as well.

If someone with heart disease is killed in a car crash, we say the cause of death was a car crash, not heart disease.

[aggiesal]

89. Read my #87 reply (Great minds think alike!) n/t

[LiberalArkie]

36. To acknowledge that they died of Covid means that they were wrong to have not worn a mask.

Or wrong to have believed that Covid is a hoax. A lot of people can not handle the concept of being wrong. They can not handle that a childs birth parents genes caused the child to have Aspergers.

[RVN VET71]

38. I hope these pathetic easy marks are not advertising their concerns

They would be such easy prey for any con-artist offering to "represent" them should they decide to sue the hospital. of course any such suit would be thrown out, but not until after the marks pay hefty up front fees to the con-artist.

As far as sympathies: I have none, absolutely not a drop or grain of it. People like this are so far into the trump cult that, if called upon to cut the throats of unbelievers, they would, without hesitation. Their "loved ones" died and the only thing they are concerned about is that these medical people are claiming it was from "the covid."

Died of old age at 58? Jaysus, that's a claim so stupid as to be beyond belief -- except it was actually made.

[Pobeka]

42. I think the NY Times has done a thoughtful analysis of excess death. It's frequently updated.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/05/us/coronavirus-death-toll-us.html

They have it at 345,000 as of Dec 2.

[NoRoadUntravelled]

48. Thanks for posting this link.

[AlexSFCA]

49. this is just beyond insane

[Illumination]

55. Absolutely. Have experienced people not wanting to call a spade a spade also...

..... .....You're right. The #s are MUCH higher!... .....

[progree]

61. Startling graph from Minnesota: 40% of recent deaths are respiratory (normally 5-10%)

Also, 1 in 3 recent deaths are tied to Covid

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/12/06/latest-on-covid19-in-mn

Minnesota’s daily death counts from COVID-19 have been especially hard to handle over the past two months. More than 1,100 people died in November alone, about 30 percent of the total in the entire pandemic.

It’s now killing Minnesotans at a rate far higher than any recent flu season. Roughly one-third of all recent deaths in Minnesota are tied to COVID-19.



In the past few years, respiratory illnesses have been a major contributing factor in about 5 to 10 percent of all deaths in Minnesota, depending on the time of year.

They accounted for around 20 percent of deaths during the state’s May COVID-19 wave. Now it’s even higher: nearly 40 percent of all deaths in Minnesota in recent weeks have been attributed to a respiratory illness such as COVID-19, influenza or pneumonia.

There are other articles that say that flu deaths are way down. So Covid is not only replacing flu deaths, but adding many more deaths.

In case some fuckhead tells you its just the flu and we didn't shut down over the flu since 1918 or so, so why are we doing it now (yes, saw that kind of crap many times on the Havens Garden Facebook page -- a rogue bar that remains open despite shutdown orders for all bars and restaurants https://www.facebook.com/havensgardenmn -- people there who are pushing back would no doubt very much appreciate a "Like" to their posts).

Then there are postings like if you are such a scaredy cat, then stay home but don't tell me not to go out and have fun, that's my choice to take the risk, FREEDUM, (in their sociopathic minds there's no concept of how spreading this shit around infects people who are choosing not to take risks, such as vulnerable people who, no matter how much effort they make to isolate etc., still get it, e.g. from caregivers who are also doing their utmost to stay clean).

And its not my choice to pay your hospital bills through higher insurance rates and taxes.

Anymore than say a drunk driver isn't just putting themselves at risk, but everyone else on the road (or sidewalk), and we all pick up most of their medical bills, including the insured ones.

[Hestia]

62. Here, they put pneumonia with COVID complications or some such

Boy, these people are dumb. Hospitals get reimbursement from the Feds if COVID is the diagnosis; anything different, insurance is billed. Now, will the family members have to pay the difference since they insisted upon a differing diagnosis? If I were the hospital, I'd send the bill, and if they don't pay, turn it over to collections. It was all their insistence after al...

[TNNurse]

67. Just so you know, people have been crazy for years.

I had a patient die from COPD after long term ventilator treatment, one family member said "well, at least he did not die from cancer". I so wanted to say....He is still dead, but I did not.

[redstatebluegirl]

69. When I was in college I worked as a clerk in

the emergency room. Saw some crazy things for sure.

[BobTheSubgenius]

68. This idiotic idea is on a par with flat earth.

It is just as ridiculous, but they vary in one crucial detail. No one will die because people believe we live on a disc instead of a globe.

[yuiyoshida]

72. I Will take that bet ..

cause i know she is right.

[UpInArms]

74. If they aren't sick, why are they in the hospital?

Diabetes does not put someone on a vent.

[redstatebluegirl]

78. Exactly, my Dad was diabetic and lived to be 80.

[Pugee]

76. I do think the numbers are higher

My mom passed away last week in a nursing home. She had "recovered" from Covid a week before, took a turn and died within hours. The nursing home had called me with updates from the nurse sitting with her, and said to be aware, other residents had recovered a few days before and then died in their sleep. The funeral home, in a totally different, small, rural, town, said they are very busy lately and they are hearing the same story about people recovering and then just passing away suddenly. The death certificate said heart issues and alzheimers, Covid was not even mentioned.

[redstatebluegirl]

80. My friend said the same thing.

She said COVID impacts your entire system. You have to think that if people hadn't had it their lifespan would have been longer. What makes me nuts is they don't trust the medical professionals and scientists.

[marble falls]

79. How many non-Covid Diabetic patients are on ventilators? Not too many. My MiL started ...

... that last Saturday, saying that when a COPD patient gets Covid, he really died of COPD. I asked her what goes on the death certificate if I know I'm dying of cancer next week and walking out of the clinic a runaway bus runs me over: cancer or the bus.

[Blue Owl]

81. K&R for visibility

[eallen]

82. The major reason the actual number of deaths than the counts...

Is that many people will die, not in a hospital, never diagnosed with Covid-19.

[BobTheSubgenius]

92. This mindset is as ridiculous as that of flat-earthers, but varies in one crucial way.

No one is dying because people think we live on a disc.