Lawrence just had Dr Vin Gupta on explain that herd immunity does not work. Sweden is suffering.

[progressive nobody]

Highest numbers when compared with other Scandinavian countries and Europe.

[Thekaspervote]

1. Yes, their minister of health has admitted they should have done like their neighboring countries

[Blue_true]

2. A DU member put up an OP saying that Sweden never was trying for herd immunity.

I fault the leaders there for not making that crystal clear from the outset.

The German model seem to be the one that we should copy. It relies on masks, cleaning, social distancing and robust contact tracing and localized lockdowns. China is back on track and I used it as a model earlier tonight, but then I came to my senses, can’t use a place where people that don’t do things exactly as told could end up lost in jail. Germany is a better model.

[Codeine]

6. Who knows what the actual story in China is?

Their official numbers hold very little water, honestly.

[Blue_true]

9. Yes. I think that they are more honest than Trump, but that isn't saying much. nt

[moondust]

3. Dr. Haseltine of Harvard Med School

just told Don Lemon that Sweden has had 10 times the death rate of the other Scandinavian countries.

[Cicada]

5. Dr Haseltine has good judgment

He seems to have a good sense of what info is reliable and what Is not. Watching all kinds of experts this year I now put Haseltine in the voice of God category. I trust his judgment more than anyone else’s.

[moondust]

7. Yes, very credible.

[mr_lebowski]

4. Herd immunity absolutely does 'work', it's a critical reason why vaccination is so important

However, getting to the level where you have 'herd immunity' for deadly disease with OUT the benefit of a vaccine (and a high level of compliance with its use) ... typically involves a shit load of death, and could take a really long time to reach.

[Blue_true]

10. There is increasing data that says that immunity to SARS-COV-2

only lasts 3-4 months. That means that unless a vaccine is an oral one that can be taken at home, people will need to go to a clinic or Doctor 3-4 times a year. That simply won’t work. There is no vaccine for the common cold and people can catch one anytime of the year, even though Winter and Fall are worse. SARS-COV-2 has shown that it is capable of ripping through people anytime of year, I am not sure that there is going to be an effective vaccine for it, mostly because if people need to do a public health activity more than once, they will skip out on some of those actions, that is before we get to the anti-Vax boneheads.

[mr_lebowski]

11. Well, yeah ... herd immunity does depend on the bodies ability to maintain resistance

So if this 'increasing data' you speak of is borne out, then yes, there may never be proper herd immunity from COVID, specifically.

From what I've read the reason there's no vaccine against colds is that it mutates too quickly and it's too mild of a disease anyway ... to bother trying.

We'll have to see if SARS-COV-2 acts like colds, or more like flu strains.

[Blue_true]

13. SARS-COV-2 is a cousin to the common cold coronaviruses.

I am no expert in that area, but off the top, that would say that it is more likely to act like the common cold from an immunity standpoint. Empirical data on it spreading wildly during the Summer both indoors and it appears, outdoors, implies that it is behaving more like the common cold than the seasonal flu in terms of when it infects a person.

[Celerity]

8. it's bollocks, we never were trying for herd immunity, they are gaslighting

Last edited Tue Sep 1, 2020, 01:42 AM - Edit history (1)

it is shameful

and no we do not have the highest number in in Europe in terms of deaths per million, and we will soon be passed up by the US and Brasil in deaths per million globally, thus knocking us out of the top 10

multiple nations will start to surge past us



that top 10 is bogus anyway, as so many nations are doing fuckall for testing and reporting

these the 15 nations with 100 million of more in population (Vietnam soon will pass 100 million)

if you believe these numbers on this, I have a bridge in London to sell you, real cheap




Now, in terms of Sweden again,

We certainly are not without our HUGE issues

I am NOT trying to sugar-coat anything

We are higher than the other Nordics because of our complete, shameful fuck-up in our elderly care homes, the scattered site elderly care, and the fact we have vastly larger high-risk immigrant/refugee communities, those 2 main areas account for almost all the difference between us and the other Nordics

but I will not abide flat out lies and gas-lighting and us being wrongly used as a political football

I go into a lot of detail on the elderly care cock-ups at the bottom links below


that said, we also have not had a single COVID-19 death for 7 days now, nationwide (funny, I never see this mentioned, let alone the massive overall drop off now for the last two months +)

we have not had a day with more than 20 deaths nationwide since June


https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa/page/page_0/





and no, our economy was not the same or worse than rest of Europe (another lie that was started before the numbers came out, and then when they did come out and showed that to be a lie, it was not only never retracted, but is now being repeated yet again),

the EU dropped on average 40% more than we did, and we also were the only EU nation of size who had positive growth in Q1

and no, we did not (like they also lied about on that segment) keep all the clubs, restos and bars open with no restrictions, and no it was not the bloody Wild West here with people running around like madmen/madwomen


I go into a lot of detail here and documentaion here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214004074

and here

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214002169

including my replies, which go into further detail

[denem]

12. I hear you !

ty

[Blue_true]

14. Your country's leaders screwed the pooch in not being more explicit at the outset.

Now wives tales and just outright disinformation have taken over and that genie can’t be put back in it’s bottle, despite your use of mounds of data. People are simply fools to a large extent and there is just a lot of disinformation available to them.

And now we have our foolish US President wading into the mix. Buckle up, big time turbulence ahead.

[Celerity]

15. I am not using ''mounds of data', only calling out pure lies via documentation

For people to go on US media and say that Sweden was or is going for a herd immunity strategy from the beginning was and is a lie. To say that our our economy was impacted the same as the EU average, or was worse than the average, or was even the worst in the EU was and is a lie.

[Blue_true]

16. Well, the lies are out there and have taken on a life of their own.

Such it is with disinformation that isn’t immediately knocked down.

[Celerity]

17. unfortunately you are correct

And just now that fucker Scott Atlas from the Trump administration (whilst denying that he told Trump to go for herd immunity) just tossed us under the bus as well. So now it is back to both sides using us, via false positing, as a political football. It is utterly dismaying.

I get the feeling (and I admit this is pure speculation) that so many (I am taking in general, not about DU) on a multiplicity of sides want to see us explode into an fever swamp of COVID-19 deaths, and not have such a vastly reduced rate as we actually have, just to serve whatever political agenda they are trying to push. I had an old, long time (since we were both classmates in year 6, ie. what is called 5th grade in the US) London friend tell me basically as much (that she feels uncomfortable talking about Sweden and the curve being flattened here) as it is giving the people she argues with about the detestable (my word, lol, I hate all Tories) Boris Johnson and the UK government's response a 'weapon' (her exact word). I asked her what she would have us do, DIE more, just to prove your point? She started off with 'well.............' then quickly tried to catch herself, but I immediately got off Skype with her. So fucked up (and so very, very unlike her.) SMDH

what a clusterfuck from every angle

[Blue_true]

18. Yes, Sweden is caught in the middle and is being used as an "example" by all sides.

It is going to be a revelation concerning where things go from here. My belief is that Trump is stupid enough to try a stealth “herd immunity” effort, that seems to be what the clown from the Hoover Institute is softening the ground for. And due to COVID19 exhaustion, people may not react to that attempt the way they should.

I met a guy while out shopping over the weekend that had lost 4 family members to COVID19, I believe people like him will know better than try for “herd immunity” without a vaccine. I am not sure about families like mine that have not lost anyone or had anyone test positive yet.