This message was self-deleted by its author

[William769]

This message was self-deleted by its author (William769) on Sun Jan 8, 2012, 07:01 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[handmade34]

1. awesome...she is beautiful

?9d6e10

[William769]

2. Yes she is.

I wish her the best of luck.

[itsrobert]

4. I give her a 7

out of 10.

[handmade34]

5. What??

well, as an enlightened female who doesn't much like beauty pageants, I would give her a 'close to 10' because she sounds like a really decent human being!

[itsrobert]

13. I was basing on outer appearance only

That is what really the pageant is about.

[Eliminator]

41. You're going to get a lot of shit for it from the feminists here

I'm just saying. I'm guessing your post was the one that was alerted and allowed to stand.

[The Doctor.]

53. There are no 'Tens' until I meet them.

If they aren't educated, intelligent, passionate, ambitious, and have real depth and vision, then they can't be more than a seven.

I don't care what she 'looks' like.

[Demonaut]

12. on second thought 8-9, closer to 9-10 on outlook and diversity

second pic posted was better, a close up of her "face"

[Jean V. Dubois]

61. 7 seems about right.

While she's certainly attractive, her appearance (at least in the photos at the linked article) isn't exactly stunning. Best of luck to her, in any case.

[FloridaJudy]

169. Come on. She's gorgeous.

She has one of those arresting faces that holds one's attention far longer than mere prettiness does. I'm no fan of beauty pageants, but I hope she wins.

[itsrobert]

178. I do see something there

It's the face of a person who has overcome some hardships and now is content in her own self. I can see that as "gorgeous" in itself.

[JI7]

202. but 7 is gorgeous also, it's above average

i agree, i find her look much more attractive and interesting than the usual pageant look. of course she might end up looking more typical pageant when she competes.

[Jean V. Dubois]

213. The "1 to 10" rating is a bell curve.

10% of women aren't a "10", after all. "7" is quite attractive.

[one_voice]

28. yes she is beautiful...

she has a natural beauty. Something make-up can't give you!

She's courageous, I wish her the best of luck.

[itsrobert]

49. Natural?

What was natural about the makeup and lip injection?

[Maine-ah]

56. not all of us women with full lips had them injected.

[one_voice]

88. Why do you assume she's had...

lip injections? Many women have full lips.

As for the make-up...it's done very so that it enhances her beauty, it isn't creating the beauty. It's very natural.

[JI7]

36. she doesn't have the pageant look

at least not the typical pageant look . it could just be this pic also.

she looks more like a model for high end designers. especially in europe.

[Eliminator]

50. I bet she is very smart and funny and charming

I'm not going to comment on her appearance, because I don't know her. To say she is beautiful based solely on her physical appearance would be Wrong.

At least that's what I'm told.

[iverglas]

148. Miss California!

Why didn't I think of this before?

A tune by one of my favourite (Canadian, of course) bands from the olden days: Stringband.


"Show us the Length" - Written by Bob Bossin.

"Girls, as the principal of Terranova High School,
Once each year it's a pleasure for me
To introduce you to the Mayor of the city of Pacifica
To say a few words about our annual Queen."

"Who'll be," said the Mayor, "a very lucky maid
To represent Pacifica to all of the State,
And who could go on to be Miss California
Or even Miss America herself.
I expect to see some volunteers."
When one girl rose and without any fears
She said ... "Mr. Mayor...

Chorus:
Show us the length of your cock.
Are you hung like a beaver, or hung like a bear?
Let me check the weight of your rocks,
So we can have a standard by which to compare
You men, don't worry if it's very, very slender,
The personality is as important as the member.
Drop your trousers and make the news,
And don't judge lest we judge you.

... (final chorus)
Don't judge lest we judge you (without your pants on)
Don't judge lest we judge you (and find you wanting)
Don't judge lest we judge yoo-ooo!


I can't do it all from memory but I have the disk up in the storage room if anybody wants more of the lyrics.

-- Aha -- they're all here (I won't post more for copyright reasons):

http://mudcat.org/detail_pf.cfm?messages__Message_ID=236210

Apparently this was about an actual event that I seem to have missed at the time.

[iverglas]

179. and here's a collector's item!

Ah, the memories are just flooding back.



1970 ... the year that women at my university and universities across Canada -- me being one of them -- put an end to that crap once and for all. No more Miss Canadian University after that.

The students of Simon Fraser University in Vancouver elected a terrific feminist as their Miss. So did York University in Toronto. Janelle and Judy. They bided their time, waited for the right moment, and then denounced the thing from their places on the stage and walked out. The crowd of us who had packed the auditorium did our stuff - I think we must have sung something stirring - and marched together out of the room. Oddly, the scheduled broadcast of the taped proceedings, which had aired every previous year, was never seen. Miss Canadian University was a dead duck.

We'd had to operate by stealth to get in, past the Business school boys running the show and on the alert for hysterical pearl-clutching humourless jealous wimmins -- no braless barefoot big-assed bushy-haired babes we (and our male comrades). No, I was in my shortest minidress and highest heels, legs up to there neatly pantyhosed, with my fabulous honey-gold hair brushed to a shine and flowing poker-straight to my narrow waist. We were glorious examples of womanhood that night, we were. Looks, personality, politics, the whole package every progressive man dreams of.

Maybe Mollie here will do us proud and do the same.

[redqueen]

197. "Maybe Mollie here will do us proud and do the same."

Oh, if only.

[Zorra]

194. She looks a bit like the woman in the bottom picture of this post. (pic heavy)

[MADem]

3. I've never been much of a fan of those things but I hope she wins!

Might as well put that whole "meat market" spectacle to good use, for a change. This young lady sounds quite well-spoken in the article--she won't be anything like that poor lass who became a laughingstock because she couldn't answer the question and would not shut up, regardless!

[WingDinger]

6. I didnt think Lesbians would have any interest in a puerile sport.

An Ex, ran in the Miss California. The girls party all day and night. All over the place. But, they are chapparoned, and not allowed any touch. Except with each other, I presume.

The ex {gf}called up, said about six of the girls were going bonkers, and needed TOUCH. They intended to sneak out, and meet me and a friend. Boy was I excited. Then, all of a sudden, I felt a dread. And so I asked. Just you? She said of course.

I went back to sleep. Told my friend that I decided against it, but he was my choice of friend, till that point. He slugged me in the arm.

It is no wonder Trump bought a captive dating pool{miss World}. And that other letch, owns tropicana bikini girls. Have a friend that was given photographer rights to Tropicana bikini contests. He tried to date from it. Not much luck, no money. Ruined his taste in which women to date.

Is it possible to have mixed feelings about a lesbian wanting to go thru that Ick?

[justiceischeap]

7. Lesbians like to get laid too. nt

[WingDinger]

10. That is achievable even without joining a meat contest.

[justiceischeap]

11. Would she be getting the publicity she's getting now to work with LGBTQ youth?

Nope. Sometimes you do things you may not necessarily want to for the greater good, like pay taxes or participate in pageants.

[WingDinger]

14. Again, mixed feelings. Same as the Santorum thing. Not that I'm gay, but I care about their dignity.

If this were a perfect world, that title would read, transexual man competes in Miss California contest. THAT, I would stand and cheer.

Right now, there is a porn star actress, that reads to children. She is on thin ice, and most think she should not say a word to children. How you align yourslef, and who you represent, matters.

[justiceischeap]

15. She only loses dignity if she's forced into it or she allows herself to act undignified

Not everyone behaves like your ex.

[WingDinger]

16. If you joined the Tea Party, and were not forced into it, do you retain your full dignity?

nature of the beast.

[justiceischeap]

18. I don't see the correlation to the Tea Party and a beauty pageant.

I personally believe that joining the tea party makes you lose any dignity you may have had. I don't necessarily feel that being a pageant participant leads to the loss of dignity unless you act like an ass.

[seabeyond]

38. when i see the men struttin acoss the stage in next to nothing, and we judge him on his looks

is when i will sit down next to you and applaud our equality.

[getdown]

91. but he's not just a piece of meat, dammit!!

[Warren DeMontague]

158. yes he is.

[WingDinger]

212. I was in the castro, for holloween and entered the contest.

I was an ax murderer, and lost to a drag queen. It was devastating. To an ax murderer, everyone looks like a piece of meat.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. Ask, and you shall...

[getdown]

162. are they gay?

[Warren DeMontague]

163. I don't know, or care

I'm glad they're living their dream, if that's what they want to do.

[getdown]

164. that's a good point

who dreams this stuff up

[zappaman]

94. um....I guess in your little bubble you've never heard of....

MANHUNT!
http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/200808/the-worlds-biggest-beauty-pageant-for-men

[getdown]

89. the whole concept of beauty pageants is undignified

believe it

[justiceischeap]

17. Need to make some corrections to your point

A transexual MAN would never be in the Miss California contest. A transexual WOMAN could.

I don't see how the porn actress reading to kids has anything to do with a gay woman participating in a pageant so she can work with LGBTQ kids. One could almost think you're comparing gay folks, with the porn industry and if you really care about our dignity, you probably don't want to compare us to porn actresses.

[WingDinger]

19. Outgroup communities are similar. I would not call gays mainstream.

That is what we fight for.

Same as we fight to keep Occupy non violent. CRED.

[justiceischeap]

23. Yeah but comparing the LGBTQ community to the Tea Party or the porn industry

isn't helping get your point across. As far as "gays" being mainstream, you make us, human beings after all, sound like some sort of trend. 53% of Americans think we should have marriage equality, whereas only 30% think porn is okay; that sounds pretty mainstream to me.

[WingDinger]

24. Mainstreaming gays is a new trend. They had to wait for minorities and women.

Everyone enjoys soft porn{hollywood}. And many of those polled as opposed to porn, are included in those religious conventions, that gobble up porn bandwidth when away from home.

[iverglas]

25. um

Yeah but comparing the LGBTQ community to the Tea Party or the porn industry

I think the analogy was between joining a beauty pageant and joining the Tea Party/porn industry.

Why would anybody want to do any of those things?

Even if one claims, or even has, noble motives - like getting a platform for whatever it is one wants to do - isn't there some way in the world of accomplishing one's objectives without associating one's self with something vile?

[WingDinger]

26. CHURCH!!

[iverglas]

27. I don't know that I understood that,

but if you're saying: beauty pageants, Tea Party, porn industry, church

... then yeah, that too.

I actually have a lot of admiration for a lot of things some churches and their members do (my ex-church in Canada was among the activists for same-sex marriage, and is a leader in global efforts to protect water as a public resource and human right, just for instance). But you don't gotta go join one to do good works!

[WingDinger]

29. Church. Urban slang word. Similar to WORD, in the seventies.

[iverglas]

51. omg

I am ooooold.

(Surely Word was the 90s?)

[Warren DeMontague]

69. "Why would anybody want to do any of those things?" I dunno, maybe because they're NOT YOU.

I suspect that, until you finally find and move to the planet of the Yous, where everyone IS you and everyone agrees with you 100% on what is or isn't "vile", you're not going to be very happy.

[iverglas]

82. I suspect that you ...

I suspect that, until you finally find and move to the planet of the Yous, where everyone IS you and everyone agrees with you 100% on what is or isn't "vile", you're not going to be very happy.

... have nothing better to do with yourself than post uninformed, rude personal comments about strangers on internet discussion boards.

I'm perfectly happy. Thank you for your concern.

[iverglas]

124. oooh, "frothy"

Well, I guess men can get into frothy rages too, so that was maybe just coincidental, there.

Still, the image of an hysteric in a frothy rage clutching her pearls ...

You should really fix your secret internet spy camera. I'm sitting here laughing my ass off. You're just pretending to.

You must know that I don't expect much at DU, and I certainly don't expect not to be smacked in the face with misogyny in virtually all its forms, and its practitioners and defenders, around every corner. Anyone who did expect that was disabused of their naive notions nigh on a decade ago, and continuing to have expectations like that would just fall into that old definition of insanity.

So if I expect women in general, women members of DU, and myself in particular to be treated with contempt at this place, why would it send me into a rage when we are?

And if my comments were met with repeated nonsensical personal commentary intended as insult, precisely as I did expect, why would I be anything but amused at the predictability of the pack?

This one's for you, seabeyond:

Snork.

[iverglas]

133. retract

I'm glad this thread that you're demanding DU censor is meeting your needs

Substantiate that allegation or retract it.

I was asked to adjudicate a post in this thread. I did not "demand" anything. I cast my vote that the post in question did not meet the standards of this website.

(Oh, okay, that may have been wishful thinking. I guess it just slipped my mind that the standards of this website are really as reflected in numerous posts in this thread, not including any written by me.)

If you want to call the jury system here "censorship", go take it up with somebody in authority.

Do not make false allegations about me.

[Warren DeMontague]

144. why the fuck would I retract? Your words are in this thread, for all to see.

And yeah, you posted them in the jury comments, AND THEN you re-posted them in the thread.

a thread about a BEAUTY PAGENT CONTESTANT at DU? I don't give a toss whether she's lesbian, straight, paraplegic, an undocumented immigrant, short, tall -- what the fuck is this doing at DU? Have we not quite settled on the concept that women are human beings and not cattle yet? A pox on all their houses. But ranking of women by their appearance is beyond the pale. Begone

"what the fuck is this doing at DU"? I suppose that line is open to interpretation, huh. But maybe not so much once you put it in the context of not meeting the standards of this website, at least as you interpret them.

and you weren't talking about just the post, you were talking about the whole thread. Which, apparently, would have been too troublesome to just trash with the ignore thread function.

(See, that's one of my favorite things about censorship boosters. They know 'censorship' has a bad rap, so they will bend over backwards to say "we're not calling for censorship" even as they ARE.)

[iverglas]

156. filth

What you quote was written about a POST, in which I commented on the thread.

I expressed my opinion that threads about beauty contests do not belong at DU.

I did not DEMAND anything, let alone that the thread be removed, let alone CENSORSHIP.

I voted to HIDE one post, in which a woman was rated on her appearance.

I applied the "community standards" of this place -- not the mob standards -- and found the post wanting. And it was.

I do not "ignore" anything at this board -- threads or posters. Ever. I have never used the "ignore" fundction, not once. Ignoring things does not make them go away. (And closing one's ears to what other people have to say as if one is then somehow relieved of the duty that rests on people who choose to speak publicly about something to respond to other views and explain and defend their own ... is anti-democratic.)

(See, that's one of my favorite things about censorship boosters. They know 'censorship' has a bad rap, so they will bend over backwards to say "we're not calling for censorship" even as they ARE.)

And the thing I find most despicable about people who make false allegations about other people ... is that they make false allegations about other people.

It's not something I'd want to suppress, though. It's instructive for the world to see how weak they are.

[iverglas]

166. as Samuel Clemens said

A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is tying its shoelaces.

[Warren DeMontague]

252. Twain had little use or patience for puritannical would-be censors. nt

[zappaman]

254. True. n/t

[iverglas]

255. He evidently had zero tolerance for liars

[Warren DeMontague]

257. As do I

As do I.

[Eliminator]

43. And people who have a problem with Sasha Grey need to grow the fuck up

So she did some porn. So what? It's the same old puritanical thinking where people think sex is "dirty" that allows this nonsense to continue. As if this woman having sex for money somehow makes her a bad person who can't read to children. I'm so sick of this shit.

[seabeyond]

59. who leak the info she was in porn? she made sure it got out. because it was about reading to kids?

or attention for her?

[zappaman]

60. who knows who leaked it?

maybe a parent recognized her?

[seabeyond]

63. cute... since parents dont sit around for people to read to the kids. how about HER twittering

that she went to this school, and read to these kids

look at me everyone

wasnt about the kids. was about attention. she got it.

[Warren DeMontague]

71. The whole damn point of twitter is to tell people stuff, like what you did today.

It's not my bag, but apparently it's very popular.

I think the criteria for who should be able to read to kids ought to be, first and foremost, ability to read.




Yeah, I know that photo's fake. Still funny.

[seabeyond]

77. it is also to get attention. she got it. so? nt

[zappaman]

80. so?

what's the big deal?
I guess we agree.

[Eliminator]

72. Way to miss the point

It's about puritanical idiots who have a problem with a women reading to children just because she's had sex.

Maybe only virgins should be permitted to interact with children...Oh wait...

[iverglas]

98. odd

It's about puritanical idiots who have a problem with a women reading to children just because she's had sex.

I guess all the teachers the kids call "Mrs." are parties to those platonic marriages one hears about.

No, actually, I guess you've just misrepresented the people you're talking about.

I've never heard of this woman or what she gets up to. I have no idea what objections were actually voiced to her classroom endeavours.

I'll just say that I would object, if it were my kids, because there appears to be little chance they wouldn't get the news too, and I just wouldn't feel like having to explain the whole sex industry to them at whatever age they were. I'd prefer my young son or daughter not to be influenced quite yet, or at least even more than they already are, by the idea that women are objects, and particularly objects for the sexual gratification of (and rating by) men.

You know, it really is possible for two people to advocate a very similar position for very different reasons. I'm not a Puritan, and some of the others objecting to this woman's classsroom activities are undoubtedly not feminists.

Me and old Dr. Paul both think the US should have stayed the hell out of Iraq ... He's not a social democrat, and I'm not a raving misogynist asshole.

[Warren DeMontague]

135. "she makes movies for grown-ups", that's what you say. And you're done.

do you actually HAVE kids? There are lots of things you might, in the course of a day, need to filter or otherwise obfuscate to an age-appropriate level.

...but, yes, the old 'we must sanitize the world for children lest we be forced to explain the parts that aren't for children to the children' excuse. Bill Clinton's greatest "crime" was that he FORCED millions of parents to explain "oral sex"...EEEEEEEK!

Why not just admit that you're mad that there even IS a 'sex industry' in the first place, it's not about explaining it to children so much as it is your inability to tell the grown-ups who choose to participate in it that they have to stop.

[obamanut2012]

149. And, the issue shouldn't even come up

They were little kids, she was volunteering time under her real name, not her screen name. If it does, you say exactly what you suggested.

Also, as I've posted elsewhere in this thread Marina Hantzis aka Sashe Grey has went "straight," and no longer does porn. She should be known as an actress in a Steven Soderbergh movie, or in Entourage.

When is she allowed to be forgiven for tainting herself with porn? What's the statute of limitations? When do teh men who watch her porn get judged like this?

I am not arguing for against porn. I'm saying Sasha Grey has a right to move forward in her life without being Scarlet A'ed.

[Warren DeMontague]

152. I give her props for volunteering to help out at a school.

End of story.

[obamanut2012]

159. Me too

I don't get the guff aimed at Sasha Grey. She's left porn, and if one believes the sex industry victimizes women (I am not getting into this subject here), then there should be HUGE props for Grey leaving porn and going straight. Right?

I thought it was ridiculous when I heard about this. All the kids saw was a pretty young woman, who was dressed like their moms or older cousins, being friendly and reading to them.

[iverglas]

175. hahahaha

"she makes movies for grown-ups", that's what you say

Not a hope in hell, pal.



I also don't say "adult entertainment" in real life.

I call it what it is: puerile entertainment.

[obamanut2012]

154. I doubt very much she leaked it

You know how much I respect you, right? Sasha Grey quit porn a while ago and is a "straight" actress now, and has done some high-profile, critically-acclaimed stuff. She volunteered under her own name and was being very low-profile about it. She was very upset it got leaked.

Who leaked it? Probably someone on staff who had watched her porn.

Does she not have a right to move forward with her life? I say yes.

[obamanut2012]

95. Sasha Grey is no longer a porn star

And volunteered under her real name.

I know you were being sarcastic, which I approve of, but I just wanted to post the info for people who didn't know.

Plus, even if she still was, she was volunteering and helping kids.

[Eliminator]

97. Yes but she is no longer a virgin

This makes her impure and therefore unfit to read to children.

[zappaman]

100. Plus she might enjoy sex

which is a huge no-no.

[obamanut2012]

106. lol

[obamanut2012]

103. Sasha Grey isn;t a porn star anymore

Volunteered under her own name, and VOLUNTEERED to help kids.

Why is Marina Hantzis "on thin ice"? She didn't do anything. And, when are we, as a society allowed to forgive her for having once being in pornography? Are the people who watched her porn and this recognized her name also "on thin ice"? Are THEY allowed to interact with children? Do THEY volunteer their time to help kids?

Good God. Forget about if porn is okay or it isn't, for those who DO look down on porn actors, as your post clearly shows you do, if you think they are so icky, why can't you allow them to "go straight," like Marina Hantzis aka Sasha Grey is?

AND, WHAT THE HECK DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH MISS CALIFORNIA BEING GAY???

[getdown]

87. how is endorsing the meat contest

for the greater good ?

[iverglas]

104. just look at the sacrifices she is making

for that greater good!

... Um, I mean, surely she must be making some sacrifices here ...

Oh, that's right. She's sacrificing other women's humanity.

[getdown]

112. yes

yes there was a time for meat contests and marriage were seen for what they are.

your points are well taken. times have changed. the "common knowledge" about exploitation of women is lost knowledge and times have become so damn ... common.

another reason people can't honestly address the Powers That Be they are dealing with: because they want to play the games while complaining about the consequences.

oh well

[getdown]

119. where'd ya get that, Rush Limbaugh?

[getdown]

147. well

you two missed a great decade in the meantime ...

[getdown]

153. wait

aren't holograms verboten?

[getdown]

160. yes you must

get confused being non-local and all

[dsc]

198. with all due respect your position on Ms. Grey

is no different at all than those who would ban gay teachers on similar grounds. You don't want to explain Ms. Grey's movie to your kids they don't want to explain the existence of gays to theirs. The most amazing part of your position is that you apparently consider Ms. Grey a victim but when she actually escapes her victim status you would have her ostercised for having been a victim.

[SaintPete]

20. Whats different about lesbians?

other than their choice of partners?

[JI7]

37. some do , some don't. just like hetero women

[tawadi]

8. Cool

Hope she wins.

[noiretextatique]

9. think of the children!

the christofacists are going to lose their minds

[Initech]

21. Ha ha, I thought the same thing!

Watch ol' Rick Santorum explain this one!

[Behind the Aegis]

208. It isn't just the "christofacists" who will lose their minds.

[iverglas]

22. I just served on a jury for a post in this thread

It was allowed to stand 2 to 4.

My vote was:

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said:
oh god - a thread about a BEAUTY PAGENT CONTESTANT at DU? I don't give a toss whether she's lesbian, straight, paraplegic, an undocumented immigrant, short, tall -- what the fuck is this doing at DU? Have we not quite settled on the concept that women are human beings and not cattle yet? A pox on all their houses. But ranking of women by their appearance is beyond the pale. Begone. - iverglas

Hey, juror #5 -- "I guess some would find it slightly sexist to rate a woman" (and I applaud your decision to sign you reasons, as I do, but I'll delete the name here) -- ya THINK??

I can see the posting of the item as news, I suppose. But dog almighty, can I not expect some critical analysis at this site?

I feel the same way about this as I do about same-sex marriage -- why anyone wants in on a phenomenon/institution that has oppressed and degraded women throught history is pretty much beyond me, but they have as much right to do it as I do or anyone else does. So I'll fight to the death for their right to do it, while reserving my own right to criticize their choice.

[zappaman]

30. Hey I was a juror on this thread too!

I voted to leave it alone.
And why shouldn't this news be discussed on DU?

[William769]

31. Did the alerter give a comment what was wrong this this thread?

I'm just curious.

[zappaman]

33. yes

"Extremely poor taste, and offensive. "

[obamanut2012]

34. omg

[iverglas]

39. the alert wasn't about news being discussed

It was about rating women on their appearance.

At DU.

And there's some question?

[stockholmer]

120. there were multiple juries for different alerts, one was for 'rating' looks, others for a beauty

contest simple being posted on DU.

[treestar]

235. I don't like the rating concept

Applied to women or men, or by straight or gay people. All superficial. Everyone is unique.

[Eliminator]

40. Ah here we go...

Did someone put a gun to this woman's head and make compete in this beauty pageant? No?

Okay then. Nothing wrong with it. Nothing sexist about it. You're outraged over bullshit.

[iverglas]

44. yeah, there goes the mouthy humourless feminist

Did someone put a gun to this woman's head and make compete in this beauty pageant? No?

Do, uh, "we" progressives occasionally have to think about something, and listen to what someone else might have to say about it?

Nah.

Nothing wrong with it. Nothing sexist about it. You're outraged over bullshit.

And you're wrong, and wrong, and unpleasant.

[seabeyond]

47. sit down and shut up woman, dontcha know. let a man tell you what sexism is. nt

[zappaman]

57. so a woman who voluntarily competes in a beauty pageant

should not be rated?
isn't that the whole point of a beauty pageant?
yeah, pageants are lame but to get bent out of shape when someone gives their opinion on the contestants looks is ridiculous.

[seabeyond]

62. my post was about a man telling us what sexism is and to STFU.

i see you did not address a single thing i posted.

[zappaman]

64. ok how's this?

who told a woman to shut up.
someone disagreed with you.
why are you getting hysterical about it?

[seabeyond]

73. hysterical? so if i, a woman, address a post, i am hysterical? games. fuckin childish, immature

games. i suppose next you will say you dont mean anything by that?

[iverglas]

108. no, you're hysterical

if you're a woman.

Have you not got the memo yet??

[zappaman]

118. nope, sorry women, but you don't own that word. Men can be hysterical too. n/t

[iverglas]

137. never studied ancient Greek, did you?

Find an etymological dictionary somewhere.

Here, I'll do your homework.


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hysterical

hysterical Look up hysterical at Dictionary.com
1610s, from L. hystericus "of the womb," from Gk. hysterikos "of the womb, suffering in the womb," from hystera "womb" (see uterus). Originally defined as a neurotic condition peculiar to women and thought to be caused by a dysfunction of the uterus. Meaning "very funny" (by 1939) is from the notion of uncontrollable fits of laughter. Related: Hysterically.


You'll recognize the common root in words like "hysterectomy". Can men have them too?

Consider your reaction if you were said to be suffering from a testosterone overdose. That's Greek too. You just happen to know what that one means.

[zappaman]

143. uh huh

and over the years the origins of the word have been lost and the term can be equally applied.
what, you're against the equal applicability of words?

[Warren DeMontague]

146. it would certainly explain the ear hair.

[zappaman]

115. nope, hysterical for putting words in other posters mouth. n/t

[zappaman]

70. well, some people love to clutch those pearls. n/t

[seabeyond]

76. a woman can not say anything on the issue, without name calling to denigrate her? nt

[zappaman]

85. well, when a poster makes things up and complain that posters are saying things

like "sit down and shut up woman, dontcha know. let a man tell you what sexism is", which not one has....
maybe this discussion isn't for them?

[iverglas]

110. gosh, "hysterical", "pearls"

You're on a roll.

Don't stop now!

[seabeyond]

75. yes it is. it is also sexist. lets see, stfu, hysterical, bent out of shape, freak out,

and pearl clutcher.

all in a couple posts to ya, get a woman to stfu.

[zappaman]

78. it's a discussion

no one has told anyone to STFU.
again, why so hysterical?

[getdown]

84. no pearls

to clutch

[zappaman]

111. you bet your sweet ass they're here somewhere! n/t

[seabeyond]

86. yes, a man told the woman wasnt sexist and to stfu... hysterical again? games again? nt

[zappaman]

90. no one told anyone to STFU.

go ahead, point it out.
I'll wait.

[iverglas]

231. that's quite a piece of work

There are posters "outraged" about seeing talk of a beauty pageant on DU

The only appearance of the word "outrage" or its variants in this thread is in posts by you, falsely representing someone else.

and demanding that any and all discussion of such cattle-like appearance contests on this progressive website should be scrubbed and censored forthwith.

Do you kiss people with that mouth?

It's such a shame that you can quote nothing to back up your allegations.

So, technically, I would say that in a sense the people stomping their feet and yelling that we can't talk about Miss California here (instead of, say, hiding the thread) are saying "STFU".

Technically, and in any other way, no one has done any such thing, so that's just you doing what you have evidently practised to do so well, again.

[zappaman]

253. I am unaware of beauty pageants for cattle.

Is it as nasty as TODDLERS AND TIARAS?

[Vanje]

292. Beauty Pagents for Cattle

occur at every county fair in the west!

Is nothing sacred to 'The Patriarchy'?

[getdown]

96. because she chose to join in

doesn't mean it's not sexist

[mythology]

136. More accurately

just because she chose to join doesn't mean that you don't think it's sexist. There's a subjectiveness to defining what is or is not sexist both at the individual and societal level.

Personally I have no use for beauty contests, but if as an adult she wishes to participate in one, it's no skin off my nose. It doesn't have an impact on how I view or interact with the women in my life.

[getdown]

142. actually

the other poster states that the pageant has "nothing sexist about it" because no one "put a gun to this woman's head and make compete in this beauty pageant"

Which is false.

Women choosing to play along doesn't make it any less sexist.

[iverglas]

232. no, actually, ...

More accurately
just because she chose to join doesn't mean that you don't think it's sexist.

The statement that just because someone chooses to do X doesn't mean that X is not Y is absolutely accurate.

... the fact that someone chooses to do something does say nothing whatsoever about the thing they choose to do. In this case, for example, the fact that a lesbian chooses to participate in a beauty contest does not mean that the beauty contest is not sexist; nor does it mean that the beauty contest is sexist, or that it is purple with green stripes.

If you want to correct people, I suggest you find someone in need of correcting. You could start with yourself.

Personally I have no use for beauty contests, but if as an adult she wishes to participate in one, it's no skin off my nose. It doesn't have an impact on how I view or interact with the women in my life.

Good for you!

Now, if the discussion were about you, I guess that would matter.

[RebelOne]

32. I wish her luck. Sexual orientation should not even enter into this contest. n/t

[William769]

35. Self delete.

Last edited Sat Jan 7, 2012, 06:24 PM - Edit history (1)

I misunderstood something.

[iverglas]

42. the thread wasn't alerted

(unless you got notice of an alert on the OP)

A post in the thread was alerted, and that was what my own post was about.

There are several posts near the top of the thread discussing what score this woman should be given on her appearance.

Do you consider that decent behaviour? Acceptable behaviour for this website? Behaviour that is likely to make women members of this website feel that they are regarded as human beings, equal to any other member, and valued for their thoughts and actions and not their conformity to a some man's standards for physical appearance?

I find it distasteful in the extreme to see this kind of discussion of women at DU. It's what we called, all those decades ago in the women's movement, objectification.

Women are not objects, and do not exist for men.


You posted the news item but didn't comment on it. I gather you approve of this woman's actions in entering herself in this meat market competition. (Oh, I know, it's soooo much more in these modern times.)

Oh well.

[William769]

45. Thank you. Someone sent me a PM to explain what happened.

What I approve of is her choice to do this and not be excluded just because she is a lesbian.

Does not matter if I agree with beauty pageants or not, what does matter is my approval of what she decides to do.

I hope that makes sense.

[Eliminator]

46. I'm sure women don't do it. At all.

Every time you see a man, you don't mentally rate his appearance in any way whatsoever. No sireebob. Not ever. You get to know him first, and value his thoughts and actions, before you decide whether you think he is good looking or not.

Right?

[iverglas]

52. excuse me

I don't believe I was talking about what you or anyone does in the privacy of their own head, or their bedroom, or anywhere else.

I was talking about discussion in public, and specifically at this website.

You may want to read more carefully. And maybe even read something other than the Sports Illustrated bathing suit edition.

And no, I don't "mentally rate" the appearance of every man I see. Good grief, the question is too absurd for consideration. I have one hell of a lot of brain cells, but I'd never have enough to have any I wanted to devote to that.

[getdown]

99. have you ever seen a beauty pageant

of men?

[zappaman]

105. of course we have

http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/200808/the-worlds-biggest-beauty-pageant-for-men

MANHUNT!

[getdown]

114. no

something equivalent -- that's not the same. nice try tho

[zappaman]

121. please explain why is that not equivalent?

men are being judged for their looks among other things.
Shall I list more or will they not be equivalent either?

[getdown]

122. take a stereotypical beauty pageant with all the trimmings

replace the women with men

[zappaman]

125. ok, how about this one?

http://main.stylelist.com/2009/12/16/mister-international-the-male-beauty-pageant/

no?

how about this one?

http://www.mrcarib.com/

surely, one of these meets whatever criteria you have defined?

[getdown]

127. no

i did not define the criteria. the tradition of pageants did.

are you pretending not to understand? you're showing models and bodybuilders, not a stereotypical beauty pageant with all the trimmings

there isn't one

[zappaman]

128. Sorry, you're wrong.

put down your pearls and read the article.
when you do, you'll see this...

"The annual men's beauty contest has been quietly gaining momentum since its launch in 2006; this year's pageant will feature participants from 28 countries who'll don swimwear, evening wear and perform group dance numbers, all to vie for the title of "world's most handsome man," reports Reuters."

[getdown]

130. in evening gown and high heels?

[zappaman]

132. men don't wear those...women do.

your point is laughable and wouldn't it be easier to just admit you're wrong?

[getdown]

138. yes the point is laughable

and why there is no comparison b/w how women are presented in a meat competition and how men are. Ha Ha

Men in evening suits? No. We wanna see em shimmy in sequins and silks and totter around on fuck me shoes DIGNITY!

[zappaman]

170. that's cool.

I know some people can never admit they are wrong even, as in your case, they clearly are.
so, enjoy your bubble while I enjoy guys in speedos.

[getdown]

171. when you have time

think about the equivalency, think about why women dress like that, why the tradition has been females only up til now and why you think it's the same difference. it's not.

[The Straight Story]

48. Um she is going to be scored on her appearance (hence, beauty pageant)

If she did not want to be scored on how she looked, she should not enter a beauty pageant.

"Women are not objects, and do not exist for men. "

She is not existing for men, does not appear to care about them. Getting involved in a pageant is obviously not just about how men see women but how women see each other as well.

[iverglas]

54. "If she did not want to be scored on how she looked"

If you try reading the thread, you will find that NO ONE has said anything about what she wants.

My posts have been about what is to be expected at a website supposedly frequented by progressive individuals.

What *I* expect at such a website - this one - is not to be confronted with messages in which women are scored on their appearance.

That's a pretty easy concept to grasp.

[getdown]

101. bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaha

[zappaman]

58. Correct and sorry if my post created confusion

And I'd give her a 9 on looks and from reading her views, a 10 on personality for an overall 9.5.

[iverglas]

65. damn

You're cute.

[zappaman]

67. Hey, I'm not a 9.5.

but I think you're kinda cute too...

[The Doctor.]

55. She's very lovely.

I can picture wingnut heads exploding.

[Warren DeMontague]

68. I'll give her a 10. She's incredibly hot, and I wish her luck.

And if people don't like me commenting on her appearance, too bad. She's in a fucking beauty contest, for fuck's sake.

[getdown]

81. holy shit

[struggle4progress]

117. She works well with animals:

?9d6e10

[seabeyond]

123. an excellent thread with example how sexism is approved on du, namecalling allowed, out of control

rocks....

thank you so much for an OP where all women are freely and equally denigrated. such a lovely thread for a progressive board. something we all can be proud of on du.

[stockholmer]

131. I think that this is a good thing (open LGBT contestants in traditionally 'straight' events)

I have seen thousands of comments about human 'looks on here' (many times about certain conservative women that are met with howls of laughter) and this thread is really tame compared to most.

The very nature of a beauty contest will ALWAYS, ipso facto, invite comments in regard to physical appearance. And it IS sexist, IMHO, for anyone to assume what a woman (ie. the contest entrant in this case) thinks about the merits of her 'looks' or how she wants to dipslay them as a part of her persona.

I say subvert and tip that fucking hetero-banal apple cart of a contest over.

[seabeyond]

134. well, thank you man, for once again putting me in my place, a couple names and lecturing me on

sexism.

[zappaman]

140. Again, you must magically see words no one else does.

what names did the poster call you and if you think having a discussion is a lecture towards you, I truly feel sorry for you.

[stockholmer]

151. What names did I use? This is getting to be a bit bewildering. I do not not even know

if you are male or female. I never assume anything on the net, regardless of what people choose to disclose.

For me to simply disagree with you on a point or two (and extremely mildly, I might add) does NOT, a priori, equate to sexism in my book. If it does in yours, then feel free to call me sexist all you want. I think personally that will just cheapen the word.

[iverglas]

139. thanks for the solidarity

[zappaman]

141. +1 n/t

[getdown]

168. Is someone doing that?

"And it IS sexist, IMHO, for anyone to assume what a woman (ie. the contest entrant in this case) thinks about the merits of her 'looks' or how she wants to dipslay them as a part of her persona."

If she wants to participate and ignore the sexist aspects of it. that's her business. No threat at all to the "hetero-banal apple cart"


"I say subvert and tip that fucking hetero-banal apple cart of a contest over."

How does having a "lipstick lesbian" contestant do that?


"The very nature of a beauty contest will ALWAYS, ipso facto," be sexist.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

204. i am not a big fan of beauty pageants, but i think being openly gay and a beauty pageant

is both newsworthy and worthy of discussing on du

again, this is my problem with the feminism/feminists on du, some of you need more than one lens to see the world with. this white middle class straight feminism that refuses to acknowledge other ways of being a feminist is infantile

[seabeyond]

205. yes, the discussion was so progressive, scoring the woman on her looks

Do tell me where the worthy discussion was? Her being just a mere 7 or maybe a 9.5 . Oh, lets talk about infatile.

About the only real conversation came later in this thread, after your lecture about the of worthy conversation to be had.

Tell me, what do you score her at? Did you take note of the nasty name calling by you buddies when women did stand up for her not to be scored, or is that a cutsey for you, to score women's looks?

[seabeyond]

206. 167. you might read rep and my conversation. it was ACTUALLY a conversation about exactly this.

[stevenleser]

229. Its a very second wave way of being a feminist which is why I reject it in favor of third wave

feminism. Someone asked me in the women's rights & issues forum what being a third waver means to me and I haven't had the chance to get back to them but I will do so in the context of the discussion here and link to it.

I am not in favor of beauty pageants for women or men, because I think that judging people primarily by physical beauty is done enough already and so we dont need additional mechanisms to enable it. I dont think that people judging each other (men judging women, women judging men, men judging men or women judging women) on beauty is necessarily sexist, but it is definitely superficial. That being said, one of the main ideas of liberation for each of the sexes is the opportunity for each woman and man to be able to do what they want to do and live the way they want to live. That is a core concept of third wave feminism.

Third wave feminism embraces two additional concepts here that are very important to this discussion. First is that sex and sexuality is a positive and beautiful thing which each consenting adult has the right to decide for themselves how they intend to enjoy and also that second wave feminism has nothing to say about issues outside of the gender binary but third wavers do.

What if this woman, as is very likely, wanted to appeal to other women by participating in this pageant? Shouldnt she be allowed to do that? Why can't the LGBT community be sexy and superficial on occasion if they want to be? A second waver wouldnt even consider that in their comments as it would never occur to them. What second wavers in this discussion dont seem to get is that in arguing this is a bad thing, they are denying this gay woman her right to be superficial if she wants to be and reinforcing patriarchy and straight priviledge.

If you want to know why I think third wave feminism is the right way to go about promoting equal rights for all women, this discussion thread is a really good example.

[iverglas]

245. aren't you wonderful

Third wave feminism embraces two additional concepts here that are very important to this discussion. First is that sex and sexuality is a positive and beautiful thing which each consenting adult has the right to decide for themselves how they intend to enjoy and also that second wave feminism has nothing to say about issues outside of the gender binary but third wavers do.

Gee, and you're not agist at all.

I was there. You weren't. You don't have a clue.

What if this woman, as is very likely, wanted to appeal to other women by participating in this pageant? Shouldnt she be allowed to do that?

As Miss Manners used to say: why do you ask?

Did someone say she SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED to do whatever the hell she wants to do?

Let me help you.

NO. No one said any such thing.

Here's one for you:

What if someone thinks that what someone else is doing is damaging to the cause of a vulnerable, disadvantaged group? Shouldn't they be allowed to say that?

Why can't the LGBT community be sexy and superficial on occasion if they want to be?

Who said they can't? Why is your question loaded with the false premise that someone has said they can't? Is this civil discourse?

Let me help you with that one too.

NO.

A second waver wouldnt even consider that in their comments as it would never occur to them.

This "second waver" thinks that if the only way you can make your own case is by making false allegations about other people, you have a really weak case.

What second wavers in this discussion dont seem to get is that in arguing this is a bad thing, they are denying this gay woman her right to be superficial if she wants to be and reinforcing patriarchy and straight priviledge.

What you seem quite determined not to get, in your efforts to shove your own agenda, is that what was objected to in this thread was the behaviour of some of the men who posted comments in this thread.

Interestingly, you've chosen to pretend otherwise, and to say nothing about that.

If that's "third wave feminism", give me patriarchy. At least it doesn't pretend.

If you want to know why I think third wave feminism is the right way to go about promoting equal rights for all women, this discussion thread is a really good example.

If you want to know why genuine feminists think your version of "third wave feminism" is a load of self-absorbed anti-intellectual malarky, read your post.

[stevenleser]

266. Thanks for noticing. Too bad you aren't.

>>Third wave feminism embraces two additional concepts here that are very important to this discussion. First is that sex and sexuality is a positive and beautiful thing which each consenting adult has the right to decide for themselves how they intend to enjoy and also that second wave feminism has nothing to say about issues outside of the gender binary but third wavers do.

>Gee, and you're not agist at all. I was there. You weren't. You don't have a clue.

You were there? At the pageant? I thought you were against pageants? If that is the argument you are making, I've seen pageants on tv as have most people. I think we all have clues.

Agist? What phrase of mine are you intentionally misinterpreting to allow you to make that one up?


>>What if this woman, as is very likely, wanted to appeal to other women by participating in this pageant? Shouldnt she be allowed to do that?

>As Miss Manners used to say: why do you ask? Did someone say she SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED to do whatever the hell she wants to do? Let me help you. NO. No one said any such thing.

Here is where you become intellectually dishonest. No, scratch that, here is where you put your intellectual dishonesty into high gear. No where did I assert you and other second wavers were trying to enact a law to disallow this person participating in a pageant. It's a rhetorical expression, but you already knew that. You are trying to make bullshit points here that mean absolutely nothing. So, let me rephrase the question in a way that doesnt allow you to take the discussion off onto a meaningless tangent. Can a gay woman participate in a pageant like this without people like you giving her a hard time. Shouldn't she be allowed to do that? There, was that really necessary?

>Here's one for you: What if someone thinks that what someone else is doing is damaging to the cause of a vulnerable, disadvantaged group? Shouldn't they be allowed to say that?

As I noted above, are you implying that someone has told you that you should/will not be allowed to say that? No, of course not. So you understand that point here, but you pretended you were ignorant of it when I suggested above "Shouldnt she be allowed to do that".

So, here is my response to your posit. If you can convince me that it is sexist when gay men ogle scantily clad men, gay women ogle scantily clad women and both heterosexual variations, then I and other third wavers won't call bullshit on you. M-kay?

>>Why can't the LGBT community be sexy and superficial on occasion if they want to be?

> Who said they can't? Why is your question loaded with the false premise that someone has said they can't? Is this civil discourse?

And now, you have flip-flopped back to asserting this kind of question is something other than what it is.

> Let me help you with that one too.

Oh boy, I cant wait to see this.

> NO.

And your false premise is asked and answered by you. Congrats.

>> A second waver wouldnt even consider that in their comments as it would never occur to them.

>This "second waver" thinks that if the only way you can make your own case is by making false allegations about other people, you have a really weak case.

Actually, my allegations seem to be right on. You have as much as proved them.

>>What second wavers in this discussion dont seem to get is that in arguing this is a bad thing, they are denying this gay woman her right to be superficial if she wants to be and reinforcing patriarchy and straight priviledge.

>What you seem quite determined not to get, in your efforts to shove your own agenda, is that what was objected to in this thread was the behaviour of some of the men who posted comments in this thread. Interestingly, you've chosen to pretend otherwise, and to say nothing about that. If that's "third wave feminism", give me patriarchy. At least it doesn't pretend.

So in order to make your point, you bring in things completely unrelated to what I was discussing as if I can only discuss the parts of this OP and discussion thread that you feel I should discuss. Thanks but no thanks.

>>If you want to know why I think third wave feminism is the right way to go about promoting equal rights for all women, this discussion thread is a really good example.

>If you want to know why genuine feminists think your version of "third wave feminism" is a load of self-absorbed anti-intellectual malarky, read your post.

If you want to know why third wave feminism was so sorely needed, you have only reinforced the point.

[Eliminator]

209. From the TOS:

DU is supposed to be fun — don't make it suck. You don't help.

[seabeyond]

210. i wanna hate on some wemmenz. dont take my fun away. whaaaaah. tough shit. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

260. Who is hating?

The only people in this thread insulting the woman in the OP are the tantrum-throwing anti-objectification police.

[seabeyond]

262. when you dehumanize a woman, that is hating.

and no, i have not said anything about this woman, other than discussing the bigger issue, which was the OPs point.

[Warren DeMontague]

265. No, it's not. See, you've decided to define what constitutes "dehumanization"

and the thing that bothers you the most is, this smart, attractive young woman who has CHOSEN to participate in the beauty contest- SHE DOESN'T AGREE.

Also, you didn't insult her, but other people pissed off about the beauty contest angle HAVE; it's the same shit we see with anti-choicers-- they love to imagine that women are the "victims" of the "abortion industry", but when women stand up and say "Sorry, this is my choice, I stand by it"- then the women have to be insulted and villainized. It's cognitive dissonance at its finest.

[seabeyond]

269. when you treat a PERSON like a thing, that is dehumanizing. and yes, that is hate.

nothing pisses me off about this womans choice, so afford me the courtesy of not telling me my thinking. i have never had a problem telling you what my issue is.

what pisses me off is men dehumanizing this woman.

i dont give a chit about the pageant or her participating in it. her choice. calling it sexist is a given. that is what a pageant is. challenging the person personal choice over the group of the whole is discussing an issue. we do it often. and will continue to do it.

it is what a discussion board does. discusses

what other women did on the thread has nothing to do with me. i replied where i had issue and did not participate or read any further.

[Warren DeMontague]

273. And I never said you were the one who insulted her.

There seems to be a recurring problem where you misinterpret my posts. Sometimes you think I've said something sort of like what I actually said, but you get a couple critical details wrong. I try to choose my words pretty carefully, so I'm usually saying exactly what I mean to say, deliberately.

[redqueen]

221. To many people, constant objectification isn't "fun".

Deal with it.

[Warren DeMontague]

259. So why the fuck is the woman that the OP is about not allowed to make up her own mind?

If DU was sticking you in a beauty contest against your will and then "objectifying" YOU, you might have a leg to stand on. But this thread isn't about YOU. Nor do you have the right to tell all women what they can or cannot do because YOU imagine that it somehow enables some remote mojo that makes YOUR life more difficult.

It's the same-ol' same-ol'. Endless justifications to try to run everyone else's life, and tossing crap and insults at them when they fail to toe the ideological line.

This thread is about someone who does not, apparently, share your negative view of beauty contests. You're certainly more than welcome to hide the thread if you don't like the content.

[redqueen]

274. Some of us hope for meaningful discussions. Not ratings.

It takes being thoughtful to figure this out.

Here is an example of a thoughtful post.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=135123

[Warren DeMontague]

276. You're having a meaningful discussion now, just with someone who doesn't agree with you.

Or maybe "meaningful" only means sitting in a properly vetted ideological echo chamber?

[redqueen]

282. When you're accusing me of making this issue about me,

that's not a meaningful conversation. I wasn't making it about me. I'm not the only woman here who is tired of the constant misogyny.

Most just don't bother to say anything because they know that like someone else already pointed out, most people don't have a problem with the sexism because they like it. A few of us bother to speak up and look what it gets, a bunch of people pissed off that they couldn't indulge in their objectification without being called on it.

Yes, those contestants and many others are fine with objectification. That doesn't mean nobody else gets to call it out. And if that pisses some people off, that's really just too bad.

[Warren DeMontague]

287. Actually, the vast majority of people DON'T agree with you.

They don't think there's anything wrong with beauty- male beauty, female beauty... nor do they think it's "dehumanizing" (much less "objectifying", not that that bs psychobabble term actually means anything) for a woman to choose to participate in one of these contests.

See, words -and terms- mean things, and part of the perpetual outrage on the part of the perpetual outrage crowd is that despite an endless series of lectures, re-education, and "consciousness raising" attempts, we DON'T all agree on the use, meaning, or appropriateness of the terms.

like, "constant misogyny"... well, shit, that sounds bad, doesn't it? How is it that here I'm supposed to be in the position of defending "constant misogyny", now? I don't want to defend that. Because "misogyny" means hatred of women. And there is hatred of women here... isn't there?

Wait, I'll look for it.

Oh, NOW I think I know what the problem is. You've decided, arbitrarily, that a woman participating in a beauty contest, and other people noting how attractive she is, constitutes "hatred" of her, and in fact of all women.


Except, it doesn't.

[redqueen]

291. Who said there was anything wrong with beauty?

You can play semantic games all you like. Enjoy, I'm not interested.

As for most people being fine with sexism, I know. Most people used to be fine with racism and homophobia, too.

The fun's over for racists. Homophobes are gradually losing their acceptability as well. Sexism will be the next to go. Enjoy it while you can.

[Warren DeMontague]

296. Again, where is hatred of women espoused in the OP, or any of the replies of admiration

for this brave young woman?

The ONLY "hatred" I've seen directed at the woman in question has come from people pissed off that she's in a beauty contest.

[stockholmer]

126. actually there are TWO open lesbians running in the contest, btw

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lesbian-beauty-contestant-20120107,0,2358281.story

Two lesbian contestants make history at Miss California USA

Jenelle Hutcherson of Long Beach and Mollie Thomas of West Hollywood, competing in Miss California USA this weekend, are the first openly gay contestants in the pageant's 60-year history.

"That Miss California crown would sure look nice atop the 'hawk," Hutcherson said, referring to her Mohawk hairstyle.

And Thomas wrote Friday on her Facebook fan page, "Interview, check! All-day rehearsal in five-inch heels, ouch! Bring it on."

snip

[Jean V. Dubois]

157. Yes, but one of them is pretty, and the other one isn't.

At least not in the conventional sense in the photo shown, which means the pretty one will get 99% of the attention.

Given that we're speaking of a beauty contest, that's hardly surprising.

[stockholmer]

173. here is an in-depth interview with Jenelle Hutcherson (Donald Trump personally invited her to run)

Great to see a butch and a femme both run. The more the merrier, I say.

http://www.shewired.com/lifestyle/2012/01/05/jenelle-hutcherson

Her late-night post on Facebook said it all. “So history has been made,” Jenelle Hutcherson wrote after becoming the first openly lesbian contestant in the Miss Long Beach (California) Pageant. “No crown and sash tonight, but doors opened that will never be shut again, many new friends and a whole new respect for the pageant world and what guts it takes to get up on that stage. On to Miss California USA!”

Hutcherson, a 26-year-old master hairstylist who works at Den Salon in the California coastal town of Long Beach, was the center of a media whirlwind surrounding the pageant, and unlike previous pageant attention when it comes to LGBT issues, this wasn’t because of a gaffe. Everyone embraced the woman who sports a mohawk, five tattoos, and piercings. Her press photos feature her with a No H8 motto and duct tape, and true to butch form, she made history by doing something else: wearing a tuxedo instead of a gown in the formal part of the pageant.

The attention and hard work wasn’t for naught. Even before the pageant began, Donald Trump, who runs the Miss California USA Pageant, had his office phone Hutcherson and invite her to compete on the statewide level. She didn’t even pause before accepting the challenge. The Bakersfield native, who is also a mentor at the LGBTQ Center of Long Beach, will carry her message of love, tolerance, and ending bullying to the Miss California Pageant, to be held this weekend at Palm Desert’s McCallum Theater. And whether she wins or not, she’ll make history. Even better? Besides those hundreds of new LGBT fans, her mother and stepfather (her dad died of AIDS when she was in grade school) are among her biggest supporters.

So many queer folks were excited to hear about your run for Long Beach. What was that like?

Jenelle Hutcherson: So many, I couldn’t believe it! It has been a humbling experience; I did this because Justin Rudd left me no reason to not participate but also because I could be myself. I, of course, have naysayers on both sides, though. You cannot make everyone happy. If anything, I did this for me, to make me happy. Turns out a whole bunch of other people thought it was a great idea too.

snip

[taught_me_patience]

218. She's my hairdresser!

Whoa... she's a cool woman, but not what I'd consider miss california material.

[REP]

167. I'm happy for her but have mixed feelings

I know she can use this opportunity - if she wants - to dispel a lot of misconceptions about gay women. And it's great to see anyone doing what she's "not supposed to" - in this case, be out and a beauty queen. That's awesome.

It's also great ... sort of ... that she feels so "mainstream" (for lack of a better word) that she wants to compete in a contest of who looks best in a swimming suit and heels, an outfit many women find themselves in daily; to be judged on her appearance in our premier Fat Cattle Show.

She's under no obligation as a young woman; or as a young woman with a French father; or a young woman who is gay and out; or any other combination to speak out against one of the ways women are judged and devalued. It's just a little weird that a quest for equality on one front (sexuality) involves diminishing equality on another (sex).

[seabeyond]

172. She's under no obligation as a woman...to speak out against one...ways women are judged and devalued

did we ask the same of cain, regarding being black with repug party. or steele? or the blacks and latinos that vote repug? or the poor that vote repug?

did we ask the same of the log cabin repugs supporting the republican party?

women supporting republican party?

of course every person in every of those groups have the right to their choice.

we certainly said something.

[getdown]

177. you said it

[REP]

181. Did you read my post or just pick out phrases?

Hard to tell from your phraseology. You tend to write in sentence fragments, and that often makes it for me to parse your meaning.

My post is about her making one step forward for GBLT equality while taking one back for women in general. I don't see you going after every contestant - straight, out or not - for the same thing you're taking this one gay woman to task for. But I might be missing something due to the way you communicate.

[seabeyond]

182. actually, i got the delicateness of your post and hear what you are saying

i get it. one of the few on this thread actually discussing the paradox of it as opposed to rating the woman by numbers. i appreciated your post.

the last part though, caught my attention and i have to wonder why?

we say that a young woman has no obligation to consider her actions to the whole of her gender when we ask the same of so many others. just as an example, those i listed.

i was not being critical, nor non appreciative of the thoughtfulness of your post.

[REP]

184. No criticism of you meant either

I honestly do have a hard time understanding your writing sometimes. The fault may lie with me

[seabeyond]

186. The fault may lie with me

no, it doesnt, lol.

some find it easy to read. others that are probably more structured (grammatically anyway) have a tougher time. but, i get that. i try to edit for clarity and i am always willing to clarify if someone asks.

[REP]

187. We are used to women kissing their chains but shocked when true minorities do it

Black Americans, GBLT Americans, Hispanic Americans - these are true minority groups in America (even though GBLT people can of the majority in other ways). Women are the majority sex by a hair no matter how you dice the numbers (although I'm not sure about the GBLT numbers, but by race it's true). And we're used to women like Phyllis Schaefley, Sarah Palin, Michele Bachman et alia who have left traditional roles behind to make a healthy living telling other women to take off their shoes, get in the kitchen and pop out (more) babies.

So when an out gay women makes it to Miss America, (some of us) expect her to break down even more barriers, be even more radical. Is this fair - to her, the movement for GBLT equal rights? Not really, but that doesn't make it feel any better.

Yet I'm still glad to see the "not supposed to" doing what she damn well feels like. As I said, mixed feelings.

[seabeyond]

189. i am glad she is the one to win, breaking that glass ceiling of norm

i am sad she is reduced to men on du not appreciating that but feeling more important to place a number on her.

i get it.

[redqueen]

201. A minority, in the sociological sense (not the dominant group), is not a numerical concept.

Women are, in this sociological context, a true minority.

[redqueen]

200. "It's just a little weird that a quest for equality on one front (sexuality) involves diminishing

equality on another (sex)."

Bravo.

[Dreamer Tatum]

240. I think the same crap goes on in the lesbian community as in the straight community.

Look at every lesbian celebrity - nearly every one. Almost invariably there is a hot woman on their arm, just like hetero men.
Which is fine, so I don't see why an openly gay woman in a pageant would merit any raised eyebrows at all. This woman will
probably end up on the arm of some celebrity lesbian, soon, anyway.

[redqueen]

275. " I don't see why an openly gay woman in a pageant would merit any raised eyebrows at all"

Same here.

[iverglas]

180. snork

Yeah, no collagen in those lips.



I comment not on her looks, you see, just on the hilarious reaction of the boys' brigade to them.

[iverglas]

188. what didn't take long

was for you to post your next false representation of what I said.

How does it feel to be that boring?

For the record, you don't get an upper lip that bulges up and out on the sides and has that strange central indent without a bad collagen job.







The comment on the site where that last one appears is: "They look like porn star lips". We could all think about that if we wanted.

In other cultures and other times, this would be called self-mutilation.

But today on DU, it's called 7 out of 10. Or maybe 8.

And That's what I'm talking about!

[iverglas]

191. you have no scruples at all, do you?

Respect for the truth must have been drummed out of you at a young age, for it to be so thoroughly absent.

Either that, or the rage has blinded you and you really believe what you're saying about me.

Hard to say.

[zappaman]

195. Please don't put me in the 7 or 8 out of 10 brigade.

I gave her a 9.5.
And you have no idea if she had work done on her lips, so it's quite funny to see you make assertions you can't back up.

[WingDinger]

214. Used to go bar hopping in Long beach. A tranny crew would come in. Bout twelve of them.

All the guys were floored, and dropped whatever hottie they were chatting up, to hit on them. They had charicatured female features.

All the tricks. For fun, I asked one that was being hit on, if she would like a drink. The guy wanted to fight. He nor many of the guys even knew. They were moths to the flame, for big lips, and other tricks.

All the freshly ignored women must have been flummoxed.

[Vanje]

193. Deep. Thats real deep.

[ZombieHorde]

196. The reason beauty pageants for women are regressive

is the context of human history. Women are not valued for their thoughts, they are valued for their potential to make men aroused. Women are paid less than men for the same work, women bloggers are threatened and ridiculed for their appearance, women do not have equal access to higher religious posts in many mainstream religions, etc.

Beauty pageants reinforce the view points that lead to these behaviors. Sure, there is a question and answer portion, but the dumbest answers get the most press.

If there was no history of oppression for women, then beauty pageants would just be silly fun, but that is not the case.

Men aren't really oppressed for their gender, so beauty pageants for men don't really matter.

[seabeyond]

199. +1. nt

[redqueen]

203. "Men aren't really oppressed for their gender, so beauty pageants for men don't really matter."

Precisely. Thank you.

[Jean V. Dubois]

211. Beauty pagents for women don't really matter either, in the grand scheme of things.

[redqueen]

222. Objectification is dehumanization.

Guess what kind of things dehumanization enables.

Go on, guess.

[Jean V. Dubois]

233. Ok, I will.

Guess what kind of things dehumanization enables.

Go on, guess.

Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies, rivers and seas boiling, forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes...the dead rising from the grave. Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

How did I do?

[Jean V. Dubois]

290. Consider them added to the list!

[redqueen]

271. Violence.

But it's all a big joke to you so nevermind. Forget I asked.

[Jean V. Dubois]

285. I freely admit that people getting upset about beauty pageants *is* a big joke to me.

Since we're ranking things on a scale of 1 to 10 in this thread, I'll rate beauty pageants as an issue about which to be concerned:

1.001...which is rather less than my concern over the accuracy of the lyrics that the dwarves will be singing in the upcoming "Hobbit" movie later this year.

[redqueen]

298. You don't even acknowledge that objectification exists.

So I see no point in continuing to try to discuss it with you.

[zappaman]

301. none n/t

[ZombieHorde]

237. If by "grand scheme of things," you mean beauty pageants for women

are not as bad as institutional sexism, such as denying women the right to vote and income inequality, then I agree. However, I think beauty pageants hinder the efforts for gender equality. The pageants aren't an outrage, but they certainly don't help.

If by "grand scheme of things," you mean beauty pageants for women don't really matter the same way the extinction of all life on Earth wouldn't matter because Earth is just a spec in the universe, then I agree. However, I think we can try to make life as nice as possible in the mean time.

[Jean V. Dubois]

238. They may not help the cause of gender equality, but I don't think they hurt it in any meaningful way

And in any case, isn't watching pretty women part of making life as nice as possible?

[ZombieHorde]

241. I am a straight male, so I love looking at beautiful women, but that is not really the point.

In our culture, men are usually perceived by their accomplishments, while women are usually perceived by their appearance and relationships. Exceptions exist, but they are rare. This can be very frustrating for many women.

I think beauty pageants contribute to these undesirable cultural norms because the dumbest answers to the judges' questions, and the most appealing appearance in a swim suit according to current cultural standards, receive the most press.

This is not any single person's fault, it is engrained in our culture. The goal of feminism is to get more and more people to see what is happening, and then culture will change.

[Jean V. Dubois]

242. I think you're running up against human nature.

Even after being presented with the feminist viewpoint, many men's reaction is "I agree, that's sexist...and I don't care because I like it".

While the culture can be influenced by movements such as feminism, I think there are limits. Many (most?) guys are always going to judge women, at least in part, by their appearance.

[ZombieHorde]

243. Perhaps, but I am encouraged by the progress that has been made over the generations.

Slapping a woman on the ass at work is no longer acceptable, even though some men enjoy it.

Punching one's wife face is no longer acceptable, even though some men enjoy it.

I think we should see how much progress is possible. I think we should try to discover the limits of human enlightenment. I don't know what those limits are, but I don't think we have reached them yet.

[Jean V. Dubois]

247. The problem being, of course, the definition of what exactly is "enlightenment".

Morality is a human invention, after all. It's not as if the universe enforces it the way it does conservation of momentum. It's opinion.

[ZombieHorde]

288. Sure, all value is subjective.

Concepts like the golden rule aren't mathematical facts, they are a means to an end.

An end I value is cultural gender equality. I believe one of the first steps toward cultural gender equality is the recognition that there isn't gender equality in our culture. I think we need to examine where we are, were we want to be, and then how to bridge the two.

Some people value cultural gender inequality for various reasons; e.g., religion, tradition, convenience, etc., but each one of those reasons should be a different debate in my opinion. I assume the majority of DUers desire gender equality in our culture, we just disagree on the details.

[seabeyond]

244. "I agree, that's sexist...and I don't care because I like it".

yes. something to brag about.

yes, i get calling a black a n****r is wrong. i dont care, it is fun and makes me feel superior.

yes, i get teasing and taunting a gay is wrong but makes me feel like a man so i am going to do it anyway

and you say this outloud? wow

cause after all, that is only human nature. can't be any better than that.

[Jean V. Dubois]

246. Context is everything. Read more closely, please.

yes. something to brag about.

When did I brag?

I said, "many men's reaction is "I agree, that's sexist...and I don't care because I like it"."

and you say this outloud? wow

*I* don't say this out loud, but I asserted that many men do. Do you disagree that this is the case?

[seabeyond]

248. ok, you are not bragging, it is the other men that say that, that is bragging

and no different than they doing the same with racism and homophobia.

right?

[Jean V. Dubois]

249. I don't know that "bragging" is the best word. I think "justifying" or "rationalizing"

would be better...or even simply "explaining".

In any case, racism and homophobia are much less acceptable in today's society than sexism, so it's not the best analogy.

[seabeyond]

250. i think it is bragging and about their entitlement wrapped up in them feeling like men

to their buddies.

and it is an excellent analogy in my opinion, because it is exactly the same except one is acceptable and the other two are not

hence the offensiveness of saying something like that to a black cause it is fun to feel superior and the giggle to do to women because it is acceptable.

[Jean V. Dubois]

280. As I've pointed out, morals and ethics are essentially opinions.

What's acceptable in 21st Century America isn't the same as it is in any other time or place.

[seabeyond]

284. pointless unwillingness to call it what it is. nt

[redqueen]

278. "racism and homophobia are much less acceptable in today's society than sexism"

Why?

Why is sexism so acceptable to so many?

[Jean V. Dubois]

279. Valid question, but I don't think there's any question that it is the case.

[redqueen]

283. It needs to be addressed.

Society is drenched in it. Enough is enough. It is not too much to expect people to stop ignoring these issues. Simply stating that that's just how it is is not acceptable.

We would never say that to anyone who called out racism or homophobia. It's inexcusable to attempt to treat sexism that way.

[seabeyond]

286. he wont answer cause then they gotta own it. so skirt away, around, under and over

all one can cause

being a sexist is FUN

[Jean V. Dubois]

294. Answer what, exactly? This thread is getting a bit convoluted.

I thought I'd replied to every post addressed to me, but perhaps I missed one. Could you point it out, please?

Thanks!

[redqueen]

297. I can't believe that was said.

It's fun, so forget about changing it. What a world.

[zappaman]

299. "being a sexist is FUN"

to who?
amazing you can't participate in a discussion without making strawmen up.
maybe you should heed your own advice? http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002135290#post1

And why does it exist?
My opinion is that like racism and homophobia, it all stems from the bible and our puritanical ways.
The bible is ridiculously male-dominated.
Eventually, it will go away and has certainly gotten better over time.
Is that answer okay?

[redqueen]

302. It was paraphrasing what someone else said...

they gave it as an example of most men's reaction to being told that objectifying women is wrong. ("I agree, that's sexist...and I don't care because I like it".)

[zappaman]

305. Oh, paraphrasing...hence the use of quote marks.

got it.
for some reason, I thought it was a quote.
can't imagine why.
so you're paraphrasing too?
how come I don't see those paraphrases in the posters quotes?
guess I don't bring the same baggage to the discussion...

[redqueen]

307. Because you're not paying attention?

The quotes are in the post where the hypothetical response was originally made.

As for your baggage, I think it's showing quite clearly (focusing on technicalities to avoid the issue, failing to notice details in your rush to demonize, etc.)

[Warren DeMontague]

304. That's not the only thing that's fun.

[Jean V. Dubois]

289. Ok. It's not acceptable and and inexcusable. Now what?

Bringing it back to the issue at hand, what do you propose *doing* about beauty pageants?

[redqueen]

295. I propose that people stop pretending that it's all just harmless fun.

I propose that people treat the issue as thoughtfully as this person did.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=135123

I propose that people stop acting as if treating women like things - whose most important quality is their appearance - is just fine and dandy and nothing to get too worked up about.

A few people upthread did at least try to include the woman's character and individuality in their (ugh) ratings.

In this society girls absorb the message that what matters most is how they look at a very early age. This is stunting our progress as a society. It is not treated as a serious problem, but it is a serious problem.

[AverageJoe90]

207. Good luck, Mollie! n/t =D

[obamanut2012]

215. After reading this thread over two days, I have some thoughts

1. I very much dislike beauty pageants. I think they send a bag message to young girls, and do judge women like a "meat market." I will say that at least the Miss America outfit does gives out college scholarships on the state and national levels.

2. That being said, women have a right to do this, and I know a few have done this to get causes they feel deeply about attention (ie the hearing-impaired Miss America, can't think of her name), and I think this is what Mollie is doing. Good for her if it is. It's already working. I wish posters wouldn't rip her for her decision.

3. I think Mollie's lips are real. I know several people IRL with natural lips like that, and women like Angelina Jolie, Julia Roberts, Gia Carangi, and Cindy Crawford have or had natural lips like that. I read alot of celebrity and fashion gossip, more than I should, and Mollie's lips do not have that insane fake look like, say, Lindsey Lohan.

4. I feel bad for William769, because I think this thread went very awry from what he intended when he posted this bit of news.

5. I still have no idea how Sasha Grey was introduced into this thread and refuse to go reread that sub thread, because it's too early for me to start drinking.

[William769]

216. Your #4 is right on the money.

[obamanut2012]

217. I thought so

And, it's a shame. I wish it had been more positive.

[Eliminator]

219. Yeah, too bad

Maybe if everything in the world wasn't sexism to a few people around here...But you're going to get this shit every time a post talks about anything to do with women and something even REMOTELY sexual. Because we have social conservative puritans here who just love to pounce on it.

[opiate69]

236. + a brazillion

[seabeyond]

220. what i have a problem with is a thread that goes on to talk about women that dared to say anything,

in another forum. all i did was stand up for a woman not being given numbers. she is a 7. well i give her a 9. nah, just a seven.

there were few conversations about the real issue.

but, it is the women called out. men thru out the thread dehumanized this woman, not talked about the issue. then men, thru out this thread used cutsey little name calling of hysterical, pearl clutchers, when women said, she is a person.

then.... they start another thread in another forum to call out the women.

that, i have issue with.

and my post was to bring an awareness how we were NOT treating her like a woman, with a mind that made a decision and broke the glass norm of beauty pageants. but i have a poster on MY ass saying i am being unfair to the woman.

so i want to know,

what number is she. a 7 or a 9?

[obamanut2012]

223. Why would I rate Mollie?

I don't get why you're asking me that. The only thing I did in the whole thread was defend Sasha Grey, because it bothered me. You know I'm a feminist. I think this could have been a very positive thread with a good dialogue, but it crashed and burned.

I don't know anything about the callout thread, but it doesn't surprise me.

[seabeyond]

224. why isnt the issue spelled out and what started it was the dehumanizing of this woman RATING her.

i am not asking you specifically, i know you are not rating her. it is a post to all.

the issue was a gay woman, winning a pageant for the first time. we have a thread of men dehumanizing this woman, rating her like an animal.

we have men telling women not to object or.... they are called names

we have a thread on another forum calling out the women and not a mention of the mens behavior on this thread

i have a poster on my ass without the grace to say, i was one of the few talking about the relevant issue.

as far as grey goes? just another way to dishonesty call out prudes. ignore the fact the woman did it FOR it to gain her attention. the only way she could do that is let parents KNOW she is xporn actress. but lets pretend that is not relevant.

this whole thread was to diss women one way or another. the men had a field day, dehumanizing the pageant winner, or going after women on the board

and NO ONE calls them out.

guys are on a high today.

[obamanut2012]

225. That is what my #4 was

William769 meant it as a positive about LGBT rights, etc.

We will have to disagree about Sasha Grey, because I don't think that's why she did it. You also asked me what I would rate her, and that took me aback, because I stated I don;t agree with pageants.

I would post what you wrote to me above in H & M, especially since there is a thread in another DU forum about this.

[seabeyond]

226. that is why i posted to the op about the direction his OP went. unfortantely, all the blame seems

to be addressing the women on this thread. that, i am disappointed with.

dont mind disagreeing on any particular issue. if she wanted to enjoy the children and do a service, she could have. she took it a step further. that was her choice.

but i dont get the last sentence of yours....

[William769]

227. I never rated her.

I only said she was beautiful. And I'll say it again she is smart, beautiful and ground breaking.

I have not seen any other threads so i cannot comment on them.

[seabeyond]

228. i know you did not rate her. i didnt say that you did. i know your intent with the post

and that is not the direction it went. men started rating her. women called the men out for rating her like an animal, less than human. dehumanizing her. that, she didnt deserve.

then women were attacked by names. desexualizing them. and then.... you start a thread about the moralist. a poster goes after me because i am a white, middle aged hetero. when i was one of the few actually talking about what your intent for the OP was.

ya

it was depressing to see.

[seabeyond]

264. so? who cares. you rate her like an animal. i am so very fuckin impressed. nt

[seabeyond]

270. check out the way people buy animals. no different. nt

[zappaman]

268. who rates animals?

seems to me he rated her like a judge in the pageant she is in will rate her.

[justiceischeap]

277. Judges at dog and cat shows. nt

[zappaman]

281. true...my bad

QBs in the NFL as well.
Sometimes I forget that just about everything and everyone is rated these days.

[justiceischeap]

303. Can't get away from it. Look at Survivor, that's worse than rating. nt

[justiceischeap]

230. Sasha got introduced in this thread because of me (inadvertently)

I took objection to this woman's desire to participate in the pageant to highlight LGBTQ youth issues being compared to the porn industry (then someone else brought in Sasha Grey because someone else compared this to the porn industry).

I agree with William769 that this is a positive step for the LGBTQ community.

I also believe that pageants do a disservice to women but I also believe that if women want to participate in it, it is their choice.

IMO, as a feminist, it's important to allow women to do what they wish (even if it's bad for women overall because taking the freedom away from women to do what they want is just as bad). Even though I feel this is a positive step for the LGBTQ community, I won't support the pageant by watching it but I will wish Mollie well because, as you do, I think she is doing this for a positive reason. Sometimes you have to use the tools you have to bring awareness to certain issues.

[obamanut2012]

234. Cosign on your entire post

You said it better than I did.

And thanks for clearing that up about Sasha Grey! She just APPEARED in the thread!

[justiceischeap]

239. I went back up and read what prompted Sasha's appearance

and basically the commenter said that Mollie appearing in a beauty pageant was akin to Sasha Grey being in porn and then reading to children and not expecting it to have a negative impact. Because apparently parents don't want beauty pageant contestants reading to their kids.

Thanks for the compliment.

[William769]

306. I am going to self delete the OP

I will leave you with this thought.

Mollie Thomas is a bright and beautiful person, I wish her the best at whatever she sets her mind to.