Some of y'all mocked Nadler's, Schiff's, Neal's and Cummings' "strongly-worded letters"

[StarfishSaver]

But Judge Beryl Howell today cited and quoted from Nadler's letters in today's blockbuster ruling ordering DOJ to turn over the grand jury materials.

As some of us tried to explain, those letters were a necessary part of the process that were absolutely critical to getting the ruling we got today.

There's a method to the madness.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Some Monday-morning quarterbacks haven't a clue how government and law work,

but nevertheless feel compelled to offer their angry, uninformed opinions. It's frustrating.

[we can do it]

8. Exactly.

[Thekaspervote]

9. Oh my!!! The voice of sanity... thankyou!!

[soldierant]

91. Adding my gratitude for the voice of sanity.

[2naSalit]

17. Have to agree with you.

Not that I wouldn't. Due process is what we're getting from House Democratic leaders, they get it and are moving as quickly and expediently as the process allows yet without leaving wide open gaps for any argument other than the one they provide.

They are doing their job.

[littlemissmartypants]

25. This quote often comes to mind.....

It's why I plead the fifth on a regular basis.

[panader0]

48. My Mexican buddies have a saying:

En boca cerrado no entran moscas.

In a closed mouth, no flies can enter.

[CaptainTruth]

27. I wish some folks would spend as much time educating themselves as they do complaining.

That was especially true on Twitter. I saw some folks who clearly had internet access (they have a Twitter account) & spent hours complaining & bashing what Democrats were doing, but they clearly didn't spend an equal amount of time researching & educating themselves so they could understand what was happening.

It seems like some folks would rather complain & insult others than learn. It was frustrating & disappointing to me.

[Perseus]

29. Isn't it better to tell the good news without the bashing of people who had different opinions?

That is like giving someone a kiss and then a slap in the face.

So some people were wrong, or maybe just frustrated. Not sure what is gained from pointing fingers to unknowns who disagreed with those more knowledgeable about the workings of government.

My hat off to those who know very well how government works, I am glad there are those of you who can teach all others.

I am reading now all other posts and all you have done is, instead of discussing the good news, people talking about how wrong other people were, hoe they wish people would educate themselves better, etc.

Not sure who wins here.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

53. It's not a matter of bashing those with different opinions; the problem arises

when opinions are based on ignorance or incorrect information. As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts. And all of the information about how the government works is easily found on-line for those who might have slept through their high school civics classes; it's not rocket science. The Constitution should be required reading, for starters. If you don't want to read court opinions (and I get that), it's easy enough to find accurate synopses and explanations of them. Being a responsible citizen (and voter) should mean knowing some basic things about the government and the legal system - at least the ability to pass the citizenship test required of immigrants.

It's especially frustrating to see, over and over, comments bashing the very people who are trying their best to deal with an unprecedented situation where the law is being ignored and abused; comments by people who don't know what's in the Constitution; or why the courts don't and can't fix everything immediately; or why judges aren't necessarily corrupt unless they were appointed by a Democrat; or why any judicial opinion we don't agree with isn't likely to be the result of bias or corruption on the part of the judge; or why the election can't be thrown out and Hillary Clinton appointed president - and so forth (all are complaints that have appeared more than once on DU).

[empedocles]

57. Well and patiently put. Thank you.

[Perseus]

68. There is a lot of bashing, read the posts. Just teach those who do not know, but

making fun of them/us, or pointing fingers doesn't do any good to anyone. Most of the posts ended up criticizing those who were impatient, or as they put it, ignorant about the workings of government, so tell me, how does that help? Is the goal to shut down somebody else opinions?

There has been a lot of frustration about the time democrats have taken to get to this point, about the abuses that have taken place and no visible action has been seen from the Democratic leaders, and I have to believe that most of the people who claim to be experts on the working of government have had hunches as well because unless you are IN government you don't know what is really going on in there.

Don't tell me that with all the proof of wrongdoing that trump and minions have committed, the crimes and misdemeanors they have committed, that we had to wait this long to begin impeachment inquiry. I read "Impeachment: A Citizen's Guide" by Cass R. Sunstein, in that book he explains all the possible crimes and misdemeanors that trump could have been accused of and proven very easily that he committed (videos, tweets, etc.), so it is frustrating for a lot of people to see that nothing is happening. You see, not everyone has the insights that some people here seem to have, I for one can only see what the TV and articles at home and abroad tell me.

To see so many republicans ignore subpoenas and not be punished is very frustrating, but of course those who know the workings of government must have found it as the normal modus operandi while the rest of us have felt despair and disappointment.

So don't tell me that it is frustrating to see, over and over, comments bashing the very people who are trying their best...It is more frustrating to see, at least from what we can see (not the inner workings), that nothing is going on to prevent people ignoring subpoenas, not being made accountable, the creature and Barr continuing to break the law every day, no impeachment for Barr, etc. etc. That is frustrating, it feels like the nightmare will never end, and at least for me who has lived the same kind of situation the USA is living today, it is very scary. I have seen this picture before, and the more time Democrats take, the worst the ending, its almost like to get a cut, see it infect it and just sit and watch while it gets worst and worst, there is a point where it gets so bad that gangrene takes over and the limb must be cut, and that limb can never grow back again, it is the same when a destructive regime takes over a country and those who can just sit and watch, and for those of us who are not inside it becomes very frustrating and very scary.

The bottom line is that as frustrating as it may seem to you to read frustrating posts, the bashing of those who are frustrated benefits no one, and because of the original post, the majority of the comments were reduced to bashing the frustrated instead of discussing the pros and cons of the news. Sorry, your "detailed explanation" may have been good to someone, but I don't think anyone won here, we lost the opportunity to discuss an important piece of news.

[stopdiggin]

80. nope. sorry. frustrated doesn't equate a valid opinion.

Lots of people frustrated .. so that doesn't cut it. Plenty of opportunity to educate yourself around here .. all you have to do is listen occasionally. If you insist on running your mouth (repeatedly) when you don't know jack .. you can kind of expect to have your nosed rubbed in it when the die finally turns.

[Perseus]

85. You are confusing two things

One is that its not solely frustration, it is the frustration driven by the lack of action, at least the lack of visual action from our Democratic leaders, and that cuts it, mostly when you have lived in similar situations and know the end result is not good, and the other is that you assume that those who are frustrated are "running their mouths off" because they are ignorant, that is a big assumption on your part.

Two, have you ever lived in a society though its decline? Have you ever lived in a country where you see Democracy, freedoms, justice, etc. simply vanish right in front of your eyes? Knowing that the country is being destroyed and those who can do something about it are sitting like spectators? If you have not then it is hard for you to comprehend that "frustration" is a real thing, it is fear, it is panic, because where one sits, of course excluding those who have the insights of how government works, things are not going well, they are slowly but surely evaporating, the thugs thumbing their noses at the law, and at least VISIBLY, nothing happening. McGhan and others still roaming around with no accountability, Barr giving religious speeches, lying to Congress in front of the World and no one doing anything about it.

I would like to know what the discussion will be if the judge's ruling of today goes nowhere, to the same place where many of these have gone, then I want to see the insights of those who know so much, but I won't blame or ridicule anyone who may feel frustration because of it, because they were wrong.

And by you saying "when you don't know jack" I have to assume that you do know a lot. If you do, then share your vast knowledge with the rest of us, help DU become more knowledgeable. To be a critic is very easy, and to say that those people who "do not know jack" without imparting your knowledge is also very easy when you don't. Do you know of any movie critic who has made an Oscar wining movie?

[mcar]

74. So well said, Velveteen

I find it interesting, that some feel it's perfectly fine for the near constant mocking and deriding of our Democratic leaders. But, when they are shown to be wrong, they object and say it's unfair for those mocking to be criticized in any way. Odd, that.

[happy feet]

92. This!

[mcar]

65. How is it bashing?

Some on social media were relentless in their uninformed, snide mocking of our Democrats.

They were wrong. Now we should be nice to them? No, thanks.

[Perseus]

69. Wasn't the original post referring to members of DU? Who in the original poster's view got it wrong.

We still do not know what is going to happen to the decision of the judge, what republicans and the White House are going to do with it and how long it will take or how it will be resolved, but as I saw it, the bashing was to people on DU who became frustrated by the seemingly inaction of our Democratic leaders, about the useless stern letters that were sent to republicans.

We still have a bunch of people who were subpoena, who ignored it, and still walking around with no worries. Why??? Why is it that Democratic leaders have not jailed them? That is not frustrating? or is there a hidden strategy that we don't know of?

Not sure which social media you are referring to.

Anyway, we need to educate our DU members when we get it wrong, DU members must be united, we want the same result and that is to get rid of the creature and win the Senate.

Did you read all the posts? 80% of them are bashing those of us who are frustrated, do not understand the inner working of government and got it wrong, or did we?

[mcar]

73. But the "stern letters" weren't useless

That's the OP's point.

[Perseus]

88. There were more stern letters that were useless

[stopdiggin]

82. you're illustrating the point made

"Why is it that Democratic leaders have not jailed them? That is not frustrating?"

frustrating perhaps .. but also an illustration of seriously uninformed

[Perseus]

86. Then, by no means, please inform

Don't leave us in suspense, please tell us all about it.

I can accept to being "seriously uninformed", I am OK with that, but don't accuse me if you are not telling me why, by any measure you are also seriously uniformed and you are just pretending to know.

[NastyRiffraff]

101. Google is your friend

or it can be. Lots of readily available information can be had, fairly easily. Why should someone on DU have to do your research for you? Besides, some have patiently tried, only to be mocked and dismissed. Perfectly understandable that someone doesn't want to provide a mini course in how our government works.

[whopis01]

94. Having a different opinion and spreading false information

are two different things.

[MontanaMama]

2. I've learned a lot from you SFS.

I very much appreciate your posts...they're measured and informed. Thank you.

[sheshe2]

4. I agree with you, MontanaMama.

[pandr32]

11. Ditto for me!

[Hekate]

15. What you said

[BlueMTexpat]

21. My two cents here

as well, SFS! Many thanks!

But I have not been among the non-believers. The process itself is very important and some here have been too impatient.

[littlemissmartypants]

22. Hear, hear! nt

[CaptainTruth]

28. +1

[Collimator]

66. Yes. "Measured and informed"

Two of the highest words of praise one can offer about any leader.

Sure, a little charisma is important to draw people's interest, but some people (not naming names here) have that and absolutely NONE of the other two things.

And yes, I do realize the praise was directed at a Poster and not a government leader, but leadership comes in many forms. One can lead by example on a simple forum just by writing things that are worth reading and directed towards furthering a higher cause.

[NBachers]

78. Yes, I look to SFS's posts for informed, straight, and perceptive information.

[ismnotwasm]

3. I think people think there is a law fairy

Who sprinkles magic instant legal gratification dust.

[bluecollar2]

10. Same ones think that that same fairy

Sprinkles instant contract pay increases and better health benefits in contract negotiations, then blame the union for interfering.

[ismnotwasm]

24. Yeah.

[druidity33]

93. Just heard someone in my shop complain

they were upset they weren't getting a raise this year... normally we get them on the anniversary of our hire date and his is in October. Everyone got a raise this March of $1 at the contract signing, (which is damn good for a $13 an hour employee btw) and he will get another $1 next October and another $1 the October after that. The last contract period had a yearly 1.5% wage increase which amounted to something like 21 cents a year for him. Yet he is complaining to everyone that will listen that he didn't get a raise this year.

[dem4decades]

6. I would think Norm Eisen had something to do with it and he's the man.

Nadler just couldn't control his Lewandowski hearing.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

60. Can you please expound on that thought?

[Cracklin Charlie]

7. Process.

Professionalism
Persistence

Win

[jberryhill]

12. Yup

[mcar]

13. Oh, now, don't make them give up their longtime talking point

[FakeNoose]

14. Once again, you've called it correctly

Thanks StarfishSver!

[TwilightZone]

16. But, they're not doooooooing anything!

Yeah, that was getting a little tiresome.

Social media and short attention spans. Instant gratification is the expectation of many.

[Gothmog]

18. Chairman @RepJerryNadler released the following statement

Link to tweet

[MFGsunny]

32. KUDOS for competence! Congrats on the results. Yes, we know it's not all done yet.

Instant gratification is much like a useless sugar-high.

Serious matters in serious times are better served by serious actions to obtain serious outcomes.

Seriously.

[SayItLoud]

19. How long until they appeal? NT

[ancianita]

20. Sometime by the 30th. After that, their appeal would face a tough court.

[NurseJackie]

23. The mockers would have failed miserably if they'd been in charge. Experience and patience counts.

I trust Nancy. I trust Adam... I trust ALL of our leadership. They know what they're doing. They're not slouches. They're not "afraid". They're not "cowards". They're not "complicit".

There are many who owe them a debt of gratitude AND others (politicians included) who owe them an APOLOGY for the rude and insulting things they've said.

[littlemissmartypants]

26. Kicked and recommended. ❤ nt

[wellst0nev0ter]

30. The Mueller report was released in April

Democrats requested the grand jury material and redacted portions in July, gets stonewalled, and now here in October, a judge hands down a ruling.

And you are taking a victory lap? Do you like being outplayed?

[TwilightZone]

34. So what was your brilliant plan?

Since it appears that you're an expert on how the process should have gone, what exactly, including specific details, would you have done differently?

Please provide valid sources that confirm that all details of your plan were feasible within the limitations of Congressional processes and procedures and the judicial system.

[wellst0nev0ter]

45. They can jail officials for inherent contempt today if they want to

It's time to play hardball, not pattycake.

[StarfishSaver]

49. Actually, they can't - but let's suppose they could and did ... Then what?

[wellst0nev0ter]

54. Yes they can, enough with the cold feet

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/why-democrats-congress-should-use-inherent-contempt-force-trump-officials-ncna1058861

[StarfishSaver]

55. Let's suppose they arrest Bill Barr and lock him up in the Capitol basement.

Then what?

[wellst0nev0ter]

59. Then lock up other people

This isn't complicated.

[StarfishSaver]

64. And then what?

[TidalWave46]

70. The end goal is to get the information or compel someone to appear.

Is that goal best served by the approach taken or by arresting someone for inherent contempt?

Something I don’t know is what happens after someone is arrested for inherent contempt? I doubt the information, if I’m the form of hard or electronic documents, can be sieved. But I don’t know.

We need to let the courts decide, IMO. It has to be the first step. It’s a big day having the courts uphold the power of congress to do this at this time.

[StarfishSaver]

71. If someone were arrested under inherent contempt - which is very unlikely since they'd no doubt

get an order enjoining the arrest as soon as a warrant order was issued - they'd likely be released on habeas corpus grounds within an hour. And then the case would be tied up in court for months or years.

As I said ... Then what?

[TidalWave46]

72. I like the path chosen. NT

[mcar]

75. I appreciate your persistence

[stopdiggin]

84. we need to put this to bed

this is another uninformed statement that has far outlasted it's shelf life. It is NOT going to happen. Unworkable, unenforceable .. unrealistic. Please just stop.

[StarfishSaver]

89. Not going to happen

When you've spent the last few months attacking Pelosi for not impeaching and whining about relying on the courts because it takes too long - only to have Pelosi drive toward impeachment with a vengeance and the courts repeatedly put the hammer down on Trump in record time, and your goal isn't really impeachment but something else ... all you've got left is to keep screaming "they need to lock them up through inherent contempt!"

[gab13by13]

31. I don't agree with the premise,

People didn't disagree (well some did) with what Democrats are doing, they were merely stating a fact that Trump/Barr wanted everything to go the courts where the clock would run out.
This was a huge decision today, however, because the judge gave legitimacy to the impeachment inquiry and that should help Democrats a lot. With that said, I'm sure that Trump will appeal this and it could go to the SC. Will everything be expedited in time for the impeachment proceedings?

[Perseus]

39. "Will everything be expedited in time for the impeachment proceedings?"

I hope the people on this board who know well how government works can answer that question, its a very good one.

[NonPC]

33. But Wait...

Just because a Federal Judge ordered it, doesn't mean that Bill Barr's DOJ is going to turn it over. I would bet dollars to donuts that they ignore the ruling. Not sure what happens after that.

[StarfishSaver]

35. People who ignore federal judges' orders tend to get thrown in jail

I have a feeling Judge Howell would send the marshals after them before they finished saying the "o" in "No."

[wellst0nev0ter]

77. Oh, then NOW it's okay to throw people in jail

We could've had it over and done with sooner. The threat of imprisonment is more effective than you think

[StarfishSaver]

81. If you don't understand the difference between the House trying (and probably not succeeding)

to lock someone up in the Capitol basement for an hour or so and a federal judge putting someone in federal jail and holding them there until they comply with its orders, there's not much I can say to elucidate it any further for you.

So I'll just wish you a good night and leave you to continue being frustrated that the people who know considerably more than you do about the law and process won't do what you think they should do.

[KPN]

96. Who's going to throw them in jail? The DOJ? THat's who US Marshalls fall under.

Some inconsistent positions being taken here it seems -- actually contradictory.

[StarfishSaver]

98. The marshals are part of DOJ but they report to the federal judges

If a federal judge orders a marshal to arrest someone, they are not going to disobey that order, even if the Attorney General tells them to, which itself would be an unlawful order.

And even if a marshal decided to "go rogue" and obey the AG's unlawful order, it wouldn't be long before the judge found a marshal - probably an army of them - who would be more than happy to follow the judge's lawful order to arrest and jail the original defier AND the marshal who disobeyed the judge AND the Attorney General.

Trust me. The federal judges are NOT to be trifled with and, when it comes to this, they have more power than the Attorney General. He'd be crazy to try them.

[mr_lebowski]

104. It's good some still have faith that there's actual limits to Trump's crazy ...

When you get down to the proverbial brass tacks ... Trump is CiC of the most powerful military in the world.

Nobody, not even federal judges, have more power than Trump, should he go full-on crazy and declare a national emergency, and call out the military to protect his cronies.

Just sayin'

[StarfishSaver]

105. Then I guess we're just all doomed

So what's the point of bothering? Let's just all surrender and beg for Trump's mercy before he gets mad and orders the military to kill us all.

[mr_lebowski]

106. Like I say, I'm glad there are those who still have faith in the limits to the crazy we might see ..

I didn't mean to imply others are obliged to share my paranoia

[egduj]

36. And don't blithely dismiss the stern looks...

I've no doubt those were equally as imperative.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

37. don't be too harsh on complainers

The noise level increased enough that even tv bobbleheads took note and the sleeping giant -- the general public -- awakened. The mockery was a bit much, but the cries for something to be done were noticed and had a good effect.

[StarfishSaver]

40. This isn't the result of "cries for something to be done"

They were already doing plenty while people were screaming at them to do something and snidely dismissing their careful and strategic efforts as nothing more than "sternly-worded letters." As is evident from her opinion, the steps they were taking then paved the way for the smackdown Judge Howell threw today.

[ecstatic]

42. +1000. nt

[Kurt V.]

38. Its a ruling, not an actual end. so blockbuster is certainly an overstatement.

also, the *strongly worded letter* complaint is hardly new.

[StarfishSaver]

41. If she'd ruled the other way, I'm sure you'd think "blockbuster" was an understatement

and you'd be crowing about nails in coffins, etc.

But for some reason, you seem a little touchy about the Democrats having a major victory today.

[Kurt V.]

43. no. Democrats are America's only salvation. also it's not a major victory which was my main point.

[empedocles]

61. It is a major foundation victory. There have been a number of major victories, starting with

Mueller's 'talking indictments', which are still important. Hopefully, there will be more major victories.

[Kurt V.]

62. i would submit you're confusing many minor victories with major ones.

there is rarely that one switch. but ill take it.

[Kurt V.]

47. frankly, the naivety of some ppl of the seriousness of what is happening here is crippling.

but i understand it. we don't have the language or the tools to properly address it.

[ecstatic]

44. I fully get the points you're making, but for me,

victory is trump being out of office, preferably in a prison cell.

So that's my goalpost.

I get that it's annoying to hear complaints and criticism, but I (and I'm sure many others) will continue to complain on DU and via letters to my congressman when it doesn't look like progress is being made towards that goal.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

51. Yes. Censorship and group think are bad. Hope that's not what

we are headed for here. Since 2004, on a horrible night post Kerry “defeat”, DU has been a place to freely discuss ideas back and forth.

IMHO, using a great man’s funeral just to try to prove you might have been right about something here is very sad.

[Cetacea]

52. Yes.

Enter circular firing squad. The period right after Kerry was "defeated" was one of this forum's finest moments,imo. I also think some of what we were doing then is why DU was hacked in 2016.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

58. That's interesting. I was just thinking about it because someone was talking

about communications. Back then we had impact because we had a list of everyone’s email (press and govt) and people would ask us to all send an email about X. Hundreds of emails in a box had an impact. Now, I guess it’s Twitter which has minimal impact. Funny we have come full circle and I actually think we may be back to email. Or actual letters. ( handwriiten mist effective). Bottom line, you are probably right.

[Cetacea]

46. Maybe one half of one percent of posts were critical of them

We'd better focus on staying united. The Barr investigation could potentially negate any progress made .

[betsuni]

50. K&R

[empedocles]

56. So reassuring and pleasant to read all the responses to this thread.

It does seem that some of the 'impatient' ones are noticing some of the increasing evidence compounding in the Speaker's [and Dems] favor, and moderating somewhat.

That will help as we all continue to go forward.

[Wounded Bear]

63. There's a lot to be said for writing shit down and recording it...

As you point out, in the long run, what matters is having evidence and corroboration.

[George II]

67. In order to build a case one can't skip any steps or take shortcuts.

[OliverQ]

76. I'm not going to get excited until the appeals process happens.

We could still get Judge Howell's decision overturned by the DC Appeals Court or Supreme Court.

[StarfishSaver]

83. I bet if the decision went against the Dems, you wouldn't wait for the appeals to feel discouraged

This process is incremental and not only did we win at this level, the depth and quality of the judge's opinion makes it more than likely it will upheld.

So, I'm excited.

But, of course, you're free to do you.

[OliverQ]

87. What is that supposed to mean? Of course I'd be discouraged sooner

if she ruled against Dems, but we've spent 3 years watching the majority of institutions protect Trump. It's hard to get too excited just because one step goes our way. Being discouraged is pretty normal in this nightmare we're going through.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

95. Perfect example...all you were doing

was expressing your opinion, and you get a personal jab. In the words of our immortal dictator, "very sad."

[pbmus]

100. Yea, hoop hoop hooray...mean letters worked

While Hundreds of Kurds murdered and hundreds of thousands displaced and our government in more disarray than ever...our justice department has been taken over by a tinfoil salesman...oh everything is wonderful and those letters were the best thing since sliced bread, OFFS

[StarfishSaver]

102. When all else fails, fall back on "So what? It doesn't matter anyway"

Has a familiar ring to it.

[pbmus]

103. Your entire posting has a very familiar ring to it...

And I never said what you just posted...Again you misrepresent everything I have posted...

You call yourself a lawyer...I wonder...

[cilla4progress]

79. You one smart prescient dude,

SS

[Gothmog]

90. In the real world strongly worded letters are effective

I love the ruling in this case

[KPN]

97. ...

Now that was productive.

[MineralMan]

99. Too many people are too quick to insist that things move faster.

They criticize the very people who are making those things move in the first place. People who know little about the process often seem to be very sure about how it all should be done and how soon. Fortunately, we have people who do understand the process and shepherd it along properly so it doesn't end prematurely.

Those who criticize without understanding do no good service to their own goals. Sometimes, it's much better to let those who are familiar with processes carry things out to ensure that the process works as designed.

Online "experts" are online, but are not experts, as a rule. Ask for their credentials before accepting their statements. that's my advice, and I include myself in the group that should have their credentials checked. Anything I say here is strictly my opinion. I try to base that opinion on factual information, but I'm not an expert on how our government or its systems operate.

[benld74]

107. I understood what was being done

I recalled how long Nixon took
Knew this was definitely be worse

Still more to go

[Piasladic]

108. Yeah, I was one

Still am. I don't see a lot happening. If anything, I feel more sick by the moment.