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This message was self-deleted by its author (elocs) on Tue Oct 22, 2019, 08:43 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.
blm
(113,052 posts)economy now to be a continuation of Obamas turnaround. By spring those sectors harmed by Trumps policies should become apparent.
AJT
(5,240 posts)little attention to anything going on outside of their own lives. Many Americans will vote their pocketbook or church.
CousinIT
(9,241 posts)Because it will ALL. BE. GONE. by 2021 if that sonofabitch gets back in.
Newest Reality
(12,712 posts)I would say that the impact may be all-inclusive.
Say goodbye to just about everything we hold dear if the pattern continues. What I mean is that if his behavior and the mindset around him continues unabated what will remain when it comes to freedom, democracy or anything that is not relative to an Oligarchical and Theocratic domination of the many by the few?
What will we chew with when all of our teeth get kicked out from this barrage?
Farmer-Rick
(10,163 posts)Too many signs things will be crashing before the election.
And many people never had a recovery and don't see any good in their economy. Many of those folks voted for the traitor because their economy sucked so much they wanted to shake things up. Yet Traitor Trump has done nothing to improve their economy.
Buzz cook
(2,471 posts)And one of the architects of that economy, Al Gore, was kicked out. It ain't just the economy.
I'd like to remind folks that this economy isn't good for everyone. Its mostly good for the wealthy and corporations. So the usual economic indicators don't tell the whole story.
The minimum wages is decades out of date. Worker compensation is stagnant.
Health care and housing are taking up an increasing portion of working families incomes.
If democrats can point these things out they have a winning narrative.
As usual the main stumbling block for democrats in any election is the media. This time around there is no Clinton for them to unite against. So the media will only be slightly pro Trump instead of totally in the bag for him.
Of course we still have to work hard to make the margin too large for the republicans to steal the election. But we shouldn't worry about things that aren't as important as they once were.
Celerity
(43,341 posts)Erm, dot com bubble burst/NASDAQ crash?
The burst of the stock market bubble occurred in the form of the NASDAQ crash in March 2000. Growth in gross domestic product slowed considerably in the third quarter of 2000 to the lowest rate since a contraction in the first quarter of 1992.
Buzz cook
(2,471 posts)Notice the bar at 2000 is only slightly lower than 1999. The economy didn't go into recession till 2001, it was still growing in 2000.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/188165/annual-gdp-growth-of-the-united-states-since-1990/
The Dow dropped 6.1 in 2000 but compared to the previous years it wasn't an indication of a fundamentally failing economy.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/the-state-of-americas-middle-class-in-eight-charts/
Middle class incomes were still raising in 2000. Chart #1
2000 was also the year that the fewest people had to depend on part time jobs. Chart #4
Families were saving at their greatest rate. Chart # 7Family net worth was still growing. Chart # 8.
If you worked for a living, the Clinton years were great. They were even better if your money worked for you.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)first sentence is wrong.
caraher
(6,278 posts)GOTV
That is all...
must sit out this next election... .no one. We are fighting for the soul of our country, isn't that what Chairman Cummings said. Let's not let him down.
Thekaspervote
(32,762 posts)These are unusual times. IMHO models dont really tell the story.
For Some more hopeful but realistic thoughts on the 2020 election seemthe link below
https://cnu.edu/wasoncenter/2019/07/01-2020-election-forecast/
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Indeed, the only massive restructuring I might have to make to this forecast involves a significant upheaval like the entrance of a well-funded Independent candidate such as Howard Schultz into the general election....Other potential significant disruptions might be a ground war with Iran, an economic recession, or a terrorist attack on the scale of 9/11. Otherwise, the country's hyperpartisan and polarized environment has largely set the conditions of the 2020 election in stone....on Election Day Donald Trump will earn the vote of somewhere around 90% of self-identified Republicans. And as 2018 demonstrated, Republicans will increase their turnout rate over 2016. This, combined with a floor for Trump among Independents of around 38% (because of right-leaning Independents) and an infusion of cash that will dwarf his 2016 efforts, Trump has a floor that is at least theoretically competitive for reelection and will force Democrats to compete hard to win the presidency. The polarized era doesnt produce Reagan Era Electoral College landslide maps.
My biggest concern is that because desperate people take desperate action, we are likely to see more voter suppression efforts than ever before...and even greater foreign influence than we saw in 2016. I'm convinced that the reason Trump is increasingly brazen in his corruption is to normalize it as we head into next year's election. And, as the author suggested, the days of a candidate walking away with 400+ electoral votes are long gone. 2008 was a landslide by today's standards, which means we can't get too comfortable.
On the other hand, we won't be nominating a polarizing figure who has been the target of vicious attacks for a quarter of a century. And Trump is no longer new or as much of an unknown quantity, so there will be fewer casual "I'll give him a shot/he won't win anyway/both candidates suck" voters. Someone with a "strongly approve" number in the high 20s and a "strongly disapprove" number that's almost twice as high shouldn't have much of a chance at re-election, even with the electoral college in place and even with a fairly steady economy. Again, though, we're dealing with the Republican Mafia.
I wouldn't say "almost everyone," as myself and many others have been railing against that bogus narrative for nearly 3 years. But it's true, sadly, that far, far too many people (in the media and all across the political spectrum) have been (and still are) pushing the demonstrably false "economic anxiety/Clinton focused too much on identity politics" narrative. Even after all of the articles that make clear how false that story is, such as this one and this one.
And it wasn't Obama-Trump voters that were Clinton's downfall either (regarding Obama-Trump voters, everyone should read what Jamelle Bouie wrote). The unfortunate reality is that hundreds of thousands of Obama voters, across key states, simply didn't vote in 2016. Again, Hillary Hate was a major factor.
Next, many people continue to misunderstand who so-called "independents" are. Very few are actually swing voters. The vast majority are highly partisan (most only require the slightest nudge in order to vote for a particular candidate). In fact, studies have shown that the average "independent" of today is more strongly aligned with a particular party than the average party-affiliated voter was in the 1970s. The other thing to understand about independents is that they are less reliable voters, less engaged.
The failure to understand that truth about independents and a misunderstanding of what happened in 2016 has led some to this notion that only a moderate old white male can defeat Trump. Also, people get seduced by the hypothetical matchup polls, but they're historically inaccurate at this stage in the game--just ask President Dukakis. We shouldn't be using those as any sort of a guide in terms of picking our nominee.
The bottom line is that our focus must be on boosting turnout of POC, youth and white suburban women. And not on appealing to a limited subset of voters who are widely dispersed across all 50 states, at the risk of not firing up the base. Get out the base, get out the base, get out the base. And be prepared to fight voter suppression efforts. That's what will win us the election. If we get turnout even close to 2008 levels, it'll take epic corruption to prevent our nominee from winning in a landslide.
pbmus
(12,422 posts)Last edited Sat Oct 19, 2019, 03:12 AM - Edit history (1)
LeftInTX
(25,303 posts)He's an incumbent and the economy is doing well. Unemployment is at a 50 year low.
We find him repugnant, but many independents don't see him as repugnant. (They may not "like" him, but they don't share our visceral reaction of him) Visceral reaction is what many, many people vote on. Lots of people watched the Apprentice and weren't particularly bothered by him.
Hoping on "demographics" or thinking, "we think he's gross, so he'll never be reelected", "he's fat", "tarriffs are killing us" (not they aren't), "Trump's a womanizer" etc. We may have a bad future economy, but currently we do not have a bad economy. We don't have a national security crisis at the present time. Most people are indifferent about a wall, children in cages etc etc. The one thing that he has going against him is this thing with Turkey. We also need to hammering the point about foreign meddling, but it is a complex point to get across. A Democrat not only needs Democratic talking points, but also needs to focus on foreign relations and national security. At this time, foreign relations and national security seems to be the weakest link with Trump.
It is interesting that both Bernie and Trump were on the isolationist aisle. Now we are realizing the real time effects of isolationism. We've already been down the road with fiscal conservatism. We know it's a disaster, but people still vote for it. However this is the first time, we've had a bull in the china shop for president when it comes to foreign policy.
Joinfortmill
(14,417 posts)It's not over until the last vote is counted. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
Liberal In Texas
(13,548 posts)Tusli can sink us.
12 candidates on the stage is way too confusing.
Telling people their taxes are going to go up is a losing argument. (Does not matter that the premiums on insurance will disappear...it's the perception.)
Cross-check.
Russian interference.
Voter ID laws
Electronic voting. (This is the largest unknown...the machines are easily hackable and the Russians are quite capable of doing it. They did it in 2016.)
We will be fighting lies and the constant flow of propaganda that the average joe and jane listen to/watch on a daily basis on the media they consume.
As Mark Twain allegedly said, "A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes." It is so true.
abqtommy
(14,118 posts)tman
(983 posts)oasis
(49,381 posts)Moody convieniently left out of the equation.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)Schiff was speaking in Chicago earlier this month about the use of ai in the election campaign 2020
It can be used to make clips of a person looking as though they were saying something in the past that they never did. Very sophisticated
GOP wont think twice about using any nasty tricks they can. A post truth run accepted
From a spring hearing where he spoke on the subject
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/house-holds-hearing-on-deepfakes-and-artificial-intelligence-amid-national-security-concerns-live-stream/#
In his opening remarks, Committee chair Rep. Adam Schiff said the spread of manipulated videos presents a "nightmarish" scenario for the 2020 presidential elections -- leaving lawmakers, members of the news media and public "struggling to discern what is real and what is fake."
Schiff urged that "now is the time for social media companies to put in place policies to protect users from misinformation, not in 2021 after viral deepfakes have polluted the 2020 elections. By then, it will be too late."
NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)If the only thing that drove voters to the polls was how they viewed the economy, this analysis would make some sense some, but not very much. In fact, hardly any.
People vote for a candidate for any number of reasons: party loyalty, common political ideals, their stand on issues like the environment, pro-choice/anti-choice, the list is endless, as are the combinations and permutations.
In addition, there are the never-will voters: Ill never vote for a woman, Ill never vote for a Jew, Ill never vote for a homosexual, Ill never vote for anyone over seventy.
Ones view of the economy as a whole is also based on a myriad of personal criteria, i.e. low unemployment is meaningless to the guy who has to work two jobs to pay his bills, or the woman who just lost her job because the plant she worked at for twenty years just shut down. They dont vote based on a healthy stock market; they vote based on how far their paycheque lasts from one payday to the next.
The idea that any voter just blindly casts his/her ballot based on any one thing is ludicrous, and basing a model on just one thing is laughable.
And then theres the big, lard-assed, orange elephant in the middle of the room something this model doesnt seem to be concerned with at all. Sure, Trump is a liar, a thief, a racist, and a traitor who has sold out the country for personal gain but the economy looks good, so Im voting for him anyway said no voter ever except for his base, who dont have the numbers to re-elect him.
To suggest that Trump, as an incumbent with a good economy, has the advantage is to believe that voters will be walking into the voting booth without any regard whatsoever to his disastrous policies, his distancing of our allies, his lies, his lack of personal morality, his arrogance, his stupidity, and the growing evidence of his corruption is beyond the realm of credulity.
What will really have an impact on voters in 2020 is anger. People who are satisfied with a sitting president are less motivated to vote than people who are pissed-off with that presidents actions, words, and behaviour and want to vote him out of office. Thats not scientific theory thats just human nature.
Anyone who believes that an alleged good economy will drive people to the polls to vote on that basis alone is selling fake science. And anyone who believes that fake science hasnt bothered to look at the current polls, where Trump is trounced by any number of potential Democratic candidates.
If you believe that those polls are going to suddenly turn around in Trumps favour, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might want to consider buying.
pbmus
(12,422 posts)CatMor
(6,212 posts)FakeNoose
(32,634 posts)You're so right, the economy is a big thing but it's far from the only thing.
As long as our Dem nominee has appeal to the independents and cross-over voters I think we have a very good chance to beat Chump next year. If we foolishly select someone that only appeals to liberals/progressives, then it will be much more difficult.
Response to elocs (Original post)
elocs This message was self-deleted by its author.
NickB79
(19,236 posts)Well, I'm sure Moody's would see something like that coming...... .
http://money.com/money/5479035/experts-recession-2020/
Whoops!
spanone
(135,830 posts)Proud Liberal Dem
(24,412 posts)If Trump were like any other Republican President, they *may* have a point. But I'm straining my brain to figure out how, after not even 4 years of him (yet), there's people out there sans his "base" whom are going to look at Trump and say, "Hey, I want FOUR MORE YEARS!!!"
I just can't see it. I know that Republicans and esp. Trump will smear whoever the Democratic candidate is very hard and it will be an ugly campaign but, seriously, how many people are there whom aren't seriously tired of him by now?
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)1) "all politicians are corrupt," 2) "he's put more money in my pocket and I'll be able to pay off XX's college loans faster," and 3) "my 401(K)."
People don't like to hear it, but it's the economy. Always. He doesn't like the racism, the kids in cages, the pussy-grabbing, etc. but money rules. ALWAYS.
Mister Ed
(5,930 posts)The chart for that same 401(k) surely showed the same robust upward growth throughout the Obama years that has now continued under Trump. Unless the health of his 401(k) in those years made him rabidly pro-Obama, he's lying to you (and himself) now.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)And the perception of millions of others. Did Obama and Democrats in general drill into voters' heads how well things were going? No. Did we promote the ACA like it should have been promoted? No. It doesn't seem to be our style. But people want to hear something - anything - and Drumpf is a master at it. That's the danger, especially since Republicans are closing in on SS and Medicare.
Mister Ed
(5,930 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)especially since I hope to retire within 7 years 10 months XX days...
IcyPeas
(21,866 posts)no other candidate gets anywhere near the media attention (i.e. publicity) trump does. democrats don't hold rallies where they get everyone worked up into a tizzy like trump does. he is a showman. he is a celebrity. those people are all going to vote.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)brush
(53,776 posts)favors an incumbent president but a president having been impeached will undoubtedly have an effect on the election.
If he's impeached and convicted in the Senate he'll be gone, good economy or not.
EarlG
(21,947 posts)Maybe not...
(Reuters) - Low gas prices and President Barack Obamas high approval ratings are key factors that favor Democrat Hillary Clinton winning the White House in next weeks election, according to a model from Moodys Analytics that has accurately predicted the last nine U.S. presidential contests.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-research-moody-s-idUSKBN12W56J
I saw another DUer recently describe Trump as a black swan event, which seems about right.
forthemiddle
(1,379 posts)After all, Clinton won the popular vote, just not the Presidency.
EarlG
(21,947 posts)Clinton is forecast to pick up 332 Electoral College votes against 206 for Republican Donald Trump, Moodys Analytics predicted on Tuesday in the final update of its model before Election Day on Nov. 8.
Their model was pretty far off.
forthemiddle
(1,379 posts)I usually do before I respond, but today I was in a hurry and only glanced.
That will teach me!
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)That would suggest trouble for Trump given that he must win PA, MI and WI again. 2018's election and his approval rating suggest it'll take a lot of election fraud to get him over the hump.
Absent voter suppression and foreign interference and Comey in 2016 and 332-206 would have been about right.
Response to EarlG (Reply #31)
elocs This message was self-deleted by its author.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)How did that turn out?
Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #44)
elocs This message was self-deleted by its author.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)No president in the history of polling who had less than a 50% approval rating on election day has ever been re-elected.
Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #49)
elocs This message was self-deleted by its author.
Takket
(21,563 posts)This would be like me saying "well 90% of the country supports background checks for firearms, and that is a liberal position, so i predict 90% of the vote going to Democrats."
2018 midterm exit polls here:
https://www.cnn.com/election/2018/exit-polls
Show only 22% of persons believed the economy was the most important issue. and a huge segment of that number was rethugs (people who won't be voting Democrat regardless). and this was a midterm... drumpf was not even on the ballot (though his shadow was certainly hanging over the election). A lot more people are going to show up in 2020 to vote against him. Currently polling shows he is double digits underwater in many battleground states.
and the state of the economy remains to be seen 1 year from now. The signs are already there that a recession is coming.
Response to Takket (Reply #48)
elocs This message was self-deleted by its author.
Takket
(21,563 posts)you can't just ignore the effect drumpf has had on the country. any incumbent president should be polling in the 60%+ range with the economy the way it is right now.........
that's specifically why i called out the midterms. Democrats had a nearly unprecedented midterms for themselves.... to not factor that into your calculation means your calculation is flawed.
Response to Takket (Reply #59)
elocs This message was self-deleted by its author.
MFM008
(19,808 posts)Like that wont be happening.
I predict the biggest turnout in the history
Of the country.
dewsgirl
(14,961 posts)Response to MFM008 (Reply #51)
elocs This message was self-deleted by its author.
Kablooie
(18,632 posts)Surviving the impeachment means he is given a green light to run the country completely for his own benefit without fear of future consequences because there will not be another opportunity for impeachment before the election.
Besides the factors the article brings up, he will have a year to rig the elections in every way he can with no one to stop him.
It will impossible to overcome an unfettered crime syndicate that controls the Presidency, Justice Department, Senate and Supreme Court with impeachment taken off the table.
Let's hope that the House comes up with some horrific evidence that will hit the public in the gut and get them on our side or else the America we have known will be gone, probably forever.
lettucebe
(2,336 posts)He has done zero to court new voters and he has hemorrhaged those he had to start. Day after day he does or says something to lose a few more. How on earth can this be a winning strategy? He cannot possibly have enough voters so cheating is his only hope.
The economy will not cause anyone with an ounce of intelligence to suddenly decide, "Hey, this Trump guy isn't all bad, right?" I don't see that happening. He did win supporters because of his celebrity; these are the supports who don't read or watch news, or what they do see is false. There are simply not enough of those voters. Period.
Show me the math and I'll consider changing my position
evertonfc
(1,713 posts)an, no shit a strong economy helps the incumbent. Button expecting a surge. A big one. But, sure, it will be tough.
orangecrush
(19,546 posts)It becomes a moot point.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)Is that taken into account?