14-year-old shot during burglary attempt. The 5 other teens with him were charged with murder.

[Floyd R. Turbo]

Five Chicago teens are being charged with murder after a 14-year-old who was with them during an attempted burglary was shot by the homeowner, authorities said Tuesday.

The group traveled in a stolen Lexus to an Illinois home where they were confronted by the 75-year-old homeowner, according to the Lake County Illinois Sheriff's Office. The man went out to investigate and told authorities he believed someone was trying to steal his car, a 2011 Audi.

"At least one of the male subjects advanced toward him with an unknown object in his hand," officials said in a release. "The homeowner feared for his life and discharged a firearm."

At least one of the rounds from the small caliber revolver struck the 14-year-old, and a knife was later found at the scene of the shooting. The homeowner called 911 to report the attempted burglary and shots fired, but by the time police arrived all of the suspects had fled.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/14/5-teens-charged-murder-14-year-old-shot-by-homeowner-during-burglary-attempt/2013790001/

[jberryhill]

1. If someone dies during the course of your felony, that happens

[elleng]

26. Right,

felony murder rule is a rule that allows a defendant to be charged with first-degree murder for a killing that occurs during a dangerous felony, even if the defendant is not the killer.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. This situation is multitextured.

Not addressed: Does Illinois have The Castle Doctrine where a homeowner is legally permitted to use deadly force to protect his/her home?

[forthemiddle]

3. I'm sure it will be a self defense claim and not the Castle Doctrine

According to the story, he shot only after one of the teens came towards him, and a knife was found at the scene. That's self defense, and not just protecting his home.

This is a correct judgment on the prosecutors side. He would not be dead, if he and the other teens were not attempting to commit the crime.

[Lochloosa]

4. It's more of a self defense question. And yes they do have a Castle Doctrine.

http://rnh-law.com/castle-doctrine-and-illinois-law/

[COLGATE4]

13. From what's being reported here

it appears that the homeowner was protecting himself, not his home. Right of self-defense.

[StarfishSaver]

5. Felony murder rule

In short, if you commit a felony, you're responsible for what happens during the commission of that felony. If somebody dies, it's on you.

that doesn't mean the person who actually pulled the trigger can't also be charged.

[Amishman]

7. Yup, participate in a felony and you are responsible for all results

One of the many reasons not to commit crime

[sarisataka]

8. Are you suggesting

The homeowner in this case be charged with murder?

[StarfishSaver]

9. No

I said that the felony murder rule doesn't mean that the person who actually committed the murder can't also be charged.

[madville]

6. That's the way it works

Many people have been convicted of their accomplice's murder during a felony.

Sounds like a justified self defense scenario from the reports. The elderly gentleman is lucky he had the ability to defend himself.

[Ms. Toad]

37. Not only that - but there are times when the triggerman gets a sentence of a few years

and the non-shooting participant is executed for the crime.

[maxsolomon]

10. I dislike everything about this story.

Condolences to the 14 year old's family. They have to be going through a tough time.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. That's such a garbage law.

[USALiberal]

14. No it is not! Nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

15. It's an astonishing acceleration of charges. A murder charge without intent can be construed

as unconstitutionally cruel and unusual, and tends to affect teenagers more than other groups. It traps people who were committing crimes, but not pulling the trigger (obviously, in this situation), into lifelong sentences. It doesn't deter crime and reinforces the punitive role of the incarceration industry. If people want to charge and punish a teenager, what's wrong with an armed robbery charge? Why accelerate it? As I say, garbage.

[MicaelS]

19. It is obviously a way to convict a killer.

Person A pulls the trigger, B & C get charged too. The DA can plead it down to a lesser crime as long as B & C testify against A.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

20. How does that apply to this case?

[MicaelS]

21. I am talking in general.

Obviously it does not apply here.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

24. What do you think about it being applied in this case?

[MicaelS]

28. I think it is completely misguided.

I have absolutely do not like the part of these laws that when perp A gets killed during the commission of a crime (no matter how he dies), then perps B&C get charged with murder. Especially if a cop or citizen kills A. A's death is not murder, it is justifiable homicide.

As far as I am concerned, this specific application of the statute is completely misguided and morally indefensible.

[jberryhill]

34. Imagine falsifying your tax return while your spouse has a heart attack

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

25. Similar laws in several states have been around for awhile

I expect that numerous defense attorneys have argued against them with probably mixed results but the laws are still around.

The essence of these events is:
-Five teens in a stolen car try stealing another car.
-One of them is shot (and killed) by the 75 year old owner as he approached the senior citizen who feared for life and safety.
-The remaining 4 lead police on a chase at over 120 MPH.
-Their stolen car runs out gas and they are all arrested.
-The 4 teens surviving teens, ages 16-18, are charged with murder.

They got the young 14 year old killed while committing at lease a few felonies. Maybe they'll be tried for something a bit less but murder sounds good to me.

BTW, the Bill of Rights mentions cruel and unusual punishment.
Cruel and unusual charges are mentioned no where.

[MicaelS]

32. I am a believer in strong punishment for violent felons, but......

As far as I am concerned, this specific application of the felony murder statute is completely misguided and morally indefensible.

I do not like the part of these laws that when perp A gets killed during the commission of a crime (no matter how he dies), then perps B&C get charged with murder.

If a cop or citizen kills A, then A's death is not murder, it is justifiable homicide. Murder is unlawful killing with malice aforethought.

I have never understood why this has not gone to SCOTUS. Has anyone not realized the path that is being trod when stating that a cop or citizen is involved in a murder?

[Ms. Toad]

40. It has gone to SCOTUS - numerous times.

As one example: Enmund v. Florida, 102 S. Ct. 3368 (1982) (nontriggerman may convicted of murder - but not executed - not be executed absent a finding of an intent to kill).

Murder also varies by state - "malice aforethought" is the standard in some states - for example, but not in all.

In Ohio, for example, murder is purposely causing the death of another. BUT the commision of a felonycan substitute for the "purposely causing." The death merely needs to be the proximate result of committing any of an enumerated list of felonies.

Ohio does not even use malice aforethought for aggravated murder (the death-eligible kind).

To committ aggravated murder in Ohio, you have to purposely cause the death of another prior calculation and design (a calculated decision to and a specific scheme to carry it out). But - just like simple murder, there is a felony substitute. If you purposely cause the death of another during the commission of a crime, prior calculation and design is not required.

In this scenario, the co-felons could be convicted of simple felony murder (which does not require them to individually purposely cause the 14 year old's death). They could not be convicted of aggravated felony murder unless they were the triggerman.

It stinks - but the Supreme Court has ruled on it and, until the composition of the court changes - it is not likely to rule differently.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

44. Maybe I'm wrong but i think this has gone to SCOTUS n/t

[WhiskeyGrinder]

35. Yep, and they're all garbage laws.

Getting someone killed is not necessarily murder. Making up a charge to make it murder increases the number of people we incarcerate and punishes people with penalties that now apply to them even if they didn't pull the trigger. To me, that's cruel and unusual. And because these laws tend to fall disproportionately on teens, we then get more kids in the adult incarceration system. There's no evidence it deters crime -- it's simply to punish more.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

43. Let's talk about this law and the law in general

IMHO, if you set out with the intention of committing a felony and assault someone or threaten violence when confronted either by a victim or by police, I see you as a violent felon.

Does murder require premeditation?

First degree:
Willfulness;
Deliberation; and
Premeditation.

Second degree:
Are intentional but lack premeditation.
Result from acts intended to only cause serious bodily harm.
Result from acts that demonstrate extreme indifference to human life.

Some states also classify killings that occur during the commission of another felony as second-degree murders, although other states characterize these types of killings as murders in the first degree. It's also important to note that an individual can be found guilty of felony murder even if they didn't personally kill anyone.

The court system has standards for how to decide when a minor can be charged as an adult. If you see those as the problem, I confess I have no idea how begin changing the standards.

I have no use for the law as a deterrent to crime. To be as fair as possible to the people of a community and the accused defendant, the most important use of the law is to be an objective standard in determining whether or not to affix a guilty verdict. Laws only work as deterrents and controls for those with a manifested degree of self-control.

[GulfCoast66]

33. When Armed Robbery result in a death, it is no longer armed robbery

But murder. Same had the young man stabbed the old guy to death. His accomplices would be charged in the death.

Not saying I would go out with a gun. I have a shotgun for defense of my wife and I. Not our home or cars. A burglar would actually have to enter my bedroom to have me resort to killing someone. But that is my decision. Even then, if that were to happen and there were other burglars in the house they would be charged with the death.

It was actually a policeman at a neighborhood watch meeting who advised me of what people who choose to be armed should do in case of a break in...close and lock your bedroom door, call 911 and yell as loud as you can ‘the police are coming and I am armed. Come in here and you will get shot’. He told the us that the homeowners he knew who had killed someone even in legitimate self defense often suffered sever psychological problems after the fact.

But the law being discussed is not new and goes back to English common law.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

36. Murder implies premeditation, right? If armed robbery that results in death is a felony murder, why

not charge all armed robbery suspects with attempted murder?

It's a garbage law. It punishes people for things they did not do.

[cwydro]

12. Good.

Don’t commit crimes.

[killaphill]

16. A very sad story

This young man was only 14. Was it really worth shooting him over a car? The homeowner should have retired to his house, locked the door and called the police. If he had, perhaps his car would have been taken, but one child would still be alive and 5 others wouldn't be facing a murder rap.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. It's obviously the victim's fault

[killaphill]

29. I didn't say it was his fault

But from the news reports they were trying to break into his car, not his house. He could have stayed inside and called the police instead of confronting them with a gun.

I just don’t think a gun is the answer to every situation.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

42. A gun is almost never the answer

I didn't read that the Audi owner went out to stop the theft. I only read that he went out. I inferred that he was checking to see what was happening.

In my yard a few kids on the far side of my truck could be trying to corral a renegade family pet or they could be trying to steal the truck. I don't want to call the cops on some neighbors and cause a scene for nothing. Maybe this guy felt the same way.

But:

"The homeowner called 911 to report the attempted burglary and shots fired, but by the time police arrived all of the suspects had fled."

I used to work in a neighboring town and there are roads where the next house is maybe a quarter mile down the road and little subdivisions where houses are 50 - 60 feet apart. I don't know which in this case and apparently the police response time was not quick enough.

[Mike_DuBois]

18. Wow

We don't perceive the situation the same at all.

[sarisataka]

22. A very sad story

This young man was only 14. Was it really worth threatening an elderly man with death over a car? The teen should have retired to his house, locked the door and and reconsidered the path he had set for himself. If he had, one child would still be alive and 5 others wouldn't be facing a murder rap.

[Codeine]

38. Oh good lord. nt

[Beaverhausen]

23. does someone have to prove they were trying to steal his car?

since this law applies when one is committing a felony, who decides a felony was being committed? Were they in his car driving away?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

27. I'm not sure but trying to evade police by driving at 120 MPH...

...probably also rises to being a felony.

[Eugene]

30. Facts like these are for the prosecutor to prove and a jury to determine at trial.

Did they participate in a felonious act? Did that act get somebody killed? That's often enough, but there have been cases where the charge didn't stick.

[Ms. Toad]

41. That's an element of felony murder

that has to be proven by the state.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

31. Felony murder.

In most states, if somebody gets killed in connection with your commission of a felony, you'll be charged with murder even if you didn't actually do or intend the killing. https://codes.findlaw.com/il/chapter-720-criminal-offenses/il-st-sect-720-5-9-1.html

[Codeine]

39. They were in a stolen car

evading police at 120mph.