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Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:48 PM

Am I the only one who thinks that sometimes things are just as they appear?

Epstein was suicidal. He had tried before. He couldn't stand life in prison so he took the easy way out.
He was a tricky bastard. He probably acted all normal and calm so he could be taken off suicide watch.
He planned it.

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Reply Am I the only one who thinks that sometimes things are just as they appear? (Original post)
OKNancy Aug 2019 OP
Codeine Aug 2019 #1
elleng Aug 2019 #3
Yonnie3 Aug 2019 #6
Shaddox Aug 2019 #9
Codeine Aug 2019 #12
SharonAnn Aug 2019 #13
USALiberal Aug 2019 #72
brush Aug 2019 #96
Ligyron Aug 2019 #112
jberryhill Aug 2019 #2
emmaverybo Aug 2019 #4
rzemanfl Aug 2019 #7
Lochloosa Aug 2019 #16
ChubbyStar Aug 2019 #23
Codeine Aug 2019 #27
mr_lebowski Aug 2019 #36
Codeine Aug 2019 #38
mr_lebowski Aug 2019 #44
emmaverybo Aug 2019 #43
mr_lebowski Aug 2019 #45
emmaverybo Aug 2019 #46
mr_lebowski Aug 2019 #50
emmaverybo Aug 2019 #57
mr_lebowski Aug 2019 #64
cwydro Aug 2019 #65
emmaverybo Aug 2019 #69
cwydro Aug 2019 #49
mr_lebowski Aug 2019 #51
cwydro Aug 2019 #53
zackymilly Aug 2019 #110
sheshe2 Aug 2019 #59
CatMor Aug 2019 #5
FiveGoodMen Aug 2019 #81
Tipperary Aug 2019 #8
BootinUp Aug 2019 #10
Eliot Rosewater Aug 2019 #11
Cousin Dupree Aug 2019 #20
Eliot Rosewater Aug 2019 #32
USALiberal Aug 2019 #74
Pacifist Patriot Aug 2019 #93
Mike 03 Aug 2019 #14
BannonsLiver Aug 2019 #30
TwilightZone Aug 2019 #34
BannonsLiver Aug 2019 #55
Mike 03 Aug 2019 #37
StarfishSaver Aug 2019 #76
PandoraAwakened Aug 2019 #99
Eliot Rosewater Aug 2019 #109
brush Aug 2019 #114
Eliot Rosewater Aug 2019 #115
brush Aug 2019 #117
kurtcagle Aug 2019 #85
Pacifist Patriot Aug 2019 #90
harumph Aug 2019 #15
Mike 03 Aug 2019 #19
polichick Aug 2019 #17
stopbush Aug 2019 #18
GeorgeGist Aug 2019 #21
gristy Aug 2019 #22
hlthe2b Aug 2019 #24
uponit7771 Aug 2019 #42
Mike 03 Aug 2019 #25
smirkymonkey Aug 2019 #63
barbtries Aug 2019 #26
dlk Aug 2019 #28
Igel Aug 2019 #39
jberryhill Aug 2019 #77
dlk Aug 2019 #79
uponit7771 Aug 2019 #41
USALiberal Aug 2019 #89
torius Aug 2019 #29
lunasun Aug 2019 #52
WheelWalker Aug 2019 #31
riversedge Aug 2019 #33
randr Aug 2019 #35
uponit7771 Aug 2019 #40
AncientGeezer Aug 2019 #48
uponit7771 Aug 2019 #54
AncientGeezer Aug 2019 #58
uponit7771 Aug 2019 #60
AncientGeezer Aug 2019 #47
GoCubsGo Aug 2019 #56
BannonsLiver Aug 2019 #61
IADEMO2004 Aug 2019 #62
AJT Aug 2019 #66
PSPS Aug 2019 #67
jberryhill Aug 2019 #78
PSPS Aug 2019 #80
PandoraAwakened Aug 2019 #97
emmaverybo Aug 2019 #107
PandoraAwakened Aug 2019 #118
emmaverybo Aug 2019 #119
PandoraAwakened Aug 2019 #120
emmaverybo Aug 2019 #121
PandoraAwakened Aug 2019 #123
emmaverybo Aug 2019 #124
shraby Aug 2019 #68
Sunsky Aug 2019 #70
USALiberal Aug 2019 #71
BadgerMom Aug 2019 #102
StarfishSaver Aug 2019 #73
NightWatcher Aug 2019 #75
ColesCountyDem Aug 2019 #82
bucolic_frolic Aug 2019 #83
Pathwalker Aug 2019 #84
underpants Aug 2019 #86
warmfeet Aug 2019 #87
Pacifist Patriot Aug 2019 #88
Boomer Aug 2019 #95
Hortensis Aug 2019 #91
StarfishSaver Aug 2019 #101
Hortensis Aug 2019 #108
TomSlick Aug 2019 #92
lillypaddle Aug 2019 #94
JonLP24 Aug 2019 #98
Crunchy Frog Aug 2019 #100
PoindexterOglethorpe Aug 2019 #103
PandoraAwakened Aug 2019 #104
meadowlander Aug 2019 #105
nolabear Aug 2019 #106
not_the_one Aug 2019 #111
BeckyDem Aug 2019 #113
Joe941 Aug 2019 #116
LanternWaste Aug 2019 #122

Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:49 PM

1. Occam's Razor.

A useful tool too often ignored in these parts.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:49 PM

3. Right

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Response to Codeine (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:52 PM

6. What? There was a razor!!!!!11!

I am joking of course.

It indeed useful and often ignored.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:55 PM

9. Damn you and your logic - sounds like we might have a college boy over here.

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Response to Shaddox (Reply #9)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:59 PM

12. I wish!

This pile of paystubs indicates a distinct lack of secondary education.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:00 PM

13. Freud: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

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Response to Codeine (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:37 PM

72. +1000! The DU is crazy at times! nt

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Response to Codeine (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 08:10 PM

96. IMO this seems to be a reverse Occam's razor. It's too convenient...

too so many rich and powerful people that this guy who had all kinds of damaging info in his head and endless money to hire attorney's to cut a deal, would just suddenly kill himself–without any assistance.

Please! Many are not buying that tale.

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Response to brush (Reply #96)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 01:36 PM

112. His suicide does seem a trifle premature.

But it sure is convenient timing for the orange rapist and the rich and powerful.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:49 PM

2. What an absurd and bizarre theory!

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:50 PM

4. Not the only one...nt

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #4)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:52 PM

7. I bet I am not the only one washing socks today. n/t

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Response to rzemanfl (Reply #7)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:03 PM

16. I'm not. But my wife is.















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Response to rzemanfl (Reply #7)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:09 PM

23. I have done two loads of socks just today!

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Response to rzemanfl (Reply #7)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:13 PM

27. Can someone explain the "washing socks" reference

to me? I’ve always been confused by that one.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #27)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:30 PM

36. I believe it just refers to finding some mundane thing to do to avoid the news for whatever reason

Suggesting someone is not really interested in the silliness they're sure to witness if they 'pay attention'.

That's what I've always assumed.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #36)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:31 PM

38. Ohhhhhhh.

I am a dim bulb.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #38)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:36 PM

44. Not my experience with you my friend (nt)

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #36)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:35 PM

43. I got that in response to my mentioning how much I miss my parents since they are both gone.

Not appreciated.

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #43)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:37 PM

45. For reals? That sucks! ((hug)) nt

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #45)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:38 PM

46. Oh my gosh. Thanks for that hug!

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #46)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:42 PM

50. ((((hug)))) ((((hug)))) ((((hug)))) ((((hug)))) ((((hug)))) ((((hug))))

I got's bunches for you!






Haven't lost a parent yet (I have 4) but I damn sure don't look forward to losing any of them. I'm sure it's going to be a huge bummer for a really long time.

Sorry someone was so insensitive

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #50)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:54 PM

57. You make it better,

May your parents all live a long and healthy life. Blessings be upon you, mr_Lewbowski.

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #57)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:06 PM

64. Glad to be of service. May all your remaining loved ones have the same good fortune :) (nt)

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #43)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:09 PM

65. I miss my parents too. Very much.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #65)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:35 PM

69. Oh, so sorry. I saw both my parents live with that. It helps somehow to know that others do know

what this heartbreak is and that they manage. I like to believe we will see them again, in one way or another. Thank you for responding.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #36)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:41 PM

49. I think it means something else.

But that’s just me.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #49)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:43 PM

51. Like I said ... that's what I assumed, not what I KNOW :)

If you want to enlighten us, please share ... I think that's what Codeine was hoping for ...

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #51)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:45 PM

53. I'll pm you. I don't want to cast aspersions lol.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #53)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 01:13 PM

110. Could also mean cleaning up after a hookup. Is that what you didn't want to cast asparagus about?nt

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Response to Codeine (Reply #27)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:54 PM

59. Rinse. Recycle. Reuse. Repeat.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:50 PM

5. You're not the only one

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Response to CatMor (Reply #5)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:14 PM

81. Yup.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:54 PM

8. I agree.

Until there’s other evidence, that seems the most likely.

MCC still has a lot to answer for however.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:55 PM

10. You can't fool me, lol.



:Sarcasm:

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 03:59 PM

11. murdered, period

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #11)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:06 PM

20. Ooh be careful, Eliot. You're going to make some people clutch their pearls and throw themselves

onto their fainting couches.

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Response to Cousin Dupree (Reply #20)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:19 PM

32. We NEVER seem to learn, do we

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #11)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:38 PM

74. Hope your NEVER on a real jury! nt

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #11)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:48 PM

93. Not likely

It is entirely plausible he took his own life. What is improbable is the utter break down in suicide watch protocols that enabled him to do it. That is what needs explaining.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:00 PM

14. I'm with you

One thing I haven't seen in the hundreds of posts I've read today on DU is one person giving us one reason why he WOULDN'T kill himself. Look at how he controlled every single aspect of his life so it revolved around one thing and he would never see that one thing again. His lifestyle went up in smoke. What did he have to look forward to except complete and utter humiliation and facing his victims and their parents in a court of law, having all his secrets exposed. This was a very private guy and a controlling bully who lost control of everything.

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Response to Mike 03 (Reply #14)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:18 PM

30. Because he's a narcissist who thought he could buy his way out of it?

A narcissist who is probably well aware of the different standards of justice in this country for those who are wealthy.

Those are two pretty good ones.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #30)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:23 PM

34. He bought his way out the first time.

This time, he was pretty much screwed and the process was only just beginning.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #34)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:48 PM

55. Maybe, but these guys often think they can get through anything.

Did he kill himself? Probably. Is it okay to ask questions, demand accountability etc.? Fuckin A right it is.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #30)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:31 PM

37. His fortunes were turning against him

A few things happened that really screwed up his escape plan. 1. The contents of his safe were seized. 2. People who had stood by him in the past were throwing him under the bus, like Dershowitz and Wexner. 3. The massive haul of documents he'd fought for years to keep secret was just dumped, which also contain extremely embarrassing revelations. I think he knew his game was up. I think his lawyers probably even told him his game was up.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #30)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:43 PM

76. Narcissists also can't stand being destroyed

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #76)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 09:06 PM

99. No, narcissists never accept the proposition that they've even been destroyed

...which is what makes the supposition of suicide implausible if you also believe the person to be narcissistic.

See post #97 below for an explanation.

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Response to PandoraAwakened (Reply #99)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 01:06 PM

109. There is NO way he killed himself for a variety of reasons especially the narcissist

condition and I cant believe how many people on this site go out of their WAY to argue with me and others about it

hmmm..hmmm...

plants everywhere

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #109)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 02:52 PM

114. The ones who believe it was just an unassisted suicide are either...

extremely naive or are for some reason ignoring history—i.e., Oswald killed Kennedy without any previous connection to anybody else. Please!

And Jack Ruby got into the detention facility unassisted and killed Oswald before he could spill his guts. Really?

And the DC Madame hung herself conveniently too. Oka-a-a-a-a-y.

Come on! Political murders happen quite often. Epstein knew too much about the sexual predilections of too many powerful, rich people.

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Response to brush (Reply #114)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 04:25 PM

115. Russian Embassy openly supports Gabbard and yet she has some fans here, SIGH

Epstein OBVIOUSLY murdered and yet I am told I am the one who is out of his mind.

We dont deserve to survive.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #115)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 09:34 PM

117. Yeah, they say it's just another conspiracy theory even though...

Barr visited that jail before Epstein's demise. What the hell for? An Attorney General visiting a jail? Please.

And speaking of Russians (who have a preferred candidate), they use poison quite often.

Wonder if they offered their services?

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Response to Mike 03 (Reply #14)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:28 PM

85. Doesn't fit

1. Epstein was wealthy enough that he could afford the best lawyers. He stood a good chance of a hung jury, a light sentence or even acquittal, especially if he turned state''s evidence.
2. He was in solitary, under video surveillance, and was a high profile politically connected prisoner.
3. There are a lot of people breathing easier now that he's gone.
4. Narcissists very seldom commit suicide. It is quite literally foreign to their nature

It is possible that this is exactly what it appears on the surface, but given the political ramifications of Epstein testifying and the brazen failure to follow protocol, it stinks to high heaven

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Response to Mike 03 (Reply #14)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:45 PM

90. I believe most of the suspicion...

Is not about the manner of his death, but why he was in a position to be able to take his own life. That doesn't make sense in these circumstances.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:00 PM

15. Whether he did it himself or not - he should have been on suicide precautions.

That's the mystery - and no, I'm not credulous enough to accept that
it was "Oops - we just fucked up - sorry..." situation. He may very well have
killed himself. That's not even the relevant issue. The issue is why he wasn't on
suicide watch. He was high value. What is going on? It's SOP to have prisoners
with his history on suicide watch - however much they dislike it. This stinks to me.

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Response to harumph (Reply #15)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:05 PM

19. Agree!

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:03 PM

17. Uh-huh, and Trump & Barr are good guys who didn't have anything to do with Epstein...

and would never tamper with justice, even if they did know him.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:05 PM

18. Yep. Tried to kill himself once, things looking worse,

already on a suicide watch, and he ends up killing himself.

If only there had been a sign that he might kill himself.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:08 PM

21. No

But this is too convenient.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:09 PM

22. Well, maybe so, but if so, they may well have LIHOP.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:09 PM

24. Of course that may be the truth. But there is every reason to be suspicious, given he'd been on

suicide watch not long prior and taken off. Not to mention the scores of former Federal Prosecutors and even FBI officials who are questioning this.

Suicide in prison is not rare. Nor is homicide. Nor is negligent oversight. With FBI/IG investigations (even under Barr), there may be some final determination. We can only hope.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #24)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:34 PM

42. +1, it's irrational to take the Trump administration at face value

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:11 PM

25. One thing we might be seeing on DU

with the difference of opinion is that some of us probably expected him to kill himself, and maybe those of us who did, like me, should be more skeptical of the suicide story. I definitely don't trust William Barr. I just think there's a better than fifty percent chance that it's a suicide, but by no means do I think it's 100%.

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Response to Mike 03 (Reply #25)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:06 PM

63. +1000

I am always skeptical when it's anything that is remotely involving the US government. Always.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:13 PM

26. I'm skeptical. nt

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:16 PM

28. This Was a Very Convenient Suicide

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Response to dlk (Reply #28)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:32 PM

39. Dunno.

The primary witness(es) are still around.

"Convenient" is one of those adjectives that really requires arguments (like verbs) to have much meaning. Convenient to whom? For what purpose? Having a cell phone is convenient (for me) at times, at other times it's very much not convenient. Sometimes it's convenient because it's a timer, sometimes because it's a paperweight, or a camera. Sometimes it's inconvenient for me but very convenient for somebody else--my wife, for instance, trying to tell me to do something.

To say it's convenient itself requires a raft of assumptions about to whom and for what--but they're often nothing more than assumptions.

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Response to Igel (Reply #39)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:43 PM

77. If you block your wife on your phone


Then she at least has to find you first.

Plus, it takes care of your girlfriend getting jealous when your wife calls.

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Response to Igel (Reply #39)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:00 PM

79. This was a Convenient Suicide for Those Who Utilized Epstein's "Services"

And who terrorized and abused hundreds of underaged girls. Their probability of being outed has now been been drastically reduced. Comparing these horrific crimes to a timer or paperweight or camera doesn’t sound the least bit misogynistic. Only someone with no conscience would make light of this horrific situation.

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Response to dlk (Reply #28)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:34 PM

41. +1,

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Response to dlk (Reply #28)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:45 PM

89. Many examples of prisoners killing themselves. nt

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:17 PM

29. Maybe he faked his death

with the help of Trump and Barr, and is back on his private island. We may never know...

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Response to torius (Reply #29)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:43 PM

52. Maybe he is with that Enron dude

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:19 PM

31. Things are just as they are. Appearance is the illusion of observational perspective.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:20 PM

33. I read a while ago Epstein was severly depressed. Not unusual to be suicidal and

yes, I am very skeptical that anything or anyone had him killed.

Now, the why someone took him off suicide watch needs very careful study.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:25 PM

35. What is perfectly clear to me as things appear

A man with dubious sources of income and a corral of young girls who partied with an abundance of rich and powerful people was about to be put on a witness stand.
We wait for further news.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:33 PM

40. If you ignore the obvious yes

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #40)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:41 PM

48. obvious what?

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #48)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:47 PM

54. That bar and Trump are running the government

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #54)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:54 PM

58. Well yeah..1 is potus the other is ag....

What the HELL has that got to do with Epstein taking the cowards way out?

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #58)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:55 PM

60. Bookmarked

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:40 PM

47. How dare you.....be reasonable...unacceptable.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:51 PM

56. No, you are not the only one.

I can see how people can be suspicious, and I admit to a being a bit skeptical, myself. But, more likely than not, things are probably just as they appear.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 04:56 PM

61. Always or are there ever exceptions?

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:01 PM

62. No. Sometimes. A weed in the flower bed is just as it appears but an egg in the unicorn nest

atop the banana plant in the same Iowa flower bed needs a second look.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:12 PM

66. I agree.

And it's disturbing to see so many people go down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole. This is how the people on the right ended up going over the edge. When the facts come out a lot of people on the left won't believe them if they don't line up with what they want to believe.

Please wait until the facts come out. Be rational.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:13 PM

67. But then people wouldn't have so much fun pretending life was like their favorite TV show or movie!

Never mind that the usual end to a child molester's life is suicide. It's THIS one that's all deep-state QAnon-worthy, probably with alien intervention to boot!

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Response to PSPS (Reply #67)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:48 PM

78. I hadn't thought of the alien angle

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #78)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:06 PM

80. The next thing you know, we'll start seeing things like this

This was one of Rumsfeld's 2001 fantasies that was uncritically repeated by the press at the time.


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Response to PSPS (Reply #67)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 08:52 PM

97. "Usual end to a child molester's life is suicide." Is it?

Do you have citations for that?

I think, more accurately, it depends on whether the molester suffers or doesn't suffer from Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).

If the molester has NPD, as many here claim about Epstein, then he most certainly did NOT commit suicide.

With NPD, what is called the "false image" has virtually complete control of all thought and behavior, and self-preservation at any cost is it's overriding objective. It is actually physically impossible for someone with NPD to even contemplate suicide.

I'm not speculating one way or the other about Epstein's death. I'm just saying you can't have it both ways. He could not have been both clinically narcissistic and suicidal.

Honestly, I really wish more people would do even a small amount of research on NPD---if they did, then they would completely understand and be able to anticipate every vile word and action coming from the pResident-in-Grief.

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Response to PandoraAwakened (Reply #97)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 11:51 PM

107. Many personality disorders are overlapping and often do not exist in isolation. People out of

options, facing confinement, knowing they may be killed even if they are kept apart from gen. pop., and who have a history of attempting, are at risk. He was likely a narcissistic sociopath.

It is not unusual for sociopaths to react strongly when their house of cards is destroyed, the lies they tell exposed, their ability to exploit others taken from them.

I do think he knew this time that he was finished.

As to how he was let off suicide watch, well that’s a question. If we calm down and wait, it might get answered.

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #107)

Mon Aug 12, 2019, 03:11 AM

118. Overlapping disorders does not change the physiological science

that if one of those disorders is Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), suicide is most definitely off the table.

I, for one, am not so willing to make an assertion such as "likely a narcissistic sociopath" about Epstein. Not all sociopaths, and, indeed, not all psychopaths, have NPD. In fact, most clinically diagnosed psychopaths do NOT also have NPD. Studies show that NPD in prison populations, including those convicted of murder, appears to be approximately the same as that of the general population---about 4%.

Again, I don't really have an opinion one way or another about whether Epstein died of suicide or homicide. Either of those determinations can only come from scientific forensic evidence, not from opinion. Now, whether you'll ever get to hear the truth of that evidence is a whole other story. The history of similar high-profile cases says no, you will not ever know, regardless of how calmly or hysterically you await.

The main point I wanted to make in my previous post, which seems pretty clear even as I re-read it, is that those who proffer the supposition, "Epstein committed suicide because he's a narcissist" are just sadly misinformed about the physiology of narcissism. "Narcissistic" and "suicidal" in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

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Response to PandoraAwakened (Reply #118)

Mon Aug 12, 2019, 04:27 AM

119. Rather not argue with you about PDs. I will say that although diagnostically they provide a

framework, they are not hard and fast, written in concrete, nor is the criteria to determine them as set out in the DSM followed to the letter in practice.

The prevalence of sociopathic features in the criminal population has been well studied and, in fact, as I am sure you know, gave rise to the original checklist developed by Hare.

Though you insist that Epstein, at least in so much as we know about his behavior, his history, his thinking, can only have been a pure narcissist, neither you nor I can diagnose him with certainty. He just as easily could be labeled a sociopath, and in any case, there is nothing in the literature to suggest these disorders are mutually exclusive.

As to your “physiology of narcissism,” as with other personality disorders, psychiatry has not determined a particular physiology underlying or linked to it, even on an interdisciplinary basis.

All of this, the area of personality disorders, is still theoretical, based on useful constructs, not even accepted universally as having a scientific basis. No matter, let’s accept your diagnosis.

And let’s discount the fact that psychiatry often fails miserably at predicting behavior. This is especially borne out in forensic psychology studies.

You are simply wrong to state that a person with narcissistic traits never commits suicide. Many propose that narcissism is a cloak for self-hatred, for low self-esteem. Whether or not that is the case in every case, a narcissistic individual placed in a room without mirrors, so to speak, deprived of the means by which to sustain the myth of self, no longer adored, stripped of props, without the means to exert ego, or to feed the incessant need to shine in the eyes of others, loses that defense and that weapon, the mask of narcissism. Aging Lotharios, whose physical appearance has been essential to feeding narcissistic needs, will sometimes suffer such distress, they enter therapy.

With or without entertaining psychological profiling, it is clear Epstein was losing everything. Freedom is crucial to most people. So that alone...

Epstein’s victim stated that his and his partner-in-crime’s lives revolved around their obsession with sex. But sex with young and beautiful people, not a shady cell mate. Gone. Money, status, power related to the ability to exploit others (if nothing else, Epstein was predatory) and to achieve ego satisfaction, all gone.

Epstein, by any measure, had every reason to commit suicide. Whether or not he did though, if he
was enabled, who knows? Neither you nor I do.



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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #119)

Mon Aug 12, 2019, 05:59 AM

120. Definitely not arguing with you. I will say, however,

that you saying, "Though you insist that Epstein...can only have been a pure narcissist" is a rather stunning example of the importance of reading comprehension skills, given that I most
most definitely did not insist on anything of the sort in any way whatsoever.

In fact, an actual analysis of what I wrote would lead an unbiased reader not clouded by defensiveness to understand that I doubt Epstein suffered from NPD.

In the interest of not encouraging the practice of gaslighting (which is itself a distinctively narcissistic trait), please reread your own post where YOU not I, definitively pronounced Epstein a "narcissistic sociopath" and proferred that as a primary argument for a suicide theory.

Finally, as I already stated, but am repeating to break through the skim-reading barrier, I myself am unwilling to opine on whether a suicide or a homicide occurred based solely on armchair psycho-analysis issued with sweeping, definitive statements, especially those that are in and of themselves oxymorons. And frankly, to do so is irresponsible.

P.S. A good friend just suggested to me that perhaps you thought my use of the term 'oxymoron' was a personal insult, which it definitely is not. Apparently, or so he insists, many people don't know that this is a grammar term for when someone combines two diametrically opposed ideas in the same proposition. He says most people think the term is synonymous to the derogatory 'moron.' I am so sorry if that is the cause of your misread.

Peace to you.

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Response to PandoraAwakened (Reply #120)

Mon Aug 12, 2019, 06:10 AM

121. Oh for goodness sake. Attitude. I taught college English. I know what an oxymoron is. Just never

heard of “the physiology of narcissism” which prevents a narcissist from killing herself.

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #121)

Mon Aug 12, 2019, 11:49 AM

123. Oh, good grief. I'm not sure which is worse...

...a former English teacher who displays a blatant lack of comprehension by claiming an author has written something that they didn't...

or...

...a former English teacher who, called out for the double whammy of both misconstruing and misrepresenting, is incapable of acknowledging their error, instead deflecting to the childish ad hominem attack of "attitude" (progeny of a patriarchal society that attempts to paint women who stand up for themselves as "bitches").

How very, shall we say, narcissistic of you: "Oh for goodness sake. Attitude." ---"Not me, you!" --- "I'm no puppet; you're a puppet!" Sound familiar? The very fact that you can barely control yourself from responding with anything but an apology proves the point.

BTW, this current college professor believes in calling out insidious gaslighting at every turn that it rears its ugly head.

Good luck, and may peace and love find you.



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Response to PandoraAwakened (Reply #123)

Mon Aug 12, 2019, 12:47 PM

124. Thanks. It has. NT

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:32 PM

68. That thinking is why people in prison are being released because of

the finding that they ARE innocent.
Sometimes things are not as they seem.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:35 PM

70. Certainly not

However, I do not believe it is the case with Epstein's suicide. There are many unanswered questions. For example, why was he released from being on suicide watch just a few days post an attempted suicide? This is unheard of in this field. Did hand wringing take place which caused someone to go against best practices? Who knows?
Also, it is good to be skeptical at times. It's good not to accept everything at face value. When we have criminals at the helm of our government, I say skepticism is a necessity. It's early days.
I remember some of us being called conspiracy theorists after the Nov 2016 elections, when we stated that we believed Russia had meddled with our election.
Time will create a more accurate picture.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:36 PM

71. You are 100% correct, but people LOVE a mystery, reality is boring! nt

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Response to USALiberal (Reply #71)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 09:46 PM

102. Not these days!

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:37 PM

73. No, you're not

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:41 PM

75. It appears like a lot of deals were made to keep him out of prison

And when those shady deals were overturned, that at least two attempts were made to kill a man who was supposed to be in protected custody.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:15 PM

82. "Some times a cigar is just a cigar". -- Sigmund Freud n/t

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:21 PM

83. it is a possibly adequate explanation

there are others, and more facts, many many more facts would help

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:25 PM

84. Well, Bill Barr recently expressed his love of vigillante justice.

See this: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212361629

This death is very convenient.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:30 PM

86. No but I'd like details on how he did it

Seems strange that he was able to get around the standard policy and procedures for someone under suicide watch. No spinning theory here. I just think knowing the how will allow for a full understanding.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:33 PM

87. It is certainly one possibility.

So far, I see conjecture and speculation. Early days, don't you know. The story will be filled in with facts in the days ahead - or not. Opinions will change, conjecture will change - or not. As with Jeffrey Epstein, so it goes.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:43 PM

88. I don't doubt that anyone in his position would be suicidal. But...

While statistics alone make it not at all surprising, serious questions remain.

That he was able to carry it out is what defies reason. Anyone familiar with the protocols involved with suicide prevention in detention facilities will understandably have questions. If on watch, how was it not prevented? If not on watch, why not given the circumstances and statistics?

US reps like Ted Lieu and Lois Frankel are hardly tinfoil hate wearing conspiracy theorists and they have expressed concerns.

I don't think he was murdered. I want to know why he was allowed to commit suicide.

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Response to Pacifist Patriot (Reply #88)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:54 PM

95. This. Exactly this.

I have no doubt that Epstein was suicidal or that he finally succeeded in killing himself. That part is blatantly obvious.

What I want to know is how he managed to get OFF suicide watch. Who made that decision and why, given his recent history and the importance of him living long enough to go to trial. Then let's take a good close look at the bank accounts of the prison staff who made some really poor judgment calls.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:46 PM

91. If he needed murdering, why in a highly controlled

environment like jail? Why not outside any time in the past couple years when anyone might have done it?

And why no one else? No one'd be safer with Flynn, or Manafort, or, or, or...dead?

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #91)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 09:12 PM

101. Because killing him in the most highly.visible high profile way possible

under circumstances that will lead the press, Congress, law enforcement and most of the public to raise questions within hours of the death is the smartest and most adept way to murder someone to keep him quiet and throw suspicion off of you.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #101)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 01:27 AM

108. Oh, of course. Duh!

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:47 PM

92. It seems likely that things really are as they appear.

The problem is that we have reached a point the nothing - nothing - this administration says can be taken at face value. Just because Epstein was in a federal facility under the control of AG Barr and Barr quickly - before an autopsy or an investigation - said it was suicide doesn't mean it wasn't suicide. Then again, it doesn't mean that we can be confident that it was suicide. (Trump has re-tweeted that Bill Clinton had him killed - so apparently Trump isn't convinced that Barr is to be believed.)

We're in dark times when we immediately - and reasonably - suspect that our government is lying to us.

I wish that I had confidence that a complete investigation will occur. Unfortunately, the FBI is under Barr's control, so I cannot have that confidence.

Dark times, indeed.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 06:49 PM

94. Nah ...

Lots of powerful people out there with lots of bucks. I don't trust anyone, even dead Epstein.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 09:01 PM

98. I came across this though

Former MCC inmate: There’s ‘no way’ Jeffrey Epstein killed himself

When you’re on suicide watch, they put you in this white smock, a straight jacket. They know a person cannot be injurious to themselves.

The clothing they give you is a jump-in uniform. Everything is a dark brown color.

Could he have done it from the bed? No sir. There’s a steel frame, but you can’t move it. There’s no light fixture. There’s no bars.

They don’t give you enough in there that could successfully create an instrument of death. You want to write a letter, they give you rubber pens and maybe once a week a piece of paper.

Nothing hard or made of metal.

And there’s a cop at the door about every nine minutes, whether you’re on suicide watch or not

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2019/08/10/former-mcc-inmate-theres-no-way-jeffrey-epstein-killed-himself/amp/

The time he tried before he actually said it was an assault.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 09:10 PM

100. Call me crazy, but

It doesn't make sense to me that he would have been taken off suicide watch and close monitoring under the circumstances.

His death was too convenient to too many people for me to buy the "just a suicide" explanation.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 09:47 PM

103. No, you are not the only one.

People here are far too quick to jump to the nearest conspiracy. In another post on this topic someone darkly predicted that those who took him off suicide watch will be the next to go. Really?

There can be a serious lack of critical thinking on DU.

And yes, I'm certain the SOB offed himself rather than face what he did. On my FB page a friend who suffers from depression (and posts about it frequently) posted that he wasn't sure if Epstein didn't succumb to depression. I responded that he was most likely depressed because he'd finally been caught and that I had zero sympathy for him.

Just my take.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 09:56 PM

104. Fascinating how the propaganda wheel turns

"Epstein was suicidal." Please cite the clinician issuing this supposed edict.

"He had tried before." And yet, most stories on the incident from a few weeks earlier do note that Epstein himself repeatedly insisted he had been beaten up and that the finger marks around his neck were not his own. (BTW, hasn't science proven that it's actually impossible to choke oneself with your own hands? Has anyone here ever tried this trick themselves? Just curious.)

"He probably acted all normal and calm so he could be taken off suicide watch." Wasn't he taken off suicide watch because he was quite vociferously insisting that he had been attacked, and someone who actually understands how physiology works agreed that he couldn't have choked himself to near death?

So, I guess, in an odd and perverted way, the original post is correct, just not in the way the writer thought (exactly opposite, in fact), in that "sometimes things are just as they appear."

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 10:01 PM

105. Am I the only one who thinks 24 hours isn't enough time to have a definitive opinion?

We have literally no evidence one way or the other.

It is interesting though how invested some people seem to be in arguing that it must be a suicide and that no foul play could possibly have been involved.

Is there good reason to think he was suicidal? Yes. Does that mean he wasn't "helped"? I don't know. But I would like to know why he was taken off suicide watch and why the cameras were "broken" and whether or not anything else suspicious was happening at the same time.

Being skeptical and asking reasonable questions isn't the same as brokering in conspiracy theories.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 11:38 PM

106. Agree. It's not hard at all to imagine him committing suicide.

I’ll reserve opinion on what happened or what was really going on with him but when something that utterly narcissistic blows up in someone’s face a reaction like that isn’t unimaginable at all.

I hear nothing about family, how they think he made his money, or anything else other than that madness about wealth and getting away with monstrous acts. Very odd.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 01:24 PM

111. Two philosophies that pretty much cover it all...

Nothing is EVER as it seems...

and

There is no such thing as a coincidence.

Now, carry on.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 01:40 PM

113. Absoutely. Yet any suicide should be investigated while the individual was incarcerated.

Also had been flagged for suicide. He was a coward and I suspect incompetence behind this....which is not conspiratorial on any level, more common than one might imagine.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 04:31 PM

116. If he looks like a racist and acts like a racist, well...

 

But the media bends over backwards to make excuses.

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Response to OKNancy (Original post)

Mon Aug 12, 2019, 08:05 AM

122. My guess is he did this by his own hands

As recently as three months ago, the guy was sitting on top of his world. Last week, he's in solitary confinement with little hope for anything better in his future.

I'd guess it's tough to go from a life of champagne and lobster to bologna sandwiches. Privilege is a difficult thing to say good-bye to.

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