Do we have a system that allows all citizens to be 'rich' at the same time?

[Garion_55]

Last edited Sat Jul 20, 2019, 04:32 AM - Edit history (1)

When i debate these #MAGits thats the question about capitalism that always makes them flee from the conversation.

I ask them to define 'rich'...100k a year? 1 mil a year? you tell me, pick whatever number you want.

so one of them says ok, to be rich you have to make 1 million a year. and i say awesome! if you make that, you are living the 'AMERICAN DREAM'

then i ask them, is our capitalist system designed so that 100% of its citizens can make that 1 million a year and so that we call ALL be 'rich' every year? ALL of us living that dream? All at once?

ummmm......uhhhhhh.....we cant pay people at mcdonalds a million a year!

why not?

who the hell would want to work at mcdonalds at that shit hole putting up with that crap if you could make a million a year doing a good job that you really loved? or doing nothing at all just sitting at a computer all day trading a bunch of numbers?




who indeed?



so i ask them, is there anything that we could tweak about capitalism that would allow ALL of us to be rich at the same time?


well no, of course not, with this system, you cant have rich people without poor people. if everyone was rich no one would work and we would all be the same. who would do the menial hard labor tasks like mowing all of our mansions front lawns?

who indeed?

[AncientGeezer]

1. I have no clue what I just read...

Could you rephrase it.....maybe so it can be figured out?

What does this mean..."then i ask them, is our capitalist system designed so that 100% of its citizens can make that 1 million a year and so that we call ALL be 'rich' every year?"

[mr_lebowski]

3. When they say 'everyone should pick themselves up by their bootstraps' and quit complaining

that they don't make enough money ... I point out that there's no way our economic system WORKS without poor people doing menial jobs. For there to be wealthy people, it also requires large numbers of people to work at Walmart, McDonalds, to stock grocery store shelves, to be sanitation workers, to be janitors, to do landscaping, to frame houses, etc.

It's literally impossible for everyone to be CEO's and Hedge Fund Managers and Doctors... so the idea that all poor people should stop complaining and asking for help with things like food stamps and medicaid is a fucking ridiculous argument, because there's ONLY SO MANY well-paying jobs to be had, no matter WHAT anyone does to 'better themselves'.

Even if everyone suddenly got a $1M Harvard education, got straight-A's, etc ... there wouldn't magically be wonderful, high-paying jobs for all of them just because they got fancy degrees. The economy REQUIRES an under-class of low-wage workers.

UNLESS we start requiring the richest people to SHARE more than they are, anyway.

[Garion_55]

4. ok ill give it a go! 8-)

one thing you here from right wingers is that everyone has a shot at the american dream. yes? cuz america is that great.

i dont disagree. america is that great! and its true that anyone from anywhere can get a shot at having the american dream!

but 'getting a shot' sounds like gambling, or hitting the lottery. like only certain people will get it.

shouldnt we all have it just by being a citizen?

i say yes that we should all of us live the life of millionaires because thats the american dream.

but who will serve us our basic needs? if we are all rich?

who are the poor?

can capitalism exist without the poor?

#skynet?

[AncientGeezer]

10. "shouldnt we all have it just by being a citizen? " No.

The promise is opportunity...NOT outcome.

[Blues Heron]

8. our system requires poor people to exist

is another way of looking at it

[flotsam]

2. I'mma gonna steal this

and hope you don't object...

[Mike Nelson]

5. Of course not...

… rich people have to have a concurrent large amount of poor people, to be rich. That's being rich with money... or power...

People can also be rich in other things... Crooked Donald is very poor in most areas. How many real friends does he have? Do his wives and children really love him?

[Garion_55]

6. Let me try in math terms...

Annual USwealthgenerated / Citizens = Equal.

everyone living the american dream.


Can Capitalism = Equal?

If yes, how.

[AncientGeezer]

11. That's not math....by any definition....of math

[Sherman A1]

7. Do have, NO Could have, Yes

HUMAN-CENTERED CAPITALISM
Capitalism as an economic system has led to unparalleled innovation and improvement in the human condition. Many consider it to have “won” the war of ideas against socialism, but that simplistic view ignores that there is no such thing as a pure Capitalist system. And our current version of institutional capitalism and corporatism is a relatively recent development.

Our current emphasis on corporate profits isn’t working for the vast majority of Americans. This will only be made worse by the development of automation technology and AI.

We need to move to a new form of capitalism – Human Capitalism – that’s geared towards maximizing human well-being and fulfillment. The central tenets of Human Capitalism are:

Humans are more important than money
The unit of a Human Capitalism economy is each person, not each dollar
Markets exist to serve our common goals and values
The focus of our economy should be to maximize human welfare. Sometimes this aligns with a purely capitalist approach, where different entities compete for the best ideas. But there are plenty of times when a capitalist system leads to suboptimal outcomes. Think of an airline refusing to honor your ticket because they can get more money from a customer who purchases last-minute, or a pharmaceutical company charging extortionate rates for a life-saving drug because the customers are desperate.


https://www.yang2020.com/policies/human-capitalism/

[localroger]

9. The key phrase is post-scarcity society

Improving technology should make it possible for everyone to live comfortably, because there will be no need for menial laborers at places like McDonald's -- all that work will be done by robots. The problem is that in capitalism, the people who used to do those jobs aren't elevated, they are thrown away while the billionaires who made the robots take all the wealth. A good science fictional treatment of how it might work instead is Iain M. Banks' Culture series; the most accessible book of which is Player of Games.

[brooklynite]

12. Is there another system that you think WILL allow 100% of the population to be "rich"?

Or even "Middle Class"?

[BSdetect]

13. I've been asking certain people this for decades: How many people can be millionaires?

It can lead to an interesting discussion indeed.

The certain people are usually right wing types.