The Fracturing of Occupy Wall Street

[hack89]

From The Nation:

"Nothing about the park feels like Liberty Plaza anymore. Every inch of the perimeter, for instance, is lined with metal barricades, just inside which stand private security guards, husky and rude, dressed in all black, apart from their yellow vests. A massive Christmas tree has been set up in the park and barricaded off. Besides the few protesters, that’s who’s here. The guards and their barricades.

There’s no kitchen, no library, no medical tent, no media center. There is no drum circle, no sign-painting station, no welcome table on Broadway, no altar around the meditation tree in the northwest corner. There are only about a hundred people, deliberating democratic minutiae, trying to get through a too-big agenda, packed with yesterday’s unattended business.

This would be hard enough to do without the people who keep loudly interrupting the meeting. But every meeting I’ve recently attended—and from what I gather, every recent meeting I have not—has been brought to a grinding halt, the basic ability to debate and consent to proposals crippled by a determined few who will not to let things proceed until their issues are addressed. This is the reason for the backed-up business. The people shouting about their needs over the debate.

It’s clear that the primary issue afflicting Occupy right now is the lack of an occupation. In the month since the New York Police Department violently forced the occupiers out of Zuccotti, the people whose residence was Liberty Plaza Park have nowhere to go. Some of them had previously been homeless. Others left their homes to join the movement. But deprived of the food station, the medical tent, the things that once fulfilled their needs for basic survival, they have rapidly lost faith in Occupy Wall Street’s much-vaunted democratic process to provide the supportive community that once existed here."

http://www.thenation.com/article/165087/fracturing-occupy-wall-street

[mmonk]

1. I will have to check OWS later this evening and check out the discussions.

I know those who hold false faith that politicians and a failed political process will help address the questions OWS asked will feel relieved with the article.

[hack89]

3. What about those that pinned so many hopes on OWS? That really need it to succeed? nt

[sabrina 1]

14. This article is a waste of ink. Does this author think that OWS is only at Zuccotti Park?

He sounds more like Erin Burnett than someone from the Nation. He needs to ask someone where to go in NYC to find out what is going on.

This is a hit piece worthy of the MSM. Focused on a couple of stragglers at the Park.

Interesting that he does not address the Mayor's duty to look after the homeless, who were without shelter before OWS. And now are again neglected by the city as they have been for years. Shameful in a city like NY that until OWS came along, the homeless were left to die on the streets of NY and/or be thrown in jail.

What an ignorant article. Maybe he should have talked to someone like Jesse Lagreca eg.

One thing is for sure, Myerson is not going to be happy as this movement moves through the winter challenging the Banks, organizing, as it did yesterday, demonstrations in solidarity with other occupations and grows every day until the Spring when there will be massive demonstrations and events all over this country and the rest of the world.

'Bloomberg, Beware! Zuccotti Park is Everywhere'!

All over the city right now and no one I know is at all concerned about this 'fracturing' Myerson seems so worried about.

[TheWraith]

108. You qualify it as a "hit piece" because you don't agree with it.

The fact of the matter is that anyone not taking an "Emperor's new clothes" view can see that OWS is coming apart at the seams.

[sabrina 1]

113. I know that is your dream, you've certainly said it often enough

but unfortunately for you, and fortunately for the people of the world, this movement will be here, bigger, stronger and more powerful as it continues to grow, for years to come. Because that is how long it will take to try to deal with the horrendous damage done and continuing to be done to this country and so many others around the world.

This is a defining moment in history. There have been others, but we are fortunate to be here at a point when the tide is about to change and to be a part of that much needed change.

The American Revolutionaries among other historical movements, had plenty of nay-sayers also, but that did not stop them.

Why don't you explain what it is you think they are wrong about? And never mind the tactics, they have proven to have been overwhelmingly successful since it is now almost three months since they began and nearly everyone knows who they are and what they are talking about.

I notice you never talk about the issues. Just repeat the Wall St. think tank talking points. What is it about this movement you do not agree with? Why are you so afraid of it?

[mmonk]

16. They will still need for it to succeed because having a society that meets

basic needs for the many needs for it to (or at least its ideals). Reaganomics, Friedman fantasy free market dictums, and austerity measures suck and fail.

[Union Scribe]

20. Well I'm sure they're just crushed by your articles today.

Lol.

[hack89]

22. Failure to face potential failure is an unfortunately all too common human failing

I just hate to see OWS piss away everything they have done.

[HangOnKids]

23. Of course you do hack89

I know you are shoulder to shoulder with the good people of OWS. Good progressive that you are.

[hack89]

25. So if one is not 100% in agreement with OWS and their tactics they are not good progressives?

Progressives don't goosestep in lockstep agreement. We are different than the right wing.

[Union Scribe]

28. When one makes a concerted effort to spread the word

that OWS has fallen apart, has been corrupted, is hurting more than helping, etc. then I have little else to conclude than an overall opposition to OWS.

[hack89]

29. Two or three articles in two weeks? That's concerted? nt

[Union Scribe]

32. Not just talking about you.

You asked about "if one..." and I answered "if one..."

It really isn't difficult to see patterns, is what I'm saying. So people falling into those patterns shouldn't really be surprised that others will draw conclusions about the nature of their opinion, overall, on a topic.

[hack89]

34. And what is your opinion on strident efforts to enforce lockstep orthodoxy on OWS?

don't you agree there is a tendency to take any criticism of OWS poorly? I can't stand the "if you are not 100% for us you are 100% against us.' attitude here.

[Union Scribe]

37. I think OWS tactics are OWS business

and I am deeply suspicious of media criticisms and concerns about how OWS is being "perceived."

I am likely to dismiss any criticism that comes riding in on those articles. If people coming from liberal positions have things they'd like done differently or better I'd rather see those presented in their own words and not wearing MSM propaganda.

[hack89]

39. But who is OWS if not the people?

don't they represent me as well?

[boppers]

122. Nope. you represent yourself. eom

[hack89]

125. So OWS is not representative of all Americans? At least you are honest. nt

[boppers]

126. It's a forum for the 99%.

The 98% may have more pressing matters, like daycare and a nanny. The 8% may just be trying to get warm.

If you don't participate in democracy, well... you don't participate in democracy.

[hack89]

128. I actively participate in democracy - just not OWS. nt.

[hack89]

76. All I am saying is that OWS is pissing away the opportunity of a life time.

And I don't think it is a good thing.

[HangOnKids]

67. Geeze settle down

I never said you weren't a good progressive. Goosestepping and lockstep were nowhere to be found in my post to you. SHEESH! I have no clue where you are coming from. Have a nice night hack.

[hack89]

77. I don't respond well to smart ass sarcasm. nt

[HangOnKids]

117. Oh Sorry

If you are gonna dish it hack, better grow a set.

[hack89]

123. I don't think you are clear on the concept of "growing a set"

1. You make a smart ass comment
2. I point out the stupidity of you comments
3. You say you didn't really mean it.


Why didn't you defend your original comments? Why didn't you directly attack my credentials as a progressive instead of this passive aggressive BS?

[HangOnKids]

133. Sorry hack I didn't get that

Did you have something to say? I must have mised it.

[hack89]

134. Why am I not suprised. nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

2. Who needs Zuccotti Park when I've been given Superpowers.

I shall banish the NYPD and all police departments and sheriffs...we shall laugh the 1% out of their domeciles...we will...wait, was that just a bug?

[Speck Tater]

4. My two cents: Without clear and focused goals diffusion is inevitable.

Their goals are laudable, but too diffuse and abstract for the average person to wrap their heads around. They need to be clearly defined and brought into sharp focus, and, as the Republicans have learned so well, summarized in a few pithy slogans.

Now I sit back and wait for people to tell me that average people should understand the OWS goals. That's magical thinking. The religious right thinks that abstinence only should work. It doesn't, any more than the average person gets what's going on in OWS.

The formula for success is Sharp focus + Clear goals + Shared vision + a few great slogans. Right now it's a dog sled being pulled in a hundred directions by a hundred autonomous cats.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

7. They have articulated goals ...

Have you not been paying attention?

[mmonk]

13. Not many have unfortunately.

[Speck Tater]

18. I'm sure for someone very motivated to feret out those goals that's true.

But those goals have not been brought into the kind of focus it takes to get the average person to pay attention. And from the perspective of the average person there are just too many goals and they just aren't very clearly defined.

When they can explain everything they stand for with three bumper-sticker slogans, then they will start reaching the general public, and not before. And those three goals have to be in your face every day; on every tenth car you see driving down the street; repeated over and over an every sign and banner at every demonstration. Without that focus and unity of purpose it's a hundred tiny flashlights pointed in a hundred different directions instead of one powerful spotlight shining right smack at the problem.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. I can (but I have been paying attention)

1.- Medicare for All

2.- Money out of Politics

3.- Banking regulation.

By the way if you are waiting for the elite media to tell you this, you will wait for a long time.

[randome]

31. It doesn't matter in the slightest if those goals are articulated.

The message is not resonating.

OWS can orate to its heart's content but people are starting to be annoyed by them because they don't have a clear message.

With as many people on DU who are pointing this out; with Rachel Maddow (I kid you not) described as a corporate shill because she doesn't give enough coverage to OWS, with President Obama and most Democratic congressmen unwilling to sing OWS' praises, a rational person MIGHT conclude that perhaps, just perhaps, there is something in what they say or think about OWS' tactics.

But it's much easier to hide and pretend that everyone is against OWS. It's all a conspiracy, of course. We are all out to bring OWS down as hard and as fast as possible.

Yeah, that must be it.

[sabrina 1]

17. I wouldn't take this article too seriously. Seems like this guy

went to the wrong place to find out what is happening with OWS.

OWS is doing fine in NYC but they are not at Zuccotti Park except to maintain a presence there. Too bad he didn't do a hit piece on the owners of Zuccotti Park and the Mayor's girl friend who is on the board, owing the city taxes.

Not to worry though, the Occupiers will make sure everyone knows about these tax evaders.

He also, assuming his goal was not to write a hit piece about the movement, should have asked if the owners are now violating the agreement they have with the city which clearly states that the public must have access to the park 24 hrs a day seven days a week. Funny his focus on the occupiers rather than on what the real occupiers ARE focused on.

All these so-called 'progressive' orgs seem to be under the influence of the establishment. Which is why OWS and now Chicago and elsewhere, are developing their own media.

This movement will be around for years. It will take that long to even begin to undo the damage Myerson chose not to write about as he focused on a few people in the park.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

35. [phone]

[ProfessionalLeftist]

68. TheNation - who owns that pub? This is clearly an OWS hit piece

IMO, it smacks of it ie: propaganda.

[sabrina 1]

112. Yes, definitely a hit piece.

[pipi_k]

82. And a rather shitty thing

about the average person not fully understanding the goals of OWS, is that so many here have actually blamed people for their lack of full understanding.

Then, when asked, those same people refuse to explain.

Why is that, I wonder...

Is it because they don't fully understand either, but they want to look like they do so they take an arrogant stand in order to make others look stupid?

All I can say is, if I had information on something and it was important to me that others understood it as much as they could, I would explain as many times as it took. Five, ten, a hundred.

I would not sit on my ass and say, "I've explained it a thousand times and I'm SICK of it, and if one more person asks me, I'm going to SCREAM!!!"

No. I'll try my best to explain until the person understands at least half of what I'm saying. If, after understanding half of what I said, the person disagrees, then that's OK. But it just bugs the hell out of me when people don't get what I'm saying but disagree anyway.

[CJCRANE]

5. They'll be back.

Bank on it.

[Uncle Joe]

12. I agree, the Occupiers have only just begun to fight.

This isn't going away.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

6. I'm not sure what to make of the article.

It was kind of incoherent at times. Also very depressing, and it offered no solutions.

Another thing that comes to mind is the term "facilitators" which I've heard a lot about lately. Not sure what to make of that, either.

[Earth_First]

10. Facilitators are simply individuals who conduct the orderly movement of the GA

Often there is one co-facilitator to every 15 individuals in attendance of GA.

[Earth_First]

8. So a 3-hour General Assembly = a fractured #OWS?

You mean concencus building governace isn't a technique of instant gratification?!

[hack89]

11. Read closer

"But every meeting I’ve recently attended—and from what I gather, every recent meeting I have not—has been brought to a grinding halt"

[LiberalEsto]

9. The cops just took down Occupy Baltimore

I don't know if this was last night or today, just heard something about it on the radio earlier.

Are there any Occupations remaining, or have their campsites become unoccupied?

[roseBudd]

15. this is the most important article IMO that I have read about what this movement needs to do next

Occupy as a tactic, has to move on to the next logical step

http://beyondthechoir.org/diary/117/the-tactic-of-occupation-the-movement-of-the-99

[Fire Walk With Me]

19. Someone doesn't like #Occupy Wall Street.

[hack89]

21. Disappointed is more accurate. I see their efforts to date being pissed away

because they are to stubborn to change tactics.

[Fire Walk With Me]

33. Go to your local facilitation committee and get your questions, observations, and suggestions into

the stack, so they can be discussed at the General Assembly.

The movement is in the midst of adjusting to Phase Two, adding the concept of locationless to leaderless. It will continue to adapt and empower itself, and us as well. Get out and see, and where it is wrong, question and contribute.

[hack89]

38. I want them to enter the political process

there seems to be a lot of resistance to that - it might be worth the trouble to try again I guess.

[Fire Walk With Me]

46. That's a hot topic, and assumes that the existing, corrupt system is fixable.

Mr. Fuller says create a new system, don't bother attempting to fix the one which is broken. However, and I of course do not speak for the movement, action will be undertaken to remove from politics, the corrupting influences.

[hack89]

49. How do you fix politics by avoiding politics?

somehow ideals and words have to be translated into action - not seeing how it is going to happen.

[Fire Walk With Me]

50. You really need to get to a large #Occupation

and see all of the affinity groups, teach-ins, committees, facilitation, and most importantly, the General Assembly.

Those who haven't, may not understand what an evolved organism this is, and that as it evolves, it easily supercedes existing representational politics. Check my article today in GD on the People's Skype as a tool for GAs. This is basic and simplistic and shall evolve as is required.

#Occupy is a process. Spend some time looking it up and you'll see that it's not people sitting in tents asking for donations. Just yesterday, a west-coast wide action was undertaken with solidarity actions taking place internationally. This is no small thing!

[hack89]

51. And still at the end of the day

they have no real impact on Congress and state legislatures.

If the GA cannot settle on a plan of action to influence legislation and then find a way to implement that plan, then they are nothing more than another impotent debating society. And I don't want to listen to pipe dreams about tearing apart the system and building a new one. America does not want that - they want jobs and security.

[Fire Walk With Me]

53. If you somehow missed everything that happened yesterday, I cannot help you further.

You are complaining without taking any action to solve the issues you decry. Instead of posting against those actually doing something, you should get out and also do some work toward what you want.

How are your posts on this any less an impotent debating society than that which you decry? (Rhetorical, I'm through here, nothing constructive to be found.)

[hack89]

55. I am very active in local politics - I work very hard to get Democrats elected to office

so don't give me a bunch of shit about impotent debating societies - I understand all to well the hard work it takes to effect meaningful change.

[Fire Walk With Me]

57. Great! Why not then ask your local democrats to do something about all of the

peaceful protesters being brutalized across the country while =working for meaningful change=. Oh, that's right, the mayors of many of the towns with the worst brutality are in fact themselves, the worst offenders, with impunity.

No Democrat has said shit about the destruction of the 1st and 4th Amendments and unquestionable police brutality. I'd say that's something you could put some time and effort into changing for the better.

[hack89]

59. Occupy Providence is supported by local democrats

no violence, able to camp in a city park, no police harassment.

Their numbers are dwindling and it has no influence on the local political debate but it has been tolerated by the city and state.

[Fire Walk With Me]

60. "Tolerated"?

You do not see a problem with your wording?

Ask your dems to publicly decry the =unConstitutional= brutality occurring nation-wide. That would be working for positive change. Okay? Thank you very much for your interest in the Constitution and against police brutality. Or are you subtly approving of what has occurred? Is #Occupy threatening you with changes to the system?

[hack89]

61. We want our politicians to solve some real problems first

perhaps you have been reading about our pension mess - that's what we want them to concentrate on. It is an issue that will significantly impact our state for years to come - getting it right is the most important thing they will do in their life times.

Tolerated is the right choice of words - they have done nothing constructive while this state deals with a massive crisis. If they want to make themselves irrelevant that is their choice - they are tolerated while we get down to the real business at hand.

[Fire Walk With Me]

62. Thank you for clarifying the priorities.

We'll just be over here, bleeding, waiting until you can get to us. YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS.

[hack89]

74. Take off the hair shirt. OWS is not the only game in town

there are millions of local activists working hard to make their towns, cities and states better place. Your smug elitist BS doesn't work - we will still be working hard fixing our problems when OWS is a distant memory.

[Fire Walk With Me]

95. What exactly is elitist about the 99% working together for each others' benefit and community?

Millions of local activists and #Occupy are starting to work together, out of common interest. I was a body representing #Occupy's support for this particular cause, as was another fine DUer. Please note at least three other community groups as being present and verbal:

That same day, #Occupiers were here, promoting and supporting our #OLA declaration against corporate personhood:

And how about this? #Occupy DC expands to black churches:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/therootdc/post/occupy-dc-expands-to-black-churches/2011/12/13/gIQAseJtrO_blog.html

"Smug elitist BS"? #Occupy is not working hard fixing our problems? Ooookay. Ooooooookay. Go to a community action...you may see an #Occupier or two.

[hack89]

98. You are using OWS as a platform to look down on those who don't share your passion.

It is your smug elitist attitude I am talking about - unqualified support for OWS is not a litmus test for progressives.

[Fire Walk With Me]

101. Judge me then by any community-building actions I undertake

including supporting the community-building #Occupy movement.

Oakland mayor Quan is a "progressive democrat". Go back and see the first image I posted of a bloody US veteran, a couple of replies back. Quan did that to Scott Olsen, who got through IIRC more than one tour in Iraq without injury. A "progressive democrat" did that to him. And he's not alone, another Vet, merely attempting to go home from his business in Oakland, was beaten into the hospital during another of the FOUR attacks by this conniving, unConstitutional criminal calling herself both "progressive democrat" and "mayor".

I'm not smug; I'm enraged at the Democrats who are literally at war with the civilian population. I'm not elitist; I'm pushing everyone in a direction where everyone has an equally-heard and equally-valued voice. Been to any General Assemblies? I DO have an attitude...bullshit does not sit well with me, no matter the badge worn by its perpetrator(s). Your labels have broken down and displayed very nearly deadly violence. Must I infer from your stance that you are okay with this? You have not said that it is NOT okay, not in any way I can detect.

#Occupy says ENOUGH!

Rev. John Helmiere after meeting Seattle PD yesterday:

[hack89]

103. Why can't I judge you by your insulting and patronizing comments to me? nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

104. Why can't you answer me regarding your seemingly being okay with PDems nearly killing their citizens

???

I'm not being insulting and patronizing. If you're getting that, it's on you. You may be stuck with labels and definitions which have shown themselves to be utterly meaningless. I note that are ARE attacking me, instead of speaking meaningfully on the subjects I've raised.

Especially today, if Obama did indeed allow the monstrosity that is the NDAA to come into law.

[hack89]

105. That's exactly what I mean - I support violence against innocent protestors

just because I think those that represent me have more important things to worry about.

HORSE SHIT!

Here is a news flash - neither you or OWS are the moral gold standard by which all must be compared to. It is the height of arrogance and hubris to think you are that special.

[Fire Walk With Me]

106. Okay, finally a note against what Democratic mayors are doing to their citizens.

THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH OUR DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVES. This is what I hoping to fix, this has been revealed through response to #Occupy's expression of Constitutionally-guaranteed civil rights. The system is highly broken. It must be restored from what is currently an obviously criminal set of standards and practices.

Also, I do not understand your personal attacks. I'm against a corrupt, destructive, greedy system (which once used to work and =might=, =maybe=, be fixable). If not, I have no problem with the voice of the majority quickly and cleanly replacing it.

How does that merit your words? Are you upset because the #Occupy movement's model of consensus is far better than the current national system of representational government? Does the horizontal system of responsibility upset you? It works, I've seen it, I know some who have functioned as part of it and eloquently reported upon it (and its current weaknesses).

You are not left out. You are welcome. Anyone truly interested in building a better world are welcome. It does not exclude you. It is already changing the world for the better. Why not support that which is good for the vast majority? There is some sort of sticking point here. And personal attacks are uncalled-for.

[hack89]

107. "Or are you subtly approving of what has occurred?" Rember that little comment

after I refused to pay sufficient homage to OWS?

[Fire Walk With Me]

109. I am not demanding anything of you except

to perhaps tone down the personal attacks
to check if you have some absolute attachment to a system repeatedly brutalizing its citizens
to see if "progressive democrats" like Quan are good or bad to you.

You said NOTHING about the brutalization of US citizens, by elected Democrats, as being bad. Yes, I nudged you with that to learn exactly where you stand regarding elected Democrats repeatedly brutalizing US citizens. It's an important question and I am boggled you did not immediately, absolutely decry it. That I had to ASK.

There is little if anything for us to share if you will not both verbally and physically against elected Democrats ordering the repeated brutalization of US citizens who are applying their Constitutional rights.

Silence is consent.

[hack89]

110. You started it by accusing me of condoning violence against innocent protestors

just because your most important thing is not my most important thing.

Can you think of a viler insult?

[Fire Walk With Me]

111. I did not accuse you of it, I asked after you did not say a single word

against it, strongly implying that you felt the protester's safety and suffering (at the hands of Democrats) was not as important as the work you are doing.

Which is beyond my ability to understand. You also utterly overlooked that =I= am out with the groups doing positive work at the community level, while other #Occupiers are working a the city level here in LA, and beyond. We are doing the same important community work you claim to be so important that you needed to decry #Occupy in general-- while #Occupy is doing exactly what you consider important.

You are being circular and elliptical about this. Now you are blaming ME for your shortcoming/inaction. Why am I wasting my time...

[hack89]

114. Ok - got it. You are more progressive than me. Happy now? nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

116. ??What?? Exactly where are we failing to communicate?

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Top three priorities for OWS.

Getting money out of politics. (Citizens United)

Medicare for All

Oh yes, jobs in the us, good jobs.

I got no clue how these are not political.

Oh let me add, regulate banking industry / prosecute those who committed fraud.

[randome]

69. So you want the laws changed, huh?

Then the place OWS should direct its energy is...ta-da!...the lawmakers!

Unless armed insurrection is in the cards.

Is there anything -ANYTHING- about OWS you do not agree with?

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. You are aware of course, since every media outlet reported on this

That indeed there was a meeting scheduled with the progressive caucus. It was cancelled, but the approach law makers/ run for office...is coming, or here depending on how you interpret some of the data. Care to explain why only Countdown covered that story? If it had been a single tea partier with ten porta potties all elite media would be screaming from rooftops. Care to explain that disconnect? Better yet care to connect a few dots? Elite, conservative controlled media, there is your first, 100 foot tall neon sign, clue.

[hack89]

71. But we are making decisions and working on legislation right now - we can't wait for OWS

to get their shit together and decide to join us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Read post 81, not in the mood to retype.

[hack89]

88. They are still irrelevant to ongoing crisis in RI

a major crisis is being addressed without their participation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. But they are participating

Your real problem is the media...no, serious.

One reason for a dem to bring up an Ammendment to get rid of citizens united was occupy, and move to Ammend.

Now riddle me this, just on this one issue...you think the media wants to lose 5 billion in political commercials? (Estimated total cost for the elections of 2012).

Now be honest, if you could lose that much revenue, how would you report on this story? Or would you? So far the media has mostly avoided it, and from their POV it makes sense. Reporting on something that might kill THAT revenue stream makes no business sense.

[sabrina 1]

70. Tolerating the people?? And then people wonder why the political class is so unpopular.

Politicians don't get to tolerate the people they represent, however this is exactly how they have been acting, for far too long. And that is exactly why the people are now taking matters into their own hands.

This movement has lost faith in politicians and is moving beyond them. They are not that important. They've had years to deal with this country's problems and all that has happened when we allowed them to take charge is that things just keep getting worse.

Forgive us if we are no longer impressed with the 'serious business' of politicians.

I am very impressed though, with the caliber of people involved in this movement, and I can see some real possibilities of true leadership coming out of it in the future.

[hack89]

73. Judging by the rapidly dwindling the numbers, OWS is not the people in RI. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. If you are only counting physical occupiers

Youd be right... Here in San Diego it's grown from one physical occupation, to one physical occupation and last count eight other groups.

Here is a hint, the other eight rarely make it to the news.

[hack89]

86. How about we discuss their influence on critical issues in RI - looks like I'm still right. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. How about one of them was organized

By a democrat who ran for office? And the second by an aide to a member of a city council on her own time?

As I said, you really do not want to listen. Mark my words...six months tops. (it is already happening, the press, save countdown, is not reporting) you will see what YOU understand as political.

They are very political by the way.

And influence in real life...when I have the port spokesman for SSA ports use the occupy language in his statement to reporters (dutifully transcribed) that my dear is real life influence. The fact that we are having this discussion, and that the political and media elite are trying to disarm this...is real life influence.

For the record, the same exact media would call them heroes if they spoke arabic or Farsi.

[hack89]

90. I guess we will see

in the mean time I will continue preparing for the next election. Hopefully OWS will coalesce around some well defined issues that can influence the elections.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. I guess jobs is not well defined

Banking regs are not well defined...

Medicare for all is definitely not well defined. (Top three)

[coalition_unwilling]

41. I must second what Fire Walk is saying here. Rather than airing your objections

and misgivings here where they have only a very limited utility, far more productive imo to attend your local General Assembly and air them there (if that is possible for you).

There is also a website (http://interoccupy.org) that is trying to coordinate communications between various autonomous Occupy localities. This website might also be a good place for you to visit if visiting a local GA is impractical.

[Change has come]

66. Occupy the Armchair!

Please report back once you've reported your concerns to your local GA.

[hack89]

72. No - I will Occupy my local party election committee. We have an election to prepare for. nt

[Hutzpa]

26. Looks more like an assault on OWS.

this needs to be nipped now before it gets out of hand.

[AntiFascist]

27. There is an excellent program airing on Current TV "The 99 Percent: Vanguard"

It provides excellent coverage of OWS in NYC and an in depth look at some of the participants. I'm sure it will get much more exposure than this ill-informed article.

[FarCenter]

30. The point of the article is that the neo-anarchist method of organization has broken down

At least for the Zuccotti Park occupation.

On the other hand, the Tent City in Lakewood, NJ still seems to be in operation.

http://www.app.com/article/20111115/NJNEWS/311150128/Hundreds-walk-from-Lakewood-s-Tent-City-town-square-raise-awareness-NJ-s-homeless

http://www.tentcitynj.org/

[SomethingFishy]

36. Again? So when are you going to stop posting about it

and get out there and show them how it's done?

[hack89]

40. They are resistant to my idea of entering the political process. nt

[randome]

42. 'Resistant' is putting it mildly.

It's clear that to some, OWS is a new religion. Discussion is not wanted. Only blind faith.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. Why don't YOU enter the political process?

It's your idea, after all.

[hack89]

47. I did that a long time ago.

I am very active in my local party organization - I serve on the elections committee. I dedicate many hours getting local Democrats elected.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. They are already quite political

Oh wait, you understand politics just as running for office and all that? Comming...I am plugged to local occupations, and it s comming. I mean REGISTERING voters is quite political in the way you understand politics...or am I wrong?

[hack89]

78. I want to see how OWS plans to transition their goals and ideas to actual political results

If their plan is to stay on the outside and not involved themselves in the nitty gritty work of drafting and passing legislation then I have no time for them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Local tension

This is from a reporter, that be me, six months tops for you to see that. Hell, speaking of tension, a meeting with the progressive caucus and OWSers was cancelled yesterday. But it will happen, it's on a jobs bill for the 99%. Care to connect dots why the only media reporting this was Countdown though?

[Edweird]

44. Oh NOES111!!!1 Whatever will we do? Save us hack89!

Save us with your sage and obviously non-agenda driven advice! Tell us what to do!

[hack89]

48. Get OWS involved in the political process. Lets get some good legislation passed. nt

[Edweird]

52. You have it backwards. What you are seeing is the anger from the 'hope and change' bait and switch.

There was a mandate for change as evidenced by 2006 & 2008.

[hack89]

58. And from that you believe that Americans want to scrap our existing political system?

or do they simply want politicians to keep their word?

I question the OWS assumption that people demand a radical reorganization of American society - they are scared and want jobs and security. A decent improvement in the economy will take the wind out of OWS's sails in a heart beat. They have not tapped into some deep stream of discontent that they can use to their purpose.

[Harmony Blue]

65. It has to be both

You question the OWS assumption people want a radical reorganization of American society? Are you stuck in a 2006 time warp or something? Look at the earning power of middle class families compared to the top 1% as of today compared to the 1950's...yes a reorganization has happened the middle class have been sinking...

The dot com bubble gave a minor boost of an illusion to the middle class, so if you have some kind of romanticism that it could happen again soon you are making a bad assumption.

[hack89]

75. If that is what they want, they have a funny way of showing their support.

OWS is less than an afterthought in most of America - I don't see how America is turning to them to fix society.

RI is as blue a state as one can imagine - Occupy Providence is down to 100 people and getting smaller by the day. We as a state are dealing with a major fiscal crisis - OWS has been completely irrelevant to the entire process.

[marions ghost]

54. how quaint

so 2000's

[hack89]

56. How American. nt

[marions ghost]

96. the America that used to be...

once, or so it seemed

[hack89]

97. Not all of us give up so easily. nt

[fascisthunter]

99. neither does OWS and the people who are out there

what makes you think these individuals are not voters or pursuing political change from within. You have no idea...

[hack89]

102. I was answering a poster who thinks that the political process is "so 2000"

I have no doubt that many are voters or involved in the political process - but unless OWS gets its shit together they will be doing it as individuals or as members of existing groups.

[sabrina 1]

115. It's not OWS who needs to get their 'shit together'. They are not responsible for the

wasteful, brutal, murderous and illegal wars.

They are not responsible for the Economic Meltdown that crashed the economies of the world.

They are not responsible for the corruption of our political system by the Corporate Money that has undermined our democracy.

They are not responsible for the fact that War Criminals and Economic Criminals are immune to our laws.

They are not responsible for the fall-out of the massive corruption that has gone on for decades and gone unpunished. The loss of American jobs, the destruction of the Middle Class, the privatization and failure of our education system, our Health Care system etc. etc.

They are not responsible for the fact that 44, 000 Americans are dying each year, more than half a million since 9/11, because our corrupt, for-profit HC system cares more about the bottom line than about human life.

They are the victims of a system that has been so corrupted we are reduced to actually accepting that our only participation in it comes down to 'voting' .... for the 'lesser evil'. That's it! Just shut up and vote, 'for the lesser evil'.

But they ARE the American people who are finally, and a little late, saying 'no more, we will not stand for this anymore'.

Point me to anyone else who is planning on fixing this beyond repair broken system we live in? Broken by corruption and greed? And if you do, I will happily support them, whoever they are.

[hack89]

121. They have to get their shit together before they piss away the opportunity of a lifetime

they need to show that they can grow and get the American people behind them. So far they have not.

[sabrina 1]

132. They have and are growing every day. Are you serious? Less than three months ago they

were a few hundred people in ONE city. Now they are everywhere, all over the country and the world, and are growing each day. This week alone they were joined by many churches eg. And by people in the neighborhoods where they are stopping fore-closure, by people who now understand why they are here and are rounding up even more supporters for them. They are planning a huge convention for next summer with delegates in every state. This movement is not going away. In my neighborhood and family, people who originally ignored them as just another protest movement, are now getting involved themselves and that is the case in neighborhoods all over this country. The issues are too serious for people to ignore.

To deny the growth and popularity of this movement across the globe is simply futile. But to each their own I guess.

[Agony]

45. I'll stick with the squid...

[judesedit]

80. OWS is used to hearing negative bs like this, they will laugh.This is no small group.THIS IS THE 99%

And I, for one, am behind them all the way and will donate as often as I can. Thank you 99%ers. We can save this country if we don't let this type of propaganda infiltrate our movement. March on you patriots! Don't let them stop us for one moment.

[LanternWaste]

83. "The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

"The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

Mark Twain's response to his popular, mainstream critics who believed his writing lacked a clear, cohesive direction. Most of us are currently aware of his name rather than those of his critics.

[hack89]

87. The reports of their success have been greatly exaggerated.

the need to move away from political theater and find a way to directly influence people's lives.

[LanternWaste]

93. We see what our biases direct us to see.

We see what our biases direct us to see.

[hack89]

94. Does that apply equally to you? nt

[fascisthunter]

100. indisputable

[Hissyspit]

119. No they haven't.

If OWS completely ends today, the reports of their successes will not have been greatly exaggerated.

[Zorra]

118. If Occupy were to fail, all hope for a better future would be gone forever.

Occupy is our last hope, if we lose, we will rapidly continue to regress into a resistance proof feudal plutarchy.

[hack89]

124. Then they need to convince the public that they can actually bring about change

so far they have raised more questions than provided answers. They failed in some fundamental way to connect with the average American and they don't seem to want to accept that and change their methods. Shutting down ports is the perfect example - as my neighbor so succinctly puts it "what's all that shit about?". People want jobs - they don't want American society torn down and completely reordered - the want jobs and the security that comes with it.

[Bonobo]

120. Obvious concern-bots are obvious. nt

[Jello Biafra]

127. Now that NDAA will not be vetoed....

anyone can call an occupier Al Qaida and imprison them indefinitely...people need to wake up that we live in a police state and your rights that you used to have, are no longer existent. You will need hundreds of thousands to make an impact statement to get things turned around.

Problem here is that people are not mad enough yet. They can still get food and water and fuel...and Dancing with the Stars. Unemployment is high, but not massive yet. When TSHTF, like it did in Egypt, it will look like Egypt here, but not until then.

[dmosh42]

129. It will be back in the Spring, bigger and meaner!

[hack89]

130. Hard to imagine it being able to complete with a Presidential election.

they will make some noise but will they be able to influence either the election or the electorate. The more likely scenario is the President co-opting their goals and language to get re-elected.

[dmosh42]

131. All the more reason for them to be active!

I do remember in 1968, the Viet war was the main focus, and the Dems had been still focused on "winning", and resisted the efforts of the demonstrators. It cost them the election, as Nixon quickly promised to end that war. This will still be about economic injustice, and lack of representation, which the both parties are still ignoring, and could be fatal to one of them, or at least to many elected members of our corrupt Congress. Obama will look to be the 'lesser of two evils', and probably will win.