If I was thinking about college right now, and was finishing high school,

[MineralMan]

I'd be pretty damned worried. Now, if I was going to study a technical field where jobs are plentiful and pay very well to start, I'd relax a little and not think about student loan debt too much. Once I graduated, I could keep living low on the food chain and pay that stuff off in five years and then get on with my life.

If, instead, I was going to graduate with a BA in English, Art, Music, History, Social Work, Education, or some other humanities degree, I'd be sweating bullets. I'd be looking for scholarship money and grants, heading to a community college for a couple of years, choosing a public college close enough to live at home, and trying to figure out how to make it out with as little debt as possible. Because the pay sucks, jobs can be scarce, and who knows when those student loans would be paid off.

Or, I might switch horses altogether and try to find an apprenticeship program in some skilled trade that I found interesting. It's hard to find younger, trained HVAC techs, plumbers, electricians, welders, etc. So, the jobs are there, they pay well, and the time and cost to learn the trade won't put a person in debt for 20 years.

What I wouldn't do would be to wait for free college to happen or count on some sort of loan forgiveness down the road. I also wouldn't pay the equivalent of a house for an education that led to a low-paying job, no matter how rewarding that job was in other ways.

Part of my privilege was to have lived in a time when state colleges and universities were subsidized by taxpayers and had no tuition. I did nothing to earn that privilege. Then, I spent four years in the USAF, and had the GI Bill, which covered a lot of the costs of my BA and MA in English. That degree didn't guarantee me anything, and I've done all sort of jobs during my working life. The degrees were essentially useless in any of my careers.

Right now, the cost of higher education is way out of reach for many people, and the only way to get through it is to go deep into debt, unless you happen to have parents who can foot the bills. In many careers, the financial rewards are too low to justify that kind of debt. It sucks. Will something be done by the next wave of politicians? Maybe. Maybe not.

I'm sorry things are that way. I'll vote to try to help. But, think long and hard before committing to a lifetime of debt with no job in the offing that will help you get rid of that debt.

[rzemanfl]

1. My undergraduate tuition was $150 a semester when I started and had gone up to

Last edited Tue May 14, 2019, 05:55 PM - Edit history (1)

$175 by the time I graduated three years later.

[MineralMan]

3. Yes. At California state universities, tuition was $0, although there were some

fees each semester. Something between $100 and $200. We were very fortunate to have lived in those times.

As a society, we've thrown that all away, and more's the pity. That was a really, really stupid move.

[Kaleva]

2. I'd join the military and get the Post-9/11 GI Bill to pay for future college.

[MineralMan]

5. That is an option. You can also study while in the military, too.

And, if you end up in a technical job, you'll get a pantload of training you can take with you later. It's not for everyone, though. I was very lucky to have had the job I had while in the USAF during the Vietnam Era. Lots of people did not have opportunities like I had. Luck of the draw, I guess.

But a term of service will help a lot in defraying college costs, and you can get a couple of years of college in while serving, in most cases.

[Blue_true]

44. I have a nephew that graduated high school. I wanted to go to college, but chose the Army

instead. A senior officer took to mentoring him and convinced him to go to officer candidate school. It is better if kids that want to go to college consider ROTC, when they graduate, they get an officer's commission. My nephew didn't think through that and by the time I found out, he was out of high school and enlisted in the Army, look like things will work out for him though, he got a lot of non combat postings and is now in OCS, probably because a senior officer pulled strings for him, but unfortunately that is how life works sometime. My nephew and his wife want to see the world, so he will be open to posts around the world once he is through OCS. I wish there were non ROTC college options for kids, but what we have now is what we have, we can and should work to change that but reality is what it is.

Your point on trade school is right on. A kid who wants to study English in college and become a writer can study for an electrician's license at the local CC and still take English classes. When done he or she can write without starving while the manuscript rejections pile up.

[msongs]

4. dont buy a 2019 car, cancel all 12 of your streaming services, bypass the latest iphone

when the one you have is only a week old lol

[MineralMan]

6. Well, that has always been true, although were fewer temptations

back in the late 60s and early 70s. Hell, I didn't have a car that cost me more than $100 until about 1980, and that one only cost $500. Frugal living will help, but it's hard to do these days. 10-15 year old cars are way more expensive, proportionally, than they were then, and less reliable. If something breaks, it's going to cost you at least $500-1000 to fix it. You can't work on recent cars effectively yourself any longer, either.

But, you're right. Doing without some stuff is a tried and true way to be able to pay off student loans. It's hard to resist all the temptations, though.

[kcr]

25. clueless

[mahina]

26. Perspective varies based on where you stand.

Anybody who thinks young people have it easy now, well, we disagree.

[Celerity]

39. +10000

[a la izquierda]

7. ...

Thanks for continuing the disparagement of humanities degrees. We definitely don’t have enough conservative enemies, so it’s *super* to have Democrat’s jump on the bandwagon.
http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20190401-why-worthless-humanities-degrees-may-set-you-up-for-life

[MineralMan]

9. I have a degree in the humanities.

It has served me well, although it had nothing to do with any of the jobs I've held. Mostly, I've been self-employed all my life. Nobody has ever asked to see my diplomas.

But, here's the thing: A bachelor's degree in any of the humanities is not going to mean a great job at first. It's just not. Later, your communications skills and broad-based knowledge will help you a great deal, but at the entry level, not so much. Every year you have to defer on your student debt or pay interest-only, you'll see the principal keep rising. To avoid an increasing debt load, you need a well-paying job from the start, and that BA isn't going to help you all that much.

[LisaM]

11. I never EXPECTED a great job with my English degree.

While of course I think that college is wildly overpriced, and I heartily agree that we should subsidize it more (and that employers should also hire good people and train them, instead of expecting them to come ready to do it all), even back when I graduated in the 80s, I did not think of a college education as something to be monetized for profit (and I did have student loans that were a pain to pay back and took me many years to do so, and I had a pretty impoverished lifestyle during those years).

But I gained an education, which was the whole reason I went to college in the first place. It's paid off over the long haul. It's helped with my critical thinking, given me a long view on life (especially my own) and it taught me to value people who were intelligent and well read and who shared my interests and were good company over people who felt they needed to make six figures right out of the box.

I think the lean years were good for me, too. I can relate to people who don't get to own houses (I still don't) and a new car every few years, and I value the things I've ultimately been able to earn.

[Buckeyeblue]

21. Businesses need people with liberal art degrees

We solve problems and often come creative solutions. Business majors are good at making colorful power point presentations with minimal content but are fun to look at.

[LisaM]

22. That too! :)

I don't think that the business mindset fosters creativity - real creativity - and I think that having people with liberal arts degrees can add a lot to an organization. I think it's true with STEM also - doers and thinkers should work together.

[Buckeyeblue]

24. Yes. And we are good at taking complicated processes and breaking them down so others can understand

I'm often brought into meetings to just explain things.

[pnwmom]

29. The entry level job pay isn't the most important thing -- but the humanities majors in my family

have done fine, even at that.

And there are other ways to avoid an "ever increasing debt load." Some people opt to do their first two years in community college so they save money at the outset. Others save money by living with their parents for a few years after graduation, and paying off as much debt as they can. A student with the average amount of debt these days -- $38K -- could pay it all off in a couple years, if their parents let them move back in.

We had a new college-graduate living with us for a couple years, and his girlfriend, too, and when they left us they were debt-free.

[SoCalDem]

8. I would recommend a few possible jobs

plumber
electrician
heating/ac

In the last 2 years, I have spent thousands to these three occupations. They are not glamorous jobs, but these jobs are nearly impossible to outsource, and when you show up to perform the service, you are welcomed with open arms and your work performed well, makes the customer so grateful. If you are exceptionally good at it and charge fairly, you will get free advertising from your customers too.

It's kind of sad to think that our society has stepped back to trade-work for job security, but it's kind of where we are right now.

[MineralMan]

10. Yes. I mentioned those trades specifically.

Welding is another good one, although it's not as lucrative in some parts of the country.

[Kaleva]

12. Welders are in high demand where I live in Upper Michigan

And if it's one's cup of tea, there's a great demand for truck drivers.

[tinrobot]

13. Our daughter got a $13,000 scholarship... and a $5,000 tax bill because it is now "income"

We're fortunate that we can help cover it, but I couldn't imagine a starving student getting a tax bill like this. Our friend's son, who is in a graduate program, got a $12,000 tax bill on his scholarship. He may have to take out loans to finish.

It's ridiculous how many barriers there are to education in this country. We're dumbing ourselves down - on purpose.

[exboyfil]

31. Scholarship for tuition and fees is generally not taxable

Room and board is though. What circumstance leads to $13K in income?

[tinrobot]

36. Depends on how the scholarships are given out and to whom.

Here's an article that goes over the broad points:

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2019/02/14/new-tax-plan-to-hurt-low-income-students/

[keithbvadu2]

14. Nurse.... Good pay. Can't outsource the job.

Nurse.... Good pay. Can't outsource the job.

[exboyfil]

32. Live at home and drive dads car

It is a great deal. My daughter loves being a nurse. Don't see her much since she works 3rd shift. Love having her around though.

[NightWatcher]

15. If I were 18 again these days, I'd leave, go to Holland, study chocolate making...

I wouldn't hang around the States.

[ooky]

23. I think I might do that as well.

Not the chocolate making, but before I retired I used to go to the Netherlands periodically on business. I would routinely fly into Amsterdam, catch the train out of the lower level of Schiphol airport, and enjoy a ride in first class over to Nijmegen. I always thought it was nice there and would make a great place to live if it ever got to the point I needed a change of scenery.

[keithbvadu2]

16. Sometimes employers are not so concerned about the type of degree but are more impressed that you go

Sometimes employers are not so concerned about the type of degree but are more impressed that you got one... You followed through and completed the task.

[jmowreader]

20. There's a more sinister reason

Employers also know that if you have $100,000 worth of debt hanging over your head that you can't discharge in bankruptcy, you'll be less likely to say "fuck you, I quit" if things aren't quite to your liking.

[Celerity]

40. +1

[pnwmom]

17. Humanities majors actually do better than undergrad business majors job-wise.

Communication skills and people-skills are still valued.

I have three young family members who got undergraduate degrees in communications, psychology, and English -- two of them, with courses in web design along the way -- who have excellent jobs.

The psychology major is in sales, and loves it. The communications major went on to get a one-year Masters in web design. Computer people who can write are in high demand. The English major went to law school.

But that's just anecdotal. Here are some statistics.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereknewton/2018/05/31/its-not-liberal-arts-and-literature-majors-who-are-most-underemployed/#534d2e2e11de

With a five-year 31% underemployment rate according to Burning Glass, and a massive 601,092 degrees passed out in 2016, business and related majors produced a staggering 186,339 people with a degree and no corresponding college-level job. Counting the initial underemployment rate for business and related majors of 47%, a whopping 282,513 were underemployed in 2016.

The “Health Professions” data is head-scratching since we know that in 2015, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics predicted, “Healthcare support occupations and healthcare practitioners and technical occupations are projected to be the two fastest-growing occupational groups, adding a combined 2.3 million jobs, about 1 in 4 new jobs” by 2024. But according to the report, “Health Professions and Related Programs” majors were second worst, leaving 154,915 with degrees but without good jobs after five years. Education and Psychology were third and fourth with 99,597 and 61,647 graduates without good jobs respectively.

If you believe the Burning Glass data, those four majors alone – business, health professionals, education, and psychology – put more than half a million people in the underemployed camp. And given that the 21 selected majors in the Burning Glass report totaled 904,000 underemployed graduates after five years, just those four majors accounted for more than half (56%) of the underemployed in the study.

It’s also interesting that although it’s a popular target of those who insist that a college education should connect to a good job, majors in “Liberal Arts and Sciences, General Studies, and Humanities” left a scant 18,824 underemployed grads after five years. “English Language and Literature/Letters” had just 16,422 similarly underemployed. And the major with the fewest underemployed graduates, according to the report, was “Foreign Languages, Literature, and Linguistics.”

In other words, for every cliché of a barista or bartender with a liberal arts degree, there were ten with a degree in business.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

28. People with business degrees are a dime a dozen these days,

because students have been suckered into believing that's the only degree that will get them a high-paying management job - and it's just not true. And it's a very narrow course of study that won't do much to get people to think - only how to monetize everything.

[exboyfil]

33. Way too many people are getting a general business degree

Accounting, finance, and some of the quant based are good majors for a first job. Some of the newer ones like logistics and supply management are also good. There are regional gluts for nursing, but it is a great major around here. My older daughter got an engineering degree, and my younger daughter got a nursing degree. Both are doing very well.

[mcar]

18. DS graduated with an English degree in 2009

Was able to parlay the contacts he made at the prestigious private liberal arts college he got a scholarship to to get a great internship, then steadily better jobs in PR. He has an extremely good job now, travels the world and is getting great experience.

I am fully aware he is one of the lucky ones.

[Hortensis]

19. Vote. It wasn't this way before, never needed to be

this way, and shouldn't be this way in future.

I now firmly believe all this is a manifestation of increasing fascistic, anti-education thinking on the right. Such as that people whose employers will not require understanding of American history or biology from them should be discouraged from unnecessary education.

The trend of all this has been to choke off education for the purpose of self development and realization, instead of just for developing job skills. And the thinking is that education of most people for social mobility and advancement is both socially undesirable and a waste of money since there are only so many positions available at upper levels and most of those can be filled by those born to them. That the liberal "over-educating" that dominated for decades is an enormous waste of money and that government should not invest in worthless learning.

Take a look at Republican-controlled government' general decisions regarding education over the past 30 years and find one trend to contradict that picture.

I also believe that if enough people realize what their roles are considered to be and respond as they of course will, we'll do a big 180 on all this. And pronto. Our grandparents did it before in a dangerous time of rising fascism and did a bang-up job of it too. That reaction to fascistic thinking is clearly starting to happen now, but the trick is stopping the transition to fascistic government before it's way too late for anything approaching "pronto."

[pnwmom]

30. I agree. It's the R's who don't want humanities majors, because people in those majors

think about things they don't want us to think about!

[Hortensis]

37. Yes. Plain and simple. And evil.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

27. My B.A. degree is in music. Never regretted it for a minute

even though I was never quite good enough to get anywhere as a professional musician. I went into other lines of work (a couple of different careers) but I never found the music degree to be a hindrance in getting work in unrelated fields. Most employers are interested more in whether you have enough discipline to get through college with decent grades, regardless of your major, than whether you went to college to get a credential for a particular job but nothing more. College shouldn't be viewed as a vocational school, but as a way to learn about the world.

[Backseat Driver]

34. I'd be very leery of any career being touted by the government

as a hot field. It may be the next "career" being sent away or destined for lower income expectations. Long ago in a galaxy far away, medical coding was touted as a gateway to a career that promised a future. An associate degree in that field got me what Patty shot at because all the follow on BS degree programs left my state, family services trained the welfare folks for free while I paid tuition and graduated debt free. They then paid employers to hire the welfare-trained. So much for a level playing field--guess who they hired -- not me! Household income, back then, made some married women ineligible for tuition assistance programs nor could they stand alone for credit consideration. It was a decade before any schools developed on-line courses and only one college in the whole state added a campus program, long after I gave up both my credentials and hopes of finishing a degree. I also found that my community college classes would not transfer. Starting all over again wasn't an option at the escalated tuition costs of the four-year college.

[pnwmom]

35. I'm afraid that your experience isn't uncommon.

I hope that if you ever want to go back to school that you'll find a way.

[BumRushDaShow]

38. Can you clarify this

family services trained the welfare folks for free while I paid tuition and graduated debt free. They then paid employers to hire the welfare-trained. So much for a level playing field--guess who they hired -- not me!

Who are the "welfare folks" or might I speculate?

[Backseat Driver]

42. I have no beef with those who for whatever reason did not have jobs nor education. That's just good

use of tax dollars for creating a skilled workforce. I hope you agree on that point however we define my words. I do object to then using tax dollars to "sweeten the hiring pot" over those without student loan debt (i.e., not using tax dollars and/or gaming the system in other social maneuvers), working w/W-2 status and sacrificing to pay out-of-pocket to make their life and their family's better and often more stable during other challenges, through education. IMO, not much better than the rich bribing Admissions Committee members. Did that clarify? I meant no disparagement, if that's what jumped into your mind.

[BumRushDaShow]

43. I'm still not getting what you are trying to say

You will always have hucksters who will "game the system". But your post essentially lumped low-income people into a ridiculous category of "welfare folks", which is a RW talking point (and keep in mind that "welfare" was pretty much drastically changed back in the '90s so you basically only have programs like TANF that are about all that is left outside of SNAP & Medicaid and any housing subsidies that low-income people are able to get. A refresher - https://www.thebalance.com/welfare-programs-definition-and-list-3305759).

Due to bigoted "public policies" since the founding of this country, we have had "tax dollars" essentially diverted away from certain communities, which were left to rot (both in the infrastructure and the schools and other facilities) - and handed over to others to "benefit", and pass that on to their children and grandchildren while those left behind suffered. And at some point, that cycle has to be broken. So when the push of finally providing equal access to those tax dollars starts happening for those whose ancestors never had that opportunity (going back generations) then naturally the whining starts about someone "taking from" those who had previously always benefited, from day one, in fact assuming they did so because somehow they were special and the others were inferior.

[Celerity]

41. the cost of US tertiary education is becoming extortionate, ruinous

The cost of uni has just exploded the last 20 years or so. Especially out of state tuition at public schools, but even instate is still crazy high (see below).

some examples

https://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/use-the-data

these are PER YEAR costs

Alaska — University of Alaska, Anchorage
Tuition, room, board, and other costs, 2016-17: $37,304

Michigan — University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
Tuition, room, board, and other costs, 2016-17: $59,784

Delaware — University of Delaware
Tuition, room, board, and other costs, 2016-17: $46,618

Arizona — University of Arizona
Tuition, room, board, and other costs, 2016-17: $50,367

North Dakota — North Dakota State University
Tuition, room, board, and other costs, 2016-17: $32,227

Hawaii — University of Hawaii at Manoa
Tuition, room, board, and other costs, 2016-17: $50,645


The AVERAGE cost for 4 years IN-STATE PUBLIC tuition, fees and room/board has now passed 100,000 USD. In the top 5 most expensive states (NH, VT, PA, NJ, and IL) it is already over 125,000 USD.

That is all just for undergrad. And that is public schools. The top private schools are over 300,000 USD for 4 years. Granted, scholarships, grants, etc can lower a lot of those, but still it is outrageously expensive.


When Biden graduated university, the average cost in the US for public tuition and was 256 USD per year. For the 1990-91 school year, the national average for tuition and fees at a four year public university were still only 1888 USD.


Today, total ONE YEAR costs for a 4-year public college are over $25,000 per year. It is 51,000 per year on AVERAGE for all private schools, and over 80,000 per year for the most expensive. Not only that, but real, inflation-adjusted incomes have been fairly stagnant since the 1970's so there is even less to pay off that massive debt with.

At current rates of increase it will cost close to 200,000 USD, all costs included, for the average 4 year public uni degree (instate) by 2030, 2032 or so. Over 400,000 USD for a 4 year private degree, and close to 2/3rds of a million USD for the top private schools' bachelors. Over 1.5 million dollars for a top private PhD (assuming 10 total years, 4 for the bachelors, 2 for the masters, 4 more for the PhD).

It is madness what is going on. We are being robbed blind, debt-enslaved for life, even much older people>> ( Seniors owe billions in student loan debt: "This will follow me to the grave". )

Starting in 2013, over 50% of ALL colleges had more than half of all students in default at least once on their student loan debts.

As of summer 2018, Americans owed over $1.56 trillion (well over 1.6 trillion now, as that was a year ago) in student loan debt, spread out amongst about 45 million borrowers. That’s about $521 billion more than the total of all U.S. credit card debt.

That is unsustainable.