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Mon Apr 22, 2019, 04:33 PM

It's time to begin discussion of amending the Constitution - To remove impeachment from it

I don't think the framers of the Constitution envisioned the partisan risk that could come with wielding impeachment as a weapon.

To see that the bar of "high crimes and misdemeanors" change simply because of the parties in Congress and who is in the White House change, I don't think that is what the serious charge of impeachment is supposed to be about.

Nothing will get Trump impeached today, what if years from now, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is president, what will be the bar? Will it be in the words of Senator Lindsey Graham in 1999, in his own words that "impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office", do you want to wait for President Ocasio-Cortez's mere presence in the White House to be enough to become worthy of impeachment, to "cleanse" her from the office?

The law should not be a partisan game, remove impeachment from the Constitution if we're not going to use it for Trump and have lawmakers who will be more than willing to use it for a president who will do much less than he has already done.

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Reply It's time to begin discussion of amending the Constitution - To remove impeachment from it (Original post)
ck4829 Apr 2019 OP
unblock Apr 2019 #1
Takket Apr 2019 #3
ck4829 Apr 2019 #4
AncientGeezer Apr 2019 #2
ck4829 Apr 2019 #5
onenote Apr 2019 #6
ck4829 Apr 2019 #7
onenote Apr 2019 #8
ck4829 Apr 2019 #9
onenote Apr 2019 #17
ck4829 Apr 2019 #18
ck4829 Apr 2019 #13
FiveGoodMen Apr 2019 #10
ck4829 Apr 2019 #11
ck4829 Apr 2019 #15
Codeine Apr 2019 #12
ck4829 Apr 2019 #14
MineralMan Apr 2019 #16
qdouble Apr 2019 #19
fescuerescue Apr 2019 #20

Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 04:46 PM

1. i agree it's broken, but we do need some check on a tyrannical president.

so there has to be some mechanism to remove a horrible president, whether it's via impeachment or no confidence or recall or whatever.

there has to be some mechanism.


something that would have helped in this case would be a genuine "independent counsel", rather than a "special counsel", i.e., a counsel that could investigate a sitting president and bring charges without being in the chain of command under the president.

unfortunately, republicans corrupted this by investigating bill clinton practically his entire presidency and it was done away with. then donald fraud comes along and takes full advantage of his ability to interfere....

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Response to unblock (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 04:57 PM

3. The mechanism would be Mueller indicting and the FBI arresting

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Response to unblock (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 04:57 PM

4. My problem with this is that we don't have that check now though

If it's a check if and only if the House and the Senate are one party and the White House is another party, then it's not much of a check to begin with, you know?

Also, if the tables turn then it can be used as a petty tool to keep a 'radical' President in line (As in one who genuinely puts people first as opposed to some militaristic and consumerist society), then that is also tyranny by the House and Senate, I don't want tyranny by one man in the White House, nor do I want one that is a razor-thin majority in the House and 67 Senators.

Voting will matter a lot much more if the Constitution was amended to remove impeachment... You might want to think twice about voting for the joke candidate or for the guy who doesn't want to put his info on the table if we're going to be stuck with that person as president.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 04:55 PM

2. Got a better chance of being hit by lightning

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 04:58 PM

5. All starts with words, put it out there. Ask why

Is it because of what I mentioned in the OP, that impeachment has become a partisan game rather than about the rule of law?

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 04:58 PM

6. Really? I can't think of anything less worthy of discussion.

Even discussing the flight of pigs would make more sense.

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Response to onenote (Reply #6)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 05:02 PM

7. Yet here we are discussing "QAnon", anti-vaxxer nonsense, school shootings being staged, etc.

If those things can enter the marketplace of ideas, why not this?

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 05:11 PM

8. Because, among many reasons, those things don't require a constitutional amendment?

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Response to onenote (Reply #8)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 05:14 PM

9. We can't amend the Constitution anymore?

How did we get all those amendments after the tenth one? Even those original ten?

Somebody needs to inform all those lawmakers there's a big mistake with the Constitution with all those extra amendments.

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 10:09 PM

17. Not for something as absurd as repealing the impeachment clause.

We don't have declared wars anymore, so I guess we should also repeal the provision requiring Congress to declare war. And the "regulated" militia language and the prohibition against "cruel and unusual" punishment have very little meaning, so let's get rid of them too, I suppose.

By the way, there have been 18 impeachments in US history, resulting in 7 convictions, 7 acquittals, and 4 resignations (and that's not counting Nixon or anyone else that might have resigned before getting impeached). There was a 50 year gap with no impeachments from 1936 to 1986. Since 1986, there have been 6 impeachments resulting in 5 resignations or convictions.

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Response to onenote (Reply #17)

Tue Apr 23, 2019, 02:48 AM

18. It's absurd. Equally absurd, we will have a Democratic potus again someday and all of the sudden...

The bar for impeachment will become a lot lower.

I just don't get why we're handicapping ourselves here, that is patently ridiculous to me.

What's the opposite of absurd? Whatever it is... it doesn't exist in our government, in our media, with the voters, and on and on. We need to recognize that fact, and roll with that fact, or get rolled over by it.

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Response to onenote (Reply #8)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 05:36 PM

13. And I'm genuinely curious, what are some other reasons of those "many reasons"?

We've got ignorance, unhelpfulness, aggression, errors, conspiracy theories, bigotry, and more out there in this marketplace of ideas.

And here's something that could really increase the value of every vote and would also patch a critical hole in how the Constitution interacts with the rule of law and how it is enforced... and we shouldn't even talk about it. Why?

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 05:29 PM

10. Replace it with specific crimes that can get a sitting president thrown in jail.

Make sure that the parties have nothing to do with enforcing them.

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 05:31 PM

11. That could work. I still suggest start with "Remove it" and see what media and politicians

will talk it down to.

I'm willing to compromise.

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 06:03 PM

15. I'm also willing to have a "Trump Bar" for future presidents

"Does it exceed what Trump has done? Does it exceed the Trump Bar?"

If not, then the actions are not worthy of impeachment.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 05:34 PM

12. That's the logic of a ten year old.

“Can I go ride my skateboard?”

“No sweetie, it’s almost dinner time and then you need to pick up your room and start your shower.”

“WHY DO I EVEN HAVE A SKATEBOARD THEN?! I SHOULD THROW IT AWAY!”

Simply because partisan rancor has made impeachment unfeasible at this time doesn’t mean that we just abandon the entire concept in a fit of childish pique.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 05:43 PM

14. At least that's logic

What we're dealing with is more like:

“Can I go ride my skateboard?”

“No sweetie, here are the keys to my car and here's a loaded grenade launcher for you to play with. Have fun!”

And then this is the conversation to a different child (You know, how it could look post-2020 election):

“Can I go ride my skateboard?”

“No you mistake, get in the snake pit and if I feel like it, I'll throw you scraps tonight.”

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:03 PM

16. How many U.S. Presidents have been impeached and removed?

Think about it.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Tue Apr 23, 2019, 03:26 AM

19. The president controls the department of justice.

Without the possibility of impeachment, you give the president a full power of a tyrant. The House and Senate are voted in by the American people... if a president is impeached and convicted unjustly, the incumbents in Congress would suffer for it. There's absolutely no reason to remove it from the constitution as it's a safe guard.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Tue Apr 23, 2019, 07:26 AM

20. Well that would be something.

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