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Segami

(14,923 posts)
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 02:31 PM Aug 2012

NYT: Bain’s TAX “DODGING” Is "NOT LEGAL," “Subject To Serious I.R.S. Challenge”

Today’s NYT piece provides us with a deeper dive about complex U.S. offshore tax law(s), and how those laws apply to the Romney family’s primary investments in Bain Capital. Specifically, the Times report tells us that these questionable an/or illegal tax strategies directly apply to “large parts of his [Mitt Romney’s] personal fortune.” The story includes quite unminced commentary from tax law professors--Victor Fleischer at the University of Colorado and Gregg D. Polsky at the University of North Carolina School of Law--who indicate that Bain Capital’s “aggressive” tax strategies are illegal and/or “subject to serious I.R.S. challenge,” respectively.



Getting slightly granular here, and just so we’re clear, we’re talking about “questionable” or illegal strategies (depending upon whose opinions you follow) with regard to the “reclassification” of more than $1 billion in payments to Bain Capital partners. So here are the links and excerpts from the NYT and from the experts, themselves, telling us in plain English that, when it comes to the one percent’s tax avoidance (legal) and/or evasion (illegal) strategies, “This is how they do it.”



By NICHOLAS CONFESSORE, FLOYD NORRIS and JULIE CRESWELL

New York Times

August 24, 2012

…Bain private equity funds in which the Romney family’s trusts are invested appear to have used an aggressive tax approach, which some tax lawyers believe is not legal, to save Bain partners more than $200 million in income taxes and more than $20 million in Medicare taxes.

Annual reports for four Bain Capital funds indicate that the funds converted $1.05 billion in accumulated fees that otherwise would have been ordinary income for Bain partners into capital gains, which are taxed at a much lower rate.

Although some tax experts have criticized the approach, the Internal Revenue Service is not known to have challenged any such arrangements.

In a blog post Thursday, Victor Fleischer, a law professor at the University of Colorado, said that there was some disagreement among lawyers, but that he believed: “If challenged in court, Bain would lose. The Bain partners, in my opinion, misreported their income if they reported these converted fees as capital gain instead of ordinary income…”


…In an article that appeared in the journal Tax Notes in 2009, Gregg D. Polsky, a tax law professor at the University of North Carolina School of Law, called the tax strategy “extremely aggressive” and said it was “subject to serious challenge by the I.R.S…”


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/us/politics/documents-show-details-on-romney-family-trusts.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all





The article continues on to inform us that the just-released documents: “…showed that some of the funds owned equity swaps, which have been used to avoid taxes that would otherwise be owed on dividends paid by American companies to foreign-based investors, like funds based in the Caymans.” The intent here, according to the article: “The major purpose of such ‘swaps,’ a Senate committee report stated in 2008, ‘is to enable non-U.S. persons to dodge payment of U.S. taxes on U.S. stock dividends.’”

Bain Capital, a group of artful dodgers, indeed.




http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/24/1123694/-NYT-Bain-s-tax-dodging-is-illegal-subject-to-serious-I-R-S-challenge
42 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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NYT: Bain’s TAX “DODGING” Is "NOT LEGAL," “Subject To Serious I.R.S. Challenge” (Original Post) Segami Aug 2012 OP
Haven't read, but good journalists wrote this, elleng Aug 2012 #1
There was a time in distant antiquity (i.e. when I was young) Jackpine Radical Aug 2012 #6
You and me both, Jackpine, elleng Aug 2012 #16
We're finally getting to the meat of this... CabCurious Aug 2012 #35
K&R myrna minx Aug 2012 #2
wouldn't that be the shitz; to win the election due to felony arrest 2pooped2pop Aug 2012 #3
Which might include Queen Ann, the 5 boys and poor Rafalca. Segami Aug 2012 #5
that would be so cool. Cept poor Rafalca. 2pooped2pop Aug 2012 #8
She is fortunate to apparently have a very mild case of MS SoCalDem Aug 2012 #30
A beautiful thought... RT_Fanatic Aug 2012 #13
If Romney wins, another felon, Madoff should run next. firehorse Aug 2012 #20
There are gonna be some angry Bain partners C_U_L8R Aug 2012 #4
Go after the small fish and cut a deal for the big tunas. Segami Aug 2012 #7
Would the IRS dare during the election? get the red out Aug 2012 #9
It would definitely be painted as a partisan witch hunt by every republican. Segami Aug 2012 #11
As our former veep once said.. SoCalDem Aug 2012 #31
Can a private citizen bring suit on the grounds we are all harmed by tax dodging? hedgehog Aug 2012 #10
Taxpayer standing is either nonexistent or very limited ArcticFox Aug 2012 #12
The IRS should at least make an official statement on this, whether it is legal or illegal and that cbdo2007 Aug 2012 #14
Thats why Mittens is trying to change the subject Iliyah Aug 2012 #15
Yep. His & the 1%'s finances, if not illegal, are at minimum very likely ENCUMBERED by the details patrice Aug 2012 #34
Ooh, it would be so much fun to see Mitt Romney in handcuffs, perp-walked to a police car. tclambert Aug 2012 #17
They're right about tax avoidance schemes not being illegal until ruled so by the IRS. randome Aug 2012 #18
nothing will be done - no one will care like outing a cia agent keeping a lid on irans nukes, leftyohiolib Aug 2012 #19
Too big to jail... Hubert Flottz Aug 2012 #21
Maybe that's why Mitten's been so desperate to win the presidency DippyDem Aug 2012 #22
Romney/Ryan are for MONEY for themselves and their supporters , not for the Good of America riverbendviewgal Aug 2012 #23
I agree. It's not so much that he's done anything illegal (I'm sure he has the best tax lawyers gateley Aug 2012 #39
Ruh-roh. zonkers Aug 2012 #24
Why don't we staff up the IRS to audit all of the 1 million and more a year b/c everyone Dustlawyer Aug 2012 #25
The President should act. Conium Aug 2012 #26
There's some stuff that has to go down in some very private board-rooms first. patrice Aug 2012 #38
We don't know if they really cheated or broke any laws -- that's to be determined. gateley Aug 2012 #40
I think the REASON he's running is to get more and better tax dodges!!. . . n/t annabanana Aug 2012 #27
The feces are rapidly nearing hifiguy Aug 2012 #28
1+ & there are many varieties of germs in it. The devil IS in these details, ergo Romney will sell patrice Aug 2012 #36
Bane Capital: A Group Of Immoral Criminals Dont call me Shirley Aug 2012 #29
Privileged Character Conium Aug 2012 #32
Do we want someone involved in this stuff to make important decisions about our financial future as patrice Aug 2012 #33
any business arrangement that doesn't have a legitimate function except to avoid paying taxes is Bill USA Aug 2012 #37
To clarify: when it comes to tax strategies, "aggressive" means "probably illegal." reformist2 Aug 2012 #41
Romney if he wins, would pardon himself and all his friends BootinUp Aug 2012 #42

elleng

(131,370 posts)
1. Haven't read, but good journalists wrote this,
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 02:40 PM
Aug 2012

Norris + Confessore in particular. (Not familiar with Creswell.)

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
6. There was a time in distant antiquity (i.e. when I was young)
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 02:53 PM
Aug 2012

when you wouldn't think to make a comment like that about a NYT article because the competence of the reporters was beyond question.

I agree--an excellent article.

 

2pooped2pop

(5,420 posts)
3. wouldn't that be the shitz; to win the election due to felony arrest
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 02:49 PM
Aug 2012

of the opposing runner? lol

History may be made here.

 

2pooped2pop

(5,420 posts)
8. that would be so cool. Cept poor Rafalca.
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 02:57 PM
Aug 2012

I would think just being Ann's horse is enough of a burden to bear.

Did you see her on the Jet-ski? (Ann, not Rafalca) I mean, more power to her but with her condition, wouldn't that be darn near impossibly hard to do?

SoCalDem

(103,856 posts)
30. She is fortunate to apparently have a very mild case of MS
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:59 PM
Aug 2012

and she also apparently is NOT taking meds for it.. Perhaps it will progress in time, but for now, she seems to be quite lucky.

Of course, for political purposes, it's always "helpful" to be triumphant over some dreaded illness or mishap, so of course they magnify it.

It's like saying you have a bone fracture that required immediate medical attention..

Is it a broken toe from a bed leg, that is taped up & you limp a few days... or is it a double compound fracture of the tib-fib which requires surgery & extensive physical therapy?

Both are fractures..

C_U_L8R

(45,035 posts)
4. There are gonna be some angry Bain partners
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 02:50 PM
Aug 2012

blaming Mitt for attracting so much attention to their schemes.

And there are gonna be some crazy fines on these crooks.

First rule of being a gangster - don't draw attention to yourself.
Gets 'em every time.

get the red out

(13,468 posts)
9. Would the IRS dare during the election?
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 03:05 PM
Aug 2012

Wouldn't they be afraid it would be laid out as a partisan witch hunt? Just asking, I hope they go after them.

 

Segami

(14,923 posts)
11. It would definitely be painted as a partisan witch hunt by every republican.
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 03:20 PM
Aug 2012

Having said that, the IRS could easily side-step delving into such a partisan hot potato and sight their focus on Bain Partners for possible tax breach felonies. Charging or arresting any Bain partner would be perceived as an indirect indictment of Romney.

cbdo2007

(9,213 posts)
14. The IRS should at least make an official statement on this, whether it is legal or illegal and that
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 03:49 PM
Aug 2012

they have looked into the issue.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
34. Yep. His & the 1%'s finances, if not illegal, are at minimum very likely ENCUMBERED by the details
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 05:31 PM
Aug 2012

of these investment strategies.

This is why they CAN'T "create" jobs now and perhaps ever. This is why they need TAX BREAKS to prop up their financial empires. Take a look at what LIBOR means, at least some of these 1%-ers are fucked and the ones who aren't fucked are going to be hurt by the ones who are.

tclambert

(11,087 posts)
17. Ooh, it would be so much fun to see Mitt Romney in handcuffs, perp-walked to a police car.
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:09 PM
Aug 2012

Won't happen, of course. Sigh. Maybe after he loses the election. If he wins, he will just pardon himself.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
18. They're right about tax avoidance schemes not being illegal until ruled so by the IRS.
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:15 PM
Aug 2012

That's why I see it as pointless to go directly to corporations and the uber-rich to think we can somehow shame them into behaving better.

The loopholes are there because legislation was passed to put them there. We need to close our own loopholes that allow our legislators to keep cooking the books for their corporate sponsors.

Putting more sensible limits on campaign donations -including overturning Citizens United- would be a good place to start.

 

leftyohiolib

(5,917 posts)
19. nothing will be done - no one will care like outing a cia agent keeping a lid on irans nukes,
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:16 PM
Aug 2012

torture, stolen elections , hackable voting machines,remember tom delay he's still not in jail

DippyDem

(659 posts)
22. Maybe that's why Mitten's been so desperate to win the presidency
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:33 PM
Aug 2012

so he can pardon all the Bain Partners and to commit more tax fraud for himself. Then he can resign like Nixon and get pardoned by "brown-noser" Ryan the next new president.

riverbendviewgal

(4,254 posts)
23. Romney/Ryan are for MONEY for themselves and their supporters , not for the Good of America
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:34 PM
Aug 2012

This is so UnAmerican what Romney is doing.

gateley

(62,683 posts)
39. I agree. It's not so much that he's done anything illegal (I'm sure he has the best tax lawyers
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 11:09 PM
Aug 2012

money can buy), but it's so unAmerican. As a DUer pointed out to me, look at all the revenue we're losing and how it's adding to the deficit. Doesn't seem like this guy cares about America, yet he wants to be its commander in chief.

Dustlawyer

(10,499 posts)
25. Why don't we staff up the IRS to audit all of the 1 million and more a year b/c everyone
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:41 PM
Aug 2012

I have known at that level cheats. We would not have to cut social welfare programs and could lower the deficit without raising taxes!

Conium

(119 posts)
26. The President should act.
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:53 PM
Aug 2012

President Obama is shirking his duty if he doesn't go after these tax cheats.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
38. There's some stuff that has to go down in some very private board-rooms first.
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 05:49 PM
Aug 2012

Other "shoes have to drop" so that responses are most financially strategic in terms of the extent of whatever remedies are possible, to limit as much damage as possible. It would help if Congress were behind him.

gateley

(62,683 posts)
40. We don't know if they really cheated or broke any laws -- that's to be determined.
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 11:13 PM
Aug 2012

They may just have taken advantage of the perfectly legal (albeit unjust) loopholes. Besides, the President of the United States isn't who would "go after" tax cheats. Not part of his " duty". He doesn't have the authority. Remember civics class?

patrice

(47,992 posts)
36. 1+ & there are many varieties of germs in it. The devil IS in these details, ergo Romney will sell
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 05:34 PM
Aug 2012

us out if he gets a chance, which he probably will anyway, because he CAN, but it will be even worse if he becomes President. This country WILL be on the auction block.

Conium

(119 posts)
32. Privileged Character
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 05:01 PM
Aug 2012

If you or I did what Romney and his Bain Capitol cohorts have done, we would be UNDER the jail.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
33. Do we want someone involved in this stuff to make important decisions about our financial future as
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 05:20 PM
Aug 2012

as other nations respond to WORLD financial crises?

From the NYT's piece:

"That tactic is also used to avoid taxes in some other countries and to a void restrictions on share ownership by noncitizens of some countries. In its 2010 annual report, released by Gawker, Viking Global Strategies, a hedge fund, reported using such swaps in Europe, Asia and Latin America. Romney family trusts have indirect stakes in that fund through a Goldman Sachs fund.
"

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)
37. any business arrangement that doesn't have a legitimate function except to avoid paying taxes is
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 05:36 PM
Aug 2012

Tax evasion.


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