For any who believe Occupy to be dead, you need only look into a mirror.

[Fire Walk With Me]

Last edited Thu Aug 23, 2012, 03:51 PM - Edit history (1)

A people-powered movement requires people to participate. The 99% requires that level of participation.

No one will create the Change for the better you wish to see in the world. It will not be given you. You must stand up and Change things for the better.

Or those who wish to Change things for their own benefit, will.

"And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent."

-V for Vendetta

For those who have marched, camped, organized, donated food, time, and money; who have spread the message and even in their mind known they are the 99%...thank you.

[Summer Hathaway]

1. Indeed.

"A people-powered movement requires people to participate."

And when the people do not participate, it couldn't possibly be because the 'movement' is without merit - it's because the people are at fault.

[Zorra]

23. The Anti-Social Justice Movement strikes again.

Congratulations, your Wall St. bankster heroes got away with ripping us off and destroying the country at the same time.

You must be so proud!

[Summer Hathaway]

32. Ah, yes, the much-invoked meme

that anyone who is indifferent to, or critical of OWS is automatically on 'the other side'.

As I've said before on this topic, OWSies have become like Fundies - if you've not been 'saved' by the Lord OWS and submit your soul to his greatness, you are an evil sinner who
champions the oppressors.

The old "your with us or against us" routine, complete with a lock-stepping mentality.

It's old, it's tired, and it has absolutely no foundation in fact - only in the minds of the OWSies who live in their little black-and-white world.

There are many who work for positive change and justice who are not affiliated with, nor supporters of Occupy. And pretending that Occupy is the only truth, the light, and the way is, quite frankly, absurd.

[Fire Walk With Me]

38. No one is doing any of that. We're just attempting to drum up support against horrific issues

requiring immediate attention. Issues not on any electoral ballot I have seen.

I am aware of a great many positive social movements and support them. Occupy is among a group taking it directly to the powers regarding Citizens United, Glass-Steagall, and many other issues. Among them are Code Pink, Veterans For Peace, Iraqi Veterans Against The War, and others, all wonderful organizations...you will see interminglings of these groups at various targets.

The more the merrier is the message. It does not matter if you join any of these groups, but please, join at the actions to create that Change we so desperately need!

[Summer Hathaway]

45. I have read many of your posts, FWWM

and I greatly admire and respect your commitment, along with your obvious passion.

I have also watched the Occupy movement with great interest since its inception. But part of the problem I've encountered in dealing with OWSies is being told - as I was just again in this thread - that if I am not an active Occupy supporter/participant, I am championing the behavior of the banksters and Wall Streeters.

Surely you understand that this kind of "with us or against us" mentality just smacks of the very thing many of us abhorred about the Bush administration - the notion that if you don't stand with OWS, you are on the side of the enemy.

Do all OWSies think in those terms? I suspect not. But that's another part of the problem: the fact that anyone can claim to speak on behalf of the movement, because there is no leadership (even if it's just a PR role) to state in clear terms what OWS is all about, and who is in a position to speak on its behalf.

I have always taken action when it comes to positive change. The fact that I, along with millions of others, choose to go about doing so without any connection or allegiance to OWS is not to be dismissed as being 'on the wrong side', or lacking true commitment.

When anyone from any group tells me that if I'm not 'with' them, I am obviously enabling the enemies of true social justice, you can count me out of that group - permanently.

This is what Occupy is up against. Many of it's own self-proclaimed adherents are obnoxiously detrimental to what was meant to be 'the cause'. What OWS intends to do about that remains to be seen.

As for you, keep fighting the good fight - under whatever name, flag or banner you find appropriate. You have the passion to do so, and I've no doubt your efforts will be worthwhile.

Edited to add: In response to your assertion that "no one is doing that", please read response #23: "The Anti-Social Justice Movement strikes again. Congratulations, your Wall St. bankster heroes got away with ripping us off and destroying the country at the same time. You must be so proud!"

As I said above, any group that proclaims people who are not "with them" must be proud of that their Wall St. bankster heroes' have gotten away with destroying the country can count me out. That kind of rhetoric is RW bullshit - but I think you know that. And again I will say that what OWS intends to do about that kind of BS remains to be seen.

[Fire Walk With Me]

51. I'd written a rousing reply and lost it in a browser hiccough.

You are correct, and I am correct. The time is now, and the possible damage unimaginable if they are allowed to win. I shouted about this in 2010 and was correct. I can see the same thing again gathering at a far greater level.

I am of course not the voice of Occupy; no one is excepting consensed statements from the GA. I am attempting to motivate as the time is now. They will definitely neither slow down nor stop at any time; we must slow them down, stop them, to win.

I -am- an absolutist. I'm bipolar. However, I am also correct about the need for us to step up and stop them before they stop us. The increasingly militarized police state should be an indication of why; that, and the increasing narrative of "protest and you'll get some of this" where used to exist the 1st Amendment. See the RNC in Tampa; they've emptied a jail of 1700 beds in anticipation of "mass arrests". Five or six of those arrested in Chicago at No NATO are still in custody. I know one of them personally and he is a good man in bullshit circumstances. The longer we wait, the more they increase the mechanisms against us. No one seems to care about militarized police, nuisance arrests, political prisoners, and the obvious death of the 1st Amendment (and the approaching death of the 4th as the FBI ransack homes and apartments looking for "anarchist" literature). They've begun doing pre-protest arrests to attempt to staunch the flow of free speech. We must act now in such numbers they cannot do anything but return the power to the people.

[Summer Hathaway]

62. Oh, okay, I understand now

No, really.

And I just want to wish you the best of luck with all that there. Really.

[Fire Walk With Me]

67. Do not patronize me.

[patrice]

55. All of what you say is true. I was with our occupy since September last year.

Being an older peace advocate, I have been very happy to participate in any occupy activities. Although our local occupy had some issues that I won't go into here, we did a lot of good stuff together. Work and action are the keys and I do say to them the very things that you say in this post.

I have also friended OWS on Face Book. I share their posts and post to their threads supporting and also providing the perspective that you describe, because it IS missing. Most of the OWS FB thing has been a positive experience. Their FB group does attract a few extremists, one of whom reposted some OWS stuff and then attacked me very clearly as though he intended to drive me away from the movement. I think the occupy is vulnerable to that. I stayed cool and dealt with him blow by blow on FB and then blocked him from my account and warned all of my FB friends about him. I do not blame OWS for the behaviors of this sort of person.

If you agree with me that the Tea Party, a quintessentially racist organization that grew out of racist predecessor organizations in American grassroots, no matter what happens in November, WILL come out of this year stronger than ever, perhaps you will also
agree that the Occupy is the only effective counter we have to this very real possibility, that is, if we can keep the Occupy honest against the efforts of certain types of racist Libertarians and the Tea Party to infiltrate it.

In short, I know the occupy needs you, I hope you will consider giving it whatever input you can.

Solidarity!

[Summer Hathaway]

60. I very much appreciate your response

and the tenor thereof.

I do not put my faith in Occupy, for the many reasons I've stated in this thread. That does not mean, however, that I do not share many of its goals - nor does it mean that those goals are not achievable through other means. I am confident that you understand that, given what you have said here, and the way you have graciously stated it.

I totally agree with your remarks about the Teabaggers - but respectfully disagree that Occupy is the only effective counter we have.

Sadly, the infiltration of Occupy by Libertarians and Teabaggers is not the only challenge OWS must face up to, and ultimately deal with. Some of "your own" (as they claim to be) are obnoxious, self-appointed spokespeople for the movement - and they have been extremely detrimental to your cause. Their "with us or against us" attitude has turned many of us off - permanently, I'm afraid.

Quite frankly, I read some of the comments here from those who deign to speak on behalf of the movement - and realize without hesitation that I do not want to be associated with such people in any respect. If they are representative of what OWS stands for, I cannot, and will not, stand with OWS. And if they are not representative, OWS should have said so a very long time ago.

Peace be with you, and may your endeavors towards positive change be successful and rewarding.

[Zorra]

78. No amount of civility can cover even the smallest manure pile.

Or the smell of it.

[Summer Hathaway]

82. That reminds me

of the other problem with a lot of OWSies - the childish tantrums, the lack of maturity, etc.

[U4ikLefty]

105. When you post obviously obtuse comment WRT Occupy what do you expect?

You are one of the "criticize from th couch" people.

Those of us who are out in the streets know better. We know the reality of Occupy & we suffer fools badly...thus the JUSTIFIED "attacks".

Sorry your skin is sooooo thin.

[Summer Hathaway]

107. Amazing how many dedicated OWSies

seem to spend all of their time here, instead of out in the streets, where they claim to be changing the world.

Thin-skinned? That would imply that I am interested in the opinions of certain people. I am not.

Justified 'attacks'? Is that like "someone on the internetz was mean to me and my pet cause"? That would be your bailiwick, would it not?

[U4ikLefty]

109. I post with less frequency than YOU...lol!!!

Do the math before you put your foot in your mouth.

Still deflecting from the couch, eh?

BTW, my actions with Occupy LA are well known by many on this site so take a freakin hike!!!

[Summer Hathaway]

110. Ah, one of those

"legends in my own website world" types.

[U4ikLefty]

111. Nope, don't post enough.

Too busy on the streets.

Have a nice day under the bridge!!!

[Summer Hathaway]

112. Just gave yourself away -

- but that was just a matter of time, wasn't it?

[Zorra]

75. Memes that accurately illustrate the motivations behind conservative agendas

are frequently employed by progressives.

Conservatives come in with the same old anti-progressive schtick, and progressives dismiss them with memes because we have seen the agenda many times before.

It's not rocket science.

[Blecht]

93. Occupy is not the enemy

But I think you know that.

[Summer Hathaway]

97. And neither are those of us

who choose not to participate in Occupy 'the enemy'.

Unfortunately, that is a concept which seems to be beyond the comprehension of the OWSies who post here.

Indifference to the movement does not equate to you hate Occupy!"

Stating that one finds OWS to be irrelevant does not equate to you WANT Occupy to fail!"

I do appreciate the plight of those OWSers who are truly committed to their cause, but are continually undermined by those who allegedly speak 'for the movement' in terms that are obnoxious, insulting, and lack any factual basis.

You might want to point that out to your colleagues - the ones who do more harm than good to the movement with every post.

[Blecht]

103. Point that out to my colleagues?

That sure is a crap statement, and it shows to me that your have no intention of taking part in any civil discourse.

I'm done with you.

[Summer Hathaway]

104. Yes, your colleagues

as in your fellow OWSers.

I thought you guys were all about 'solidarity'. Perhaps not.

[sibelian]

3. Absolutely.

[Mc Mike]

4. + 1, Fire.

The cause isn't dead, the activists are still here, and the non-politicized 99% is still getting screwed.

Mass media and a few big-mouthed bunco artists push the myth of Occupy's 'death'.

[DLevine]

5. Thank you. K&R. n/t

[mmonk]

6. When more austerity kicks in, the movement will be on steroids, mark my words.

[2pooped2pop]

7. thanks Fire. It seems that many like to slam Occupy

while sitting at their keyboard. I'm not calling them chicken-hawks or the 101st keyboarding fighters, but they sure do remind me of them when they put down the only thing that has made a change in our direction in the last 12years or more.

same people too, I think. It's like they see an Occupy thread and they rush to jump in on it. Kind of like the repigs, jumping on everything with no ideas of their own.

[4th law of robotics]

13. Doing something shouldn't be confused with doing something productive.

[Egalitarian Thug]

69. Think of Brownian motion. When there is any activity something will happen. n/t

[4th law of robotics]

70. Well in this case the reaction has been to annoy potential allies among the general public

so there was some response.

But nothing productive.

Just like the Westboro idiots get a response.

[sabrina 1]

79. We don't have any problems with allies. But the 1% sure is annoyed, annoyed enough to

have moved from raiding the public square to raiding the homes of protesters, looking for 'clothes and books'. Books?? Why are they so afraid of this supposedly 'non-productive' movement?

[4th law of robotics]

83. Were you aware that public support for the OWS has been steadily dropping?

have moved from raiding the public square to raiding the homes of protesters, looking for 'clothes and books'. Books?? Why are they so afraid of this supposedly 'non-productive' movement?

You use quotation marks. Could you assign that quote to a speaker?

[Egalitarian Thug]

102. Neither you nor I can possibly predict the consequences of what OWS has done or is doing.

Comparing OWS to the Westboro Baptists is simply asinine. You like to project an image of rationality. Statements like this make you look like just another idiot screaming on the internet (something I've done myself from time to time).

And BTW, how much time have you spent on the streets with OWS?

[4th law of robotics]

114. Long term public opinion polls show support is waning

no major political party gives them the time of day and they've yet to influence a single election.

And BTW, how much time have you spent on the streets with OWS?

None. I don't think spending time on the streets is an effective way to accomplish real goals. I've been quite clear on that.

How much time do you spend praying to Yahweh to fix all this?

[Egalitarian Thug]

122. You forgot the original point I wrote. You're looking for a direct, short-term effect and,

not seeing one, write the whole thing off. Brownian motion, remember?

I spent all the time I could talking with the (mostly) kids here. Of course, LV has never been what anybody would call a progressive stronghold.

[U4ikLefty]

106. Professional Engineer AND Occupier here.

I know Fire personally.

Engineering is my JOB, Occupy is my CIVIC DUTY.

"Productive" is for the 1%...Occupy is for the 99%. Just so you can finally get it.

[4th law of robotics]

115. You claim to be an engineer

could you, in your job, claim that you are "doing something" without actually showing results (well people are talking about your project) and expect to keep your job?

"Productive" is for the 1%...Occupy is for the 99%. Just so you can finally get it.

So you're arguing the 99% doesn't make or do anything? I disagree.

[Fire Walk With Me]

8. Kick.

[hack89]

9. What if there are equally valid ways to expend time and effort to effect change?

there is an election in November - I think those hundreds of thousands of Democrats spending countless hours working as campaign volunteers are just as concerned, just as dedicated, just as invested in America's future. Not everyone is ignoring OWS out of apathy.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. Yeah, but

movies based on comic books based on romanticized, historically-inaccurate images of a religious terrorist are way cooler.

[hack89]

11. Could you please decode your answer? Thanks. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

30. Judging from the OPs avatar and the at-length quote in the OP

FWWM seems rather fond of the V for Vendetta mythology. It's disturbing how many people take their moral cues from a movie about a comic book that idolize the religious terrorist Guy Fawkes. I can think of nothing about Fawkes, in either realistical or romanticized versions, that should be offered in a serious political discourse. One might as well cite The Turner Diaries.

Still, people do apparently fall for the romanticization portrayed in a comic book. I can only assume it's because it's "cool."

[hack89]

31. Thanks. nt

[FSogol]

33. Gotta agree. Completely childish and sophomoric. n/t

[hunter]

123. I think you've got it there -- the November election.

Obama is better than Romney.

There's too many "law and order" types (sadly, even here on DU) who do not respond well to blocked streets and colorful protests.

I get a vibe that some people are holding back until after Obama wins this election.

[4th law of robotics]

12. Perhaps many people realize that camping out isn't the way to change the system

declaring your strategy as the only valid one and condemning anyone who don't get on board as supporting the opposition is a bit silly.

I'm going to play with lego's until all wars and racism have ended. Ask yourself: if you don't like wars and racism why aren't you playing lego's with me? It can't be that you don't think that will work. It must be because you secretly support wars and racism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Catch up, there has been no camping for MONTHS

on the other hand, the movement is still alive and well and yes, gaap I know, ACTIVE.

You need to change your tune.

[4th law of robotics]

17. Cool. What laws have they passed? What politicians have they backed (that won)

What financial lobbyists have they brought down?

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Well locally there is a nuclear station that is hating Occupy Encinitas right about now

for actually bringing the NRC down their asses.

But hey, you know they are all about not doing a thing.

Then there is this other energy company that is hating Occupy San Diego and allied groups for ahem, having a local board NOT authorize a plant in the Mission Trails park.

We also have the wonderful members of the CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY who are members of several Occupy groups.

As I said, you really need to catch up.

Of course there is the group working with foreclosures, preventing them.

Oh and speaking of foreclosures, the AG for the state, Kamela Harris, actually credits occupy for quite of the work in that respect. You know that thing that a few AGs are doing suing banks and passing laws... I know, details.

You really need to catch up.

To add, you have been told this before, but as usual, you will forget it.

[4th law of robotics]

22. OWS was about . . . protesting a nuclear power plant in California?

At the behest of the city council: http://encinitas.patch.com/articles/city-council-to-address-san-onofre-safety-concerns

Funny, if it was all about opposing nuclear power where did that whole "occupy wallstreet" thing come from?

Here are some straws:



Feel free to grasp at as many as you like.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. You really do not understand Occupy

but hey, we knew that.

Who do you think talked to the CIty Council of not just Encinitas but Oceanside and Vista? The wind faerie?

Down the hole we go... who do you think owns San Onofre? (Here is a hint., Southern California Edisson), who is Southern California Edisson? Just one of the largest energy conglomerates, where are they traded? Oh yes, the NYSE.

My, you really need some of these.



I did notice how you avoided this though.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill/sen/sb_1451-1500/sb_1473_cfa_20120516_140707_sen_floor.html

The bill of rights came through the pressure of Occupy and other allied groups. I noticed you were quick. Why is that?

[4th law of robotics]

26. This is sad

like grandpa claiming he invented the automobile only to find out once upon a time he had a part time job working in a car factory.

They're just claiming success based on anything that occurs near to them and then portraying themselves as the sole motivator behind that change.

I doubt I'll change your mind but consider: this group set out to fix all the social inequalities in this country, get wallstreet out of DC, and so on.

And now they're big claim to fame is being part of a citizens group that argued for more testing of a nuclear power plant.

Does that seem like the sort of thing OWS would brag about if it were actually successful?

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. So you think Kamela Harris crediting them is a lie?

You think they do nothing, there is nothing I can do, Facts mean nothing to you. Truly.

Activist continue to work, some under the rubric of Occupy, some under other rubrics, many under many rubrics, including Occupy.

This threatens you. But OCCUPY OUR HOMES was directly responsible, with a few other groups in helping to organize the political pressure for this. Political pressure that yes, worked.

You asked for an example of legislation passed, there is one... directly tied to Occupy... and you claim they did not.

We must conclude that in your case, the wall would be far more understanding.

So here,



It is indeed fitting.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

35. OCCUPY FUKUSHIMA! -- from a safe distance

[loli phabay]

39. OMG i shouldnt laugh but that there is funny.

[4th law of robotics]

64. Oh not nothing, they were apparently loosely associated with an already

active movement to limit the construction of a single nuclear power plant.

Watch out AARP/NRA/Koch brothers. There's a new political powerhouse in this country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Home owner bill of rights

Deal with that.

Oh and one more thing, San Onofre is not under construction. Currently it is not generating electricity after a small release of radiation back in January.

You should try to find out why...facts are not your strong suit...San Onofre was commisioned close to two decades ago, that is hardly under construction.

[Occulus]

44. No, THIS is sad

Member Feedback

Number of Star members ignoring 4th law of robotics: 38
Number of Star members blocking mail from 4th law of robotics (including members ignoring): 44

[RZM]

56. Why is that sad?

There are plenty of posters with at least that many people ignoring them.

[4th law of robotics]

65. Perhaps they've taken your path

and decided they can't argue against my points so they argue against (or ignore) me instead.

[patrice]

52. 7 months of camping brought some people together who would likely have NEVER met otherwise. nt

[4th law of robotics]

63. The same could be said of summer camp

or a concert.

Those things don't change the world.

If the goal of OWS was "meeting likeminded people and making new friends" then perhaps it was a success. But I thought there was a bit more to it than that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Home owner bill of rights

Will keep dragging it out

Not that it helps with wall, but that is a concrete example...not that the wall will accept it.

[4th law of robotics]

71. The only sources I've found crediting the OWS with that

have been those articles put out by the OWS.

Everyone else seems to realize this was something being discussed prior to the OWS that had broad backing and the occupy movement just jumped on board as it was mostly a reality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Nah son, it was credited by Kamela Harris

and that is only in California. AG's have credited OWS for a few of these things, for keeping the pressure. AKA doing what you think they are not doing.

Facts are not going to penetrate your head. You are convinced, lord knows why, they are still camping. (In Madrid they still are, that be Madrid Spain)... so I think we are pretty much done. Nothing to be gained from hitting my head against your very solid wall.

THey are a bunch of drug using, and violent hippies, I know... and useless to boot. We have heard similar things every time a social justice movement comes to be. Most of the world of social justice movements is in the shadows... and historians discover their role later on. Sadly, due to the way you probably learned legends, not quite history, their role is never clear. That is also on purpose.

Here, use it often, it fits.

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/54163/54163,1160488435,2/stock-photo-old-wall-1976246.jpg

I can't get to you. Nor expect to anymore, and every-time you are told what they have done, you do the same exact shit. So at this point the obvious question is why bother?

[4th law of robotics]

74. You keep claiming I'm having issues with facts and yet

all you have to back your claims are . . . well claims.

"Lot's of AGs agree" isn't a fact. You realize this right?

THey are a bunch of drug using, and violent hippies, I know... and useless to boot. We have heard similar things every time a social justice movement comes to be. Most of the world of social justice movements is in the shadows... and historians discover their role later on. Sadly, due to the way you probably learned legends, not quite history, their role is never clear. That is also on purpose.

I'm sure someone said that but it wasn't me. Perhaps you are confused?

And sourcing a picture of a wall makes for a pretty weak citation don't you think?

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. I have, have an excellent day

(FYI I heard a few democrats at the DEMOCRATIC STATE CONVENTION NO LESS) credit OWS for quite a few things. One of those people was Nancy Pelosi no less. Van Jones spoke at length of them too, and I might add the Chairman of the Democratic Party and yes the AG of the state Kamela Harris.

And I know a FEW OF THE MEMBERS OF THE LOCAL CENTRAL COMMITTEE of the local DEMOCRATIC PARTY are OSD members.

I have also made a point to write in news stories when Occupy is involved in a few projects.

But hey... whatever trips your trigger, one day, when the definite history of this period is written, probably by a graduate student, probably PhD candidate, much of this crap will be written in definite form.

I have the feeling that you have a stake in the process and keep shooting them down. They must be a threat to you, And truth be told, you are not alone, they are a threat to a lot of people in the ruling elites. Most of them happen to be Repubs at this point, but many conservadems hate occupy the same way they hated the anti war movement and the civil rights movement. American history, rinse, repeat.

[4th law of robotics]

77. You'll understand why I am hesitant to take your opinion as fact right?

I have the feeling that you have a stake in the process and keep shooting them down. They must be a threat to you, And truth be told, you are not alone, they are a threat to a lot of people in the ruling elites. Most of them happen to be Repubs at this point, but many conservadems hate occupy the same way they hated the anti war movement and the civil rights movement. American history, rinse, repeat.

The weak fallback argument of every sidelined and ineffectual group.

"they mock us because they're afraid of us, yeah that's it"

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Of course, I could show you facts, but that is not going to matter

have a good day... a magnificent day.

Can't wait for those silly historians to write those silly histories of this social movement and put it in context, Reality is, if you were around oh circa 1965, I suspect you'd have the same exact reaction to the Civil Rights movement.

It's ok... really.

[4th law of robotics]

116. Good, you keep those facts hidden away

that'll show me!

Can't wait for those silly historians to write those silly histories of this social movement and put it in context, Reality is, if you were around oh circa 1965, I suspect you'd have the same exact reaction to the Civil Rights movement.

No. Historians could start writing about it now as it's mostly dead.

And the civil rights movement had a clear leader, a goal, and a strategy for achieving that goal.

Show me those three things for the OWS movement.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. Same about the underground

Same about the Sufragist.

You are a status quo person.

[4th law of robotics]

118. The underground had a clear goal and strategy

the suffragettes had a clear goal and a strategy.

Provide the same for the OWS.

What is their goal? And nothing vague. Be specific like for the suffragettes it was winning the right to vote for all adult women in America.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. We have provided it

You chose not to listen or even read.

Have a good life.

I am done playing with this mouse.

You are truly a waste of my time...a saying about horses and water comes to mind.

Good bye.

[4th law of robotics]

121. No, you never did

please provide in one sentence the clear and concise goal of the OWS movement.

[sabrina 1]

80. You're way behind. They've moved long ago to occupying the courts eg, and are so far

successfully exposing the corruption of law enforcement as they win case after case.

They are getting ready now for the next of court occupations.

They have been occupying Banks, (the 1% really hates that) and illegally fore-closed on homes, doing what Congress has failed to do, actually keeping people in their homes.

They've been busy accomplishing things while the supporters of the 1% spend their time regurgitating the same old talking points they were using back in the very beginning.

[4th law of robotics]

84. Supporters, I have noticed, speak of their successes in generalities

rarely in specifics (and when they do it's pretty sad, like piggy-backing on to an existing anti-nuclear movement).


These are rationalizations, not realities.

[sabrina 1]

86. There are plenty of specifics available as OWS has its own news sites which report on all they

doing every day. People who oppose OWS I notice, and this started on the day it began, was proven wrong then, and continues to be wrong, have little to say other the same old baseless talking points.

I used to post information on OWS here, but realized that DU is not a good forum anymore for information on Social Justice movements, or organizations, such as Wikileaks eg, as there is so much incorrect information being posted here and it is way too time consuming to keep correcting it rather than spending the time on the Social Media where keeping up with the facts on these movements, is much more productive.

Iow, no one comes to DU to get factual information on the Social Justice movements that are sweeping the globe anymore. People now have just moved on ...

You have the ability to learn facts if you want them, I for one wasted a lot of time here doing that in the past, but you have to be in a place where people actually want facts for that to be a worthwhile endeavor. The worldwide viewership for these movements on Social Media is huge compared to forums like this, and that is where I spend time actually doing something productive to try to make this world a better place. You are free to spend your time bashing the efforts of those who at least are trying to do something constructive about this world if you wish.

[4th law of robotics]

87. Ah so according to OWS the occupy movement has been a success

that's some rock solid evidence there.

[Cleita]

14. Anybody who thinks it's dead isn't paying attention.

Just because the 99% have jobs or lack of funds to participate 24/7 doesn't mean that its spirit isn't alive and well in all of our hearts and it will rise again in the 3D world when the time is ripe.

[JackRiddler]

15. Correct.

Occupy is active all over the country.

The only thing that died last fall was the freedom of assembly, murdered by a nationwide crackdown.

[Cleita]

21. I don't think the crackdown quite murdered

even that. It's in the safe house right now, recuperating, ready to arise when the occasion warrants it. I do believe it will have to rely more on guerilla tactics from now on rather than open confrontation. After all it's how the rebels won the American revolution. They really couldn't beat the better armed and manned English by the rules of engagement set by them, but they could by guerilla tactics which they learned from the Native Americans. It's also how the Irish got rid of the English after 800 years of oppression by the British. Sure Ghandi dumped them out of India with peaceful resistance and huge crowds, but we are too spread out and underpopulated to make such a grand theater so I do believe guerilla tactics are in order. No, I'm not advocating violence and I'm speaking in metaphor when using a military term like guerilla, but making our targets really specific, making them really notice, and then dissipating quickly before they can beat you up is what I'm getting at.

[Joe the Revelator]

18. I thought this spring was suppose to be ripe......then i thought it was going to be this summer....

OWS was flawed from the beginning.

[zappaman]

19. I heard that too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002100066#post15

"Yup, in the spring the political class is in for a surprise"

I'm still trying to figure out what it was...

[Cleita]

24. I don't live in a place where there is enough of a liberal population to make a real

occupy statement like the ones in the big cities so I couldn't participate in that way. However, we who cared, were cheering on our occupy families in Los Angeles and Oakland. Since the pubs decided to run the R/R ticket, there hasn't been a whole lot to protest cuz we know Obama is a shoo-in. Wait until after the elections though.

[randome]

37. They've moved on to praising Julian Assange, our next messiah.

Didn't you get the memo?

[JackRiddler]

54. 50,000-100,000 people marched in NYC on Mayday

From a huge OWS rally at Union Square. With thousands of people from the unions, the black community, immigrants rights groups, students, economic justice groups, antiwar and anti-imperialist groups, hippies and all the rest. At least twice as many saw us marching down Broadway, with the march at one point extending from behind Houston to past the Woolworth Building. Several thousand people ended up at an open private-public space downtown, on the Hudson. An enormous police action was staged to force them out within a couple of hours.

Not one media truck. Not a single one. Almost no reports. On the shameful NPR, the report was that "hundreds" of protesters "clashed with police."

In small part, this media blackout on the continuing protests and organizing activities exists so as not to antagonize the smug systemic conformity of persons such as yourself.

No move can be made to set up a protest anywhere in this city without police action to evict the protesters.

Meanwhile, the numbers of people organizing all over the country for the long haul is greater than ever.

It's not going to manifest itself on your schedule, and for good reason, for you are no friend to it. It's not going to manifest itself on anyone's schedule. As was the case last year, the system itself by providing its own routine economic and other atrocities is going to constantly organize and regroup its own opposition.

[hack89]

28. If a people-powered movement fails to attract people perhaps it is not a movement after all. nt

[limpyhobbler]

29. Far from dead. We have not even really begun yet. That was just the dressed rehearsal.

What happened last fall was a spark. It breathed a little bit of new life into a very old movement. Occupy is just a current expression of a movement that has been going on long before any of us was born. And it will still be going on long after we are gone.

Chris Hedges called it a dressed rehearsal for the real thing yet to happen. And I think that's a decent analogy.

A new generation of activists has come of age with Occupy and gotten some vital experience. Many will engage in a life time of activism in one form or another.

The movement will adapt and evolve but the ideas are too powerful to die.

[Fire Walk With Me]

34. One of Occupy's main goals is "money out of politics", or the end of "Citizens United"

which allows corporations and individuals unlimited funding of those they support, such as the Koch brothers supposed $100,000,000 choice of Paul Ryan as VP, as one DUer recently posted because in two years the Koch's industry investments will have to upgrade to EPA standards or shut down. How much easier and far less expensive to purchase a legislator who will simply end the EPA instead.

No politician is seeking to end Citizens United. It is not part of the platform of any major candidate of which I am aware. It is up to the People to bring enough pressure to force the system to end CU, because financial influence of the state is Mussolini's definition of Fascism.

It's here. This is Fascism by its pure definition. America is now a Fascist country, driven and purchased by business and money. Occupy seeks to end that. Most obviously, voting will not change this because it is not on the ballot.

Those who argue against Occupy...baffle me. And this is only regarding a single issue.

[notundecided]

36. What is OWS Protesting About...

Corporate Greed
Wall St Malfeasance
1st amendment rights
Voter Suppression
Citizens United
High Tuition
Income Disparity
Poverty
Illegal Foreclosures
Healthcare
Environmental Degradation
Factory Farms

While we sit on our asses complaining about what a total failure OWS is.

[zappaman]

40. You left out some things...

[patrice]

53. The student debt bubble is tied to the mortgage banking crisis, ergo the student debt bubble...

will NOT be going away.

Free the students!!!

[patrice]

58. Just in case you missed it: the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau's, Richard Cordray

is the source of the statement in my post #53

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=Cordray+and+student+loan+debt&oq=Cordray+and+student+loan+debt&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i400.4269.11813.0.12072.29.6.0.19.0.0.107.419.5j1.6.0...0.0...1ac.qDLK9XvIZMY

http://www.consumerfinance.gov/

[loli phabay]

41. thats the problem depending on who you talk to the aims change

its seems a mishmash of all causes from factory farms to nuke stations to free donuts, cant get a message out if there is no message there.

[notundecided]

42. I Just Posted The Message(s)

[loli phabay]

43. well you forgot some nuclear power station in california, and there are probuably other stuff out

there.

[notundecided]

46. Well, do you want them to just protest

factory farms?

[loli phabay]

48. well why not, everything else seems to have made it onto the list

and thats the problem, its a mishmash of every cause out there so people just tune it out.

[randome]

50. I can summarize for you: "Make things nicer."

Something it's safe to say we all believe in. But others have more pragmatic solutions to bandy about.

[sabrina 1]

88. And those pragmatic solutions of yours, would be what exactly? And please point to your huge

successes so far. I will be more than delighted to join your pragmatic movement, which I gather, is not interested in making things 'nicer' for anyone, but doesn't seem to have much of a coherent message other than that, if you can enlighten me as to what it is your movement is doing.

I will await information on your pragmatic solutions to the decades long problems facing this country but I have to say, with things getting worse by the day for millions of Americans, I am not seeing much success. Otoh, it's very possible I missed it.

[randome]

89. I don't have all the answers. Neither does OWS.

But I know that trying to shame the 1% into behaving better is a losing proposition. It it our legislators who create the loopholes and accept the bribes. If OWS wants a solid success, it should unite behind one concept, such as overturning Citizens United.

I know that for the most part they want this but it's only one of about a dozen messages that have been listed as their objectives. Trying to change everything ends up spreading yourselves too thin and nothing gets changed.

When no one is in charge, everyone is in charge. And nothing gets done.

[sabrina 1]

96. Like the Civil Rights Movement, trying to shame bigots into

doing the right thing was a waste of time. It was not a popular movement, trying to change a whole culture of racism was impossible. So it would have been better to just stick to the status quo. To be pragmatic about it.

Fortunately we do not share your pessimism nor did those who even when their movement was under attack, vilified, condemned and unpopular, they did not stop until they finally got some Social Justice. I'm sure they too heard many comments like yours.

[randome]

98. The civil rights movement did not change the bigots.

They are still here with us. You have only to look at the Tea Party to see that.

The civil rights movement changed the laws. They put pressure on the legislators to guarantee equal opportunities for all. It's arguable that we're still not there yet but my point remains.

[sabrina 1]

101. And OWS will not change corrupt Bankers, nor is that their goal.

Their goal is to put pressure on their legislators to hold them accountable. To pressure for legislation that removes money from our political system.

I don't know where you got the idea that OWS thought Wall Street Criminals should be hugged and counseled and rehabilitated. We don't have time for that. They should be prosecuted and laws passed that will make a repeat of their crimes impossible in the future. And keep their corrupt money out of our electoral system.

Your pragmatic movement has had decades to do something, anything, to stop the moving train that is destroying this country. All it did was appease the criminals. The old ways you advocate are what got us here.

[Fire Walk With Me]

91. It's not our fault everything needs to be changed for the better ;) However, good point:

Each Occupation has Affinity Groups and Working Groups who do their own thing, such as concentrating specifically upon foreclosures, LGTBQ rights and activities, etc. Anyone who shows up can join or create something regarding their particular interest, and dip into others as well.

[Summer Hathaway]

49. People have protested all kinds of things

since the dawn of time.

Success/failure is based on what is accomplished as a result of protesting, not on the fact that protesters exists, or that their cause is a righteous one.

[notundecided]

57. Well, what did you do to help the cause?

[Summer Hathaway]

59. Totally irrelevant to the discussion

I merely pointed out that the success or failure of protesting lies in the outcome, not in what is being protested, or the righteousness of the cause.

Apples - oranges - you know the rest.

[Fire Walk With Me]

90. No. This OP is entirely about every individual's responsibility to get up, get out,

and create the Change they want and we all need. The success or failure of this relies entirely upon people getting up and getting involved...or not. It is entirely up to them.

[hack89]

95. That is not the same as supporting Occupy

I want to create change in my town - which is why I am involved in several campaigns for the November elections. OWS is irrelevant to what we want to accomplish - we don't need them to make the changes we need.

[Summer Hathaway]

113. Another familiar meme around here these days ...

"entirely about every individual's responsibility to get up, get out, and create the Change they want and we all need. The success or failure of this relies entirely upon people getting up and getting involved...or not. It is entirely up to them."

Meaning: If Occupy fails to accomplish anything, it will be the fault of 'you people', and not the fault of a directionless, irrelevant, and totally failed movement.

Got it.

[malaise]

47. K & R

[Mnemosyne]

61. K&R

[DeSwiss]

72. One cannot used the old metrics.....

...of protest movements of yesterday to try to understand the OCCUPY MOVEMENT of today.....

- K&R

"These protesters have not come to work within the system. They are not pleading with Congress for electoral reform. They know electoral politics is a farce and have found another way to be heard and exercise power. They have no faith, nor should they, in the political system or the two major political parties. They know the press will not amplify their voices, and so they created a press of their own. They know the economy serves the oligarchs, so they formed their own communal system. This movement is an effort to take our country back.

This is a goal the power elite cannot comprehend. They cannot envision a day when they will not be in charge of our lives. The elites believe, and seek to make us believe, that globalization and unfettered capitalism are natural law, some kind of permanent and eternal dynamic that can never be altered. What the elites fail to realize is that rebellion will not stop until the corporate state is extinguished.

It will not stop until there is an end to the corporate abuse of the poor, the working class, the elderly, the sick, children, those being slaughtered in our imperial wars and tortured in our black sites. It will not stop until foreclosures and bank repossessions stop. It will not stop until students no longer have to go into debt to be educated, and families no longer have to plunge into bankruptcy to pay medical bills. It will not stop until the corporate destruction of the ecosystem stops, and our relationships with each other and the planet are radically reconfigured.

And that is why the elites, and the rotted and degenerate system of corporate power they sustain, are in trouble. That is why they keep asking what the demands are." ~Chris Hedges, "Why the Elites Are in Trouble"

[Odin2005]

81. OWS successfully changed the debate from deficits to jobs.

And that favors us. Anyone who denies that is an idiot or a tool.

[BOG PERSON]

85. at least it shook ppl out of passive neutrality

even if some of its rhetoric was lame, the fact it compelled ppl to take a position on something that actually matters means it wasn't a total waste.

[Blecht]

94. K and R. Thanks for being such a positive voice for Occupy here on DU

This place sure seems to need it.

[lunatica]

99. I'm a Socialist down to my toes

I've always been the 99%. I just didn't call myself that until Occupy named us.

[KoKo]

100. It's just starting......

so...yeah...it ain't over...

[U4ikLefty]

108. Yeah, it's been less that a year & we're "over"...really?

It's almost funny how many "liberals" & "progressives" on this board are sooooo eager to claim "Occupy is Dead!!!" Almost with the same hate they have for the Tea Party...makes one think.

[lonestarnot]

119. K & R!