Please stop denying this is a white power sign

[EffieBlack]

Link to tweet

[MrGrieves]

1. Do people refute that?

Do people really refute that?

I do think that the covington boys basketball pic wasn’t them using it for that purpose. In that pic they looked like they had just jumped up off the bench because someone hit a 3 point shot. Or at least thats the excuse people were going to make for it. And then make it look like we were idiots for assuming it was a racist symbol.... Which it has become.

[Fuzzpope]

2. Yes, they do.

Even here, and not only one or two ppl have done so.

[Ms. Toad]

6. It depends a lot on context.

The use of the gesture as a white power symbol started as a joke. (Ha ha let's start a rumor on social media that this is a white power symbol. Liberals are so dumb they will believe it.). At some point, the line between joke and reality blurred - and many racists started using it as some warped sort of badge of honor.

That said, there are people oblivious to the battle around this hand gestures who are using it as OK (the only common meaning for that hand gestures for a very long time), not realizing someone might interpret it as a white power symbol. People are also scouring old pictures for evidence of racism, and attributing it when they see this hand gesture, even when it was made before the joke started.

So it depends almost entirely on context (when was the photo taken, what was the photo of (a basketball game - in which 3 points is a natural explanation for the gesture, diving - in which failure to return the sign is a universal distress call), who is in the photo, does it appear to be deliberately posed).

In this case, assuming the photo is recent, given the cast of characters and the very deliberately posed shot, it is pretty clear that in this context it is intended to be a white power symbol.

[SCantiGOP]

17. You are 100% accurate

Often it is an innocent ‘OK’ sign.
In the picture on this OP it is obviously a hate symbol for White Power.

[MrGrieves]

30. you said it a lot better than I did

You said exactly what I was trying to convey. Thank you.

[scarytomcat]

62. the V for victory and the peace sign are not the same

for peace the palm is out for victory the the back of the hand is out
in the stone picture the palm is out in the picture down thread (supposed white nationalists) the back of the hand is out
I think right wings are just fucking with us, Gangs don't general flash signs to none gang members.

[EffieBlack]

68. "I think right wings are just fucking with us" because they are RACISTS

Non-racists don't "fuck with us" by using gestures associated with white supremacy. The very fact that they're using the gesture to TROLL or FUCK with us is proof of their intentions and attitudes.

Your argument is like saying that we should give the benefit of the doubt to people posing for pictures with ropes and nooses in their hands since they aren't NECESSARILY racists but are just trying to mess with us because, after all, ropes and nooses have been used for years for all kinds of innocent purposes. You'd be totally missing the fact that the only reason their particular behavior can MESS WITH US, is that they evoke very negative RACIST themes and outcomes.

[scarytomcat]

70. no I'm saying whether they are or are not gang signs/white supremacists signals

doesn't matter there words and actions are telling us what they are. There hand jesters are unimportant in the long run. When they lynch somebody or run them down with their car we arrest them.

[EffieBlack]

71. You don't think their hand gestures are important, but we should wait until they lynch someone?

Seriously?

[scarytomcat]

73. no I really don't think finger gestures should be an important discussion topic

I don't know which gesture is real or a fake and I don't really care. Now I have spent a number of posts responding to a waste of time. Have a good day, I'm done on this thread.

[The Mouth]

95. Thank you.

I dismiss anyone thinking the OK sign is a white power sign as someone easily trolled I won't even discuss it and simply block anyone dense enough to fall for it. Otherwise, it's like arguing with anti-vaxxers or flat-earthers.

[EarlG]

67. Just to make it even more confusing

there's a game called "The Circle Game" that schoolkids play. I hadn't heard of this until very recently, but apparently it's pretty old.

https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/wj8e74/searching-for-the-person-who-invented-the-circle-game

But yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not what Roger Stone and co. are doing in the picture. If I see white supremacists using this sign, I assume they're using it in the white power context.

[JackInGreen]

76. Yep

And several associated memes meant to misdirect you to look at it so a friend can virtually slug you..
Really damn confusing at first but context is EVERYTHING.

[OriginalGeek]

80. I'm 55 and I remember that game since at least the 80s

or maybe early 90s

And nowadays I see it online often incorporating both meanings to again troll. Someone will flash the sign, someone else will decry white power signs, original someone "innocently" says "i was just playing "the game" - made ya look". but they were playing both games. WP trolling and game trolling.

[Ferrets are Cool]

83. Thank you

[Honeycombe8]

85. Thanks. I've only seen that in a couple of images w/people saying "Look @ that white power signal"

But I've never seen that hand signal used in person or on tv, except for "ok." I don't watch sports, so wouldn't know if it's used in sports.

So this explains it.

[Honeycombe8]

86. Here's a link to an explanation of the beginning of that as a hoax....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ok-sign-not-hate-sign-statement-clarification-adl-a7716556.html

But these things then start to be used for the purpose they were joking about, sometimes.

I saw a reference to O-KKK being part of that. Hence, the "ok" symbol.

[yardwork]

39. Here on DU I see it refuted.

[EffieBlack]

69. It's being refuted right in this thread ...

[yardwork]

75. I know.

[smirkymonkey]

81. I know, and it's sickening.

[Tom Rinaldo]

3. That just means "A, OK". They probably like the service at this bar.

Just kidding. Once upon a time that gesture was a non verbal cue for "Sweet", but that was a while ago. And the Peace sign once meant "V for Victory also." Symbols get recycled and assigned different meanings. Anti-war protestors in the early 70's weren't channeling Winston Churchill when they raised those two fingers aloft. And this crew isn't exactly signalling "peachy keen."

[BigmanPigman]

79. Good point.

[dalton99a]

4. Kick

[Girard442]

5. Whatever the sign may have been in the past, the Reichwingers totally own it now.

Once upon a time the swastika wasn't a symbol of fascism.

That was a long time ago.

[Raster]

7. Thank you!

[volstork]

21. In Central America,

it means "asshole."

Pretty appropriate, if you ask me.

[Caliman73]

40. Yep. Other places too.

The three fingers up are the ASS with the hole at the end. I think that the primary use was to signal OK but its use has changed over the years.

It is definitely used by White Supremacists to signal each other and to deliberately tweak liberals, so that would in context, make it a racist gesture.

[ProudLib72]

45. Not just Central America. It's ASL

[BlancheSplanchnik]

84. 🤟🏾

[Hortensis]

8. You bet. We need to recognize a hate gesture when we see it.

We all also need to remember, though, that millions of people still think it only means "okay."
They don't know a second meaning has morphed. I know a bunch of people who happily live small lives that take little account of the big world, and others (right or wrong as it may be) make a habit of avoiding ugliness and dissension.

[NurseJackie]

9. Of course it is. And those who try to defend it only make themselves look silly.

[Judi Lynn]

37. Absolutely. n/t

[ego_nation]

10. The guy on the right must not be in on it.

He’s doing it backwards.

[EffieBlack]

11. And the second guy from the left seems to be purposely NOT doing it.

But everyone else is happily letting their white supremacist flags fly ...

[MineralMan]

12. I agree. While it can be interpreted in other ways,

it's in wide use as a gang sign for racists. The group in that photo are using it in that way, without a doubt.

[rurallib]

14. " gang sign for racists" - best description I have heard

and the racist white gang is incredibly dangerous.

[MineralMan]

15. That's how I see it.

Those people might call themselves White Nationalists, but they're just ugly racists. That's all they are. Like all gangs, they compensate for their individual cowardice through numbers and weapons.

So, they're throwing gang signs. It's obvious, and no amount of diversion will negate that.

[IronLionZion]

13. Unfortunately, the proud boys do have a few token minorities to claim they're not white nationalist

It pissed me off when I saw their brown and black members on the news.

They allow male minorities who are born in America but maintain violent hatred of immigrants and women.

[oberliner]

16. How the "OK" Symbol Became a Popular Trolling Gesture (from the ADL)

Some good info from the ADL here on this:

https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture?ftag=MSF0951a18

[aggiesal]

29. The 3 extended fingers ...

create the letter W for white!

It's the way I use the number 3 or the OK sign,
so I'm not too please that this simple hand signal
got co-opted into being some white power BS
hand signal.

[oberliner]

42. It is annoying how they co-opted what was once an innocuous gesture

[Blue Owl]

18. This ain't no basketball game

n/t

[malchickiwick]

19. I know, and it sucks! ...

... A college prof, I started noticing (sometime after realizing that the racists had coopted it) that I unconsciously make this gesture when pacing and lecturing and trying to make an especially relevant historical point. It took a while to retrain my unconscious mind, and I am still pissed that thanks to these morons I had to in the first place.

[Ms. Toad]

82. I do that, as well - and in that context it would be possible to make a change without any harm.

In another context in which I use it, it would not.

The first-hand signal that most scuba divers learn is the "OK" hand signal. Join the thumb and index fingers to form a loop and extend the third, fourth, and fifth fingers. This signal can be used as both a question and a response. The "OK" sign is a demand-response signal, meaning that if one diver asks another diver if he is OK, he must respond with either an "OK" signal in return or with the communication that something is wrong. The "OK" hand signal should not be confused with the thumbs-up signal, which in scuba diving means "end the dive."

https://www.thoughtco.com/common-hand-signals-for-scuba-diving-2963222


That symbol literally can mean the difference between life and death - and must be an automatic response (i.e. I can't stop to think, "Oh, wait, I can't use the OK symbol because it means white power . . . now what symbol did we agree on as an alternative?" Because I could wind up dead.

So, while I'll try to modify my habits in my classroom (with resentment that racists have co-opted a perfectly good gesture), I am not willing to risk my life because racists decided to co-opt what is in diving a life-saving gesture .

[EffieBlack]

89. I doubt that, if you're diving, anyone is going to mistake your hand gestures for white supremacist

sign. And, as far as I know, the seas aren't teeming with Proud Boys making the a-ok sign, so you probably aren't in danger of drowning as a result of any underwater confusion.

And since no one is suggesting that decent, non-racist people stop making the A-Ok sign, it's unlikely you'll get thrown into a life-threatening delay if you ever need to use it.

As you said, context is everything. If someone makes that sign naturally, in real time while gesturing and talking, no one is going to think you are flashing the white power sign. But if you're posing for a picture and decide to flash the gesture for the camera when there's really no logical reason to be signalling "A-ok" or ""THREE POINTS!" that's another thing. And since most people can easily tell the difference, you shouldn't find yourself in a bind.

[Ms. Toad]

90. They may well be teeming with Proud Boys

Divers tend to be a pretty conservative crowd But the context would give it away, which is my point.

Photos (as a general rule) contain little clear context - and even when they do not, they are being treated as ironclad proof of the depicted person's political leanings.

The one you linked to is crystal clear - I can't imagine any context that explain it as anything other than an intentional display of a gesture associated with white power. But a cell phone snapshot of me making the OK gesture in class, devoid of the context of me excitedly shouting "Perfect,"? I'm not sure why it would be viewed any differently than any of the other snaps recently discussed as evidence that a variety of people ascribe to white power principles.

[SansACause]

20. The joke was started to troll liberals.

It appears it's working.

[EffieBlack]

23. If you "troll" people by using a gesture that has become widely associated with racists

you, too, just might be a racist.

Check that: You likely ARE a racist. Period.

I'm not aware of any well-meaning non anti-semites who go around giving the Nazi salute and get a pass for it because they're just "trolling" anti-fascists.

People need to stop excusing this as "trolling."

[oberliner]

43. The OK gesture was innocuous for quite a long time until the white power folks co-opted it recently

I can see someone who is out of the loop making the symbol and meaning it in an innocent way without realizing what it has become.

That is obviously not the case in the posted photo, of course.

[EffieBlack]

46. Funny how this gesture keeps turning up in photos of white men and boys who seem to have problems

with minorities - and how rarely black folk seem to innocently use this same gesture in settings outside of a basketball court - but we're supposed to consider the possibility that it's perfectly innocent unless other evidence of racism is apparent.

The "innocent" use of the gesture is so rare that it's not even worth bringing up when discussing its use as a white power symbol. Sometimes holding up one's middle finger can be perfectly innocent, but an innocuous use of this gesture is so uncommon that no one tries to explain it away as perhaps totally innocent when a group of boys gives the finger in a group photo.

But, for some reason, when we're talking about a racist hand gesture - which is much more ominous and troubling than flipping the bird - we have to endure all manner of "don't jump to conclusions ... it COULD be INNOCENT, you know, because three points in basketball or something."

Enough with the "not All hand gestures closely identified with white supremacy ..." defenses.

[oberliner]

54. There are many photos of black people making that gesture outside of a basketball court

Oprah, back in the day:


It's found in several generic stock photos as well:





The innocent use of the gesture is not rare. In fact, I think in the wider world it is much more common than the use of it as a white power symbol (the twitter/internet world is another story).

[EffieBlack]

58. Oprah 30+ years ago. Ok, whatever, Boo.

And since stock photos can be by anyone or about anything but mean little, all of these photos are completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether that sign has become a symbol of white supremacy used by certain white people to make a racist statement.

But it was so nice of you to go through the trouble of searching out "black people making A-Ok sign" to try to prove that white people with racists histories making such a sign in the past few years aren't really signalling their racism, but just might be innocently trying to emulate Oprah Winfrey circa 1985.

[oberliner]

59. Here's Beyonce more recently

Edit to add: The Oprah picture was meant to show that it was a ubiquitous and innocuous symbol for a long time before it was co-opted very recently. Not everyone is hip to the fact that it has been co-opted in this way.

[EffieBlack]

61. You're still completely missing the point, Boo

And still googling "black people making A-OK sign." Or maybe you already had the photos ready to go just in case this ever came up.
Either way, your persistence and consistency are two of the things I love most about you.

[oberliner]

64. How else would one find the pictures other than by Googling?

If Googling revealed no such images, then that would be a strong argument against my claim.

In any case, I would refer you to my initial response to your OP which links to the Anti-Defamation League explanation.

Here it is again:

How the “OK” Symbol Became a Popular Trolling Gesture

https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture?ftag=MSF0951a18

I trust they have pretty good insights into this question, and I will defer to their expertise and encourage you to read the ADL article if you have not already done so.

[EffieBlack]

66. I've already read the article

I also have pretty good insights into this question - surely at least as much as whoever wrote this piece - and I disagree with them.

I have no doubt that this is now being commonly used as a racist gesture, especially since the people we see using it and whom we are discussing, already have a history of racist attitudes and behavior but have cleverly adapted such a gesture so that apologists and naive people who don't seem to be paying attention to how the world has changed in the past few years will step up to make excuses for them.

[EffieBlack]

65. Yes, these people just don't understand that this gesture was "co-opted" so we should stop

wrongfully accusing them of being racist based upon their innocent use of a hand gesture that really is just their effort to emulate Beyonce and Oprah.

[IronLionZion]

24. The klan used it decades ago

I learned about it in school back in the 90s. It's not new

[oberliner]

44. Do you have a link to more information about that?

[IronLionZion]

47. My mistake, it's this similar one

[oberliner]

56. Got it - thanks

Yeah, I've read about that KKK symbol as well.

[Docreed2003]

31. Maybe so...

But every one of these racist, Pepe the frog, deplorable motherfuckers sure do love throwing it up like it means something every fucking chance they get. Yeah they're trolling all right...they own that now.

[Caliman73]

41. Started is the operative word.

Whether it was started to troll or whatever, as in all communication, context is determinant of meaning.

Idiot
Moron
Imbecile

All the above words were clinical words at one point, used as descriptors of the condition of intellectual disability.

Mental Retardation was also used for a long time. Why are they not used anymore? Because they became short hand as insults for people making poor choices as a way to insult people's intelligence. The comparison was to someone with lower intellectual and functional capacity. Retarded meant, at one point that your intellectual and functional capacity was below typical levels in the general population and you needed assistance to perform typical daily functions. Now it is used to mean "Stupid" or just "Bad".

The hand gesture has been used to signify "OK" and "asshole" in the past. White Supremacists decided to use it to troll people to believe it had "White Power" implications. They continue to use it for that purpose. SO...if a person with known ties to White Supremacy is using it, guess what? it is being used as a White Power symbol or code.

We do have to watch out for over reaction, but in the context of the Proud Boys, Pepe the Frog using it, Steven Miller, foolish White Kids throwing it up while others do the Nazi salute or are in the form of a Swastika, they are using it to convey a message...of White Supremacy.

[MineralMan]

48. What appears to be working is a scheme to

sidetrack the discussion. Look at the photo. Do you think those people are "joking?" They are not. They are sending a message to racists and white nationalists that they're with them. Your obvious attempt to divert from that is unsuccessful. Perhaps you can try again later.

[EffieBlack]

50. Exactly

But but ... not ALL people who make a point of using specific gestures used by white supremacists to signal their white supremacy . . .

[MineralMan]

52. Yeah, "whatabout" that?

Popping into the odd thread on occasion is a common method used by those who seek to divert from a discussion. It's pretty transparent, really.

[ZeroSomeBrains]

22. You're absolutely right EffieBlack it is a white power sign

And it's a damn shame cuz it feels wrong now to do that after draining a three in basketball. Basketball players had been doing it for decades and now the white nationalists use it cuz the heil hitler salute is too much of a dead giveaway and this is more low profile. It's basically the sign for neo-nazis who think doing this sign won't get you fired at work. Hopefully people will start to pick up on what the sign means when they use it.

[MicaelS]

25. Unfortunately, I believe you are correct.

As long as these scumbags don't hijack the thumbs up sign I will be fine.

[gtar100]

26. It used to simply mean "ok". Now?

Nazis and racists ruin everything they touch. Like a disease. How they can stand to think that way, I'll never be able to relate to.

[TwistOneUp]

27. They all need

Some "intense discipline". Affiant further sayeth naught.

[Roland99]

28. If it's on a basketball court, it's a sign of a three pt shot

There are some times when it just means Ok

That pic of Roger ain’t Ok!

[Gothmog]

32. It is clearly a white power sign

[Grasswire2]

33. That photo was taken in Salem, Oregon a couple of years ago.

Proud Boys.

I captured it then. Disgusting.

[Power 2 the People]

34. They are disgusting.

[magicarpet]

96. Boys will be boys,...

Fucking Nazi will be and act like Fucking Nazis. That is all they know,.. that is all they do,... except during down time. When down time comes they masturbate with visions of swastikas floating around in their warped and demented heads.

Achtung,... USA, USA, USA !

[Kingofalldems]

35. Oh no! Covington defenders claim that's the 3-point signal!!!11!!!

So apparently the Proud Boys and Stone are just basketball fans.

[Codeine]

38. In the very limited context of a basketball game

it really is harmless. At no other point would I be willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

[EffieBlack]

53. I can't believe that people are responding to a photo showing a well-known racist posing with

a members of a well-known racist group in which they are flashing a hand sign commonly flashed by white supremacists by claiming to not be sure whether the gesture is REALLY racist or poking fun at liberals.

REALLY, people?

[Iggo]

57. We must wait for all the evidence!

[EffieBlack]

60. Did you look at ALL of the pictures?

Oprah Winfrey made the gesture in the 1980s. So no racism to see here. Move along and stop being so divisive!

[Iggo]

63. Also, racists in blackface flashing white-power signs at basketball games aren't being racist.

And black people use the N-word all the time.

So there.

[Hekate]

36. Thugs displaying their gang sign. I'm sure their mothers are so proud.

[pintobean]

49. I'm sticking with the The Anti-Defamation League

https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture?ftag=MSF0951a18

[EffieBlack]

51. You do that

[Rorey]

55. Individual 1

does it all the time

[Alhena]

72. It is, but I think people can innocently make that sign

I mean, sometimes it's clear it's intentional, but I'm honestly not sure that if I were videotaped walking around, I'd never make that sign. Even if a person does intend to make the sign, it can also mean "ok."

[EffieBlack]

74. There's a difference between innocently making that sign

And making a point of posing for it and photographs in the way we've seen recently. The latter is neither innocent nor unintentional. It's intended to send a message

[cbdo2007]

77. symbols are in the eye of the beholder

the only reason this is a white power sign is because people have started recognizing it as a white power sign. If we ignored them and said, why the hell are these guys using the OK sign so much??? Then it would lose it's power and be nothing.

I used this sign today to let someone know they did an OK job at something. Neither them, nor I interpreted it as a white power sign.

[EffieBlack]

78. People didn't suddenly and randomly start "interpreting" this as a white power symbol

It's a white power symbol because the people flashing it intend it to be.

And you prove that very point. You made the sign without intending it to be a supremacist sign and, because the people you gestured had no reason to think you intended it to be such, so they didn't interpret it as one. But assuming symbols are completely one-sided things, the meaning of which are solely determined by those at whom they're directed is naive, at best.

[VOX]

87. The beer-hall setting with black-clad fanboys has a definite Teutonic look.

These fascist fuckers know just enough German history to do a “let’s pretend.”

What scum.

[Celerity]

92. It is hardly a German style beer hall.

It's a cheesy Salem, Oregon hotel wine bar and resto. Fred Perry's are British shirts, totally mainstream, like Polo in the US. Less that 1% of the time are the worn by white supremacists. They were worn by mods in the 1960's, and non racist skins back then as well The Nazi skins just copied the trad look in the late 1970's and 1980's, and the Proud Boy assholes are just riffing off that.

https://www.bentleysgrill.com/

https://www.fredperry.com/

[VOX]

93. Thanks for nazi-splaining.

Of course it’s not a real “German-style beer hall.” And of course, these punks aren’t clad in authentic Nazi uniforms.

But when it comes to my commenting on these miserable, misguided little assholes, please allow for some hyperbole.

[Celerity]

94. Accusing me of nazi-splaining is pure rot

Ridiculous.

[Aussie105]

88. Hand signals

always have a cultural context.

If I raise my arm outstretched and flap my hand about, I'm waving to someone.
If I have a rigid wrist with fingers outstretched, it becomes a Nazi salute.
If I put on one black glove and clench my fist, it becomes a Black Power salute.

So, be careful out there, when you use a gesture you think is harmless. Especially when visiting different cultures.

Avoid the 'OK' sign. But is a thumbs up signal still ok?

[McCamy Taylor]

91. We should start interpreting it as "It's not gay if it's a three way."

Three fingers and an okay sign.

That would stop this nonsense fast.