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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBernie Sanders attacks Democrat focus on 'gay, black, Latino' candidates
My main belief is that we need to bring together a coalition of peopleof black and white and Latino and Asian-American and Native-Americanaround a progressive agenda which is prepared to take on an extraordinarily powerful ruling class in this country.
That is my view. Many of my opponents do not hold that view, and they think that all that we need is people who are candidates who are black or white, who are black or Latino or woman or gay, regardless of what they stand for, that the end result is diversity.
[link:https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/01/25/bernie-sanders-gay-black-latino-diversity/|
Heh. This is the same problem I have with Corbyn in the UK - a certain part of the left wing movement does not understand the need for identity politics because they are in and of themselves from the most privileged section of our societies... it is a false dichotomy that if you raise the living standards for some, all will benefit equally...different interventions are needed in different communities...
Mike Nelson
(9,990 posts)
personally, I think the winning strategy is to court the so-called "gay, black, Latino" voters. Obama and Hillary had inclusion in nearly every speech. Even some Republicans were including the "inclusive language" - but The Donald dropped it in favor of portraying these groups as negative. I hope Bernie continues with the positive route.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,128 posts)My main belief is that we need to bring together a coalition of peopleof black and white and Latino and Asian-American and Native-Americanaround a progressive agenda which is prepared to take on an extraordinarily powerful ruling class in this country."
dawg day
(7,947 posts)That kind of ignores the fact that the coalition already exists as the Democratic Party, without him doing the "bringing it together".
The Democratic Party is not by any means perfect or unified or anything. It is, however, a coalition of a whole lot of different people, and that actually happened without Bernie Sanders (who, uh, isn't actually even a member of that group).
He is not the one who is going to determine what the "agenda" is, and he doesn't own the "progressive agenda"-- in fact, as has been happening all along, the women and minorities and LGBTQ people have been merrily going along changing all sorts of things without him ordering them around.
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)Maru Kitteh
(28,348 posts)Fuck that noise.
obamanut2012
(26,188 posts)wtaf
agingdem
(7,875 posts)He's not a Democrat ... we need new people..new ideas...not an old white guy (I'm 70) spewing the same devisive crap
TNNurse
(6,933 posts)I will be 70 later this year. We need new energy. Now the Senate can use a wise and experienced leader like Pelosi. The House will benefit from the combo of her experience and youth of new members. The Senate is stuck presently with a person experienced at being wrong about everything.
violetpastille
(1,483 posts)I agree with everything else!
rgbecker
(4,835 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)This will probably get alerted and hidden too.
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)That's exactly what's wrong with him, and why I will work to make sure he doesn't make it to Super Tuesday.
BamaRefugee
(3,488 posts)Apollyonus
(812 posts)his gains including a lake-front mansion.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)All we need are people who are ... black or Latino or woman or gay, regardless of what they stand for?
Really? Ive never heard that. Like, Ben Carson would be ok because hes black?
I think hes saying, my idea of progressive is the only correct one (I alone can fix it) and everyone else is insufficiently educated about the blah blah blah.
Bernie has nothing to add to the conversatiion at this point. Weve heard his entire shtick a thousand times, and its the same shtick hes been spouting since 1971. The 1%, the banks, the elites in Washington. Thats all hes got.
Hes toast before it even starts.
Exactly. regardless of what they stand for here come the same old smears...only he can dictate what people stand for.
mcar
(42,474 posts)"Identity politics."
emulatorloo
(44,274 posts)Fortunately we have many wonderful Opponents running
Apollyonus
(812 posts)apcalc
(4,465 posts)We share identities, ie we have common understandings of our lives, our problems and issues we face as workers ,women, POC, seniors, families, the disabled, etc. That unites us as we move forward to make lives better for all . That stuff matters.
I find that Sanders gets economic issues, and some health concerns. I also find that he doesnt really get matters of discrimination, and feels we need to see beyond that.
Imo we need candidates who get the entire picture.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Buckeyeblue
(5,505 posts)However, diverse candidates will not win if there campaign is all about them being diverse.
They have to speak to the issues. Let everyone else speak to a specific candidates diversity. But the candidate, herself/himself, should rarely bring it up. That is what Obama did. And it worked.
There are to many external factors to try to dissect the Clinton campaign from the stand point of how they handled diversity. I think they handled it well.
But it comes down to the issues. Regardless of what you look like, you have to be able to connect on the issues.
Response to Buckeyeblue (Reply #8)
Post removed
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)he's not gay, black, or Latino.
comradebillyboy
(10,191 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Farmer-Rick
(10,242 posts)I know you only copied the headline but Democratic is an adjective and Democrat is a noun and used to diminish the Democratic party.
It's not you fault the writer doesn't understand the proper use of the English language...being British and all that.
Squinch
(51,090 posts)insult, but I choose to acknowledge their schoolyard imbecilic childishness in that effort and nothing more.
I am a proud Democrat, and will always be a proud Democrat.
When the word is not used grammatically correctly, as in "Democrat focus" instead of "Democratic focus" I don't think it diminishes the Democratic party or Democrats in any way.
We should not hand our name over to them.
Farmer-Rick
(10,242 posts)You have done half their job for them.
They are trying, and it seems pretty well accomplished, to normalize Democrat as an adjective to emphasizes the RAT over the democracy we stand for. By eliminating the Democratic, the part of the name that implies a democratic government, the democracy that people have died for, they have turned the name into just a simple label or thing. Democrat is NOT the singularly best form of government human kind has ever evolved. Democrat is NOT a goal of equality and fairness for all. Democrat is not a process that is all inclusive. It is not a proud party, it is one person, one thing and not a group.
They are NOT just trying to rename our party to sound as if we are only one person, they are trying to take the democracy out of it too.
Squinch
(51,090 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I can never support someone who says things like that.
PunkinPi
(4,882 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Here's a transcript that may help some folks who can't easily view the embedded video, or who like to cut and paste exact quotes. Hillary spoke very eloquently, and clearly. She's not 'rehashing' (as some have claimed).
Now I can understand why some might want to avoid the topic completely and sweep aside the shameful behavior we witnessed... but what Hillary is doing here is sounding the alarm. It's another warning. She's telling us what happened before, and she's explaining how it's happening again.
Sadly, the same misogynists and other assorted "haters" are trying to silence her again. Her message is important. Her warning is sincere. Now more than ever we need to take her seriously and not sweep it under the rug with false accusations of "rehashing".
"And that feeds-in, I think, to the whole sexism and misogyny part of this campaign. I had large groups of supporters who had to be private because if they lifted their head up online, if they were, you know, responding on a YouTube comment chain, or on Twitter to something, they would just attack! And the attacks were so sexist about "well you're supporting a woman cause you're a woman," and they just never really got to the facts."
Pauley: "They're called---these are the Bernie bros, so called---"
Clinton: "Well, yes. And they're still out there. And I also make the point that, look--"
Pauley: "Why give them, why give them material? Why not let them concentrate on the Trump administration?"
Clinton: "Well, I'm concentrating on the Trump administration. And I'm proud to be a Democrat. I've been a Democrat for decades. I have supported Democrats. I've worked for Democrats."
"Bernie's not a Democrat. And that's not a slam. That's what he says himself."
"And I think a lot of what he churned up on the primary campaign was very hurtful in the general election against me. And I see him doing the same thing. I see him, you know, with his supporters, he doesn't disown the things they say about, you know, some of my favorite Democrats. People like Kamala Harris who is out there speaking up and speaking out, and she's being attacked from the left."
"Enough! You know, if you don't want to support Democrats then go somewhere else!"
PunkinPi
(4,882 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)And I'm still with her!
PunkinPi
(4,882 posts)She sure does and I'm still with her too!
Who better to give advice than the popular vote winner and a woman who went through 2016?
peggysue2
(10,853 posts)That's pretty succinct from someone who knows from experience what this stance looks and sounds like.
We've seen this picture show before.
Apollyonus
(812 posts)mcar
(42,474 posts)to name the candidates who say vote for me because I'm a woman, or Latino.
emulatorloo
(44,274 posts)mcar
(42,474 posts)The media shouldn't allow him to get away with it.
ismnotwasm
(42,027 posts)Who are his opponents?
RandySF
(59,811 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)Oneironaut
(5,547 posts)Hes saying we should look at what people are saying (and is doing self-promotion at the same time).
Im not really a Bernie fan. Whats hes saying here is kind of true. I think its also important to look at peoples views. However, I think his comments are also self-serving.
ismnotwasm
(42,027 posts)We need diverse representation because thats how we hear diverse voices. We just elected a historically diverse congress. They will lead the way.
Bernie is not doing himself any favors here
Of course we need to elect people on merit, but we need to take a good hard look at a system that favors white men. AOC is a example of such diversity, and she loves Bernie from all I can tell. Yet her youth and voice are also inexperienced;she was definitely elected not on political experience but what she was saying, a fresh outlook, and represents diversity
I think Bernie is going to curmudgeon himself right out of the race early with these dog whistles
Oneironaut
(5,547 posts)Its the same as when white people dont understand why we need affirmative action. Everything is fine! Your grades / abilities / etc. should be what matter!
Bernie isnt sincere here. His comments are strategic. His statement is only okay if you ignore why hes saying it. It confirmed my dislike of him, to be honest.
ismnotwasm
(42,027 posts)Hes tossing a wrench in thats for sure.
njhoneybadger
(3,910 posts)Bernie has to bash Democrats to build some kind of Frankenstein voting bloc he thinks he can win with
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)betsuni
(25,815 posts)Johnny2X2X
(19,286 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 26, 2019, 12:20 PM - Edit history (1)
A broad message from the Democratic Party aimed at what it can for the working class is a winning strategy. There is a class war, thats why Trump got so many working people to vote for him. Dems need to run on how Trump failed those working people and how they will not fail them.
David__77
(23,635 posts)It could be quite a steep price, and not one paid by Sanders.
MrGrieves
(315 posts)The guy attacks the democratic party everytine there is a mic in front of his face.
Regardless of that, venomous attacks against him from the "left" will come with a price.
Will there be camps, mocking and despising one another?
It's about more than Sanders. It's also about the many millions of people who voted for him to be the Democratic nominee.
MrGrieves
(315 posts)What venous attacks are you talking about?
David__77
(23,635 posts)Of course, determining what constitutes such a thing is a matter of personal viewpoint. I think that there are ample examples of Sanders being the object of disrespectful nicknames and insults.
MrGrieves
(315 posts)And are we talking about everyday people or are we talking about actual politicians pushing this? Because HERE we are talking about Bernie himself saying the things that he says. If we are equating everyday people's statements to balance Bernie's own attacks on news outlets I think that's not a fair comparison. He is the driving force behind the division that we are seeing. And that just isn't even debatable. I don't really see the same fro democratic politicians. Unless you can show me where democratic politicians attack him I don't think there is any comparison.
Apollyonus
(812 posts)but he should stop acting like a prima donna ..... he is just one candidate and we have a couple dozen who also have good ideas. He should stop thinking of himself as god's gift to the Democratic party to which he doesn't belong.
emulatorloo
(44,274 posts)and can actually produce concrete proposals. I like Bernie but he isnt the only person out there who is left-liberal progressive.
P.S. quoting him isnt a venomous attacking, nor is examining his voting record.
David__77
(23,635 posts)I'm not referring to quoting him or to examining his record as such.
emulatorloo
(44,274 posts)mcar
(42,474 posts)But if Democrats criticize him for it, they are "venomous" and will come with a price?
What's the price?
Is this one of those threats I've seen here and elsewhere - be nice to us or we won't vote for Democrats?
David__77
(23,635 posts)And I did not say what it's OK for Sanders to do.
I think that disrespectful nicknames and insults don't tend to generate good will and unity. The absence of those things can be costly.
The related issue is whether or not one considers Sanders to be a political enemy. If so, I understand that some people may think that disrespectful nicknames and insults and just fine and good.
mcar
(42,474 posts)Conserva-dem? Corporatist? Wall St Democrat?
I've heard and seen those insults here and elsewhere toward Democratic candidates.
David__77
(23,635 posts)I would say that calling someone a "fucking parasite," for instance, is a disrespectful insult. If I saw that term applied to someone, I would consider that to be a disrespectful insult. Others may disagree, and may even think it's just fine and good.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)but the term "parasite" is, I believe, applicable here.
We are discussing someone who has not only refused to join the Democratic party, but has publicly derided it for decades, even though it is the party that actually accomplishes their aims in Congress.
We are discussing someone who "joined" the party for a campaign, but re-registered as an Independent even before the election.
We are discussing someone who continues to attack Democratic candidates, but is now planning to once again use the party for their own campaign.
So yes, I believe that "parasite" is a reasonable interpretation.
David__77
(23,635 posts)...
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)David__77
(23,635 posts)You think that he is a parasite. I understand. Thank you for the reply.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)but, unfortunately, he changed my mind.
I say this as someone who was a fan of his for decades before hardly anyone outside of Vermont had ever heard of him.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Apollyonus
(812 posts)Minorities form a vast majority of the Democratic base. Attacking it from his privileged white perch is anathema to the excitement, hopes and aspirations of the Democratic voters.
People feel their own injustices with a passion and are not just looking for a bigger paycheck. Bernie is completely tone deaf to that.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and focused on capitalism, while not recognizing that racism and misogyny are foundational to capitalism.
Me.
(35,454 posts)and yes, it will cost him. You think he'd learn.
David__77
(23,635 posts)I think that disrespectful insults and nicknames can be venomous. I think that there are plenty of examples of such disrespectful insults and nicknames being applied to Sanders by others.
Cha
(298,074 posts)David__77
(23,635 posts)...
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)David__77
(23,635 posts)...
stonecutter357
(12,699 posts)David__77
(23,635 posts)Some people's "price" may be a reward - the enjoyment of issuing disrespectful insults and the like. If one is into that sort of thing, I'm sure lots of fun may lie ahead.
Apollyonus
(812 posts)whilst Bernie can get away with attacking our fine candidates from his privileged white perch.
David__77
(23,635 posts)I do think that the some things said constitute disrespectful insults.
I do think that, should Sanders run as a Democrat, the DNC will treat him the same as other Democratic candidates.
Apollyonus
(812 posts)and steal their info?
David__77
(23,635 posts)...
Apollyonus
(812 posts)until Bernie came on the scene and actively mirrored Hillary's compartment and immediately the attacks started on Hillary's speeches, Clinton foundation etc. smearing Hillary as a corrupt candidate.
I don't believe in coincidences.
Cha
(298,074 posts)fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)"Fact Check: The only arguable opponent of Sanders who has said anything like this is Stormy Daniels attorney Michael Avenatti, who told Time Magazine that the 2020 Democratic nominee better be a white male because When you have a white male making the arguments, they carry more weight.'
lapucelle
(18,410 posts)and not one paid by Sanders."
What does that even mean? It almost sounds like a threat.
Apollyonus
(812 posts)It sounded like "We Bernie supporters will either stay at home or vote for Trump if our messiah is criticized in any way."
If I am wrong, please correct me and tell us what the "price" is.
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)Apollyonus
(812 posts)Bernie supporters will stay home? Vote for Trump? What?
TexasBushwhacker
(20,256 posts)when the poor and middle class all fight with each other instead of coming after them with pitchforks. That is what Bernie is talking about. We must UNITE against the 1%.
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)Greybnk48
(10,182 posts)back to the left where we belong. He did that. Bernie Sanders. And it's DEMOCRATIC, not Democrat. FFS.
David__77
(23,635 posts)I don't think that "Medicare for all" would not be a watchword at this time had he not run for president. It's certainly not he alone who did that - plenty of others also did a lot. I do think his campaign had an important impact in changing the conversation.
The rejection of Reaganite economic orthodoxy won't come easily.
Cha
(298,074 posts)...
Cha
(298,074 posts)at140
(6,110 posts)The Democratic Party is most progressive today, and lot of credit goes to Bernie.
Apollyonus
(812 posts)at140
(6,110 posts)than during JFK (tax cut for businesses), LBJ (Vietnam war), RFK (never president).
Don't get me wrong, I loved JFK & RFK. For their era, they were progressive.
Beto, Kamala, Elizabeth etc are much more progressive than old timers.
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)Apollyonus
(812 posts)Oh brother
Bernie took it into an unrealistic fantasy of progresivism ... not anything that could be accomplished.
mindfulNJ
(2,367 posts)also had a hand in that.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Putting up with the same agonizingly backwards and loud viewpoint from his fan base will sure fucking suck though
Evergreen Emerald
(13,071 posts)That did not go well for Democrats. I want to know his purpose, and who he is working for.
allgood33
(1,584 posts)But i will voter for ANY real Democrat over Trump, that's for sure.
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)violetpastille
(1,483 posts)It peels off a significant number of otherwise Democratic voters so that they don't vote for the Democratic candidate, and quite loudly.
If that were the object, going for the white vote is a proven strategy.
greatauntoftriplets
(175,775 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)Every time I see this quote I get more and more pissed off.
He needs to name these many opponents.
lancelyons
(988 posts)I think we should not pick candidates by focusing on Diversity alone. So I agree with Bernie.
I dont like some of his other ideas and how his supporters tend to rip at Dems.
However, the Democratic Party should not focus on just Diverse candidates but any and all candidates that can get the job done irregardless of their race, religion, sex, etc, etc.
MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)He is basically accusing his many opponents of some made up bullshit.
mcar
(42,474 posts)Please name anyone who ever said, vote for me because I'm a woman, Latino, etc.
This is a strawman argument.
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)Please dont fall for it again. We need to unite and get behind whomever we decide to be our candidate. Lets unite against Trump and the GOP, not liberals.
dawg day
(7,947 posts)I was there around then (same school even). They had utterly no interest in understanding the role of gender and racial discrimination on American inequality. I remember even way back then, when the women's movement and the civil rights movement were creating real change for millions of people, the socialists there were angrily arguing with each other about some arcane point in Das Kapital. The Trotskyists against the Maoists against the Leninists! They seldom got anything accomplished at all. (But they had a blazingly rhetoricked newsletter.) I don't think Sanders has changed much, though he's toned down the whole Marxist thing (most people do as they age, LOL). He still doesn't think the diversity of the US makes it somewhat different than the 19th Century European economy and culture.
Just calling it "identity politics" when we're talking about the vast majority of people (and of working class people)-- well. It's a strangely strained understanding of human culture, and shatters rather quickly under pressure.
And at the end is usually the rueful "realization" that only older white men (of the right mindset, of course) can lead, because, you know, they're the only ones "beyond identity politics."
David__77
(23,635 posts)Sanders strikes me as a bit of a "workerist" or class reductionist. Some of those who are very strongly opposed to him strike me as akin to Maoists. Maoists, after all, said that the principal contradiction in the world wasn't between classes - it was between "imperialism" and the "oppressed peoples." Some Maoists, for instance, argued (and argue) that the US white working class is basically bourgeoisified and functions parasitically relative to the oppressed people, including black people in the US, for instance.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)This kind of shit give birth to the women's movement. Guess maybe we should thank those old wankers.
jalan48
(13,916 posts)"In 1967, the first Women's Liberation organizations formed in major cities like Berkeley, Boston, Chicago, New York City and Toronto.[101] Quickly organizations spread across both countries."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_liberation_movement
"In 1968, Sanders moved to Vermont because he had been "captivated by rural life." After his arrival there he worked as a carpenter,[30] filmmaker, and writer[45] who created and sold "radical film strips" and other educational materials to schools.[46]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders
I'm not sure what women's movement existed at your college in the early 60's when Bernie would have been in school.
I attended a major West Coast university in the late 60's and remember when the women's movement started on our campus.
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)Here's one...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight
RandySF
(59,811 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 27, 2019, 06:49 AM - Edit history (1)
Sorry, Bernie. I'm not buying it.
Apollyonus
(812 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)I think he still hasn't gotten over the fact that President Obama got the PPACA enacted into law.
JI7
(89,289 posts)cgralow
(24 posts)Next!
Cha
(298,074 posts)2012.
DFW
(54,506 posts)"Many" of his opponents??
Just like the usual Fox tactic of claiming that "many people are asking" when no one is asking.
Our eventual nominee doesn't "need" to be anything but smart, broadly appealing, and really good. I haven't heard anything else from serious Democrats.
betsuni
(25,815 posts)During an interview he says "I don't want to see the American people voting for the lesser of two evils" and George Stephanopolous asks him if that's how he would describe Hillary Clinton against Donald Trump. "Well if you look -- No, I wouldn't describe it, but that's what the American people are saying."
at140
(6,110 posts)Because it is 180 degrees opposite of the corporate favoring republicans. As for diversity, it should be equal opportunity driven instead of quota driven. No Race, gender etc should have privilege over others. Just give every individual equal opportunity to excel & succeed.
pnwmom
(109,025 posts)and not caring about issues.
He accused Hillary voters of that last time, and he won't make any inroads in that group by continuing to push that wrong-headed view.
at140
(6,110 posts)During 2016 election cycle. Forget the past and look forward to harmonious 2020.
pnwmom
(109,025 posts)It sounds like a backhanded way of attacking Kamala Harris, Julian Castro, Kristin Gillibrand, and Corey Booker.
at140
(6,110 posts)And I am 100% opposed to attacking ANY democrats, including Tulsi Gabbard,
Just stick to stating why candidate you like is best.
Cha
(298,074 posts)TomCADem
(17,390 posts)Bernie must be getting annoyed that young latina woman progressive is getting all the attention.
dgauss
(885 posts)His entire career has been principled and consistent, which is one of the reasons he comes off as an inconvenient gadfly.
One of his main points has been that big changes come about only when masses of people demand that change. Cortez is a politician that can help change the narrative on the very issues that Sanders has been pushing for many years. But you suggest Sanders is some kind of narcissist who is annoyed that someone else is getting some credit for doing exactly what he hoped his fellow politicians would do.
You're just making this up.
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)Apollyonus
(812 posts)He is better off staying at home.
Our party is far far more diverse than the world he lives in.
He thinks a fat paycheck will solve all injustices and he is 100% wrong.
betsuni
(25,815 posts)As one Democrat put it.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)That the only reason people voted for Obama is because he was black. The exact same fucking thing.
If I were to post what BS said here my post would rightly be hidden.
But who is surprised. Remember, his delegates booed John Lewis at the last Democratic Convention. The John Lewis who has his head bashed in walking across the Edmund Pettus Bridge. Heard about it? They booed him on National TV. While Bernie say there grinning like a man enjoying his revenge. Ill be damned if I let readers here forget it. Unforgivable.
allgood33
(1,584 posts)SaschaHM
(2,897 posts)No one on a debate stage is going to let him pull this crap and his support has waned, not increased since 2016. HRC won 2016 by getting the people who disliked her immensely after the 2008 primary to come back around to supporting her to make up for the ground that she loss with certain bases. The same can't be said for Bernie.
Apollyonus
(812 posts)He will promise free houses to everyone, free PhDs, decent wages for anyone who wants to just stay home and play video games. He will come up with something. Of course, none of it will have any chance of being enacted into law but he will again have throngs of people who want those type of benefits.
But worse, he will smear and malign all the wonderful Democratic candidates in the process.
It almost feels like his Tad Devine's mission from Putin is "win or let Trump win."
Squinch
(51,090 posts)with that "WTF??" look.
For some reason, I just thought about that guy.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)standards of some, all will benefit equally..." Of course if you raise it for some not all will benefit equally. Who is suggesting we raise it for some? We're attempting to raise the entire baseline. And who is saying that's all it takes? You are killing these strawmen....go easy on them. They're made of straw man...