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marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:00 PM Dec 2018

The illusion that one person is our problem.

The American system is broken. Many of us can see that. But the reason why is not obvious. We are focused on Trump as the one who broke it. It's easy to focus on him, because the problems became quite obvious once his candidacy gained traction and he got elected. So it's understandable why we focus on him. And understandable why many people think things will go back to "normal" once he is gone.

That's an illusion. The system was already broken before he started. It's the broken system that allowed him to win. And after he is gone, the system will still be broken. The racists will still be racists. The anti-democratic politicians in Wisconsin, North Carolina, Georgia etc., will continue their work and teach others how to do it. Fox News and right wing radio will continue broadcasting. The 1% will still try to stack things in their favor. Russia will still fight it's propaganda war against Western democracies.

The only solution is to reform the entire system. Things will never go back the way they were. The world has changed too much. We are going to need a new set of norms to restore the rule of law and protect ourselves from Russia. We will need to address the gross inequality of wealth. We will need to reformat our economy to combat climate change. We will need to win the hearts and minds of our fellow Americans. That's all a long term project

Impeachment would be nice, but it can't be our focus. Our focus has to be on reforming the system. Many societies have survived bad rulers. But society that need reform and fail end up smashed on the reefs of history.

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The illusion that one person is our problem. (Original Post) marylandblue Dec 2018 OP
reform isn't the solution, the solution is the 50% of americans who sit on their asses beachbum bob Dec 2018 #1
How do you know how those people would vote? marylandblue Dec 2018 #4
Excellent point. And if the media they consume spouts the "wrong" way, they'll continue to follow it erronis Dec 2018 #35
Exactly. Rizen Dec 2018 #34
+ 1,000,000,000 Cary Dec 2018 #41
I believe that if we tackled the two root problems Dustlawyer Dec 2018 #61
I agree but impeachment will be required manor321 Dec 2018 #2
Yes it's really bad, but why is impeachment required? marylandblue Dec 2018 #7
Impeachment will not fix the problem America has... Ferrets are Cool Dec 2018 #44
We should bring the crimes out into the open marylandblue Dec 2018 #54
Totally agree, Lawrence O'Donnell makes that point strongly pdsimdars Dec 2018 #48
He's a symptom for sure ProudLib72 Dec 2018 #3
Yes, the fact that so many people like it this way is a big problem. marylandblue Dec 2018 #8
Well sure, reform the system but impeachment should be FRONT and CENTER Eliot Rosewater Dec 2018 #5
Impeachment will not stop him, only conviction can do that. marylandblue Dec 2018 #11
Imprisoning for 2 or 3 years armed robbers wont stop them from doing it Eliot Rosewater Dec 2018 #17
Putting someone on trial through a corrupt system only encourages them marylandblue Dec 2018 #20
This message was self-deleted by its author Eliot Rosewater Dec 2018 #22
Uhh, have a nice day...sigh Eliot Rosewater Dec 2018 #23
+1. Dump and his allies won't be incapacitated by a mere impeachment erronis Dec 2018 #36
I agree we should impeach if only becaue of the symbolic value of it The Liberal Lion Dec 2018 #28
Nature will probably put an end to many of humanity's problems in the next century or so anarch Dec 2018 #6
One of current issues is our inability to plan for the future marylandblue Dec 2018 #15
This will be a Golden Era Boomer Dec 2018 #59
Without the 45 to 50+% of voters who are fine with the likes of trump, we wouldn't be here. Hoyt Dec 2018 #9
Yep. marylandblue Dec 2018 #12
The illusion that since he's not the entire problem, he's not the problem in front of us. Iggo Dec 2018 #10
He is only part of the problem, and only a symptom not a root cause marylandblue Dec 2018 #26
McConnell is worse for the country. Agree. Pence will continue the ravaging. erronis Dec 2018 #38
It's a lot easier to impeach a President than to change the Constitution. MineralMan Dec 2018 #13
Correct, we can't change the Constitution at this time marylandblue Dec 2018 #31
Yes. Our elections every two and four years are the final checks and balances. MineralMan Dec 2018 #33
The system shouldn't be considered "broken." gulliver Dec 2018 #14
Agree with this OP that things need to change and your refinement marked50 Dec 2018 #16
Great response and agree with enhanced maintenance. Been a long time since erronis Dec 2018 #39
Let me expand a bit because I've thought about this a lot... NRaleighLiberal Dec 2018 #18
The Indians viewed the world in the scope of seven generations. CrispyQ Dec 2018 #24
Seven generations vs. quarterly profits. What a great distinction. erronis Dec 2018 #40
How much of it is Russia instigating? lostnfound Dec 2018 #29
Yes, it's a bigger problem than just the US, but leadership has to come from somewhere marylandblue Dec 2018 #50
Nicely stated. Firestorm49 Dec 2018 #19
Yes, we have a system that gives grossly disproportionate power to a minority Maven Dec 2018 #21
I agree with everything you said The Liberal Lion Dec 2018 #25
+1 for making me think. I'll have to do more of that (which is hard.) erronis Dec 2018 #42
That reminds me of Phoenix rising in a way, BigmanPigman Dec 2018 #51
Well I mostly agree with you, but individual action is never enough. marylandblue Dec 2018 #52
Democratic Party has minor ailments but the GOP is malignant to the core lostnfound Dec 2018 #27
I say Trump is the symptom Alpeduez21 Dec 2018 #30
"The anti-democratic politicians in Wisconsin, North Carolina, Georgia" BadgerMom Dec 2018 #32
We'll know if our nation is salvageable PeeJ52 Dec 2018 #37
Do we have any examples of countries that have reformed themselves from within, erronis Dec 2018 #43
Poland, 1990. nt trev Dec 2018 #53
South Africa. marylandblue Dec 2018 #55
That's a great example. Truth and Reconciliation. Still some bumps on the road. erronis Dec 2018 #56
yes, it is short-sighted and/or blinkered to think everything would be fine shanny Dec 2018 #45
good post. nt wiggs Dec 2018 #46
I think it extremely important that Congress revisit the sins of each and every enabler pecosbob Dec 2018 #47
+ 1,000,000,000,000,000 BigmanPigman Dec 2018 #49
Our educational system is in tatters UpInArms Dec 2018 #57
And when they do make to HS graduation... Pluvious Dec 2018 #62
Or, the other option of UpInArms Dec 2018 #65
He is the stark caricature of the problem. JudyM Dec 2018 #58
It's the gop being run by big business, and even more reason we have to impeach. lindysalsagal Dec 2018 #60
And none of those reforms will stick or matter if we don't reform ecstatic Dec 2018 #63
You've got a point, it may be too late, but I think we are hanging in the balance marylandblue Dec 2018 #64
"The only solution is to reform the entire system." elocs Dec 2018 #66
Well, let's be real in a different way. marylandblue Dec 2018 #68
The struggle continues lunatica Dec 2018 #67
 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
1. reform isn't the solution, the solution is the 50% of americans who sit on their asses
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:02 PM
Dec 2018

when elections happen. Believe me if 85% of americans voted, we wouldn't have the mess we have. Period

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
4. How do you know how those people would vote?
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:07 PM
Dec 2018

Last edited Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:02 PM - Edit history (1)

We have another unconscious illusion - the people are always right. So if the people just got up and voted, they would vote the right way. But the people can be wrong. All those non voters might vote for someone worse than Trump. You just don't know the answer and can't know until they actually vote.

erronis

(15,795 posts)
35. Excellent point. And if the media they consume spouts the "wrong" way, they'll continue to follow it
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:55 PM
Dec 2018

Dustlawyer

(10,502 posts)
61. I believe that if we tackled the two root problems
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 02:00 PM
Dec 2018

that seem to be at the bottom of the hyper-partisanship we have been experiencing we could restore Representative Democracy.

Legalized bribery of our politicians is one root cause of our situation. Our politicians represent Donors, not constituents. When we judge our candidates based on how much in donations (bribes) they have raised we are doing this wrong. Real campaign finance reform is what is needed. More candidates doing what Beto has done will help!

Propaganda in our media really got going after the demise of Walter Cronkite. Fox News and the rise of RW radio started the programming of the electorate. These Trump supporters are nothing but “programmed” cult members. Reform in this area could eventually lower the rank partisanship we currently suffer from.

The questions I do not have the answers to are how to make this change come about. I suppose at the end of the day enough Americans will need to recognize the problems and demand the changes necessary.

 

manor321

(3,344 posts)
2. I agree but impeachment will be required
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:03 PM
Dec 2018

I don't disagree with anything you've said but the Russia affair is really, really bad.

It's so bad that the House will be forced to take up impeachment. They won't have any other option.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
7. Yes it's really bad, but why is impeachment required?
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:14 PM
Dec 2018

Maybe it will be when all the information becomes public, but only if the Trumpsters in red states turn against him. That's the only way the Senate will convict him. And there is no guarantee those votes will change their minds. The purpose of all of Trump's tweets is to subvert the rule of law in the minds of his supporters.

He is not being stupid. His only salvation is to make his supporters believe it really is a witch hunt. So far he has succeeded, despite all the large and growing amount of information we already have. There is no guarantee that more information will change minds.

That's how a personality cult works. Truth becomes what the leader says it is. As long as the leader can maintain that illusion, he is safe.

Ferrets are Cool

(21,148 posts)
44. Impeachment will not fix the problem America has...
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:16 PM
Dec 2018

but, and to me this is a BIG but....are we supposed to just sit here and grit our teeth while a KNOWN CRIMINAL sits in the Oval Office? Of course, your answer "could" be that we have already been in that situation when we allowed a War Criminal to serve out his term of office....not only serve out his term, but vote him into another 4 years.
So, yeah, we are probably farked as a Nation.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
54. We should bring the crimes out into the open
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 05:22 PM
Dec 2018

Congressional investigations may break the logjam on impeachment. Perhaps a series of indictments and pleas bargains of every senior Trump official will do it. But we can't count on that.

Meanwhile, we need to get on with reform work. I think Pelosi understands this quite well. That's why HR 1 is an anti-corruption bill.

 

pdsimdars

(6,007 posts)
48. Totally agree, Lawrence O'Donnell makes that point strongly
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:40 PM
Dec 2018

You can't allow a president to commit a felony with no consequences. It is their duty to do it. Even if it doesn't end up with removal from office, they can't just let it slide. If they do, then that will be the new normal.

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
3. He's a symptom for sure
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:05 PM
Dec 2018

But it goes deeper than a broken system. Everyone who supports the corruption (the deplorables) are enablers of the broken system.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
8. Yes, the fact that so many people like it this way is a big problem.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:18 PM
Dec 2018

And there is no direct solution. There are some things we can do, but as long as enough people actually like it this way, we will continue to decline.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,242 posts)
5. Well sure, reform the system but impeachment should be FRONT and CENTER
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:11 PM
Dec 2018

because

a. he is a criminal and if he is above the law then all future prez will be also

and

b. he is actively, right now, harming and soon will be GREATLY harming Americans and others either directly or indirectly if not stopped as he and Bolton will start a war if not stopped

We are where we are and people are being hurt, now...everywhere.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
11. Impeachment will not stop him, only conviction can do that.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:26 PM
Dec 2018

If we can't convict, he will consider it a victory and continue to cause his damage. Even if we do impeach and convict him, there is a very high probability of electing future criminals. He has shown that an evil idiot can get election. Imagine what a evil genius could do. What if someone who actually knew the law and didn't confess to crimes on twitter ran for office?

We don't have to imagine. Vladimir Putin already did it in Russia. We have stronger institutional safeguards against someone like that, but they are not unbreakable.

Impeachment is broken. Voting rights are under attack. DOJ and the courts still function, but they have been weakened. It wouldn't take much to break them all.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,242 posts)
17. Imprisoning for 2 or 3 years armed robbers wont stop them from doing it
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:53 PM
Dec 2018

again when they get out, still have to do it.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
20. Putting someone on trial through a corrupt system only encourages them
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:08 PM
Dec 2018

John Gotti went through multiple trials before they convicted him. He bribed and intimidated jurors and witnesses. He was brazen All it did was show how impotent the justice system was against him.

Before they could actually convict him, they need a rat, which Mueller got, and they had to sequester the jury and keep them anonymous.

Mueller has some rats now. But this time we have no way of sequestering or anonymizing the jury.

Response to marylandblue (Reply #20)

erronis

(15,795 posts)
36. +1. Dump and his allies won't be incapacitated by a mere impeachment
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:59 PM
Dec 2018

It will require a conviction.

I still think we should move forward with the impeachment actions and put the crimes in the faces of the MSM. Maybe get CNN onboard and put it up in airport terminals, bars, doctors' offices instead of the tripe and fux that is frequently shown.

The Liberal Lion

(1,414 posts)
28. I agree we should impeach if only becaue of the symbolic value of it
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:26 PM
Dec 2018

it will show at least part of the system is intact and ready to fight. I doubt he would be removed as a result of impeachment, but I think the democrats now have the duty to do so (impeach) and we must make them aware of this duty until it happens. Additionally we must be ready for the consequences of doing so, that is we the people.

anarch

(6,536 posts)
6. Nature will probably put an end to many of humanity's problems in the next century or so
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:12 PM
Dec 2018

Or at least put our minor little domestic and social issues into perspective.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
15. One of current issues is our inability to plan for the future
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:30 PM
Dec 2018

So these are not minor social issues. They are critical to our survival. Nature will definitely crush us if we don't respond now. Our track record is poor, our challenges are great, but nonetheless we must try. There is nothing else we can do.

Boomer

(4,176 posts)
59. This will be a Golden Era
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 01:40 PM
Dec 2018

Toward the latter part of this century, people will look back at the first two decades with a much different perspective. Our concerns will seems petty compared to the turmoil caused by climate change.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
9. Without the 45 to 50+% of voters who are fine with the likes of trump, we wouldn't be here.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:23 PM
Dec 2018

That's a lot of deplorables to deal with.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
26. He is only part of the problem, and only a symptom not a root cause
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:24 PM
Dec 2018

He is a particularly dangerous symptom, which is why I agree it would be good to remove him, but the fact that we cannot is the actual disease. It's like having AIDS. A compromised immune system is the disease, but that's not what kills you. The resulting infections kill you. Fighting the infections can prolong life, but only fighting the AIDS virus itself will save you.

Mitch McConnell is worse than Trump.in some ways. He is the reason the Senate won't protect Mueller. He also did more to destroy the norms of the Senate than any other person in history. There is a very good chance he will survive Trump and continue his damage.

Meanwhile, Trump army of solid voters and the corruption throughout the Republican Party do damage all on their own.

MineralMan

(146,409 posts)
13. It's a lot easier to impeach a President than to change the Constitution.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:27 PM
Dec 2018

If we can't even manage an impeachment and removal, any change in that document will be impossible.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
31. Correct, we can't change the Constitution at this time
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:29 PM
Dec 2018

We can only restore the norms that allow democracy to function, and even that is not easy. Taking back the House was a first step. Impeachment and removal would be a good second step, but not possible at the moment. So the second step is the 2020 election.

MineralMan

(146,409 posts)
33. Yes. Our elections every two and four years are the final checks and balances.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:38 PM
Dec 2018

We need to understand that and make the very best possible use of it. We're wasting our time by trying to think of ways that can't possibly work. We have elections. Let's take advantage of them.

gulliver

(13,240 posts)
14. The system shouldn't be considered "broken."
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:29 PM
Dec 2018

Too many people think that "broken" means they need to get out a crescent wrench to hammer some screws into the engine block.

The system needs maintenance. Rational, empathic, human-valued maintenance. It's serving us, but it can serve better.

marked50

(1,387 posts)
16. Agree with this OP that things need to change and your refinement
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:43 PM
Dec 2018

of terminology. The use of the concept of "Broken Government" has lead to the high numbers of those on the right who want to destroy what has been built over the years- such as all the great and human progressive victories.

The concept of care-taking/maintenance is better.

The one thing I would add is that Education-esp of civics and values- needs to be prioritized

erronis

(15,795 posts)
39. Great response and agree with enhanced maintenance. Been a long time since
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:02 PM
Dec 2018

the US has had its brakes checked.

NRaleighLiberal

(60,070 posts)
18. Let me expand a bit because I've thought about this a lot...
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:56 PM
Dec 2018

What complicates it - and makes it even more depressing - is that it is beyond the US. There is a world problem. There is an authoritarian-on-the-rise problem. There is an anti-intellectual problem.

I do wonder that if people's life spans were longer, or we had the wisdom of multi-generational, multi-era analysis that was totally objective, we would see broad cycles - it seems to me we are in the midst of a down cycle, or perhaps on the way there - not yet at rock bottom.

That so many support trump, republicans, so many are conservative, so many are OK with authoritarianism is far more than single factor. The challenge is how to reverse it, of course. But something huge and widespread is going on - trump is not the root cause, the US is not the root cause - I fear that it is expression of regrettable traits in humanity itself - catalyzed by tribalism enabled by social networking used for ill instead of good, that contributes to this pretty awful place we find ourselves in.

CrispyQ

(36,786 posts)
24. The Indians viewed the world in the scope of seven generations.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:18 PM
Dec 2018

Western culture views it in terms of quarterly earnings. Our everything-for-profit mentality has deemed nothing sacred. Nothing. Everything is a commodity that must feed the corporate machine.

As for creeping authoritarianism, as a collective I think we see the writing on the wall, in spite of the deniers. Climate change is going to smack the big-brained humans back in their place. We're all just vying for a place that will provide us with the most cushion for the coming fall.

erronis

(15,795 posts)
40. Seven generations vs. quarterly profits. What a great distinction.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:04 PM
Dec 2018

I do think we (humanity in its current form) will learn the value of long-term planning...... If we survive that long.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
50. Yes, it's a bigger problem than just the US, but leadership has to come from somewhere
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 05:01 PM
Dec 2018

That leadership is sorely lacking. The US, despite our many problems, is still in the best position to provide that leadership. But first we must start to solve our own problems.

Tribalism is a big issue. And I think that's why immigration has become a key issue. Not because people think rapists and job stealers are entering the country, that's just the conscious motivation. The unconscious motivation is tribalism. So we have to solve immigration, and that means we have to come up with an effective but humane enforcement mechanism. Also figure out what to do with the illegal immigrants already here.

At the same time, economic reform is necessary. We have to put the American and the world economy on a more equitable and sustainable footing. Such solutions are possible in theory, but history shows that politics and tribalism often prevent implementation.

I am not all that optimistic either. But we still have to try.

Maven

(10,533 posts)
21. Yes, we have a system that gives grossly disproportionate power to a minority
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:09 PM
Dec 2018

of white, rural/exurban and increasingly resentful and paranoid citizens.

Trump is a symptom of that problem but you are right that we must address the root causes -- which are structural -- before we can ever hope to move forward as a country.

The Liberal Lion

(1,414 posts)
25. I agree with everything you said
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:21 PM
Dec 2018

Except I don't believe the system can be reformed. It's, IMHO, far to broken for repair. I know I am in the minority here in DU, and I'm fine with that, but I believe the system must be destroyed and a new, egalitarian, environmentally conscious system built to replace it. The system I'm talking about that needs destroyed is the economic system. Clearly capitalism is no longer a viable method, if it ever was, to insure the wider prosperity of the people. You are right it is a broken system of government that allowed trump to make it as far as he has. But it is an utterly corrupt economic system which informed the politics that allowed it to happen. Our system of government is destroyed while our system of economics is becoming the governing factor, filling the void, if you will, where the people have let it slip away. You are right removing donald trump from office does nothing to change the trajectory we are on. If we could remove him by impeachment and removal it would perhaps be a pyrrhic victory at best. The forces of intolerance and authoritarianism have gained a foothold, and even some of our treasured democrats somehow believe these nazis deserve a seat at the table.

If we are to have a victory we must control the terms. I have said it in other places here on DU, and I'll say it on this thread as well. We must summon the courage and gather the strength to destroy this economic system ourselves. It can and should be done legally and non violently. All we have to do, we the majority, is stop participating in it. The most easiest method that we all can do is stop using credit and live completely within or even under our means. For those who can, stop working for others and only work for one's self. And for the completely intrepid, becoming as self sufficient as possible. Going off grid and living off their own labors. I have other thoughts on this, but this post has already dragged on. Suffice it to say I believe this system must be destroyed, we must do it on our own terms, it can be done legally and non violently, and it must be undertaken now.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
52. Well I mostly agree with you, but individual action is never enough.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 05:12 PM
Dec 2018

Systems either reform themselves or collapse. The collapse is often violent. In the early 19th Century, the Ottoman Empire knew it was in trouble. Sultans began to initiate reform movements, that were opposed by political forces, sometimes violently. This went on for over a century until World War I destroyed the empire and a modern secular state emerged.

A similar thing happened in Russia, except the change made everything worse.

The British in the late eighteenth and early 19th Century also had to reform their political and economic system because of the industrial revolution. It was painful for many and took generations, but they managed to do it.

lostnfound

(16,240 posts)
27. Democratic Party has minor ailments but the GOP is malignant to the core
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:26 PM
Dec 2018

Citizens United accelerated the corruption and gave power to the most corrupt: the habits of corruption provided an opportunity for the Russians (and Saudis) to get their hands on not only Trump and the obvious Rohrbacher but probably others indirectly.

Alpeduez21

(1,777 posts)
30. I say Trump is the symptom
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:27 PM
Dec 2018

of the disease that is republican.

Still a simplification of the problem but an accurate reflection on the scope.

BadgerMom

(2,789 posts)
32. "The anti-democratic politicians in Wisconsin, North Carolina, Georgia"
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:35 PM
Dec 2018

=Republicans. The party needs to be held accountable “Victory Uber Alle” is not a democratic belief to live by.

 

PeeJ52

(1,588 posts)
37. We'll know if our nation is salvageable
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:00 PM
Dec 2018

by how effective the new wave of representation lasts. If they keep their independence and continue to speak out against "how the game is played", we may have hope. If they soon start playing the game themselves, then it won't matter how many vote or who we elect. This past election is our last hope.

erronis

(15,795 posts)
43. Do we have any examples of countries that have reformed themselves from within,
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:14 PM
Dec 2018

non-violently?

I do think that our little prototype/demo/one-off project that started back in the 18th century has probably lived beyond even its original designers wildest dreams and expectations.

I don't think that the original designers knew how to predict what might need to be changed 100 or 200+ years into the future. They were realists and knew that the world would continue to evolve and new solutions would be needed.

Not being a great reader of history, I just wonder if any of those men (unfortunately) wrote thoughts about how to move to a new model over time. Poor analogy, but sort of like writing this post on punched cards for a mainframe vs. penning them into this world-wide network. The technology is disruptive and companies survived or failed, but the communications stayed similar. (I need to stop - analogies are not a forte.)

erronis

(15,795 posts)
56. That's a great example. Truth and Reconciliation. Still some bumps on the road.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 05:26 PM
Dec 2018

And what the new nation had to overcome is incredible.

Not like the US with it's resolved history of slavery.... </sarcastic>

 

shanny

(6,709 posts)
45. yes, it is short-sighted and/or blinkered to think everything would be fine
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:22 PM
Dec 2018

if only Hillary had been elected instead of rump. imo the downward spiral began 5 decades ago and we have been losing ever since. The 2016 election--with or without Russian interference--was a primal scream. Our government stopped being responsive to Americans long ago, income inequality is worse than it has ever been (anyone else remember--as I do--when we bragged about having the highest standard of living in the world? What do we brag about now? The biggest economy? The biggest military? Yea, us). And the existential crisis of climate change is looming, worse every year...and we are going backwards even while others try to take baby steps forward.

Damn straight we need a whole new system, an equitable, sustainable, non-extractive one. Trying to fix this one is the proverbial rearranging of deck chairs while the boat sinks.

pecosbob

(7,620 posts)
47. I think it extremely important that Congress revisit the sins of each and every enabler
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:37 PM
Dec 2018

Last edited Sat Dec 8, 2018, 05:34 PM - Edit history (3)

of the administration's criminality. McConnell and Graham knew of the collusion and not only failed to act, but obstructed justice. Nunes obstructed justice. The nations' top law enforcement official directly lied to Congress and the people. If we tolerate this at an official level we cannot claim to observe the rule of law. It is Congress' duty to investigate these officials. Failure to do so normalizes their crimes.

Dems will be in a position to throw light on all the nasty little deeds that have been committed and public opinion will show Ms. Pelosi the proper course of action. Turn the lights on and cockroaches will have to flee.

How can there be justice when Attorney General commits obstruction while freaking recused?

...and then there's Grassley and Garland and Kavanaugh. If I had power of subpeona these people would not go out to pasture gently.

UpInArms

(51,313 posts)
57. Our educational system is in tatters
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 12:15 PM
Dec 2018

2003 No Child Will Be Taught was an horrific piece of legislation

Teaching to the test is not educating children ... no civics classes ... allowing schools to have teachers who cannot teach subjects because they themselves are not educated... (personal experience) ... the lack of arts and sciences in the curriculum and the worship of sports and clubs is destructive

We have created entire generations who are incapable of critical thinking skills

Pluvious

(4,408 posts)
62. And when they do make to HS graduation...
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 02:03 PM
Dec 2018

We give them the option of lifelong debt to attend college, or to join the services industry and smile for tips.

Our's is a culture that cares not for our collective Nation's future, but sadly just our individual selves.

UpInArms

(51,313 posts)
65. Or, the other option of
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 03:46 PM
Dec 2018

indenturing themselves into military service ....

Cannot count how many of our young locals have made this choice and returned forever scarred or worse ...

Other option for those not making any of the above choices ... poor personal choices among those usually involving drug use, illegitimate children and prison ...

Sigh

JudyM

(29,402 posts)
58. He is the stark caricature of the problem.
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 01:14 PM
Dec 2018

🔺 Election infrastructure breakdown.
🔺Lack of adequate rules/enforcement against conflicts of interests throughout the government.
🔺Those in power changing rules or outright disregarding them in pursuit of their own ends, and
Legitimization of that abuse of power
🔺Blatant misrepresentations to the public designed to make all of this seem perfectly fine, along with whataboutism justification.

ecstatic

(32,925 posts)
63. And none of those reforms will stick or matter if we don't reform
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 02:06 PM
Dec 2018

our electoral process first, including dismantling the ineffective electoral college. We also need to take a second look at the configuration of Congress and the Supreme Court. We're quickly headed towards minority rule by the right-wing. That's if we're not already there...

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
64. You've got a point, it may be too late, but I think we are hanging in the balance
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 03:17 PM
Dec 2018

Republican support is weaker than it looks. They aren't governing well on many levels. On the other hand, they've locked in some political and procedural advantages that we have to overcome.

Assuming we can make a successful case in 2020, there could be a surprising realignment that turns some red states blue and gives us the Presidency and both Houses of Congresses. If we do get that, we would need to start pushing through legislation, no matter what. Step 1 is a new Voting Rights Act including ending the gerrymander.

elocs

(22,763 posts)
66. "The only solution is to reform the entire system."
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 03:55 PM
Dec 2018

Given our system as it exists now, how could that ever realistically be done? Let's be real...it's not going to happen.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
68. Well, let's be real in a different way.
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 04:28 PM
Dec 2018

Historically, failing systems that know they are in trouble keep attempting reform until they collapse completely. The Roman Empire in the 3rd Century went through decades of crisis until it reformed itself and bought another 100 years of life.

The Ottoman Empire knew it needed reform in the early 19th Century. It tried for about 100 years, gradually getting weaker, until WW I crushed it. Russia tried some modest half hearted reforms starting in the 1860s and continued feeble attempts until the Revolution.

We don't know if our attempts will be enough, but that never stopped others from trying to the end. And even then, there were always people ready to build the new.

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