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Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:12 PM

Has Anyone Changed Their Opinion of Bush Senior?

I will admit that these last few days have somewhat altered my opinion of him. There have been some interviews on NPR that have convinced me he was not quite as bad as I used to believe. Maybe I'm just becoming soft.

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Arrow 132 replies Author Time Post
Reply Has Anyone Changed Their Opinion of Bush Senior? (Original post)
ProudLib72 Dec 5 OP
roamer65 Dec 5 #1
InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 5 #42
Sanity Claws Dec 5 #2
ProudLib72 Dec 5 #7
pangaia Dec 5 #25
ProudLib72 Dec 5 #26
pangaia Dec 6 #73
WhiteTara Dec 5 #3
Lotusflower70 Dec 5 #4
CentralMass Dec 5 #36
Lefta Dissenter Dec 6 #126
The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 5 #5
ProudLib72 Dec 5 #22
bdamomma Dec 6 #75
delisen Dec 6 #128
LeftInTX Dec 6 #111
PaulX2 Dec 5 #6
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 5 #8
stopbush Dec 5 #43
Golden Raisin Dec 5 #9
dlk Dec 5 #10
irisblue Dec 5 #11
Spider Jerusalem Dec 5 #12
Poiuyt Dec 5 #13
Wellstone ruled Dec 5 #14
jberryhill Dec 5 #15
ProudLib72 Dec 5 #23
jberryhill Dec 5 #33
ProudLib72 Dec 5 #34
jberryhill Dec 5 #37
stopbush Dec 5 #44
Cartoonist Dec 6 #47
stopbush Dec 6 #48
Cartoonist Dec 6 #51
stopbush Dec 6 #89
jberryhill Dec 6 #118
stopbush Dec 6 #121
LeftInTX Dec 6 #112
ElementaryPenguin Dec 6 #65
treestar Dec 6 #70
bdamomma Dec 6 #76
stopbush Dec 6 #87
LeftInTX Dec 6 #113
Meowmee Dec 6 #116
lagomorph777 Dec 6 #92
stopbush Dec 6 #95
BeyondGeography Dec 6 #77
LeftInTX Dec 6 #114
JonLP24 Dec 6 #107
dflprincess Dec 5 #16
Thossie Dec 6 #54
PoindexterOglethorpe Dec 5 #17
SammyWinstonJack Dec 5 #18
Guy Whitey Corngood Dec 5 #19
LakeSuperiorView Dec 5 #20
violetpastille Dec 5 #21
ProudLib72 Dec 5 #24
Garrett78 Dec 5 #28
Sugarcoated Dec 5 #27
lunatica Dec 5 #29
50 Shades Of Blue Dec 5 #30
John1956PA Dec 5 #31
uppityperson Dec 5 #32
gay texan Dec 5 #35
ProfessorGAC Dec 6 #71
ProudLib72 Dec 6 #117
ProfessorGAC Dec 6 #123
sheshe2 Dec 5 #38
jrthin Dec 5 #39
Devil Child Dec 5 #40
MrGrieves Dec 5 #41
Baltimike Dec 6 #45
shraby Dec 6 #46
peekaloo Dec 6 #66
melman Dec 6 #49
quickesst Dec 6 #50
sprinkleeninow Dec 6 #52
Laffy Kat Dec 6 #53
lilactime Dec 6 #59
MFM008 Dec 6 #55
Dorian Gray Dec 6 #56
Vinca Dec 6 #57
lilactime Dec 6 #58
Scurrilous Dec 6 #60
leftynyc Dec 6 #61
RandiFan1290 Dec 6 #62
DeminPennswoods Dec 6 #63
treestar Dec 6 #72
DeminPennswoods Dec 7 #129
mindfulNJ Dec 6 #64
KG Dec 6 #67
treestar Dec 6 #68
ProudLib72 Dec 6 #119
treestar Dec 6 #122
disillusioned73 Dec 6 #69
bdamomma Dec 6 #78
FakeNoose Dec 6 #74
rurallib Dec 6 #79
Mike Nelson Dec 6 #80
Scoopster Dec 6 #81
HipChick Dec 6 #82
Honeycombe8 Dec 6 #83
Raster Dec 6 #84
Ferrets are Cool Dec 6 #85
lark Dec 6 #86
JCMach1 Dec 6 #88
lagomorph777 Dec 6 #90
ProudLib72 Dec 6 #120
The Genealogist Dec 6 #91
Act_of_Reparation Dec 6 #93
DemocratSinceBirth Dec 6 #94
old guy Dec 6 #96
friend of m and j Dec 6 #97
Proud Liberal Dem Dec 6 #98
MineralMan Dec 6 #99
LiberalFighter Dec 6 #100
BigDemVoter Dec 6 #101
Afromania Dec 6 #102
gopiscrap Dec 6 #103
LisaM Dec 6 #104
panader0 Dec 6 #105
JonLP24 Dec 6 #106
Va Lefty Dec 6 #108
SHRED Dec 6 #109
LeftInTX Dec 6 #110
QC Dec 6 #115
llmart Dec 6 #124
Raine Dec 6 #125
Kablooie Dec 6 #127
Solly Mack Dec 7 #130
Hortensis Dec 7 #131
musicblind Dec 7 #132

Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:13 PM

1. Not here.

I voted for Bill Clinton for a reason.

GHWB was a lackluster president who had very poor domestic policy.

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Response to roamer65 (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:47 PM

42. "Poor domestic policy" is putting it mildly. Those expressing fond

thoughts about GHWB following the death of that inhumane vile creature would do better spending time contemplating his victims who perished because of his evil policies, in remembrance of them.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:15 PM

2. I will admit that he was a decent human being

who loved his family and friends. The speakers showed genuine feeling for him and their stories showed Bush Sr's warmth and kindness. I really had not thought about his personal life much.

However, my opinions about his politics have not changed.

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Response to Sanity Claws (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:22 PM

7. That's what has been surprising to me

I've been listening to these interviews with people whom you would expect to hold strong negative opinions of him. But they don't. Or, rather, they might but they are able to overlook his policies and see him as someone who invited bipartisanship. I just wonder if this sentimentality is due to disdain for the current administration or they are just being nice out of respect for the dead.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:59 PM

25. OVERLOOKED HIS POLICIES !! DING DONG!!!



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Response to pangaia (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:03 PM

26. They did seem to concentrate on Sully, socks

and the ADA.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #26)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:00 AM

73. LOL..

If poor Sully only knew...


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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:16 PM

3. No. I remember him well.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:18 PM

4. Hmmm

I think more about the relationship he had with his wife Barbara. That was a long lasting and loving relationship. They were sweet together and always holding hands. I think part of him was lost when she passed. I love that she wore fake pearls and refused to dye her hair and he wore funny socks. I respect his military service and the classy letter he wrote Bill Clinton when he was elected President. I think sometimes we get soft or hard with age depending on the issue but even though I disagree with him politically, I can respect and appreciate the love he had for his wife and his family. Watching George eulogize his dad was heartbreaking. When he broke down and cried, I appreciated that raw moment of grief. It was powerful regardless of political affiliation.

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Response to Lotusflower70 (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:18 PM

36. +1

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Response to Lotusflower70 (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:20 PM

126. And + another 1

Well said.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:19 PM

5. I did not like him as a president.

I don't dislike him as a person. In fact, W's eulogy kind of choked me up because GHWB reminded me a little bit of my own dad, who had some similar views and attitudes (we fought about politics from time to time) and finally died at about the same age of the same affliction, Parkinson's. I didn't like W either (I slagged him regularly on DU) but his words were genuine and moving. I, too, am probably getting soft in my old age, and I'm fine with that. I was particularly struck by something Alan Simpson said: "Hate corrodes the container that holds it." I don't want to hate anybody any more. I am struggling very hard wrt Trump, though.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:52 PM

22. Yes, that's the way I feel now, too

As a president, I disliked him. But as a person, maybe he wasn't so bad.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:05 AM

75. Yes,I will go with that

he was a lousy President but as a person he was alright.

I loved what Alan Simpson said, I'm sure all who attended got what he said.

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Response to bdamomma (Reply #75)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:44 PM

128. When I see Senator Simpson I remember his nastiness to Anita Hill

The past that is being evoked did not exist.

Bush was in favor of coat hanger abortions and Willie Horton ads.

He shut down a special prosecutor investigation by pardoning those likely to implicate him- in much the same way people think Trump might try to do.

He was however generally polite and civil. He is among the last of the World War II generation. He rightly was low key on the fall of the Soviet Union and he was a highly skilled politician. I believe he was a big help to Bill Clinton in his presidency-so did put our country over his personal loss. Unlike Donald Trump Bush actually did put his country first as he saw it.

The America that G H W led is gone and it is not coming back. Trump is a non-democratic interlude between the old Democratic Republic and the new one coming.

Media is marking the end of an era because they fear the nation of equal rights that we are going to be building. People are nostalgic for our old narrative about ourselves and the world.

In a sense this funeral is for that old America.







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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:54 PM

111. Same here

My dad was a Republican. There was no way I was going to break my ties with my dad over his political views.

My dad died of prostate cancer in 2016. He saw the "Grab'em" video and claimed he wasn't going to vote. (I took it with a grain of salt)
He died in Nov 2016. His unfilled absentee ballot was on the kitchen table.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:21 PM

6. No

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:22 PM

8. No

I'll say he wasn't as bad as Reagan and clearly not as bad as Trump.

However he is the guy who gave us Clarence Thomas. His campaign against Dukakis had Lee Atwater, Floyd Brown and the Willy Horton ad which showed his claim of wanting a "kinder and gentler" country to be bogus bullshit.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:56 PM

43. This

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:25 PM

9. No!

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:27 PM

10. No, Bush Sr. Still Had Many Skeletons in His Closet

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:30 PM

11. Not really

I was paying close attention to politics and the social impact even then. Still respected his.military service & I recognize the absolutely vital impact of the ADA legislation.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:31 PM

12. He was a million times better than Trump.

Which still doesn't make him a good president (although he was the last Republican to raise taxes when it was called for and to wage a war with clearly defined objectives for legitimate reasons).

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:32 PM

13. No, but my opinion of Bush Jr is slowly changing

I see touches of humanity there. And I like the way he and Michelle Obama interact.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:36 PM

14. No friggin way!

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:37 PM

15. Go ahead and google this


“Bush JFK Dallas site:democraticundergound.com”

This place is impressive sometimes.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:55 PM

23. Really?!

George "Grassy Knoll" Bush?

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:13 PM

33. This has been a DU classic for ages






Sometimes I wonder if people have been reading some OTHER DU somewhere, which has content that is very different from what I’ve been seeing here for a long, long time.

Either that or there are two groups of people here who must all have extensive and mutually exclusive ignore lists.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:15 PM

34. Either I haven't been around long enough

Or I haven't been looking in the right places! Thanks for the tip!

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:22 PM

37. Here ya go

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:58 PM

44. The enlarged Dallas shot doesn't look at all like GHWB.

Thanks for helping to dispel this ignorant CT.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #44)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:26 AM

47. Hasn't dispelled it for me

The photo looks more like Johnny Carson. So what? I still tie Bush to Kennedy's assassination.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #47)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:45 AM

48. Whatever. We all have our fantasies. The JFK CT fantasies are harmless. Just parlor chat.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #48)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:10 AM

51. It's like a favorite book.

A John le Carré novel.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:25 AM

89. Like an Alistair MacLean book or movie,

where one ridiculous deus ex machina sets the stage for the next ridiculous deus ex machina.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #48)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:27 PM

118. I don't believe they are all harmless


A lot of the goofy CT shit is the bait on the hook of "they're all the same" types of political de-activation and cynicism. To buy into the dark cabal behind the curtains secretly managing things like the JFK CT's, alien contact, 9/11 inside-jobbery, moon landing nuttery, chemtrails, etc., you have to conclude that all of our political institutions are rigged and illusory and that, by and large, pretty much all politicians are bought off.

And if they are not all bought off, then they are all either outstandingly craven or incredibly stupid. Take Ted Kennedy for example. In a book he KNEW would not be published until after his death, he rejected JFK CT's. You'd think he'd be pretty motivated to know the truth, and so it raises the question of why not? People right here at DU posted explanatory bullshit along the lines of he had to lie to his grave because "they" were threatening the rest of the family if he spilled the beans. Seriously.

Or, take 9/11 inside-jobbery... there, just yesterday, you have Barack Obama sitting right in front of Dick Cheney. Just out of curiosity, did Obama never figure out who pulled off 9/11, or was he in on it too? Because you have to conclude that, given his access to information, then Obama himself was either in on it, too stupid, or the various types of idiocy these people engage in around "they will kill his family".

So, no, I do not believe that it is harmless to promote the idea that all institutions are hopelessly corrupt and that all politicians are either (a) bought off, (b) in on it, (c) stupid, or (d) cowards.

Those sorts of things are corrosive to effective participation in a democracy, and ultimately it is PRECISELY those sorts of things which are sown by those with an interest of turning people off to effective participation in democracy. Trolls don't care what your politics are. The game is not to get you to agree or to disagree with any political proposition at all. The game is to get you to tune out and drop out from the political process altogether.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #118)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:50 PM

121. I agree with you. In fact, I consider the JFK CTs to be the grand daddy of

the crazed CTs we see in our current age.

As a foundational occurrence, the JFK CTs have been profoundly detrimental to our society. But at this point, I see them in specific the same way that I view the fantasies of religion- as obviously bat shit crazy as they are, with the passing of time, they have become rather benign in their direct effect on the general public, even as their spawn continue to harm society.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #47)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:58 PM

112. I think he looks more like Jeb! Bush

Since Jeb! was 10 at the time, it's a perfect fit!

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Response to stopbush (Reply #44)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:45 AM

65. I suggest you watch this very brief Youtube video

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Response to ElementaryPenguin (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:37 AM

70. anyone in Dallas might have been out and along

the parade route. The President was in town. Then the points about his hair line, wouldn't his hair line be less receded many years before? The comparison picture is from the Nixon Administration, at least 5 years later and as much as 11 years later.

But presuming evil from his being there takes being one of those Bush Family Evil Empire experts who can make coincidences of any kind into a sure sign of evil.

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Response to ElementaryPenguin (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:14 AM

76. it could be him

plus if he was staying at the hotel they mentioned it can be researched.

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Response to ElementaryPenguin (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:22 AM

87. And I suggest you read Bugliosi's book on the assassination.

I have no interest in the bullshit of these JFK CTs.

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Response to ElementaryPenguin (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:05 PM

113. The nose and hairline are not the same

Here's Bush with his family around the same time. Jeb was born in 1953 and appears to be between 10 and 12 years old in this pic. So this pic is circa 1963-1965

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Response to ElementaryPenguin (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:23 PM

116. Doesn't look

Like him at all, the face is different. In any event, standing outside a hotel is proof of nothing.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #44)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:29 AM

92. I don't see any resemblance.

However, that doesn't mean I can forget Iran-Contra, CIA Cocaine, Panama Deception, Aids, etc etc etc

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #92)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:38 AM

95. There you go. There's plenty of factual things to criticize GHWB for without resorting

to citing fantasies.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:16 AM

77. Looks like the surgery to make his chin more pointy and face less jowly was a success

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #77)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:10 PM

114. Don't forget the surgery to make himself look younger to carry out this mission.

Then another surgery to make himself look older again.

Bush family in the early 60's. Jeb was born in 1953.
Bush was 39 yo in Nov 1963.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:25 PM

107. He does have a history of being in interesting places at interesting times

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:40 PM

16. No

Last edited Thu Dec 6, 2018, 06:32 PM - Edit history (1)

His policies as CIA director and president caused the deaths of thousands. Iran-Contra was treason (a Bush family tradition).

That he was well mannered and could be likeable to the people close to him doesn't. impress me at all. Not being as bad as Trump is a pretty low bar. It was Nixon, Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II getting by with their crimes that led to Trump.

I had a moment when I felt some sympathy for W when he broke down - then I remembered the kids who will grow up without one of their parents because of the war he lied us into and I got over it.

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Response to dflprincess (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:41 AM

54. Affirmation

Thank you comrade!

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:41 PM

17. No.

We are in the throes of the nonsense of not speaking evil of the dead. We saw this not very long ago when John McCain died and suddenly became St. John. McCain was a despicable human being and dying didn't make him any better.

Bush did a lot of things wrong, most of which have been enumerated here already, and dying doesn't erase a single one of them.

Even Hitler liked dogs. Didn't make him a good person.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:41 PM

18. Nope.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:41 PM

19. Niet! nt

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:45 PM

20. Only relative to the last two idiots the Republics have elected.

Compared to them, he was at least a competent administrator.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:45 PM

21. No but

I haven't been watching the spectacle.

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Response to violetpastille (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:58 PM

24. It does tend to become annoying when there are other things to discuss

And I can't help thinking that the Rump must be loving the distraction from Flynn. But I always listen to NPR when I drive, so it inevitably comes up.

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Response to violetpastille (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:07 PM

28. Same here. What little I've seen or read has the makings of an absurdist novel.

This is a funny society we've built, to put it nicely.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:07 PM

27. I have much more respect for him as a human being

but I remember the nasty politics which were the beginnings of the kind of corrupt Republican style that lead to Trump

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:08 PM

29. I always thought of him as a wimp. A weak man

who was treated like the help by the Reagan’s, which he was. There’s a reason why he was a one term President. He was also a bottom feeding shit with his Willy Horton ad. He unleashed the dirtiest campaign against Dukakis that we had seen in modern history.

This was all before FoxNews, Limbaugh and shock radio. It was the era of Lee Atwater, the dirtiest, slimiest person who predated Carl Rove in running Republican campaigns based on the most slanderous hatchet jobs on opponents. No lie was disgusting enough to keep them from inventing it and using it.

I have always been puzzled by Clinton’s and The Obamas’ friendship with the Bush family. Maybe it was because of that adage of keeping your enemies closer. Who knows.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:12 PM

30. No.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:13 PM

31. No. I question his administration's diplomacy with Iraq prior to its invasion of Kuwait.

From: https://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/23/world/confrontation-in-the-gulf-us-gave-iraq-little-reason-not-to-mount-kuwait-assault.html :

In the two weeks before Iraq's seizure of Kuwait, the Bush Administration on the advice of Arab leaders gave President Saddam Hussein little reason to fear a forceful American response if his troops invaded the country.

The Administration's message to Baghdad, articulated in public statements in Washington by senior policy makers and delivered directly to Mr. Hussein by the United States Ambassador, April C. Glaspie, was this: The United States was concerned about Iraq's military buildup on its border with Kuwait, but did not intend to take sides in what it perceived as a no-win border dispute between Arab neighbors.




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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:13 PM

32. It's interesting, learning more about him, but no. I still don't like him at all

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:18 PM

35. No, not at all.

Lee Atwater, pardoning of the slimeballs from the Iran Contra affair, being a complete dick while being interviewed by MTV during the 1992 election, crashing the economy, and a hell of a lot of bloodshed caused by him and his family.

I completely respect that he fought in WW2. He served honorably, however it doesn't give you an excuse to ruin the lives of your fellow countrymen in the future.

The only good things to come out of his presidency was "Doonesbury" accused him of "placing his manhood in a living trust" and Dana Carvey's parody of him.

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Response to gay texan (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:37 AM

71. Mostly Agree

I don't however, blame the economic crash on him. I blame Reagan for that, completely and solely.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #71)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:26 PM

117. Bush denounced voodoo economics then couldn't handle the economy when it was his turn

So he was good with foreign affairs, but lousy with the economy.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #117)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:21 PM

123. Dealt A Crappy Hand

The revenue loss and huge military borrowing the prior 8 years pre-doomed 41 on that aspect

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:23 PM

38. No.

However I will respect his family's loss with his death.

That is all.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:28 PM

39. NO!!!!!!!!!! Willie Horton, enough said. nt

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:32 PM

40. Nope n/t

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:34 PM

41. The man is directly responsible for the deaths and pain and suffering

The man is directly responsible for the deaths and pain and suffering of tens of thousands of people if not more.

Fuck him. Rot slowly.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:16 AM

45. Yes...a little, but that is because of comparing him to Twitler. nt

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:57 AM

46. Just remember the KGB. Once a KGB always KGB.

A person doesn't change their stripes just because some people say nice things about him because he's dead.

He was into the Iran-Contra fiasco plus other ones. That doesn't speak well for his character to me. Many poor people were killed because of that.

Happens he was CIA. Once CIA always CIA which is for the most part similar to the KGB.
Secret, not quite legal, and works off the radar.

Adding:
Look at his children. Jeb helped his brother GW win in Florida by tossing many off the rolls and horrid ballots.
GW was a terrible and stupid president and had a cushy job protecting the Gulf during Vietnam and couldn't even stick that out and went awol.
One of their brothers was involved in scamming a lot of people in the Banking scandal. Can't remember with they called it, but he's a thief.

That's not too good a track record on being a "good" parent.

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Response to shraby (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:28 AM

66. Neil Bush and Silverado S&L scam

bankrupted a lot of old people. Daddy was President at the time and saved his ass. Minor consolation was it kept Neil out of ever running for public office.

The media focused on the "Keating 5", which included one John McCain who played innocent and was never truly taken to task for his involvement.

Waspy fuck ups need love too, I suppose.

Hell it was Nixon who tugged and pulled Poopy into the political scene.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:50 AM

49. No

I have no problem believing he was nice to his family and friends. But I wouldn't have doubted that before.

Or cared. Still don't. Because it's not relevant. I'll even say he had more class and manners than Dump. But who doesn't? He was still a Republican asshole - as a VP and as President.That's what's relevant and that hasn't changed at all.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:06 AM

50. I doubt many, if any...

..have changed their opinion overall of George the Elder, but the tasteless grave dancing here on DU has changed my opinion about some people who post here.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:27 AM

52. No.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:31 AM

53. Nope. I'm not grave dancing. I am doing a lot of eye rolling.

I find the entire family intolerable.

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Response to Laffy Kat (Reply #53)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:02 AM

59. +1

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 06:34 AM

55. Not of the policies

Of either him or W.
But i have softened on them as persons.
They owe maggot for being sooo hated.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 06:44 AM

56. I was a teenager

when he was elected, and admittedly had little opinion about politics then.

So my opinion has altered. I've learned some good and some horrible things he did. I've learned more about his politics. Some of his failures. Some of his successes. Some of his successes that I'm ethically opposed to.

I knew he had fought in the war, but I learned more about his bravery. I also learned more about the racism used in his campaign.

I learned about his love for family and his desire to do good and be a shining light of virtue. I've also learned more about his possible philandering and relationships with women outside of his marriage.

Like most human beings, he has capacity for good and bad actions. He's fully human. Fully flawed. I believe he had aspirational ideals and he failed much of the time.


His humanity is opposed to what we see in the White House now, which is what makes it way more acceptable to people. And I saw the respect people had for him and wish we had SOME of that now.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 06:57 AM

57. No. I rarely agreed with him, but he definitely wasn't the worst human being on earth.

There are no perfect human beings and perfection shouldn't be expected. He did some good things. He did some bad things. I think the past few days has been a wake up call to this country about how far we've moved away from civility and bipartisanship, but I doubt the GOP will learn anything from it. During the funeral they're off hijacking Michigan and Wisconsin.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:02 AM

58. No.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:19 AM

60. No. n/t

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:27 AM

61. Hard to say

If he had passed during Pres Obama's administration, my opinion likely wouldn't have changed one bit as he put Clarence Thomas on the court, was responsible for the Willie Horton ad (both unforgivable). But in light of what's infesting the oval office right now.....he did some good stuff, worked with Dems, was obviously a very good family man. I've gone agnostic about him. I also think grave dancing is extremely bad karma but didn't really find it hard not to do it here - with cheney and trump - that will test my limits.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:34 AM

62. No

Always amazing to me how the right and the media can so easily lead us around.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:39 AM

63. Everyone's a saint after they're dead

but as Bob Woodward said, "the truth will emerge".

I've been listening to Maddow's podcast, "Bagman" and Bush, then head of the RNC, was asked by Nixon to and did try to obstruct the DoJ investigation into Agnew's corruption. It's documented on the Nixon tapes. That has been mostly lost to history. Then there's his "out-of-the-loop" defense for not knowing about Iran-Contra. This from a guy who had many long-standing foreign policy and intelligence service contacts.

The fact is, Bush was a politician willing and able to do or say whatever was required to win elections.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #63)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:38 AM

72. Yes, I think that this is the best it is going to get for him

almost everyone gets the best rap at their funeral.

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Response to treestar (Reply #72)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 04:51 AM

129. He was fine with his son stealing the 2000 election

as well, iirc.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:44 AM

64. Yes

I used to think he was alive and now I think he’s dead.

Seriously no...Just because one dies doesn’t change what one does during their lifetime...good or bad.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:28 AM

67. not just no, but fuck no.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:32 AM

68. No. The passage of time and the fact that he died

are giving his more positive qualities the focus. History will focus on what he did when POTUS and before.

His name popped up in "Bag Man" a Rachel Maddow podcast about Spiro Agnew. As part of the Nixon administration, H.W. tried to pressure prosecutors not to prosecute poor Spiro.

Also comparing anyone to the Orange Dotard, they start to look better. That's an effect Republican presidents will tend to benefit from.

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Response to treestar (Reply #68)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:30 PM

119. "Poor Spiro"!

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #119)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:10 PM

122. Spiro and Tricky Dick were both crooks

Heck, Spiro knew he was a crook before he took the office of Veep and continued to take bribes as Veep.

And on top of that, they both tried to obstruct justice by bugging the prosecutor and using his own brother (a Senator) to attempt to talk him out of it!

Almost Trumpian.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:36 AM

69. Or maybe corporate media has done it's job..

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Response to disillusioned73 (Reply #69)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:25 AM

78. yes corporate media

will probably try to sell W as being a good president too. NOT.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:04 AM

74. Well, compared to his son, he probably was a "better" president

... but that doesn't make him a "good" president.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:31 AM

79. Not one whit, but it has made me much more wary of media especially NPR

HW was to me a person who would do or say anything to get what he wanted. Not sure how that is much different than Trump. Bush looked better doing it.

And all this crap about loving his family. I call BS. He had the morals of a rabbit.
This country would be so much better of had we never had the Bush family.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:36 AM

80. A resounding...

… NO! But people here will probably disagree with me when I say Reagan was a better President than Bush Sr. I suspect Bush Sr. was behind the Iran-Contra mess even tho he said he was "out of the loop." Bush Sr. had much more interest in all that than Reagan. Bush Sr. was better than Bush Jr. and Trump, though...

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:38 AM

81. I look at it more as balancing my opinion given more context.

Last edited Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:46 PM - Edit history (1)

I totally agree, and honestly NPR's interviews & reporting over the past few days about HW's legacy have been really fantastic. I urge everyone to go back & take a listen to some of them.

...but yeah, there are some things his Administration did, as well as the Reagan Administration which we was part of, that should not be ignored by history - his complicity in ignoring the AIDS crisis; his attitudes towards LGBT folks in general; the failure to follow-up on & assist Iraq's citizens after he said we'd help them if they did; his choices of Robert Bork and Clarence Thomas for SCOTUS; His approval for campaign ads that were blatantly racist... I know that's probably not all of it.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:38 AM

82. Nope..he'll have to reckon with his maker..

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:46 AM

83. No. I liked him before. I like him now. For a Republican, he was one of the better ones.

I liked the way he handled Desert Storm. I liked how he bucked the Republican pressure not to raise taxes to fund programs to help the citizens. I liked how he signed environmental laws and cared about that issue (not enough, IMO, but you're talking about a Republican).

He volunteered for the military, when, as a rich kid, he could have taken the easier path to riches.

Politicians have to say and do things, in order to win. So none of them is totally on the up and up when campaigning. But I think he was one of the good ones. Not my ideology, but that's why there are two major parties.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:49 AM

84. NO! Bush41 was part and parcel of Iran/Contra...

even pardoning six of the perps, he was also one of the main participants of October surprise, where the Iran hostages were held LONGER to influence the election that defeated Carter and put Ronnie the Raygun into office. Bush41 also gave us BLATANT racial hysteria during campaigns with his "Willie Horton" ad, which he actually apologized later to Dukakis for. Alas, the damage was done.

Bush41 was also a behind-the-scenes fix it man for the black ops DC power structure...

So NO! Rest in peace and all that stuff. But no.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:54 AM

85. Not ONE fucking bit

I still think the entire family is EVIL

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:20 AM

86. I still loathe him, but not as full heartedly as before.

I was reminded of his Clean Air Act and the ADA and both of those were huge humanitarian accomplishments for which i applaud him. However, I will never ever forgive him for his part in keeping the hostages under lock and key for months to thwart Carters' re-election and for encouraging Iraq to invade Kuwait so he could get to be a war president He's not as bad as his son and nowhere near the threat to the world that drumpf is, but he was not stellar and made some huge mistakes, for his own personal advantage.

OTOH, maybe I'm just more of a softie in my old age and having lost my father 14 years ago, empathize so much more than I did before?

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:25 AM

88. No, why I haven't said anything

3 wars in 4 years, rolling over for Chinese repression, everything he did when VP and much, much more...

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:26 AM

90. Judging from all the Teevee pundits, everybody likes him better now that he's dead.

Me too.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #90)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:35 PM

120. Ha!

You're terrible!

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:28 AM

91. No he stands as a mediocre president as much as he did last Thursday while still alive.

I suppose I have a better idea of the Bush family dynamic. Obviously he was well loved by his family and his children respected him.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:35 AM

93. Fuck no.

The banality of evil.

Lots of people love their kids. Not everyone invades a country because Time magazine called them a wimp.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:36 AM

94. No.

I would never consider voting for a Republican but I truly despise Trump. None of his predecessors arouse that reaction in me. Bush was what he was, a Republican.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 11:48 AM

96. No.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:43 PM

97. Yes and no.

As a life long Democrat I didn't think he was a good President. But as time passed and maybe because I have matured a little in my thinking. My criteria for judging a President was not really organized enough to put it into into words. But until Trump came storming into our lives I was not able to express that criteria as a philosophy. Good character and integrity are the most important elements in judging a candidate for Presidency. His/her policies and political beliefs are important but secondary to good character. Their actions and policies are based on what they think is the right thing for our country.

I may oppose and disagree with their actions and policies as I did when Bush 41 was still on the political scene and as I would today if he were running for office today, but the last few days have caused me to look at him as a man and human being and think he was a good man.

I live in Mexico now (it is a lot cheaper living) now and follow Mexican politics also. After nearly a century of corrupt politicians and a government that was not concerned with serving the people but simply seeking power. Ironically as I see what I think is a President who I think is dragging the US into the gutter and throwing out the values on which our country was founded on, Mexico elected a humble man who wants to reform Mexico. He won the Presidential election beating 3 other candidates from the traditional political parties who had rules Mexico for nearly a hundred years with 53% of the vote and winning in 31 of Mexico's 32 states. His platform was simple; eliminate corruption, reduce violence, and lift the poor out of poverty. He took office on Dec. 1.

The Mexican people love him and he genuinely loves them. He is 64 years old and has been involved in politics all his adult life with never having been involved in any of the numerous scandals in Mexico. He ended his election night speech with the words " promise you that I will never lie to you; I will never steal from you, and I will never betray you. "

I couldn't help from comparing the message of hope and love given by Andre Manuel Lopez Obredor (better known throughout Mexico by his initials "AMLO" to the message that Trump gives to the American people.

I only wrote this about Mexico because AMLO is a man of great character and integrity. Think about the irony of Mexico pulling itself out of the gutter as the US President is pulling America into the gutter.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:04 PM

98. Not really

I wanted Clinton to win in 1992 but never had particularly harsh feelings against GHWB- then or now.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:06 PM

99. No. He's part of history. A nice funeral changes none of that.

He is who he was. People are just being nice because he died. It was a long time ago.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:07 PM

100. No

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:13 PM

101. Nope. I remember him as a supreme asshole.

I don't care how bad Pussy Grabber is, Bush Senior and PARTICULARLY Bush Jr. were dreadful. . . Just because they don't match the current level of horse shit doesn't mean they were worth all of the cooing and stroking going on right now. . .

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:14 PM

102. no, he spent the first half of my lifetime aiding in working over the country.

His spawn helped steal an election for his brother without a peep from him about how he/they were undercutting democracy with their garbage. Where was he while his son used the stolen presidency to embroil us in an unnecessary war while running the economy into the ground? The answer was that he was nowhere, nowhere at all.

I won't even bother getting into some of the other stuff he did that others have already mentioned. So, again, no the guy was still a bum that did bum ass shit.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:16 PM

103. no...he's still a fucking dirty asshole

knee deep in CIA atrocities and willing to use racism to get elected...not to mention what hand he might have had in the JFK assassination. May he rot in hell!

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:18 PM

104. No.

Iran-Contra, Willie Horton, and helping to enable the selection of W can't balance out what positive attributes he may have had.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:21 PM

105. No. n/t

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:23 PM

106. People are looking at things with Rose colored glasses

Same with McCain.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:26 PM

108. Nope

Willie Horton and Clarence Thomas. Nuff said.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:40 PM

109. No

His policy decisions both foreign and domestic were horrendous and damaging to this country and the world plus he squelched the Iran/Contra investigations with his pardons.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:50 PM

110. No

I can respect him as a human and father, but still have the same feelings about him as a president.

It is no different than having Republican friends.

My dad was a rabid Republican, but I was very close to him.
I tried to avoid politics with my dad. He spontaneously mentioned he was so disgusted with "grab'em by the_____" , that he wasn't going to vote in the 2016 election. (I took it with a grain of salt.)

He died in Nov 2016. His unfilled absentee ballot was on his kitchen table.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:19 PM

115. 3,000 civilians in Panama killed for no reason.

U.S. trained and funded death squads in El Salvador raping and murdering nuns.

Savings and Loans execs stealing everything they could get their hands on.

Willie Horton.

Hell no, I recognized him for what he was way back then and I won't slobber all over him now.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 09:24 PM

124. Nope. Not one whit.

He was a fairly ineffectual president. He didn't really have any leadership abilities. The Iraq action didn't accomplish anything other than getting lots of viewership on CNN. People sat around their TV's acting like bombing was some sort of fun thing to watch. It disgusted me.

I never liked anyone in the Bush family. GHWB had a fortune handed to him by his father, just like Jeb and W. did. I'll take a Barack Obama or Bill Clinton any day because they could relate to the average person. Nothing was handed to them.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 09:52 PM

125. As a person I think he was nice (thoughtful, modest etc)

BUT I still think he was an awful president that made mistakes which are still having an effect.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 10:39 PM

127. Yes.

I used to think he was alive.
Now I'm of the opinion that he is not.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 04:57 AM

130. Well, he's gone from a POS to an ossified piece of shit.

That's change.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 05:08 AM

131. No. I always saw him as multifaceted, personal facets

quite decent and good. The eulogies I heard did make me wonder how much better a president he'd have been if his administration hadn't taken place in a period when the Republican Party and its backers were already taking a very bad turn.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:15 AM

132. The world is full of good people who do bad things and bad people who do good things.

Bush Sr. did a lot of bad things, but he also did some good things.

Whether or not he was a good person or a bad person is complicated, as it is with all people.

The Willie Horton ad was inexcusable and as a gay man, it's awful how little was done for HIV back when it was killing all the right people in their eyes.

Later on, Bush Sr. did change his opinion on HIV and he even voted for Hillary Clinton in the last election. People do make some changes as they age.

I will say that, in my opinion, it is at least possible that Bush Sr. was someone trying to be a good person who I happen to disagree with on a political level profoundly.

I think Trump has brought this kind of thing into perspective. Ideological differences versus a person's claim to humanity. I don't have ideological differences with Trump. My differences with Trump go much deeper. I have a soul. Trump and his most ardent followers do not.

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