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Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:23 AM

Scientific illiteracy baffles me

Republicans and other Luddites consistently deny issues that have a scientific basis. They've done this for decades even in the face of overwhelming evidence contrary to their beliefs.

For example, the medical community told people for years that smoking tobacco was bad for you. But Republicans and tobacco growers denied these facts because it impacted their business and "free will" as citizens to make their own choices. Never mind that smokers end up costing our society tremendous amounts of money in medical costs.

Republicans don't believe in human-caused climate change. Yet this issue will dramatically change our planet and could possibly spark an extinction event causing the deaths of hundreds of millions of people and animals.

There are numerous other similar examples of Republicans denying things that are scientifically proven. (I doubt one could find any Progressives who believe the Earth is flat!)

And yet, Republicans are more than willing to use science for themselves. They use cellphones and GPS devices which wouldn't be possible if Professor Einstein hadn't done some very specific and remarkable research and made incredible discoveries.

They are more than willing to use advanced medicine if they or their family get sick.

They are more than willing to fly in an airplane which wouldn't be possible if their anti-science attitudes had prevailed.

They even drive automobiles which are the result of more than one hundred years of engineering and research.

I think this logical disconnect is called hypocrisy.

122 replies, 3148 views

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Arrow 122 replies Author Time Post
Reply Scientific illiteracy baffles me (Original post)
PJMcK Dec 3 OP
beachbum bob Dec 3 #1
get the red out Dec 3 #3
PJMcK Dec 3 #4
beachbum bob Dec 3 #6
PJMcK Dec 3 #10
beachbum bob Dec 3 #11
PJMcK Dec 3 #16
violetpastille Dec 3 #78
TheFarseer Dec 3 #54
Soxfan58 Dec 3 #2
beachbum bob Dec 3 #9
Soxfan58 Dec 3 #23
stopbush Dec 3 #53
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #5
SidDithers Dec 3 #19
mr_lebowski Dec 3 #35
meow2u3 Dec 3 #30
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #32
ProfessorGAC Dec 3 #39
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #44
muriel_volestrangler Dec 3 #77
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #93
muriel_volestrangler Dec 3 #96
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #98
muriel_volestrangler Dec 3 #99
ProfessorGAC Dec 3 #85
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #92
erronis Dec 3 #46
NNadir Dec 3 #101
erronis Dec 3 #104
Post removed Dec 3 #106
Haggis for Breakfast Dec 3 #108
PJMcK Dec 3 #109
womanofthehills Dec 3 #67
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #70
womanofthehills Dec 3 #73
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #75
womanofthehills Dec 3 #84
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #90
womanofthehills Dec 3 #102
womanofthehills Dec 3 #103
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #105
tymorial Dec 3 #33
world wide wally Dec 3 #45
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #48
world wide wally Dec 3 #51
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #64
womanofthehills Dec 3 #72
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #74
womanofthehills Dec 3 #80
Post removed Dec 3 #91
muriel_volestrangler Dec 3 #83
Dr Hobbitstein Dec 3 #94
muriel_volestrangler Dec 3 #95
thbobby Dec 3 #7
Codeine Dec 3 #8
SidDithers Dec 3 #21
zipplewrath Dec 3 #22
PJMcK Dec 3 #24
zipplewrath Dec 3 #28
Codeine Dec 3 #59
Jimvanhise Dec 3 #69
womanofthehills Dec 3 #76
violetpastille Dec 3 #81
hatrack Dec 3 #12
PJMcK Dec 3 #13
hatrack Dec 3 #15
panader0 Dec 3 #52
PJMcK Dec 3 #107
erronis Dec 3 #47
DetlefK Dec 3 #14
PJMcK Dec 3 #25
Perrenial Voter Dec 3 #17
Roland99 Dec 3 #18
PJMcK Dec 3 #26
Roland99 Dec 3 #27
exboyfil Dec 3 #56
tymorial Dec 3 #36
MineralMan Dec 3 #20
PJMcK Dec 3 #29
MineralMan Dec 3 #42
LanternWaste Dec 3 #40
unblock Dec 3 #31
PJMcK Dec 3 #110
el_bryanto Dec 3 #34
PJMcK Dec 3 #37
jberryhill Dec 3 #63
PJMcK Dec 3 #111
harumph Dec 3 #38
erronis Dec 3 #49
ProfessorGAC Dec 3 #41
PJMcK Dec 3 #43
lunasun Dec 3 #55
exboyfil Dec 3 #57
ProfessorGAC Dec 3 #86
PJMcK Dec 3 #88
peggysue2 Dec 3 #50
exboyfil Dec 3 #58
not fooled Dec 3 #60
PJMcK Dec 3 #62
Caliman73 Dec 3 #61
Bernardo de La Paz Dec 3 #97
Poiuyt Dec 3 #65
Poiuyt Dec 3 #66
MikeIsInProcess Dec 3 #68
hunter Dec 3 #71
LonePirate Dec 3 #79
bronxiteforever Dec 3 #82
dlk Dec 3 #87
womanofthehills Dec 3 #89
ThoughtCriminal Dec 3 #100
canetoad Dec 3 #112
PJMcK Dec 3 #113
canetoad Dec 3 #114
PJMcK Dec 3 #115
YOHABLO Dec 3 #116
Nitram Dec 4 #117
PJMcK Dec 4 #118
Nitram Dec 4 #122
flying_wahini Dec 4 #119
TwistOneUp Dec 4 #120
PJMcK Dec 4 #121

Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:26 AM

1. science does not overcome ideology, simple

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Response to beachbum bob (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:29 AM

3. Yes, or money

There has to be profit or benefit to them (and their big donors) from the science/tech in question for them to "believe".

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Response to beachbum bob (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:29 AM

4. I get that

But then the idiots still use the technologies that science has provided.

Without science, the internet and Facebook wouldn't exist. How would Republicans survive?

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:39 AM

6. they don't equate it that way.

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Response to beachbum bob (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:40 AM

10. I know

That's why I'm baffled.

I was taught a quaint idea called "critical thinking." Part of that discipline requires one to find the connections between seemingly different ideas.

Today's Republicans don't do that.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:43 AM

11. critical thinking is drummed out by parents, by teachers, by religion and society

hell, most don't know what it means

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Response to beachbum bob (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:48 AM

16. But the kids know how to take standardized tests! (n/t)

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:37 PM

78. I don't think it's a lack of critical thinking.

They can be pretty tricky and tactical and play a very long game if they choose.
And of course they can see that it's a Ponzi scheme.
They are taking what they can, while they can.

I think it's the belief that if I have enough, there is less for you.
The belief that if you hurt me, you'll be just fine.

There is so much abundance, more than enough for everyone if we don't hoard.
And we are all connected. All of us. Blues and Reds and rich and poor.

If Republicans are driven by any one thing it's fear.
If Democrats are driven by any one thing it's hope.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:40 AM

54. GPS, medicine and airplanes

Work because Jesus made it that way not some scientist.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:28 AM

2. It's called

Organized religion. We can pollute our planet, and pollute our bodies, God will protect us.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:40 AM

9. not entirely true, as many "organized" religions reveres the earth and its resources

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Response to beachbum bob (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:01 AM

23. Sorry

I'm sounding a little like the other side. But until we understand its our planet to protect We are screwed and no one is going to save us from our own stupidity, except smart people. (ie science)

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Response to Soxfan58 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:39 AM

53. Well, Christianity is the problem in this country, not all organized religions.

That said, make believe sits at the core of most religions, and that predisposes religious people to regard make believe as a viable alternative to scientific fact when so doing fits their religious agenda.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:34 AM

5. Sadly, it's not just Republicans...

We have anti-vaxxers on our side, people who believe water has memory on our side, not to mention those who have little to no understanding of GMOs on our side... It's not just Republicans.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:42 AM

19. +1...

There's a not insignificant part of the left that's anti-science.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:28 AM

35. +2 There's so much 'energy' and 'detoxification' woo on our side it's not even funny ...

Or Crystal Powers, or Auras, and all that kinda crap from the 70's and 80's.

Granted, people on the left who believe in that kinda stuff are generally not ALSO denying climate change, so ... there's that.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:18 AM

30. Some of us fully understand how GMOs operate

But they don't like the monopoly business practices of the corporations who produce them, such as the infamous practice of not allowing farmers to save and replant seeds to reduce costs.

https://www.corp-research.org/monsanto

When Monsanto introduced its first genetically modified seeds in the 1990s, it forced farmers to sign contracts prohibiting them from continuing the traditional practice of saving some of the seeds from a harvest for planting the following season. To make sure farmers were compelled to purchase a new supply of the GMO seeds for every season, the company made sure it had the right to inspect and monitor the fields of its customers. It also brought lawsuits against farmers it claimed violated the company's policies.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:21 AM

32. Strange, no one is talking about Monsanto...

Why are you?

GMO does not equal Monsanto.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:46 AM

39. I'm Reading That Post Differently Doc

The poster was decrying business practices that surround GMO crops, not the GMO itself.

If the topic is business practices, a major corporate player coming up by name seems reasonable.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:04 AM

44. No, the topic is science.

GMO is not a synonym for Monsanto, yet mention GMO and someone comes yelling about Monsanto.

The topic is science, specifially science denial. Please do try and keep up.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:36 PM

77. Not a 'synonym', but they are significant players in the use of GMOs

so it's quite reasonable to talk about them. There's no need to imply DUers aren't "keeping up" with you.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #77)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:21 PM

93. They are neither the originator nor the sole entity

involved in GMO sciences. You really should try and keep up, as well.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #93)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:37 PM

96. No-one claimed they are "the originator" or "the sole entity".

You should learn how to conduct a discussion. And to stop telling other people what to do, especially when you're trying to make liberals look bad, on a Democratic forum.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #96)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:59 PM

98. Make liberals look bad?

Fucking hell, we have our own science deniers, this thread as proof (swooning over anti-vaxxer RFK, Jr, bringing up Monsanto everytime someone say gmo). If we’re gonna call out the otherside, then we DAMN well better call out our own.

I don’t have a double standard. You shouldn’t either.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #98)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 07:01 PM

99. Yeah, you have rushed to make false claims about liberals

I'm not sure what "standards" you have at all. I don't think you know what "proof" is, either. As I said, you shouldn't point at an anecdote and say that's evidence. Let alone "proof".

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 03:00 PM

85. What?

I understand the topic just fine, thank you.

The other poster brought up the business practices surrounding GMO seeds.

I think it you that needs to keep up.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #85)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:17 PM

92. Of course they did. It's a trigger.

Say GMO around here and it’s “rabble rabble monsanto, rabble rabble round up”.

Mention vaccines and there’s a poster or two guaranteed to say “I’m not anti-vax, but here’s a bunch of anti-vax links that we should consider”.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:13 AM

46. And the business of science. Patents, withholding evidence, buying "expert" opinion, etc.

I agree that the Monsanto and GMO examples are worthy of inclusion in this discussion. Include pharma and hawkers of "scientific" products to treat all our ailments. Just add $$$.

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Response to erronis (Reply #46)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:08 PM

101. I work in the Pharma industry. You fit the bill described by the OP perfectly.

When I was working on HIV, people were dying.

Got it?

You couldn't care less I suppose.

When you get sick, please don't take any drug discovered by medicinal chemists, developed by process chemists, analyzed by analytical chemists, regulated by regulatory affairs, anyone at the FDA.

Fuck all those Ph.D's who labored hours in graduate school for low (or no) pay, who stayed up late at night in the lab trying to crystallize a compound that took months and months of work to synthesize, who fiddled with balky instruments, went to bed thinking about what might have went wrong, and couldn't enjoy when things work due to a lack of sleep, because people were dying and saving their lives was important.

It's very clear from this entire discourse, that it is not only Republicans who hate science and scientists. But I already knew that. Some of the anti-science posts on this website are appalling.

Oh, and let me know which poor people should starve to death because crops fail because of insects and weeds or a lack of nutrients.

If anyone thinks that people on the left are immune from embracing ignorance and fear and supercilious self-absorption, I'll take your post as QED for the opposite opinion.

Have a nice life, and if you get very, very, very, very sick, keep your objection to the idea that scientists should be paid for their hard work in mind and don't take one of the drugs that people like me worked tirelessly to develop.

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Response to NNadir (Reply #101)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:32 PM

104. No, I don't get it. My gripes are with the companies that are ripping off the patients.

Pharma is an industry just like the rest. They want to maximize profits. Many of activities involving slightly changing formulations, etc. are there to get money from patients and insurance companies (including Medicaid and Medicare.)

We constantly hear about the enormous costs of research that justify these outlandish prices. Maybe you worked on some cutting edge drugs but most of the effort is to reformulate, rename, rebrand.

For my health needs, I take generics whenever possible. When a generic manufacturer is bought out by one of your for-max-profit enterprises and the drug becomes prohibitively expensive, I'll find alternatives.

Enjoy.

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Response to erronis (Reply #104)


Response to Post removed (Reply #106)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:19 PM

108. Yes.

+1

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Response to Post removed (Reply #106)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:19 PM

109. Well stated

Two thumbs up!

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:17 PM

67. Monsanto does have a monopoly

80% of US corn is from Monsanto seeds and over 90% of US soy.

Can you tell us what other companies are competitive with Monsanto?

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:48 PM

70. And that's two species of GMOs...

Once again, for those playing along, GMO is NOT analogous to MONSANTO.

But you're one to talk about science... How about those vaccines?

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #70)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:27 PM

73. GMO's are all about glyphosate and it's adjuvants (Roundup) - hello, toxic pesticides

Because of GMO's and their heavy use of herbicides (Roundup) , people are getting cancer and other illnesses. Monsanto is facing 5,000 lawsuits on Roundup. Monsanto's GMO's are made for Roundup.

So, Roundup is eventually going to disappear just like Trump. In the meantime, Putin will not allow any GMO food to be grown in his country. Russia is now the world's largest GMO free country and is the one of the world's largest producers of wheat. It's also a large producer of corn and barley. Russia is planning to up their soybean production to compete with the US. i'm sure more countries will want GMO free soybeans than American GMO soybeans. Trump's embargo already has other countries buying Russian soybeans. (Maybe Putin made Trump put tariffs on soybeans so he could sell his - notice now that Putin and Trump are not buddies, Trump is taking the tariffs off.) Trump was his puppet after all. Russia plans to be the largest producer of GMO free and organic food in the world.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #73)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:29 PM

75. Total ignorance of the facts.

Glyphosate and GMO are not synonymous. SOME GMOs are designed to be resistant to glyphosate. Not all. Not even most. SOME.

You have proven my previous statement many times over, thank you.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #75)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:52 PM

84. Not all, not some, but MOST - 90% of all US soy, 80% of all US corn

Most all the GMO corn and soy in the US is designed to be resistant to glyphosate. Farmers are now applying 5 billion lbs of glyphosate a yr in the US, while Russia applys none and now has one of the largest wheat crops in the world. In some farming towns, the rain contains glyphosate. It's in the rivers, soil and most of our food. God, the Florida red tide is also being fed by glyphosate.

Why are you so pro Monsanto?

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #84)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:12 PM

90. 90% of all US soy is not roundup ready.

Neither is 80% of us corn. They may be produced by Monsanto seed, but Monsanto does NOT solely produce Roundup ready seed.

I should note, that I never ONCE brought up Monsanto here.

Red tide in Florida (where I fucking live) is not linked to glyphosate, unless you read pseudo science/batshit/quack blogs (which you obviously do, let’s be honest). It is, however, linked to big sugar here in FL.

Why do you insist on being ignorant of science?

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #90)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:10 PM

102. Wrong again - 90% of all US soy IS Roundup Ready - and OMG! Sugar cane is dried with Roundup in FL

According to the US Department of Agriculture, more than 90 percent of the soybeans churned out on US farms each year are genetically engineered to withstand herbicides, nearly all of them involving one called Roundup.

https://www.motherjones.com/food/2014/04/superweeds-arent-only-trouble-gmo-soy/



FLORIDA AND LOUISIANA SUGARCANE - linked BIG TIME to glyphosate. You might "fucking live there" but big agra is spraying fucking glyphosate on the sugarcane days before harvest as a ripener. Seems like Roundup makes sugar sweeter and dries the crop in a uniform manner. The only ripener allowed in the US for spraying on sugarcase right before harvest is glyphosate.

And, guess what? Glyphosates phosophonates feed algae blooms.

Glyphosate Sprayed on GMO Crops Linked to Lake Erie’s Toxic Algae Bloom

https://www.ecowatch.com/glyphosate-sprayed-on-gmo-crops-linked-to-lake-eries-toxic-algae-bloom-1906543478.html

Glyphosate, the controversial main ingredient in Monsanto's Roundup and other herbicides, is being connected to Lake Erie's troubling algae blooms, which has fouled drinking water and suffocated and killed marine life in recent years.

Phosphorus—attributed to farm runoff carried by the Maumee River—has long been identified as a leading culprit feeding the excessive blooms in the western Lake Erie basin. Now, according to a new study from chemistry professor Christopher Spiese, a significant correlation has been established between the increased use of glyphosate to the percentage of dissolved reactive phosphorus (DRP) in the runoff.

As No-Till Farmer observed from the study, DRP loads in Lake Erie increased in the mid-1990s at the same time that farmers began the widespread cultivation of crops genetically engineered to withstand multiple applications of Roundup.

"For every acre of Roundup Ready soybeans and corn that you plant, it works out to be about one-third of a pound of P [phosphorus] coming down the Maumee," Spiese told the agricultural publication.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #90)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:28 PM

103. Think Miami knows something that that big sugar wants covered up?

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #103)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:35 PM

105. Science by legislation! What could go wrong? nt

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:24 AM

33. I.was going to write this but it always causes conflict.

As another poster put it ideology overcomes science. Ideology isn't strictly political though the two have become linked.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:12 AM

45. There is no other organized group in the world that denies climat Science besides the

American Republican Party. Maybe a fringe group here and there like Flat Earthers, but no serious group that actually wields the power to act on issues.

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Response to world wide wally (Reply #45)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:17 AM

48. Anti-vaxxers are bringing back preventable diseases.

They tend to skew liberal. They are just as dangerous. Glass houses.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:33 AM

51. They are still a small fringe group relative to the GOP

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Response to world wide wally (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:45 PM

64. A small fringe has brought back deadly preventable diseases...

I shudder to think what damage they could do if they were as big as the GOP. Regardless, they’ve done major damage. Big names, too. Like RFK Jr.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:59 PM

72. Actually JFK Jr is working to protect people to make sure vaccines are safer

Before you put down a good democrat, RFK Jr recently found out that HHS has not filed REQUIRED vaccine safety reports with Congress in 30 yrs. They were supposed to file two per yr. The government not doing it's job of oversight, so we need people like JFK Jr. to force the government to do it's job. People are not allowed in the US to demand safer vaccines - even though the companies that produce the vaccines have paid out billions for injuries from their other drugs. "There is to be no discussion about making better vaccines in the US." - I am ready for someone here on DU to report me for a woo woo thread - Some here want no discussions for safer vaccines or congressional oversight.

NYT"S recently had an article about vaccines. In the comment section, I listed info i took off the CDC webpage on the ingredients in this yrs vaccines and my post was removed - just for listing the ingredients posted by the CDC. "Slate and other liberal online publications including Salon, Huffington Post and The Daily Beast customarily block articles that critique vaccine safety in order, they argue, to encourage vaccination and protect public health." - JFK Jr.

The US Vaccine Injury Court has paid out billions of dollars for injuries, but WE ARE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO DISCUSS the topic of safer vaccines.

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2018/06/12/vaccines-and-liberal-mind

Late last year, Slate published an investigative report detailing how pharmaceutical giant, Merck, used “flawed” and “unreliable” pre-licensing safety studies to push through approval of its multi-billion-dollar bonanza, the HPV vaccine. For veteran safe vaccine advocates, like myself, the most shocking aspect of the expose was that Slate published it at all. Slate and other liberal online publications including Salon, Huffington Post and The Daily Beast customarily block articles that critique vaccine safety in order, they argue, to encourage vaccination and protect public health. Motivated by this noble purpose, the liberal media—the supposed antidote to corporate and government power—has helped insulate from scrutiny the burgeoning vaccine industry and its two regulators, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Both agencies have pervasive and potentially corrupting financial entanglements with the vaccine manufacturers, according to extensive congressional investigations.

Ironically, liberals routinely lambaste Pharma, and its FDA enablers for putting profits over people. Recent examples include Vioxx (100,000 injured—Merck paid more than $5 billion in fines and settlements), Abilify (Bristol Meyers Squibb paid $515 million for marketing the drug to nursing homes, knowing it can be fatal to seniors), Celebrex and Bextra (Pfizer paid $894 million for bribing public officials and false advertising about safety and effectiveness) and, of course, the opioid crisis, which in 2016 killed more Americans than the 20-year Vietnam War. What then, makes liberals think that these same companies are immune from similar temptations when it comes to vaccines? There is plenty of evidence that they are not. Merck, the world’s largest vaccine maker, is currently fighting multiple lawsuits, brought by its own scientists, claiming that the company forced them to falsify efficacy data for its MMR vaccine.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #72)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:28 PM

74. Give it up for DU's resident anti-vaxxer, ladies and gentlemen!

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #74)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:40 PM

80. Wanting improved vaccines is NOT anti-vax

Wanting the government to do their job of oversight of vaccine safety is not anti-vax. Name calling really doesn't add to the discussion. I could come up with names for your pro Monsanto, pro GMO, pro big Pharma stuff but I try to avoid following in Trump's footsteps.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #80)


Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:44 PM

83. "they tend to skew liberal" - evidence, please

And don't just give anecdotes.

In this paper, we use a nationally representative internet survey in the U.S. to investigate socio-political characteristics to assess attitudes about vaccination. In particular, we consider how political ideology and trust affect opinions about vaccinations for flu, pertussis, and measles. Our findings demonstrate that ideology has a direct effect on vaccine attitudes. In particular, conservative respondents are less likely to express pro-vaccination beliefs than other individuals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5784985/

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #94)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:34 PM

95. Oh, you're admitting you don't know shit about it, then?

http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/07/01/chapter-5-public-views-about-biomedical-issues/



Why have you joined this thread to shit on liberals and spread misinformation?

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:39 AM

7. Big Bang Theory, Evolution

Willfully ignorant people ignore that which they are unwilling to learn. I am good friends with a Church of Christ Minister who does not believe in evolution. I tried telling him how bacteria developing resistance to antibiotics was evolution in action. He just zoned out claiming he did not understand. He is intelligent and genuinely a nice man, but just unwilling to consider facts. I would also bet money that he is gay and so deep in the closet that he will never find his way out, but that is another story. I genuinely l like and respect him, but feel very sorry for him.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:40 AM

8. Plenty of science denial on the Left as well.

Sadly it wasn’t just the conservative kids who failed to absorb anything in high school biology class. We have anti-vaxxers, moon landing denialists, and alt-med woo-woo fans all over DU.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:43 AM

21. Yup...nt

Sid

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Response to Codeine (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:58 AM

22. Probably not in the leadership however

I think you've be hard pressed to find these folks in the leadership of the party. Democratic leaders still tend to get embarrassed when they get their facts wrong. Not so much with the GOP leadership.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:06 AM

24. This (n/t)

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:11 AM

28. The problem with "both sidesism"

The media insists on maintaining the "both sides do it" mantra, by often taking some crack pot local registered democrat and comparing it to something that McConnell has done. I've been screaming at the TV for years that it isn't "legitimate" to compare the leadership of a party to the crack pot at the water cooler. That's not the "same thing".

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:13 PM

59. A very important distinction, to be sure.

Well said.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:39 PM

69. RFK JR

I was very disturbed when I learned that Robert F. Kennedy Jr is an anti-vaxxer. That's not a standard he should be setting.

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Response to Jimvanhise (Reply #69)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:31 PM

76. He is not an anti-vaxxer. He is for improving vaccines and making congress do it's job

Read.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #76)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:43 PM

81. I was all hopped up over that factoid too.

Yes, I did google it up. And no he is not an anti-vaxxer.

I was kind of embarrassed because I don't know how that got into my head to begin with.

Propaganda works. And I'm not immune. No vax pun intended.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:43 AM

12. Get into science, and there's a chance you'll discover just how small you truly are

Lots of people really can't handle that.

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Response to hatrack (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:44 AM

13. Get into science, and there's a chance you'll discover just how precious you truly are

Once you now how huge, old and awesome the Universe really is, you'll appreciate how special humankind is.

I don't know why so many people don't get that.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:48 AM

15. Somehow, you're here, and you get to learn more while you're here

It's all gravy, to my mind.

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Response to hatrack (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:36 AM

52. I like this answer.

And gravy too...

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Response to panader0 (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:15 PM

107. I like gravy (n/t)

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:15 AM

47. Special as well as insignificant flecks - we are both

Looking up at a night sky festooned with billions of suns outside of our tiny solar system (I live in northern climes), I feel tiny but I also feel incredibly lucky to look up and see it all.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:47 AM

14. They believe that attacking science somehow makes them a freethinker and free spirit.

It's a core feature of people who believe in conspiracy-theories:
They are unimportant nobodies in real life, so they invent the conspiracy-theory, because if this conspiracy exists, that makes them automatically special because they are then heroes and keepers of forbidden wisdom and stuff like that.



I have seen the same with Flat-Earthers. They love to engage in all sorts of wild speculations and wild theories about this and that, while ridiculing the sheeple who simply believe what the scientists tell them.

They pride themselves in being investigative freethinkers untethered by the biases of the scientific community... and yet they are extremely biased in favor of their pet-theory and if any experimental evidence contradicts their theory, there's two solutions for that:
1. Your evidence is fake.
2. Your evidence disproves this one theory, but it doesn't disprove these dozens of other theories! HAHA!!!







As a Flat-Earther once said in a Youtube-video: "Just by knowing that Earth is flat, you are already one of the smartest people on the planet!"

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:07 AM

25. I've definitely seen that behavior

Some people think their ignorance makes them smart.

Jeez.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:12 AM

17. There is now a fair bit of research on what academics

call "the social production of ignorance." The spread of ignorance, like the production and distribution of knowledge, takes resources. There's an industry devoted to questioning and undermining science when it has the potential to curtail corporate profits, such as with GM foods, air and water pollution, global warming, dangers of certain medicines, etc.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:37 AM

18. It's even more basic. Many didn't know who Neil DeGrasse Tyson is!!

Multiple local news FB pages had articles on the sexual harassment claims against him

Every one of the posts had multiple comments of “Who?”

These people live in a very very small bubble

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Response to Roland99 (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:09 AM

26. Dr. Tyson made an interesting point some time ago

He pointed out that nearly every daily newspaper in the United States has an astrology column but nearly none of them have a science column.

Some "great" country, huh?

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:10 AM

27. Ironic that one of the "victims" claimed it in blog filled w/astrology crap

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Response to Roland99 (Reply #27)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:58 AM

56. And apparently she was a Physics graduate student

when Tyson met her. Talk about falling off the rails.

Kind of like the PhD geologist who is a Young Earth creationist.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:30 AM

36. That is true.

I never considered this before.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:42 AM

20. Science is hard. You have to read and think to understand it.

So, most people don't bother. Politicians know that and make use of that ignorance. For that matter, so do religious leaders.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:12 AM

29. Why are so many people so lazy?

The wonders of science are awesome! I'm not a scientist and much of the deeper ideas are way beyond me. That doesn't stop me from reading works by scientists who strive to communicate the complex ideas. People like Neil deGrasse Tyson, Lawrence Krauss, Michiko Kaku and Bill Nye, among others, go to great lengths to explain the Universe in informative and entertaining ways.

Too many people are just slugs, I guess.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:53 AM

42. Life's complicated. People tend to seek the easiest path

through it, I think. I don't expect that to change.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:48 AM

40. We're a country too easily distracted by what others wear on airplanes...

to allow ourselves the discipline and concentration necessary for objective analysis.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:20 AM

31. and yet there's science to explain such things.

dunning-kruger effect, communal reinforcement, confirmation bias, etc....

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Response to unblock (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:25 PM

110. Excellent point

I’ve been thinking about your observation all day.

Thanks, unblock.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:27 AM

34. There's a lot of reasons mentioned above

But one other is the difference between science and technology; they are generally more comfortable with technology which they see as non-political, while opposing science which they believe has been corrupted by leftists and universities.

Then again it probably is a simple as saying "When I get the answer I want I stop."

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:40 AM

37. Of course, technology doesn't exist without science

Your second point, however, illustrates the laziness of too many people. They won't make the extra effort to think beyond their immediate need.

One sees this simple-mindedness all the time. It often makes me think we're doomed.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:39 PM

63. And no anthropogenic climate change without technology

The largest problems we face are the result of the use of science-based technology.

James Watt wasn’t making steam engines as a result of some kind of religious belief.

Another way of putting your complaint is that people with no interest in science also have no interest in the problems that have been caused by the application of scientific discoveries and principles.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #63)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:32 PM

111. Great observation

I hadn’t considered technology in that light. Thanks for a fresh perspective, jberryhill.

An interesting philosophical thought-puzzle is whether intelligence is a positive evolutionary attribute or is it a self- destructive one. Humankind doesn’t seem to be on a successful evolutionary track, does it?

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:41 AM

38. The republican brain is purely transactional - and short term

If the science consensus benefits them in the short term - it's acceptable.
If not, it's not acceptable. They're entirely predictable. On the ideology - or
religious front, they have a remarkable capacity to read scripture
selectively to provide moral cover for what are obviously (to most of us)
reprehensible behaviors. They don't have ethical bones.

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Response to harumph (Reply #38)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:17 AM

49. Nice post - I'll be borrowing (with your permission...)

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:48 AM

41. There Are Several Reasons Why "It" Got Elected POTUS

We have hashed out the racism and supposed "economic anxiety" and xenophobia.

But, another probable cause is that people did not want to elect a POTUS who was demonstrably smarter than they, and especially not intimidatingly smart, and was far more knowledgeable on an array of topics.

So, they voted for a guy who certainly was none of those.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:56 AM

43. Right you are

But it still amazes me! Why wouldn't we want the smartest person to be president? It's an impossibly difficult job.

I agree with your analysis but I would add that misogyny played a big role in Trump's election.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #43)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:58 AM

55. I was just going to add -Especially not a

woman who was “intimidatingly smart, and was far more knowledgeable on an array of topics.”
Misogyny helped yep

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #43)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:04 PM

57. Not necessarily the smartest

but definitely the wisest. Hillary Clinton is what I do like. Someone who is more a nuts and bolts type as opposed to a charismatic leader. Unfortunately you probably need the charisma to get elected in this country.

I was reading the WSJ article regarding Iowa Democrats. I still would want a leader that lays out what they intend to do, and has a ready command of the facts. Unfortunately that doesn't sound like what they are looking for.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #43)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 03:01 PM

86. Yes, That Was An Element

A little surprising i would have guessed, given we had a POC as POTUS for 8 years.

But, i was wrong.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #86)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 03:14 PM

88. Trump uncorked the bottle

We've seen the racism, xenophobia and misogyny that have come into the open. Trump gave the deplorables permission to express their hatreds. Now we know how much of our country clings to these old, dangerous and destabilizing beliefs.

These people hated the Obama Presidency. That hatred is why Trump was able to get away with his birther-bullshit: There were enough people who wanted to delegitimize that presidency.

Our nation is no where nearly as enlightened as some would think.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:29 AM

50. This is willful ignorance . . .

for the same reason the argument about cigarette smoking went on so long:

Profit. For industries in their twilight years.

In fact, many of the same Merchants of Doubt (those still alive) are working the Climate Change issue, churning specious arguments in defense of fossil fuels and business as usual.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

However, time will have its way. Climate Change will not trot off into the sunset. Anymore than preventable lung cancer cases did. The difference, of course, is that this fight threatens the entire planet. Or at least those living on it.

Republicans are on the wrong side of science and history because of short-term gains--money and power.

Never forget!

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Response to peggysue2 (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:09 PM

58. Great book - Merchants of Doubt

My daughter had to read it for her Philosophy of Science class, and I read it as well. If it had been available in the 1980s, my Engineering Ethics teacher probably would have required us to read it.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:15 PM

60. Good science vs. bad science

Science that helps capitalists make money = good science that should be embraced.

Science that indicates aspects of capitalism should be reined in or regulated (or eliminated) = bad science that should be ignored.

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Response to not fooled (Reply #60)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:35 PM

62. Not just ignored

They actively try to denounce the science and the scientists by ascribing false motives and discoveries.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:28 PM

61. It isn't necessarily scientific illiteracy.

Many Republicans are doctors, lawyers, and other educated professionals. Their denial isn't about science. It is about money. They cannot have that straight up argument either because they would be seen as heartless greedy bastards. That is why they try to muddy the water on the scientific consensus.

Imagine a Republican saying, "Yes, I accept that global warming is occurring. I know that the use of fossil fuels has driven it, and I know that the consequences for not reducing drastically in the next 12 years will be catastrophic financially and in human lives. The problem is that I enjoy the money that I get from the industry and I want to keep driving the big cars, flying, and wasting like I have done. Balancing between the catastrophe and my comfort, I choose my comfort."

People might be thinking that but to hear that argument out loud would be difficult, and so Republicans choose all other manner to disguise that argument.

The leadership (except maybe Gohmert and Inoffe because they are just stupid) know the science is accurate. They are just paid too much and have too much to lose in the short term, to care. They expect they will be dead before the real problems hit and so they are doing what they must in the short term to protect their money.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #61)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:44 PM

97. You put your finger on it: "heartless greed". . . . nt

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:49 PM

65. It's not just science--there's been a trend towards "anti-intellectualism"

for a while now. If anyone is an expert in a field, college professor, etc., they're looked down upon as pointy headed intellectuals with their heads in the clouds.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 12:50 PM

66. How to argue with an anti-science person:

If corrective facts only make matters worse, what can we do to convince people of the error of their beliefs? From my experience,
1 keep emotions out of the exchange,
2 discuss, don't attack (no ad hominem and no ad Hitlerum),
3 listen carefully and try to articulate the other position accurately,
4 show respect,
5 acknowledge that you understand why someone might hold that opinion, and
6 try to show how changing facts does not necessarily mean changing worldviews. These strategies may not always work to change people's minds, but now that the nation has just been put through a political fact-check wringer, they may help reduce unnecessary divisiveness.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-convince-someone-when-facts-fail/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sa-editorial-social&utm_content&utm_term&fbclid=IwAR2V3eGfkaKZuPBPZRHImzhcSFCHUiW2kkpi0yCEMK_4V3-jbGW8q9gXook

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:33 PM

68. Science contradicts authoritarianism


Science makes an authority out of anyone who goes through the methods of science (and knows enough previous knowledge to make sense of what he sees). It’s about as pure a meritocracy as is possible. Your gender/race/nationality/creed don’t matter. Your data and the way you rigorously check it are what matters. Truth matters. Science is a method of finding truth by reducing error.

Authoritarians don’t like this. Their authorities can never be upended and considered legitimate by this process. In the authoritarian mind, the authority trumps rigorous truth-finding methods. There is no robust error-correction mechanism. Error is identified by (often ignorant) declaration of the authority.

We see this play out every day in the headlines.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 01:57 PM

71. All children are born artists and scientists.

There are cultures that deliberately beat this innate curiosity out of their children at an early age, and cultures that are so impoverished that survival becomes the overwhelming priority.

Bad schools don't help. How many people have been convinced in school that they are bad at math, science, or art before they had even minimal opportunities to explore math, science, or art that might interest them?

Religious fundamentalism is another problem. Fundamentalist seem to think scientists are the same sort of authorities as their own religious authorities -- that science is just another kind of faith, and it's been beaten into them that faiths other than their own are misguided and dangerous.

I was fortunate to grow up in a family that celebrated art, science, and curiosity.

Very few of us suffer any physical limitation that we can't be curious about the natural world, that we can't be artists, that we can't find joy in our own explorations of art and science.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:39 PM

79. Some are literate in science. They simply choose to enrich themselves in spite of science.

Money means more to them than life or knowledge.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 02:44 PM

82. This is a great discussion. K & R.

I believe the GOP has no concept of secondary consequences of decision making. Add that to ignorance about science and a lack of civics education and you see how we got where we did. The lack of civics education is universal among adults and I believe it is part of the “great dumbing down”.

Our education secretary and her “to the manor born” billionaire family are the greatest architects of this dumbing down.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 03:10 PM

87. There is an Epidemic of Cognitive Disconnect in the GOP

They don’t have a clue, nor do they care to have one. Somehow, they believe ignorance is bliss.

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Response to dlk (Reply #87)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 04:29 PM

89. They are not curious people - their info is from right wing radio & they don't even comprehend that

Having a discussion with them is pathetic. My cousin mentions Benghazi. So i say what happened there. Ahh, he forgot. He says Muslims want us to follow their law. i say what law? He doesn't know. It's really like talking to an idiot.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:21 PM

100. When your base REQUIRES you to pander

to a religious doomsday cult that believes the universe is 6000 years old, you pretty much have to throw out any serious scientific inquiry.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:34 PM

112. ΛΛΞ τ∅Φ η√τ

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Response to canetoad (Reply #112)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:41 PM

113. That's beyond me!

Google asked me:

Did you mean: Λ Ξ τ∅Φ η√τ

Sounds like something about chaos...

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #113)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 10:47 PM

114. Just my weak attempt

at writing "Me Too" with mathematical symbols. (followed by n/t!)

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Response to canetoad (Reply #114)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:12 PM

115. Ha!

Well played!

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2018, 11:42 PM

116. The Military Industrial Complex sure does love science. No deniers when building jet fighters

or weapons.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2018, 08:51 AM

117. Scientific illiteracy to one degree or another is common on both the right and the left.

Our education system fails to produce scientifically literate graduates from high school. Too often science is taught as a bunch of unrelated factoids. Actually, the same is true in every country. We are good at producing enough students versed in math and science to populate our graduate schools and support industry, but the rest of the population is left in the dark unless they are motivated to do some reading and study on their own. Science should be taught as a hands-on interconnected galaxy of concepts. The majority of people, for example, still believe the seasons are caused by the difference in distance from the Sun due to the Earth's elliptical orbit. At least they know the Earth orbits the sun with an elliptical orbit. Unless they are Young Earth Creationists.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #117)

Tue Dec 4, 2018, 09:32 AM

118. There's a lot to unpack in your post

Good thoughts, Nitram.

Our education system has been dumbed-down for decades. The false belief in standardized testing has resulted in at least two generations of poorly educated Americans. This decay can be seen across all educational disciplines including math, science, languages, the arts and social studies. The result is huge numbers of Americans who really don't know very much.

I'm not certain I agree with your view of other countries, in general. As on example, India educates their people and the best and brightest come to the U.S. for their graduate studies and work.

You refer to people being "motivated to do some reading and study on their own." A quality education stimulates one's curiosity so you want to learn things. Why would someone stop learning at age 18 or 22 or 25? Learning should be a life-long pursuit and yet our systems have deteriorated because of ignorant, skin-flint politicians.

Science is a spectrum of disciplines which is why it is usually taught as Biology, Chemistry and Physics. These disciplines are all part of one big thing called the Universe but their interconnectedness isn't taught until the college level.

Lastly, there is a difference between the Left and the Right. The Right as a whole consistently denies facts until they are forced to accept them. On the Left, such intractableness is really just on the fringes. You generally don't see that level of denial from Democrats.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #118)

Tue Dec 4, 2018, 06:19 PM

122. A few replies to your observations, PJ.

I appreciate your feedback, and suspect I did not express myself as well as I would have liked to.

Standardized testing is one problem, but we've had a problem with science eduction for decades, if not a century. When I got my masters in science education, entire courses focused on the problems of why students are turned of by science, why even university graduates have so many misconceptions about science, and why so many people believe scientific "facts" that aren't facts at all.

A number of countries graduate brilliantly educated scientists. None graduate an entire population that is deeply scientifically literate. India is no exception.

Obviously learning should be a life-long pursuit. I was merely suggesting that students who are naturally fascinated by science can learn a great deal from even a poor teacher, whereas the majority of that teacher's students will lose interest and do the minimum required to get a passing grade.

I was not suggesting an entirely multi-disciplinary approach to teaching science. I was suggesting teaching the interconnectedness and overarching concepts and themes within each science instead of disparate fact and figures.

In my experience, the lack of true scientific literacy transcends party lines. I was not talking about denial, I was talking about deep understanding of important scientific concepts. I see it daily even among those who are enthusiastic about science but not very knowledgeable about science,

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2018, 09:40 AM

119. Long ago in the early 70's the religious righties were moaning and complaining that heart transplant


We're an abomination to God. Heart disease was just the way God made us.
We had a neighbor that went on and on about it. But he had no problem a few years
later having a coronary bypass.


Their hypocrisy never fails.

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Response to PJMcK (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2018, 09:50 AM

120. It's everywhere

Watch the commercial for a laser surgery place that specializes in spinal surgery. How does the patient express gratitude?

NO mention of the scientists that created electronics, transistors, the laser, the flexible fiber optic cable, nor of the doctors - most of whom consider themselves scientists. Instead, she says, "It's like an answer to prayer!"

Yes, let's thank a sky god that maybe doesn't exist, whom you have no proof listens to your prayers (if it/they even exist), let alone responds to them, for the years of hard work done by all these scientists.

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Response to TwistOneUp (Reply #120)

Tue Dec 4, 2018, 09:51 AM

121. Excellent example (n/t)

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