Sometimes DU bewilderes me

[gabeana]

Last couple of days reading some of the disdain for Avenatti and Bernie Sanders here in DU, dont some of you get it, they are the good guys, they are on our side, a lot of the criticism is juvenile

YES 2016 primary was nasty but so was 2008 and yes Bernie is an Ind. SEN. We do know that most of the country identifies as Independent?

And Avenatti is the bull dog we need willing to get in the gutter with the other side. To me he is the face if the legal resistance of Trump, the everyday face of the resistance from day 1 after trump was elected has been the women and girls of America

[JonLP24]

1. I love them both

[HipChick]

2. I love one of them...

Bald and gorgeous...

[meadowlark5]

3. I'm glad we have Avenatti out there

So many dems are just too diplomatic and measured. That's fine most of the time, but we need someone to call out the bullshit. And call it out loud enough for people to take notice.

I don't care what his agenda for himself is at this time. As long as it hits the republicans and Trump and has any benefit to the dems, I'm good with it.

[marylandblue]

4. I am double-minded about both of them

They are on our team for now, so I am happy for that. But they also both have their own ambitions, so either could turn around and attack us at any time.

[mythology]

5. In my case I think Avenatti is in it for himself

I absolutely disagree that the correct way respond to Republicans is to get in the gutter.

I think the face of resistance to Trump are the people who went out to protest in the women's march, the March for science, who turn out to vote. It's state attorneys general filing suits to protect the environment, the separated families etc.

Sanders I don't have any major difficulties with.

[wasupaloopa]

6. DU has lot's of members. It is the wrong thing in my mind that we have a homoginous thought

pattern here.

We are all individuals who each have a mind and a paradigm that we see the world through.

[Trust Buster]

7. I disagree with your assessment.

[ret5hd]

12. But we already knew that.

[gabeana]

39. disagree but no supporting opinion on why you do

good job!

[violetpastille]

8. Two very different individuals.

I neither love nor hate.

One is useful.

The other isn't.

[gabeana]

40. which one an why?

[procon]

9. Being 'Independent' doesn't necessarily mean that I don't identify and vote

for a straight Democratic ticket; not for any Bernies. Yeah, it's mostly a facade, the majority of independent voters are not looking to vote for independent candidates, they strongly lean towards their favorite party and vote the party line every election. States have different rules for party affiliation, and as an independent I want that option just in case the Dems ever get suckered into a liberal version of a trumpian candidate.

[JonLP24]

11. I'm confused on how being Independent helps with that?

I want that option just in case the Dems ever get suckered into a liberal version of a trumpian candidate.

By that point I'd imagine the primaries are over with and in my state independents can't vote in primaries so they have no say and being a Democrat doesn't prevent you from marking another name on the ballot.

[procon]

15. States are different; we have an open primary and I can pick from any party. nt

[JonLP24]

16. So you can vote in both primaries?

How does it help if Dems get suckered in the liberal version of a trumpian candidate? Couldn't you vote in the primary as a Democrat? I don't understand how picking from the Republicans will help with that. I doubt a liberal version would be locking up kids in cages.

[procon]

20. In a pinch, there are other parties; this really shouldn't be so difficult, yeah?

Don't worry about what I do and stop arguing about how my state handles non aligned voters when you don't even live here. I'm happy where I am, in one of the bluest states in the country, so I'm not going to take up your issues. Have you considered moving?


LOL

[JonLP24]

22. I was just asking questions

In this state they don't let independents vote in either primary so I'm unfamiliar with other states so they let independents vote in both parties. I didn't ask if there are other parties. I was confused by the liberal version of trumpian candidate when a liberal would be the opposite of the far right nationalism of Trump. I wasn't worrying about what you do but seeking clarification I wasn't arguing. I think you misunderstood me. I'm still not clear on liberal version of trumpian candidate.

I apologize for not being more clear. It is difficult to type out what I'm trying to say on a phone. I don't have a keyboard.

At the very least the last thing I was doing was arguing how states handle non aligned voters.

[trixie2]

36. I'm with you

It makes no sense to have independents vote in a primary unless they vote an independent ticket. They should not be allowed to vote in other parties. What is the point of having them vote across party lines and then they can change their mind in the election. What good is a primary then?

I thought this was the democratic underground and not the come in anyone underground. I have notices more independent posts and frankly I don't like it. Any Bernie Sanders posts and I trash them. I don't hate him but I don't feel he is helpful and divided us in the last election.

[yellowdogintexas]

43. No. It means that you do not register as member of any party when you register to vote. Then

at primary time, you will be asked which primary you are voting in, Democratic or Republican. You tell the poll worker, then you go vote. On Election Day, we have different paper ballots, and different scanners. You sign the book, and that info is recorded so you can't go across the room and vote in the other one.

When either party is trying to identify their voters, we have to run the voter files and sort them by party. Democrats do it with the VAN; I don't know what the Republicans do. I could have 1000 good strong Democratic voters in my precinct and never know who they are unless they vote in primaries.

It cracks me up when Texans say "oh I'm a registered Republican" because it does not happen. You will not find a party on your voter registration card. We never have enough candidates to actually have a primary vote for Libertarian, Independent, or Green. Even if we did it would be a very small assortment, so you would screw yourself out of having any say in either of the major parties' choices.

The third parties will be on the General Election ballot, provided they paid filing fees or got enough signatures on their petitions.

[JonLP24]

46. Thank you

You explained it perfectly. All I ever done was mail in ballot so am confused by a how a lot of it works especially caucasus. We just have closed primaries here.

[yellowdogintexas]

47. Part 2 It makes finding your party members really hard

if they avoid primaries.

The only way I can find my Democratic voters is to run VAN sorts for primary voters. I probably have a couple hundred good Democratic voters in this precinct who just don't go to the primaries.

Or they cross over, so I won't see them in my searches. I have to either call every voter, or knock on every door which means talking to a lot of Republicans.

I also have registered voters who have never voted.

[dragonlady]

62. A different kind of open primary

In Wisconsin every primary ballot lists all the parties with their own candidates on different parts of the same ballot. For example, first the section named Republican Party with all their candidates listed and a line that shows the end. Then the section for Democrats, then Green Party, etc. (Whether Republican or Democratic goes first depends on who won the last general election. Other parties are ordered by lot.) Each voter can vote in only one section. If you vote on election day for more than one party, the tabulation machine will spit the ballot back and you can get another ballot to do it right. Absentee ballots (including those at early voting) are not counted until election day at city hall and any that are double marked are void.

This system would not help the party identify supporters, but on the other hand it preserves the privacy of the voter from revealing their preference in front of someone who might cause them trouble.

[safeinOhio]

21. Good point..

Lyndon LaRouche and George Wallace ran for President as Democrats.

[pecosbob]

10. I'm a 'lefty'...I'm used to being castigated here when I slam blue-dogs

and tongue-tied Dems that I think should be more vocal. I think slamming R's here is pretty much preaching to the choir. I sometimes find it difficult not to talk smack about Dems I believe are not doing their jobs, but I never spread RW talking points.

I don't trust Avenatti any further than I can throw him. I wouldn't vote for him for dog catcher but for now he's proving himself to be useful.

In reference to your post, IMO all the XXXXXX haters need to go rent a boxing gym and duke it out with all the XXXXXXX haters and get it out of their systems...it got old a long time ago. Anyone that slams the R's misdeeds should be considered an ally even if they are not driven snow, but that doesn't mean I would vote for them.

When you can point out ANYONE to me that IS vocally calling for change I will salute them, whether it's universal health care, a living wage or unilateral disarmament. Just for the record anyone that thinks it's 'liberal' to shoot cruise missles at Afghanis needs to rethink their definition, which last time I checked applied to every major contender for the Dem nomination in recent memory.

Yeah, this is a poke at some of the people who post here, but as the other poster noted, we are not a
homogenous group here.

[whathehell]

13. There's lots of Bernie fans here

and I'm one if them. Don't let his detractors here bother you.

[LiberalLovinLug]

14. I agree whole heartedly. Juvenille is the correct term.

Its like a school yard in here sometimes.

The bully and his spineless cronies have taken over the yard. There is a table of high achievers that sit together at lunch who mumble under their breath and send out strongly worded letters to the principle about the bully. They all wear their letter proudly. So proudly that anyone that wants to help them fight the bully MUST sit at their table and wear their letter. NO EXCEPTIONS!. So even if there are individual students that speak out as well, some louder and tougher, in fact ESPECIALLY if they are upstaging them in their ability to disorientate the bully and his gang, then they are to be ridiculed and despised almost as much as the bully himself.

So childish. But more importantly, cutting off your nose to try and save your face. Reducing the tent to the ones that can pass the purity test. No allies needed.

[KSNY]

35. Yes. Let's accept differences of opinion

[dae]

44. 🙂👍🏼👍🏼

[superpatriotman]

17. I will take all the allies I can get

I have no purity test, only a dummy test.

[samnsara]

18. i love them both ( well, I like BS).......just not enuff to be Prez...

[brush]

19. Avenatti yes, Sanders...too many attacks on the party.

[WeekiWater]

23. I feel ok talking positively about the things I like with them.

And criticizing the things I don’t like. They are both on our side and that’s why I do more of the former rather than the latter.

[jalan48]

24. For some, Bernie's not sufficiently corpo.

[JHan]

27. oh really?

[Power 2 the People]

31. rate

[NBachers]

25. I agree with the Avenatti part of your post.

[Autumn]

26. That's just a small subset of no consequence. Purists would rather lose than have them

on their side.

[JHan]

28. Avenatti is fine doing what he's doing but my cynicism remains.

[RussBLib]

29. dems have a wide range of attitudes

it's what makes the party strong, and weak.

I just hope we are not being penetrated by Russian trolls just stirring shit up.

[Power 2 the People]

30. Great post gabeana. It's all about strengthening the party

[getagrip_already]

32. well, avanati is a good guy anyway

The other guy just needs to go away. Sorry, he is past his expiration date. He is partly responsible for this mess.

[KSNY]

33. Love them both! ...but we cannot rely only on "heroes" to speak for us

I've also noticed the condemnation of Bernie supporters here and it has made me less likely to post here.

I supported Bernie in the primary (mostly because I liked his ideas more, but partly because I thought that Hillary Clinton was going to have difficulty appealing to some voters because of Bill's sexual history--not fair to her, but, as I saw it, realistic.)
I voted proudly for her in the general election.

Back to the not counting on heroes thing...
I think that Dr. Blasey Ford's quiet voice showed us the power of persistence and of insisting on being heard and taken seriously. She shifted the national/international awareness of sexual assault (especially as it relates to power and privilege).
The woman (Ana Maria Archila) who confronted Jeff Flake in the elevator also spoke out and did not rely on a "hero" to solve her problem and / or speak for her

Fingers crossed, the fact that these two women spoke out will keep (at least one) sexual predator off the Supreme Court.

[Honeycombe8]

34. Do yu have links to posts showing disdain for Sanders? I haven't seen any.

I've been on DU quite a bit in the last week. I haven't seen even one post showing disdain for Bernie Sanders. Do you have links for those?

I don't recall seeing any showing disdain for Avenatti, although there is growing criticism of him for his over the top aggressiveness at getting national attention and maybe diverting attention from the matter at hand. That's a valid criticism and does not show disdain, IMO. I think Avenatti has performed a critical function. But I do recognize that he probably has his own needs at heart, and is getting overexposed in the media, as they say.

Criticism is healthy and natural. No one is perfect. We don't want to turn into people like Rubs, who can't stomach the slightest criticism of their cult leader.

[gabeana]

41. I don't ant to be rude, but it is not that hard to find

even in this post, some of the replies are popping off, " I don't trust Avenatti",

[Honeycombe8]

48. The responses in this thread don't count. The OP was done before them.

But if you regard someone not trusting Avanetti as disdain, you and I have different definitions.

That's someone being honest about their impression of him. Doesn't mean they don't agree with him or don't think he's a positive, in the end.

IMO, we shouldn't get to the point of not recognizing someone's faults, as much as to the point of worshiping someone. Everyone has faults. Everyone has a feeling or gut reaction to other people.

The feelings about Lindsay Graham right now...now THAT'S disdain.

[gabeana]

53. Definition of disdain

noun1.the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect; contempt.
"her upper lip curled in disdain"
from that definition anyways I feel it is disdain
now for Graham I detest him

[LiberalLovinLug]

55. Wow really?

I've seen a few on Avenatti, but may be easy to miss.

But ffs, Sanders has been a target for the butt hurt children ever since the last primaries, on here.

Here's one even from today. Just have to read down a few posts to find the juveniles:

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/100211210461

[JonLP24]

59. Looks like I trashed that thread just in time

Very rarely do I see a pro Bernie post but when I do that happens. Only safe place for threads is the Bernie Sanders forum.

[melman]

58. "I haven't seen even one post showing disdain for Bernie Sanders"

You can't be serious.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

37. KR NT

[pdsimdars]

38. Me too. It reminds me of the baseless Hillary haters on the right . . .

they just hate her even though she is MUCH better than the monster in the WH today.

[George II]

42. Most of the country does not identify as independent.

[gabeana]

49. This

someone who just spouts, the bewilderment continues
https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx

http://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-affiliation-among-demographic-groups/

In Pew Research Center surveys conducted in 2017, 37% of registered voters identified as independents, 33% as Democrats and 26% as Republicans. When the partisan leanings of independents are taken into account, 50% either identify as Democrats or lean Democratic; 42% identify as Republicans or lean Republican.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/09/14/ben-sasse-quit-republican-party-become-independent-fix-senate-column/1282373002/

Sasse is giving voice to the 43% and growing share of Americans who do not identify with either political party. What unites this largest and fastest growing segment of the electorate is not a commitment to an ideology, but fidelity to a system of governance that is about putting country over party. They are looking for leadership.

Now for me I have been a Democrat since I was 18 yrs old and proud of it, but if someone has 90% of my views its all good

[George II]

50. I wouldn't mind your personal insult if you were correct, but 37% isn't "most" of the country.

Now, if it was 50.000000000001% of the country's population it would be "most" of the country.

What were you saying about someone who "just spouts"?

[gabeana]

51. I didn't say the majority I said the most

"We do know that most of the country identifies as Independent?"
are there more independents, Dems,or Rep?
if there are 100 voters
40 people are independent, 35 Dems 25 Repub,

are more people Dem or Repub? of the 3 groups there are more Independents I said most, which means more of, greatest in amount or of degree, doesn't mean majority

[George II]

52. "Most" of the country, and "most" of those 100 people, identify with a political party.

"Most" of those people don't identify as independent.

[gabeana]

54. Does Most mean Majority?

this might help

A majority means, literally, “more than half”. Compare this with plurality, which means “the most of the group”. When applied to specific situations, majority can take on different meanings, depending on how you apply it: ▪ relative majority usually means “plurality”
Are You Sure You Mean “Majority”? - Daily Writing Tips

it is a common mistake and I have made mistakes before doesn't mean you are dumb or any of that. I probably should of used plurality instead of most, it can be confusing
You spouted off, posting without thinking, we have all done that,

The reason why I wrote that you just spout because of of the definition of spout which is this spout
spout/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: spouting
2.express (one's views or ideas) in a lengthy, declamatory, and unreflecting way.
"he was spouting platitudes about animal rights"
synonyms: hold forth, sound off, go on, talk at length, expatiate;

I don't think you thought much before you replied the 1st time if you did I apologize, but if you didn't I think spout is the perfect word to describe it

[byronius]

45. For me, the flaws of these two men are about 14 million places down the list of our worries.

Same thing for Bill and Hillary, except they're about 40 million places down.

Moloch is knocking on our door. Just like frightened primates, we attack our own through uncontrolled fear. Classic human behavior.

I'm focusing on the top thousand problems, and ALL OF THEM ARE KGOP. And anyone who wants to lend a hand gets my hand in return. Live or die. Prosper or crumble to dust.

People don't read enough history. This has all happened before. The case that most often leaps to mind is the Berlin newspaper editorialist who thought it more important to savage the supporters of Weimar's fledgling democracy than to point out the Nazis. His 'intellectual honesty' and 'devotion to ideological purity' helped destroy democracy in Germany.

He and his entire family died in Auschwitz, but he had made his ever-so-intelligent point.

[nini]

56. Last I saw this was DEMOCRATIC underground

I'm not an Independent. I'm a DEMOCRAT.

So, what I don't get is the constant lecturing as to why I have to support folks unconditionally who do not support my party.

I get IT just fine. And to poo poo the damage done in 2016 is exactly what will lead to the same crap this go around.

[Demovictory9]

57. agree. I like how Avenatti takes the fight to them. Dems turned over Bush vs Gore, Garland

This is literally a life and death struggle. Repubs are on the cusp of turning back the clock to 1950 or further

[Grasswire2]

60. Avenatti worked for Rahm and Obama in Chicago.

Hard knuckle Chicago politics.

[Duppers]

61. Same here.

I have a lot of folks hidden as a consequence.