General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI despise Trump with the heat of a thousand suns but America desperately needs healing.
We have become a bitter nation. There are always people with no firm convictions that will go with the wind. Trump brought in the illest of winds, and he has affected these people. This in addition to those who always harbored ill intentions towards their fellow Americans makes the situation all the more toxic.
When Trump is gone we need a Truth And Reconciliation Commission like they had in post- apartheid South Africa.
htuttle
(23,738 posts)or at least in remission.
unitedwethrive
(1,997 posts)is a well-known long and arduous endeavor.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)We may be able to tamp down the rhetoric, but some of those people are lost forever. And that's just terrifying.
Ron Green
(9,822 posts)The cancer is deeper than the media, or even most people, will acknowledge.
Initech
(100,075 posts)And now, ultra far right wing social media. As long as those three things coexist, expect another Trump or even worse.
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)Ultimately just a really ugly and gruesome symptom.
DavidDvorkin
(19,477 posts)Not forgiveness.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)DavidDvorkin
(19,477 posts)atreides1
(16,079 posts)A philosophical framework and a series of programs for the criminal justice system that emphasize the need to repair the harm done to crime victims through a process of negotiation, mediation, victim empowerment, and Reparation.
DavidDvorkin
(19,477 posts)I will admit that on a visceral level, I want (need!) vengeance. That may not be healthy for society, but we have to acknowledge that that need exists and is widespread. An eye for an eye doesn't have to make the whole world blind. It can lead to cleansing.
uponit7771
(90,339 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)A broken leg requires not merely re-setting, but also restriction of movement, medication to prevent infection, therapy and often other procedures as well.
And the great thing is, one mechanism does not deny the other.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,112 posts)POC and non christians, to get along with them, wont work, ever.
But I wish we could.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Trump has gotten some really shady elements to be more comfortable speaking in public.
I don't even think our current state tops some of our historical bitterness. That is when looking at society as a whole. Not just the Presidency.
dalton99a
(81,486 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I do think we need a Truth And Reconciliation Commission like they had in post- apartheid South Africa.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)But, at the same time, I don't think those on the side of honesty and decency and fairness should acquiesce to the evil side one little bit.
I want to believe that there's goodness in everyone, but it's not easy these days.
MineralMan
(146,308 posts)Let's wheel the nation into the operating room, STAT!
dalton99a
(81,486 posts)Aristus
(66,367 posts)and malcontents.
Australia got the criminals.
I think sometimes that Australia got the better deal...
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)versus a religious zealot. The latter always turn out to be hypocrites.
uponit7771
(90,339 posts)... or lost forever.
There's few times in human history fact or fiction where characters like this have been shown grace beyond what a just justice system would hand them.
I pray we do heal quickly, justice in the order for peace will help with this
eShirl
(18,491 posts)thanks
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)It's not our fault for how we have responded/reacted to the events and horrors and trauma and embarrassment and anger. Hell yeah "we have become a bitter nation"!! Rightly so. We deserve to be!
All I'm saying is that it's the MAGAts that need to come around, not the other way around. Fuck them! (And while I'm at it... let me just add: FUCK SUSAN SARANDON, too!)
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)There are always people with no firm convictions that will go with the wind. Trump brought in the illest of winds, and he has affected these people. This in addition to those who always harbored ill intentions towards their fellow Americans makes the situation all the more toxic.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)You seem to have developed some animus toward me and that animus manifests itself in twisting my words and mischaracterizing them in the most negative light. I will be the bigger person, take the high road, and not respond in kind.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Is THAT what you consider to be "animus toward you"?? Really? --- All I can tell you is that I was very clear in criticizing only the message, and I never said a negative word about you personally.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)If you believe attributing to me sentiments which I emphatically do not hold, that those who worship at the orange altar and those who oppose Trump with every fiber of their being are somehow on the same moral plane, is not an attack on me personally there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.
To dispense with the highfalutin language and use a shopworn colloquialism I think Trump's rabid supporters are scum.
The culture is like a well. We all drink from the same well Trump has poisoned it. The nation is bitter and broken.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)If you've been misunderstood, then you're certainly welcome to clarify... but there's no need to claim you're the victim of some "animus" or that it's an "attack on you personally" simply because your words lacked clarity. Disagreeing with you is not "animus" nor is it an "attack".
I'll go one further... I think his tepid and lukewarm supporters are scum too. I'll not extend any courtesy or gesture of kindness toward them that only serves to validate or reinforce their stupidity or bigotry. I'll not meet them halfway. I'll not accept part of the blame either.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)There was nothing in my seminal post that suggests I believe that anybody but Trump and his rabid devotees are responsible for the toxic atmosphere we unfortunately find ourselves in. The fact you or anybody can infer that I did is beyond incomprehensible.
The South African apartheid regime imprisoned Nelson Mandela and robbed him of twenty seven years of his life yet he was able to see past his own hurt and formed the The Truth and Reconciliation Commission to bind the wounds apartheid did to his people and nation. As Martin Luther king mused " Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
May we "bind up the nation's wounds". Let us be called the children of light.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)They are the ones who need to apologize and make amends. THAT will be the "light". I won't offer any sort of blanket-forgiveness to anyone who doesn't first seek it sincerely. NO FREE PASSES! No "it was partially out fault too".
Obviously THEY aren't going to make the first gesture. Clearly there are only two sides here: Us and Them. So if we know for a fact that THEY will never budge, then your message is one that's suggesting that WE should be the ones to take some high road and validate them.
Not only NO, but HELL NO! Screw them! I'd rather drink an earthworm smoothie.
No! Fuck them! No free passes! No apologies. No validations. No sympathies. No high road.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)If I wanted to say both sides are equally to blame I would have said so but I'm not an absurdist.
No reason for me to write a magnum opus in response to yours but I genuinely want to thank you. At first I was using "binding the nation's wounds" and "the children of light" as talking points but now I'm woke. I will support that candidate who wants to heal our nation. Hate can not overcome hatred , only love can. "Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the children of God."
Thank you
-DSB
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Besides, that's another example of "both sides" and "we're at fault too" way of thinking. There's absolutely no good reason to offer them unconditional forgiveness unless you also believe that we are ALSO at fault and that we have a REASON to give-in or that they DESERVE forgiveness. (Hint: They don't.)
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I want restorative justice, the justice like Nelson Mandela brought to South Africa. If the victims of apartheid can sit down with their victimizers so can we. After the victimizers, i.e. Trump's henchmen confess to their crimes and ask for forgiveness we can determine the appropriate punishment.
-Robert Kennedy
An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. In fact such a sentiment is antithetical to liberals ism.
With Love
-DSB
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)No more of this head-patting "poor baby" coddling of the MAGAts. No more taking the blame ourselves for not understanding them and not validating their irrational hatred. No more "both sides" bullshit.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)"We go high" is a sign of weakness. "We forgive you" is a sign of weakness. Forgiving those who don't ask to be forgiven is a sign of weakness. Taking equal blame for some "political misunderstanding" is a sign of weakness. Using the language and subtleties of the "both sides" philosophy is a sign of weakness.
I think it's a mistake to encourage people to do things that invite the other side to exploit and take advantage of the situation. We will only win through strength and by destroying our enemies.
No more hand-holding. No more hugs. No more kisses on their forehead.
Fuck them!
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)It has nothing to do "both sideism" and everything to do with the fact that Dr. King won freedom for his people without ever giving in to hate and without wanting to do to his enemies or doing to his enemies what was done to his.
Michelle Obama was right, "when they go low, we go high." It's also practical advice. Nobody can go lower than a Deplorable.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)It's a great way to flatter one's own self, but it's a sign of weakness that they'll always exploit.
There's nothing at all practical about it. (Unless being defeated and giving in to the enemy is something that's viewed as honorable or desirable.) I mean, "WE GO HIGH" is fine for a bumper sticker slogan... but in the real world, it's a losing philosophy... that's all I'm saying.
I think most reasonable people understand this too. But, I suppose when someone is so emotionally invested in this argument with me that it's difficult to admit that they're wrong and that they overplayed their hand... at that point, all reason flies out the window.
Anyone making that argument is also suggesting their belief (or a suspicion) that our side is equally to blame and equally culpable as the other side. Hence... my very strong objections to the "both sides" philosophy.
Overall, what's being proposed here, in the OP and throughout, is a weak and losing strategy. So glad that I'm not the only one who sees it. And not the only one who takes issue with the entire premise of your OP (along with all the various tweaks you're giving it along the way.) I'm not entirely sure why it is you feel compelled to have the "last word" only with me, however.
dalton99a
(81,486 posts)if they don't chop it off - and blame you for making them do it
We're dealing with fucking traitors and criminals.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)shraby
(21,946 posts)It will be like taking a bunch of porcupine quills out from all over the body.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)Trump fanned it
Thunderbeast
(3,411 posts)A full-throated boycott of ALL Fox News advertisers is in order. The First Ammendment protects them from civil or criminal liability.
We can not have the "reconciliation" part of the equation until we re-connect society with a common set of "truths".
Goebels was not held immune for the damage he brought to the world.
awesomerwb1
(4,268 posts)Russia has control over so many people in high places? Do we think Faux news is going to call for healing? Limbo?
There can be no healing until we get rid of all the traitors and we get a new wave of decent people like Beto O'Rourke in office. The decent conservatives can join us or form their own party.
"When trump is gone" he won't be taking the Kochs, the Adelsons, the Princes, the Mercers, the 62 million white supremacists with him. The (R) brand is tainted and we need to make sure it remains so for a long time.
The (R)s would put the boot on our throats if the roles were reversed. They would show us no mercy.
It's time for decent people to take over. Join us or you can stay with your bigotry, white supremacy and misogyny. We've got a planet to save.
bigbrother05
(5,995 posts)There is a lot of crap out there that was done by many that keep being trotted out as some kind of expert.
John Dean served his time and has tried to redeem himself, but the establishment GOP has a lot to answer for.
Am also sure some members from the Dem side have some skeletons, but far fewer instances of selling out our democracy and oppressing civil rights.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Each time, they've escalated the crimes and gotten away with more than their predecessors.
sagetea
(1,368 posts)The golden rule, treat others as you would like to be treated. Well, see, that doesn't work when dealing with these cult members. They are mean and ignorant and hateful! Even before this 'trump era' I stayed away from people like that, they are toxic and don't really know what they want, unless it's something that a POC or handicapped or poor person wants/needs, then of course, they will pay attention and make it so they can take away from those people.
People like us, we were once called "bleeding heart liberals" because of our caring nature and our ability to find peace in helping out our brothers and sisters so we are at an equal ground. We tried hard and deep inside we are still like that, however, they are not. There is no kindness in these left over Orange cult followers. There really is no reasoning with them, none. Believe me I've tried!
wind can also be very cleansing too, it blows out the stuck stuff from corners and cleans them. His followers, were the way they are long before trump ever became president. I think it's time America takes a long hard look at itself. We keep looping over and over the same things, we need to step off of this merry-go-round and get busy going to the future.
And that's a very good idea, by the way, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission! It would be a nice breath of fresh air.
sage
Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small; Though with patience He stands waiting, with exactness grinds He all.
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)I posted this in another spot on DU this morning and also on Twitter
>>>
Ford pardoned Nixon to heal the country and move forward.
That brought us the Reagan corruption and war on the middle class.
Then, we allowed George HW Bush to pardon a bunch of people involved with Iran-Contra so we could heal the nation and move forward
That brought us W Bush and the Iraq War and the only person punished with Scooter Libby.
And, from W, we descended to Trump.
No More FUCKING healing the nation this time!!!
Maybe if we wanted to heal the nation we should throw the lot in the White House in jail for life and then we can move on and move forward? Adding this: Maybe a score of life sentences and another 20-30 or more in jail for 10-20 years would serve as a future deterrent?
edhopper
(33,579 posts)of every Republican that supported him.
Then i will move on.
0rganism
(23,954 posts)more like "and" as far as i can tell
i'm thinking some people might just be confused by this
whatever healing you think we need, i suspect we can agree that Trump is not going to provide that healing
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)It has the linguistic effect of acknowledging but negating the evilness that is Trump in favor of a philosophy that suggests that "both sides" are at fault and that SOMEONE needs to give-way in order to break a stalemate... even worse, that it should be OUR side to willingly present our underbellies in a show of weakness (that will surely be exploited) by offering forgiveness to them... something that they have not asked for, and something that is not deserved. All this, of course, is only for the bragging rights and being able to boast about "going high" even though, strategically, it is of zero value, especially in consideration of the certain knowledge that such a weakness will be taken advantage of every time.
Le Gaucher
(1,547 posts)or sent off to Siberia
spicysista
(1,663 posts)At least, I think I do. What I'm hearing is, "America is hurt and we should ALL work towards a healing." Am I right?
Let's take this in parts:
"Trump brought in the illest of winds"
Some would say that these "illest of winds" have always been here and were simply used, not brought, by dolt45. In other words, those feelings and sentiments have always been a part of our society. One political party has been carefully cultivating those ill winds since 1964, so we shouldn't surprised that a tRump would rise from their ranks. So, they'll have to make a decision, as a party, about what to do on that front.
"There are always people with no firm convictions that will go with the wind."
I can not say that this is true since study after study has shown that the vast majority of Agent Orange's supporters are united in one thing, across the board. Race (fear of the other) was the "one ring" that united them all!
Not sure what can be done to assuage their fears. If I'm honest, I'm probably not the one to tackle that. Maybe their more liberal family members can reach out or something... I'm much more interested in working on policy prescriptions which would provide more opportunities for diversity to thrive. Changing hearts and minds will come, eventually.
"This in addition to those who always harbored ill intentions towards their fellow Americans makes the situation all the more toxic."
This, a thousand times over! The original sins of this country have lingered for a very specific reason. People are benefiting from the current system. There's a reason Mango Mussolini constantly reaches for the brightest object of racial transgression, it works to solidify his power among his base.
"we need a Truth And Reconciliation Commission "
I do like this idea, a lot. Here's the rub though, how many folks are ready to hear the truth? How many people think coal is coming back or that the Clintons killed Vince Foster? How many people believe that climate change is a hoax and that their jobs no longer exist installing asbestos because of NAFTA? You have an entire network of "news" that feeds constant lies to the American populace.
Exhibit A:
People are choosing their truth. Here's an example of a tRump supporter being confronted with truth....
It's not pretty.
How are you going to sit at the table with someone who doesn't agree that there is even a table in existence?
I agree, America needs to have a talk. We are going to have to course correct, and soon. The middle 38% of the country having more power than the surrounding and decidedly larger costal area, is not tenable. Power in our congress is decidedly white and conservative, not particularly reflective of the country.
We do need to talk, but to what end?
I say we work on changing laws by first electing democrats across the country. Fighting in every race, from dog catcher to President, will be a key part of our strategy.We should pass laws that meet the needs of the people and keep in communication (town halls, emails, mailers, larger events) with them. Staying as dogged in our agenda as the cons are in their own. That's what needs to happen. Some conversation, too.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I can not say that this is true since study after study has shown that the vast majority of Agent Orange's supporters are united in one thing, across the board. Race (fear of the other) was the "one ring" that united them all!
Not sure what can be done to assuage their fears. If I'm honest, I'm probably not the one to tackle that. Maybe their more liberal family members can reach out or something... I'm much more interested in working on policy prescriptions which would provide more opportunities for diversity to thrive. Changing hearts and minds will come, eventually.
It reminds me about what I read about police departments; fifteen percent are what you and I would say are good cops, fifteen percent are what you and I would say are bad cops, and the remaining seventy percent take their cues from leadership. It is said of the American Revolution one third of the colonists supported the red coats, one third supported the blue coats, and one third supported whichever side was winning.
spicysista
(1,663 posts)The police analogy is very helpful. Thank, you. I'm just not sure about the numbers (good, bad, just flowing with the wind) among Americans. Do you really think that a larger chunk of folks are just sort of drifting...looking for leadership? Strictly speaking of "likely voters", I think that everyone is pretty entrenched in some serious ideology. But you know what, I'm hoping that you're correct. That reality would provide more pathways towards reconciliation.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I don't want to be seen as going soft on Deplorables. Look at my posting history. They deserve our enmity. We don't hate them for who they are. We hate them for what they do. That being said I do think most people want to get along.
David Axelrod says that when Americans look for a leader they look for someone who is the opposite of the current president. Who can be more opposite than Trump than a healer?
As an aside when I see Cory Booker I see a healer. Like Barack Obama he appeals to our better angels. I hope he runs and I obviously hope he wins.
America is broken.
spicysista
(1,663 posts)America, however, isn't broken. Sure, her laws and systems are stacked and packed with our original sins. But her people.... we can never be broken. We are each making a declaration of what it means to be American. Since we are so many, it's a bit messy. Okay, actually, it's pretty ugly. All of America's growing pains have been ugly. Colonization, Independence, Civil War, Ending Reconstruction, Women's Rights, Desegregation, Civil Rights, Gay Rights.....whatever the heck THIS is.....is an ugly process. We're going to emerge as a better nation after this period of growth. We have to believe that.
I really admire your signature line. Love is the only way to beat hate.
Cheers, friend. I pray that your weekend gets better than it has started.
Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)As South African apartheid. Nothing so bad as to justify a truth and reconciliation committee. Not saying that it won't get there, but that it hasn't yet.
While the country definitely needs healing, I don't see it happening as long as the RW/hate propaganda is still in operation, and so pervasive and influential.
Sadly I think that things are probably going to get much worse in this country before things begin to turn around, if they ever actually do.
I'm not really seeing a way out of our current situation right now.
MyNameGoesHere
(7,638 posts)And re-education camps. I don't want these cretin to ever come back, and that includes millions of enablers.