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[CaliforniaPeggy]

This message was self-deleted by its author (CaliforniaPeggy) on Mon Jun 11, 2018, 04:58 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[elleng]

1. Sorry we disagee here, Peg.

Senator Sanders has contributions to make, as he's done for many years. (I see little if any similarity to Dennis Kucinich, and Vermont voters would likely agree about no similarity with Dennis K.)

[njhoneybadger]

2. Do you speak for everyone?

[tazkcmo]

3. She doesn't appear to be.

Especially when using the singular pronoun "I".

[elleng]

5. I speak for myself, which should be apparent.

[Beartracks]

111. Clearly, the "we" in your subject was confusing to someone...

Someone who may not have actually read the rest of your post.

============

[dhol82]

6. No, obviously.

[dhol82]

7. I think his time is finished.

Flame me as you will.
Not sure if it it Ever actually existed.

[pangaia]

64. What?

[Texasgal]

87. How do you get that out of her post?

UGH! This is what annoys me about DU sometimes. People CAN disagree you know! Ofcourse she wasn't speaking for everyone! CRIPES!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

103. Why ask such a question? There's no need to be rude like that when someone is...

obviously just expressing their personal opinion.

[karynnj]

174. Why not ask the same of the OP? -- answer, NEITHER claimed to speak for everyone

I agree that Sanders, as a Senator, is doing a very good job -- and Schumer likely agrees given the support he has given him. It was Sanders who added the community clinic feature to ACA which has worked well - especially in rural areas. In addition, he worked with McCain to improve VA health care. Both of these are more than Kuchinich ever got.

I agree with Elleng that Vermont disagrees.

I do not think Sanders will be the 2020 nominee, but I do hope that he will there when a nominee is choosen to support him. There are people that he can reach and get people to at least give the nominee a chance -- which is as good as anyone's endorsement can be. We need to be unified.

[rwsanders]

25. What so many people miss about Bernie...

Is that he represents where so many Americans stand on the issues. It is bizarre sometimes to read how people here think we are Bernie's "followers". No cult of personality for Bernie voters, he is just one of the few saying what needs to be said.
I haven't followed Dennis since his presidential run, but I'm not sure where all the vitriol that others are directing at him is coming from.
Bottom line, if Bernie is gone those issues will still remain whether or not there is a public standard-bearer to speak out about them. And from an article I read 72% of left voters feel the same way.

[elleng]

29. YES, Thank you, rwsanders.

[ChrisTee]

57. Except the Democrats have been saying it for years, and are the ones advancing the very

causes. While Sanders has been in there and has done nothing. You tell us what we do not see. What you do not see is we get it, and know the facts, and are not buying that Sanders offers us anything that our Democrats are already working for and giving us. Slowly, but we have been progressing.

The fool is in those demanding it because of Sanders and not voting Democrats to continue what they had been accomplishing the last 8 years.

Who is really the foolish one here? Everything Obama gave to us, is being taken away. Instead of building, we are regressing.

[brer cat]

68. I agree.

Welcome to DU, ChrisTee.

[ChrisTee]

73. The heartbreak we didn't get HRC in there to work on ACA. Instead it is being attacked, once again.

[Sophia4]

99. In general, Democrats have not campaigned for healthcare for all.

Democrats brought Obamacare, but that is not universal coverage for everyone.

Also, Democrats have not advocated for free college and technical schools for post-high school students.

Bernie has advocated for both of these programs. And now more and more Democrats are joining him. And that is good.

[R B Garr]

104. This is just laughable. Hillary Clinton started the Universal

Healthcare push decades ago. Sanders withheld his support to talk about single payer. I notice the Sanders supporters morphing into huge universal health care fans now. Strange...

Talking about things isn’t the same as winning elections.

[ChrisTee]

113. And Sanders adopted HRC's college plan realizing free college for all benefited the upper brackets.

[R B Garr]

121. Yes, plus he never explains why his ideas are not a reality in Vermont. Just

finger points at others who dare to be realistic. It's quite a position he has for himself there....

edit: it would be refreshing if he explained in context the difficulties he has had in getting these "ideas" passed in his home state.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

153. So he's the governor of Vermont and not the Senator?

Why is he responsible for what the Vermont state legislature does?

[R B Garr]

161. Oh goodness, this is always hilarious how he's not responsible

for influencing people about his ideas.

Yeah, he’s a Senator from Vermont, but travels to California for rallys. What are the California rally’s about? Why does he get credit travelling all over to influence people but he can’t influence people in his own state.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

162. You know he's on the Outreach Committee, right?

If he didn't go out and try get people to vote Dem, people would complain about that.

So, is every senator responsible for policies in their home state? The senator's job is at the national level, not the state level.

[R B Garr]

165. His rally's are about his core pet issues. He is the promoter

of Our Revolution which he claims is supposed to get hordes of people to harass their government at every level until they get what they want, but he can’t get it done in his own state.

Why doesn’t Vermont have his dream list talking points?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

166. Wait? I thought those things he stands for are long-time Dem positions.

So if he's out there pushing his "pet issues," he's pushing Dem issues. Which is good, right?

Vermont is run by a legislature and a governor. Sanders is neither of those.

[R B Garr]

168. But Vermont doesn't have his pet issues. Right?

So if he can’t influence the Vermont legislature, then he shouldn’t be attacking other Democrats who have his same limitations.

edit. And there is nothing wrong with Universal health care, thanks Hillary. Thanks to Conyers for promoting single payer

[tammywammy]

167. The Outreach position isn't about voters. n/t

[karynnj]

175. Do you ask that of ANY other potential nominee???

Did NY, NC, or IL have all of the things that Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards spoke of in 2008?

[R B Garr]

180. None of the others put themselves out as saviors

and they also didn’t malign others for things they had not achieved themselves.

Seriously, this isn’t hard.

The point is not to have double standards where you hold your competitors to standards you are not able to achieve yourself. It’s also important not to give false impressions. It takes a lot of cooperation and money to achieve his goals, so he should be the person out there explaining what the roadblocks actually are in his own state, for instance—NOT implying or inferring that Democrats are letting their constituents down.

[karynnj]

201. Everyone who puts themselves out as President does so because they have some confidence that

they are the one who can lead the country. They ALL also criticize their opponents -- all of whom had their own accomplishments.

Bernie did not give any "false impressions" - he is who he is - warts and all. He also is not unaware that getting to manyt of the things he proposed will not be easy, for anyone. That did not stop him from being a useful member of the HELP committee as they and the Finance committee and their peers in the House developed the ACA. The community health centers was a Sanders proposal - and it is a good pat of the ACA.

As to maligning "others", he was less aggressive toward Clinton, than she was toward Obama! There are many times where people complain that a primary Obama used attacks that the Republicans then used. Al Gore first spoke of Willie Horton, Bob Kerrey spoke of Clinton avoiding the draft, Dean called Kerry (a pretty consistent man) a flip flopper. None were as dramatic as saying that Obama was not prepared to take the 3 am call .. and she AND MCCAIN WERE. (This was said in an ad and amphlified by Bill Clinton.)

Remember that Obama forgave her and made her SoS. None of the things Sanders said would not have been top Republican claima.

[Sophia4]

150. Free college for all benefits everyone and gets the economy going.

California colleges used to be far less expensive than they are today.

But mostly free college benefits those who are poor and talented because a rich kid's parents will pay college tuition no matter what, but a poor kid can't turn to his parents for that tuition and is racked with huge debt for many years (compared to his or her income).

For the rich, free college just means higher taxes and that they have to help pay for every young person who goes to college, not just their own child or children.

So, no, free college does not just benefit the upper brackets. They have to pay for it for other people's children, and that is why we don't have it.

Because from the point of view of society, it is very good when talented young people can get the education and experience they need.

It is no accident that Germany, with its wonderful apprenticeship programs and free education for the very talented, is so good at producing amazing products.

Their programs are not perfect, but they are way ahead of us.

Free college (and I include other post-secondary training) benefits everyone.

Our unions used to organize apprenticeships and training. Now that unions are so weakened, I do not know how it is done other than through trade colleges.

[Sophia4]

156. If the openings are limited, it's not free post-secondary education.

That's why I included more than just college or university education. In Germany, a lot more is included. And it is good for the economy. Also helps reduce crime if people are able to develop their talents and abilities and earn their own money early. It creates stability in society for young people. The drawback is that it can result in stereotyping or channeling the talents of young people too early.

In our society, no one wants to pick up the tab for training and educating people. And we end up not competing very well in the global economy in part for that reason. Germany competes extremely well with products made by people who are trained and educated to know what they are doing.

American companies do as little training as they can get by with. They don't want to pay for the community college courses, etc. that prepare a capable workforce. That's one of the reasons we don't compete well on the global scale. Our workforce is not as well trained as some of the others.

Our education costs make it very difficult for a person in their 50s or late 40s to go back to school and get training if and when they either lose their job or want further training or education in the field they are working in. Unless the job you are moving into pays a lot, you cannot afford at the age of 50 to take on school debt. That is another reason that our economy is thwarted, our job economy. It's another reason people drop out of the labor market.

Free education of various kinds at various levels pays for itself. Very few people want to take courses or go to school just for the sake of it. Most want to do it to improve themselves or to get a better or new job. So that is not such a problem.

This issue has not been decided at all. Our country just has to get to a point in the trade wars at which we begin to ask ourselves what WE are doing wrong. We aren't there yet.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

107. Yes, more and more Democrats are joining Bernie on a whole host of issues...

Good for them... shows wise judgment.

[MrsCoffee]

146. Is this performance art?

Or a myth-making exercise?

Tell me, did Bernie appear to FDR in a dream and personally dictate the New Deal?

Just curious. Because obviously Democrats have no moral compass without him.

[Demsrule86]

135. Sen. Sanders advocates for something that is not possible and may not be for many years while

not doing enough to help save the ACA...It is my opinion that many of his supporters think that the ACA fails and bingo we get single payer. It won't happen any time soon. And during the ACA fight, there were many Democrats who wanted single payer or a public option. We didn't have the votes. We don't have the votes now either.

[G_j]

147. and the untouchable military budget, nt

[sheshe2]

182. Yes.

Sophia4 (2,714 posts)
99. In general, Democrats have not campaigned for healthcare for all.

Democrats brought Obamacare, but that is not universal coverage for everyone.

The Democrats brought us 'Obamacare' which is in fact the unofficial name for the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), although it’s sometimes called the Affordable Care Act (ACA) for short.

Also there were never enough votes for single payer as Bernie freely admits:

Sanders: Single Payer Never Had A Chance

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/sanders-single-payer-never-had-a-chance

[Sophia4]

184. So Democrats need to research and talk about single payer and persuade voters

and politicians that comprehensive coverage, whether called single payer or something else, with everyone pitching in a percentage of their income, is the way to go. We are the only developed country in which so many, many people have no health care insurance and cannot afford decent healthcare.

And of course this affects people of color and people who are unemployed (and possibly ill or with disabilities) and low-income people the most. It is one of the ways that our race and income disparities show their ugly faces -- one of the most hurtful ways.

It is one of the reasons that people with higher incomes live longer in the US in general.

Democrats need to join together to do something about it.

I always saw Obamacare as a path to something more comprehensive.

Dental care should also be included. With co-pays of course. And treatment for alcoholism and mental health issues should also be included.

[emulatorloo]

58. Yes, the issues will remain. However he didn't invent these issues. These are solid Democratic

issues.

There are many left-liberal and progressive Democrats who have been working on achieving our goals for years. With success (although Trump is destroying it all)

I have yet to see a substantive policy proposal with a specific roadmap from Senator Sanders. I supported him for President in 2016, but I no longer believe he is Presidential material. I do appreciate his ability to articulate, but he seems to lack follow through when it comes to concrete proposals.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

105. Well said... I'm among those of whom you speak.

[Thekaspervote]

123. Me too!

[sheshe2]

31. Same ideas for so many years.

elleng
1. Sorry we disagee here, Peg.

Senator Sanders has contributions to make, as he's done for many years.

[JoeOtterbein]

40. Yes, you take your friends where you found them. If someone offers a hand to help and

is trying to make America a better place to live, he is our friend. Even if he had a R after his name, if Bernie says something that makes sense I agree. If not I disagree. There is no power struggle between Bernie and the Dems, just a jostle of ideas. We should be able to accept his help, friendship and suggestive rhetoric, without recrimination from other Dems who disagree.

Updated spelling for clarity.

[sheshe2]

50. Well

I just posted an Op that includes this song.

Bruce Springsteen honoring Bob Dylan. Bruce in the introduction speaks of social justice. social justice. social justice.

I am sorry, Joe. You are wrong here.

There is no power struggle between Bernie and the Dems, just a jostle of ideas. We should be able to accept his help, friendship and suggestive rhetoric, without recrimination from other Dems who disagree.

He is not jostling ideas. He said our party is morally corrupt. He preaches economic justice before social justice. He does not like Demaocrats. He has made that clear as glass.

The times they are a changing.

[JoeOtterbein]

53. Looks like I miss read your post. I was starting to hope that times were changing enough to

accept friends like Bernie who fight for the economically disadvantaged. Now I'm depressed again!

[sheshe2]

61. Friends do not call friends morally corrupt.

Also if you listen to the song:

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land,
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command,
Your old road is rapidly agin',
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'

If you only fight for economic justice and not social justice then you are leaving those peoples truly disadvantaged alone. Money alone will never get you an once of social justice.

[JoeOtterbein]

69. I think that money buys those who will never let either economic or social justice for us.

And that if that money buys division and hatred that spawns social injustice, we need to pull it out by it's roots. And the roots are made of money. The cash needs to be pulled out of politics, like the destructive weed it is in our politics. BTW, thanks for the kinds words. It is so much more enlightening than what I usually get when I post.

Hey sheshe!

For some reason, I just remembered my first post on DU! Check it out!

[link:https://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/01/02/010216_faking.html|

[elleng]

77. Thanks, Joe.

[Cary]

154. No power struggle...

You're right but for the wrong reason. The radical left would love to have power and to that I have always said:.go for it.

Run grass roots candidates. Build think tanks and institutions. Do the homework and the pre-requisites and you will convert me and make me into a believer.

Otherwise the radical left is just rabble, shooting spitballs into the wind and being radical for no reason other than to be radical.

[Ferrets are Cool]

32. I'm with you. nt

[shanny]

67. I agree too, in spades

[brush]

4. Agreed. Been there, done that in 2016. In 2020 we'll have many...

new, younger, attractive, non-divisive, actual Democratic candidates to choose from.

[volstork]

24. I agree with this.

Particularly the actual Democratic comment. I do not agree with Sanders' co-opting the Democratic Party to support his run, although I did support many of the points of his platform. He should not be able to rail against the Democratic Party and then use its mechanisms in order to run for office. If he wants to run as an Independent, fine, but leave the Democrats out of it. We don't need him continuing to be a spoiler.

[tiredtoo]

35. Define "Actual Democratic"

Do you mean a Democrat that votes with the republicans to reduce regulations on banks? Do you mean a Democrat that accepts fracking dependent on local preferences? Or are there some other qualities you use to define an "Actual Democratic" candidate?

[MrPool]

44. One who doesn't get help from Russia

and doesn't say or do anything about it.

[shanny]

66. lol

[MrPool]

115. LOL

You find Tad Devine yet?

[tiredtoo]

80. Who got help from Russia?

Serious question, i really don't know.

[MrPool]

114. You're not up on things are you?

Mueller investigation and the indictments of the Russians gave online support to your boy and Jill Stein, oh Mr Sanders admitted he knew they where on the Chris Hayes show, and then for the pièce de résistance he blamed HRC.

[emulatorloo]

62. I'll give you a name - Sherrod Brown. A solid progressive who is PROUD to be a Democrat

There are many other liberal and progressive Democrats who work tirelessly. They get shit done and they don’t shit on Democrats.

[tiredtoo]

79. I like Sherrod Brown EOM

[emulatorloo]

88. He's great. Wish I had a Senator like him.

I’m stuck w Republicans who are owned by the Koch Brothers.

[Jim Lane]

169. I like Brown but I wish he hadn't joined the saber-rattlers about North Korea.

He was one of the seven Democrats who signed on to this bellicose letter. Nicholas Kristof has a good column explaining the foolishness of the letter.

Brown is better than most elected Democrats, which is why it's disappointing to see this particular blot on his record.

[Me.]

8. I'll Be One Of The Few To Stand By You

in this thread

[rufus dog]

9. As a Sanders Primary supporter there is one other thing

I question both Kucinich and Sanders motivation. They either both have HUGE egos or something else is going on.

At some point we all have to look at the greater good. Sanders has been very disappointing in that area.

[mythology]

83. Anybody who runs for president has a fairly high opinion of themselves

Thinking that you are the best person to lead the country isn't exactly the sort of thing those who are suffering from a deficient ego does. Yes even Obama.

[mcar]

10. A reasonable comparison

I'd have a lot more respect for the Senator if he'd use his voice more in the Senate and less to bash the party he caucuses with.

[erronis]

23. That's a good way to put my position, also.

I was a Bernie primary supporter and then a Democratic party supporter above anything else.

Bernie has some good positions but his posturing is not always positive. He's my age but I hope I have a more balanced view of the issues. The monotonic recitations are not going to win any new converts.

[Kentonio]

197. He does. Constantly.

But of course the only stuff you read about here is people jumping in to attack him any time he doesn’t march in lockstep with the party establishment.

[mcar]

202. Yes he does

Constantly slam the Democratic party.

[Kentonio]

203. No, he doesn't.

What he constantly does is work tirelessly for the progressive ideals he’s been battling for for decades. Often with significant opposition from within the party.

[Sienna86]

11. Nancy Pelosi is a year older than Bernie Sanders

I can’t say she is past her prime, nor Bernie. They both seem passionate regarding their positions.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

109. Pelosi and Bernie past their prime? Hardly... still strong and kickin' Rethug ass!

[MrPool]

118. What Rethugs ass has he kicked at all??

Sorry if haven't seen it with his constant attacks on Dems, but please enlighten us all in the cheap seats.

[Cha]

12. Agree! Wow.. Thank you, CalPeggy!

[BeyondGeography]

13. Not even close in terms of national stature and impact

Sanders won 22 states in 2016, is a leading contender on paper for 2020 on name recognition alone, has formidable online database and fundraising capabilities, is a sitting Senator with a role in the leadership team, etc.

On a national scale, Dennis Kucinich never won or built anything. Look up what his 2008 Iowa “operation” consisted of if you want a laugh. His candidacy was a pure vanity exercise that led to a seat at Fox. Do you think Bernie is headed there too?

That said, I’m sure you’ll get plenty of support for your rather sad comparison here. Enjoy.

[rwsanders]

26. Well said!!!

[underthematrix]

34. Hillary won 34 primary states and Bernie won 23

I don't understand the attachment to Sanders. His policies are progressive Democratic policies. I don't understand the struggle over Bernie. He seems to elicit intense reactions from both sides. Really I don't get it.

[Jim Lane]

171. Don't be so defensive about Hillary Clinton.

The question here is not whether Bernie is more relevant than Hillary. The comparison is instead between Bernie and Dennis Kucinich.

The point of the reference to the 2016 primaries is that, two years ago, Bernie carried 23 states and pulled more than 40% of the total vote in all the contests. Dennis Kucinich ran fourteen and ten years ago, won a combined total of zero states, and never got out of the low single digits.

I'm not Kucinich-bashing here. I voted for him in the 2004 primary. It's just that you have to have blinders on to see no difference between these two candidates.

[underthematrix]

183. I was just stating the facts. Hillary won the nomination because

she won more states and got more delegates.

[Jim Lane]

204. You were just stating irrelevant facts.

Not every post that says anything favorable about Bernie Sanders is a dig at Hillary Clinton.

The OP compared Sanders and Kucinich. It said nothing about Clinton.

The post to which you were responding (#13 by BeyondGeography) compared Sanders and Kucinich. It said nothing about Clinton.

In that context, it doesn't matter whether Hillary Clinton won 34 states or was the best-qualified candidate in history or anything else. Your dragging her into this exchange therefore seemed to me to reflect nothing but defensiveness. If in fact there was some relevance to the Sanders-Kucinich comparison, you'll have to spell it out so that simpletons like me can follow the argument.

[shanti]

39. Thank you.

[MrPool]

45. Maybe you should ask some ofl his key surrogates

they just love them some Fox to bash Dems.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

112. ...

[aikoaiko]

14. When you say, ".. most of us don't agree, or aren't interested." I'm not sure who you mean.

Because I still see a lot interest in Bernie and his positions.

I can't say I've disagreed much with Bernie.

[CentralMass]

71. I agree.

[StrictlyRockers]

15. Bernie says a lot of very smart things, and I am very interested in what he has to say.

If you're not, that's fine. But I am very interested in hearing him. I think a lot of people agree with me.

[Cha]

41. I don't want to hear anything he has to say.

And, I know a lot of people agree with me on that.

[StrictlyRockers]

46. Bernie is dreamy.

[Cha]

51. So you say

[StrictlyRockers]

86. Ok, I agree that we disagree on this, although I agree with you on most everything else.

I want us to win.

[mopinko]

16. the thing i will never forgive dennis for-

2004 was stolen IN HIS DISTRICT. HE SAID NOTHING.
some of the fishiest numbers in ohio were in his district and he hid under his desk for a month. made no public statement.
ask will. he railed about it at the time.

these career "fighters" usually have teenie tiny targets that they are comfortable with. they dont fight in general, ie bernie on race. they stick to their comfortable targets, even when it makes no sense. they dont react to emerging threats at all. they dont care about justice in general.

i wish the dnc would strip bernie of his "unity" office, or he would have the decency to quit.


ps- the whole "dems screwed bernie" hoopla is bullshit.

[uponit7771]

36. +1

[Lisa0825]

17. Agreed, and the same comparison had already occurred to me as well.

Similarly, I did not support Kucinich, but respected him, and helped local K supporters get his resolutions up for discussion at our country Dem convention. I am so disappointed in him now.

While I was never a Bernie supporter, I did appreciate his presence in the debates, and thought his voice was important. But I have been disappointed in the way he has continued to divide Democrats.

He is not a Democrat, and therefore he should not run again as a Democrat.

[ChrisTee]

18. I agree. I think if Sanders runs as an Independent, he will see he does not have the support

he thinks he does. I think he would become irrelevant quickly and be cast aside in importance, quickly. Like Kucinich in 2004.

[shanny]

70. Are you for some reason hoping Sanders runs as an Independent.

[ChrisTee]

74. Hoping? I think he will run as Independent. I do not think the Democratic Party will welcome him.

I think he is being really clear he will run in 2020. It is nothing about hope, but what I am seeing happening.

Do you see otherwise? You do not think he will run? Or you think the Democratic Party will let him primary as a Democrat?

[shanny]

85. If he declares himself a Democrat, the party will have no choice.

And I doubt if he will run as an Independent because he will not split the vote. Which is what he very deliberately did not do last time also.


I am just bemused by people (not yourself apparently) who think he should run as Independent because they don't want him in the party....it would be the Democratic party's MOST counter-productive advice in recent history.

[TexasTowelie]

94. Is that declaration before or after he runs for the Senate in 2018?

I can't consider him to be a Democrat if he declines the state party nomination and runs as an independent for Senate. He is either a Democrat or an independent, but flipping the switch because it is convenient for the next election doesn't win much respect.

[shanny]

97. Why should it matter if he does it now?

We have a big tent, I'm told. We welcome everybody, including right wing refugees, never-trumpers and libertarian billionaires.

I don't get the double-standards and outright hatred some direct at Bernie.

Edited to add: I don't care what color his jersey is, I care about his policies. That is what inspires my respect.

[TexasTowelie]

101. I don't hate Bernie, but I don't think he is helpful for Democrats.

If he were to win the Democratic nomination, then I would vote for him because the alternative is worse.

If he is going to run as a Democrat in 2020, then he needs to run as a Democrat for Senate in 2018. If he can't do that one simple thing, then he isn't a part of the party as far as I'm concerned and my vote in the 2020 primary will be influenced by his decision.

I'll also save you some time from your anticipated reply--I don't need to reminded about the percentage of times he votes with Democrats or that he is Chair of Democratic Outreach (whatever the heck that specifically created for Bernie job entails). He either needs to join the party or get the heck out of the way and stop criticizing Democrats. That isn't a double-standard, but Bernie straddling the fence is.

Regards,

TexasTowelie

[shanny]

143. I don't particularly care if he is helpful to the Democratic Party

(although I think he is, however much the power structure may deny it). I care if he is helpful to Democrats, and all Americans.

And you can make any arbitrary demands on Bernie that you like, but if you are not a Vermonter they are currently irrelevant. His constituents and the Democratic Party in Vermont seem to be just fine with the current situation. Everybody else can have an opinion but nobody else gets a say.

[TexasTowelie]

185. True that I'm not a Vermnonter and I can't make demands of anyone.

Last edited Mon Jun 11, 2018, 05:17 PM - Edit history (1)

However, if he wants to earn my vote in the 2020 Democratic primary if he decides to run, then he will run as a Democrat in 2018 and stay as a Democrat. Otherwise, he will not get my consideration in the 2020 primary. I don't vote for independents.

[shanny]

191. I'm cool with that.

[R B Garr]

98. These self-important threats are getting old. If he doesn't

want to be a Democrat and y’all don’t care about supporting Democrats, then you should want all the glory of being true Independents. Then you can bend over backwards trying to poach enough Democrats and those supposed Trump voters because you’ll be dead in the water without them.

You should be commencing your unity tour immediately. When do I get to start my manifestos about what you’re doing wrong?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

110. Love Bernie, but if he ran as an Independent, I'd be over him in a heartbeat.

Bernie is not gonna make that mistake... if he loses me, a die-hard supporter, he'd lose LOTS of people by abandoning the Democratic Party in another run for President in 2020.

[R B Garr]

119. He couldn't drop the Democratic party fast enough to go back to Independent.

These moves of his are public, so people know that he already abandoned the Democratic Party. The Independent title in Vermont is more important to him, apparently. Lots of people have noticed.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

131. Obviously there's a BIG difference between running for VT Senator and for President.

[NastyRiffraff]

158. And that's exactly why he wants to run (again!) as a pretend Democrat

As he himself said, he wants the media attention and the party resources. Then he'll promptly change back to Independent. It's dishonest and grifting.

[Me.]

188. To Say The Least

[MrsCoffee]

19. K&R!

[JohnnyRingo]

20. Kucinich wanted a Dept Of Peace.

...and using the argument most Bernie people use, "the vast majority of Americans want peace, so Kucinich can win in a landslide".

Unfortunately, for both Bernie and Dennis, republicans can twist their ideas and use them to make them sound like political loons who are far outside the mainstream. In that way, I agree that there's a similarity.

[zentrum]

21. Ho-hum. So tired of this.

[quakerboy]

22. I dont agree

If Sanders were to run again, then I would agree.

Sanders did the right things to try and create a movement. Kucinich followed a model closer to that of Nader. Sanders, at least so far, has not. I guess time will tell, but I hope that he will not go that road in the future.


Unfortunately.. You could pick the most beloved political figure in the country, and accurately say that while they still think they have contributions to make, most of us dont agree or arent interested. Only 58% of voters even bothered to show up to cast a ballot in a race between the MOST demonized Democrat in recent history and the most blatently terrible candidate in recent history.
They split the vote.. so 29% of the vote each. Most voters, 42% didn't agree or weren't interested enough to even cast a vote.

[SidDithers]

27. Comparison seems accurate to me...

Sid

[Cha]

37. BULL.. Hillary lost because of the Fucking Russians and

their Enablers.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[relayerbob]

30. I tend to agree

He's got things to say, but he is not likely to be a factor in the longer run

[quaker bill]

33. I disagree

Sanders marginalizes himself with intent. DK never knew how to be any one else.

It is fine that people don't get it, having detractors and being "controversial" only improves the effectiveness of what he is doing. The simple fact that he still stirs discussion is sufficient.


Now once his ideas are adopted and become mundane because everyone is already for free college and a $15 minimum wage, then he can and likely will fade into the background. That is the only point there ever was.

[PubliusEnigma]

38. Bernie will stick around long enough to shit the bed in 2020 and help Trump win again.

I guess that will teach us all a big lesson, right?

[Cha]

52. Lookin' like..

[Raysawesome34]

207. Or long enough to prove people wrong.

Happens like that sometimes.

[Blue_true]

42. I have to apologize.

I know that you are very liberal from past posts by you. I just assumed that you were a hard Bernie person.

My issues with Bernie are on substance. He talks about a lot of good stuff that I certainly want to see happen, but he NEVER defines a path of how those things will be accomplished. His presentation is that Americans are hungering for those things and if they magically get them overnight, everything will be grand. The whole concept is like Bush saying that if we invaded Iraq, the Iraqi people would all fall over themselves to join us in making their country a middle eastern heaven.

[shanny]

81. magic never-defines-a-path heaven

Got a lotta buzz words in there, all boiling down to Bernie and his magic beans.

Problem is, we could afford any damn thing we wanted if we had the political will and the right people in office to do it. Want proof? Bernie had a plan to provide tuition-free college. Woulda cost about 75 billion a year iirc, and he wanted to pay for it with a tax on Wall Street transactions. Sounds like a path to me, although for others it's just unicorns and fairy dust.

But somehow the same Congress/media/populace that insisted that no-way-in-the-world was helping America's students (and parents) possible, had no problem with adding an extra 61 billion to the already bloated defense budget--61 billion more than was requested by those hogs at the trough--without a peep out of anyone (well, eight Senators voted no, including Bernie). Right after a trillion dollar tax cut for corporations and the richest among us.

Spare me.

[Stainless]

43. This thread is pathetic and disgusting Bernie bashing IMHO

I can easily picture a Trump landslide in 2020 because Democrats are too damn busy bashing each other instead of talking about Progressive issues like they should be doing.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

48. I asked for civility, and your remarks are far from that.

I am not bashing Bernie; I am merely posting a thought that I had.

Of course you are free to disagree. Politely.

[Voltaire2]

55. Well read some of the other posts.

And then consider how they appear to loyal Democratic voters who supported Sanders in the primary and Clinton in the general election. It’s 2018. Stop already.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

56. You could hide the thread. It's easy.

[Voltaire2]

132. Yes I could hide all the Bernie bashing threads in gd.

Glad you agree that they exist and that it is a problem. It’s 2018. Stop.

[LanternWaste]

144. As well as those lauding him as an implicit sacred cow.

"Yes I could hide all the Bernie bashing threads in gd...."

As well as those lauding him as an implicit sacred cow. Because it's 2018.

But I imagine the rationalization will be made that only those posts criticizing him should be aware it's 2018. The soap box threads on him however, may continue blithely unaware of the year... because that's different.

[Kentonio]

199. Or you could stop trying to divide Democrats

Just five months before the most important midterms ever.

[Cha]

108. Tell that to Senator Sanders.

[Manastash]

47. The problem with Bernie

So I see the problem with Bernie is like Ross Perot. He has many good ideas, but is not in the place to succeed with them. If he had back Hillary we would not have an orange president. To make real change one must be able to understand the politics and be able to promote humanity as Immanuel Kant the ethics in the 1800 stated all himans have value dince they are human. To support this theory you must not place yourself above others.

[NurseJackie]

96. Interesting observations.

To support this theory you must not place yourself above others.

[marble falls]

198. Nice narrative. However Bernie campaigned for Hillary Clinton....

Bernie Sanders endorses Hillary Clinton

By MJ Lee, Dan Merica and Jeff Zeleny, CNN

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2774440.1472752240!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_1200/campaign-2016-clinton-sanders.jpg


Portsmouth, New Hampshire (CNN)Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders formally declared an end to their political rivalry Tuesday, joining forces to take on a shared enemy: Donald Trump.
"I have come here to make it as clear as possible why I am endorsing Hillary Clinton and why she must become our next president," Sanders said at a joint rally here. "Secretary Clinton has won the Democratic nomination and I congratulate her for that."

The 74-year-old self-described democratic socialist, who has been a thorn in Clinton's side over the last year, pledged to support his former rival through Election Day: "I intend to do everything I can to make certain she will be the next president of the United States."

<snip>

After concluding his speech, Sanders appeared to move in for a handshake -- which Clinton ignored by stretching out her arms and offering a hug, instead.

"We are joining forces to defeat Donald Trump!" Clinton declared. "I can't help but say how much more enjoyable this election is going to be when we are on the same side. You know what? We are stronger together!"
And even as she struck a victorious tone, Clinton also repeatedly and directly addressed the Sanders supporters in the high school gymnasium.

She walked through a number of policy issues where Sanders had pulled her to the left during the course of the election -- minimum wage; the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal, college affordability -- to make a broader concession: the movement that Sanders created was nothing short of a political revolution.
"Sen. Sanders has brought people off the sidelines and into the political process. He has energized and inspired a generation of young people who care deeply about our country," she said. "To everyone here and everyone cross the country who poured your heart and soul into Sen. Sanders' campaign: Thank you."

<snip>

[katmondoo]

49. I thought the same thing a while back

At one time Du was all Dennis Kucinich, and I thought then he was all talk and no action over the years he was in congress. He said the right Democratic things with anger and people all said (on DU) how wonderful he was. After a while I just stopped reading the Dennis posts. I am at that point with Bernie.

[mehrrh]

54. agreed

I don't disagree.

[snort]

59. Kucinich?

There's got to be somebody even wackier out there.

[dembotoz]

60. U call him kucinich then expected civility... Damn funniest thing on du today

[stevenleser]

126. Obama was criticized "Feet to the fire" here all the time. Why is Bernie special?

We were all supposed to take it when Obama was/is criticized.

[dembotoz]

140. bernie gets thrown under the bus so often here we could call him greyhound

i do worry as i see the party transform into more of an old gop lite.

I see very few options on the national stage for an alternative. I really wish there was.....just ain't nobody there

and as far as obama. he was never criticized on du the way bernie is....with friend like bernie has on du, who needs and enemy.


i could go on and on...no need for a rant here

[betsuni]

145. "as far as obama. he was never criticized on du the way bernie is ..."

That's really too funny!

[dembotoz]

149. happy you find honesty amusing

[betsuni]

157. You mean: "I'm happy you honestly find this amusing."

[dembotoz]

177. dont put words in my mouth and i wont crap in yours

[mudstump]

63. What was the purpose of this post?

How does this post get us closer to victory in the mid-terms? CaliforniaPeggy....can you explain your post?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

65. My purpose was to share my thoughts. Period.

I am not talking about the midterms.

[Kentonio]

200. Do you consider your thoughts to be more important than party unity?

[UTUSN]

72. A civil Rec #47 & K!1

[NRaleighLiberal]

75. From a Sanders supporter (on issues) and Hillary voter (on party)

My thoughts are that we are a unique, and nearly uniquely awful, point in our country's history due to the confluence of many factors - the result of years of right wing hate radio and TV, the dumbing down of the public due to TV and reality shows, Russia meddling or hacking (I believe it was a hack myself) and more.

Our country currently has two parties - maybe ideally we would have a more evolved system that would work better, but how to get there? No time soon, that's for sure.

So - we listen to good ideas when they arise and work them into the liberal/Democratic platform...we run candidates that support our issues and values (not too hard, republicans have no values). Since Bernie is steadfastly independent, the current model doesn't make his continued running a winning strategy for our values and principles and issues.

[Power 2 the People]

76. Doesn't remind me of Kucinich at all

His message is as vital today as it was for the last 30 years. What I like about Bernie is he is unapologetically consistent and doesn't flip flop or pander depending on polls or political winds. He doesn't have one position in public and another one in private.

We shouldn't be bashing a fighter who is on our side just because he chooses to be an independent.

[mvd]

78. Peggy actually I don't agree

Yes I have no problem with you expressing your opinion, but I admit I am surprised at the content. While Kucinich's positions were very good, he mostly grandstanded. He didn't get all the votes Bernie did or get so much done in Congress. Also Kucinich has gone a little wacky about Trump. Bernie is very anti-Trump. And Kunicich didn't get the enthusiasm Bernie did or start a movement like Bernie. The progressive movement is about more than just Bernie, but Bernie's work certainly isn't done. He's passionate as ever. Sorry we disagree so much. I consider you a friend.

[DFW]

82. Ah, yes, you ask for civility....

Some will offer it to you, but some will define receiving civility as being at the wrong end of a firing squad.

As has been said so often, "I don't mind God. It's his fan club I can't stand."

[CentralMass]

84. Bernie and his agenda are as relevant and popular as ever. The obsession

Of those attacking him here every day is a testament to that relevancy.

[R B Garr]

90. Wrong. It's a testament to his divisiveness, not his

relevance. Nothing wrong with being a Democrat or being called a Democrat or with joining our party.

[CentralMass]

92. I disagree The negativity here is anti-Sanders hatred.

[R B Garr]

93. From his divisiveness...

It just looks like people aren’t going to settle for divisiveness. We deserve better.

[lunamagica]

89. I completely agree with you, California Peggy. I just hope he is not allowed to use the Democratic

party again.

[R B Garr]

91. Another civil rec, CaliforniaPeggy.

[NurseJackie]

95. Excellent observations.

[Sophia4]

100. As I responded to another post, Bernie favors health insurance that is affordable

and covers everyone. That's not what Obamacare did. It does not cover everyone and is very expensive.

Bernie advocated for free higher education. Before Bernie Democrats did not make much of that issue yet it is vital that we as a nation, in this time, offer both college or university or vocational post-secondary school as close to free of charge as possible.

There are other issues, but few are the Democrats who had dared to even speak on these themes. And they are so important for the future of our country.

[Cha]

106. BS can "favor" all he wants.. President Obama actually got

it DONE. Until the The damn asshole Russian Controlled POS in Congress starting dismantling it.

[sprinkleeninow]

128. Took the "favor" part right outta my 'mouth'. 👏

💙🇺🇸🌊

[Cha]

130. Mahalo, sprinkleeninow..

[sprinkleeninow]

181. Cha,

"Nie ma za čo."

"Have a dobrý deń!"

💙🇺🇸🌊

AND
the bad seeds out!

[DFW]

186. I teraz po polsku?

Nie spodziewa się wszelkiego rozumieć Język polski

[sprinkleeninow]

192. Ja ne speak slovensky very dobre. Very little of Polish.

Had Polish friends and an auntie by marriage.

My grandparents were, of course, fluent in Slovak. My mom could do a decent conversation. US born. Me? I know some stuff. I do pretty well with Church Slavonic. Oy.

How is that new babe? 😍

[DFW]

194. Ah, I get it

Church Slavonic? Gospodin Pomoli! I haven't heard that in 20 years (monastery in Zagorsk). One of my great-grandfathers came from what is today Slovakia, but I never met him. I don't even know what he spoke as a child. Could have been Slovak, Polish, German or Yiddish for all I know. Maybe all of the above. That was a pretty mixed area in those days.

I know some Russian, took it quite seriously in college, but got treated like a Russian Rip Van Winkle when I went there. Having no Soviet era slang, I sounded to them like someone out of a Dickens novel would sound to us today.

The little one has already developed a nice sense of irony for her tender age (which is less than 20 days). Her mother kept us awake nights for a long time, and was even dubbed "Madame 10,000 Volts" by one of my wife's girlfriends. She has now had HER first sleepless night. Revenge is ours! It had better not be too sweet, though. Our daughter was recently listed in some prestige list of the top 17 attorneys in her field. Not only the youngest one on the list, but the only woman. I hope she doesn't burn herself out. The father of the baby is also a top attorney, and is being very attentive and helpful, so it's not like she is on her own. Our daughters choose their men very carefully.

[sprinkleeninow]

205. Hospodi pomiluj.

My mom would say that and make the sign of the cross on herself when her daughter said or did a baaad thing. I knew it was coming. 😊

You are right about what language your ancestor spoke. My maternal grandfather could speak some Hungarian, Polish, and knew some Yiddish. They emigrated from what was Austro-Hungary.

Your new one is learning fast! How darling! Babies are the best.

Wow--»your daughter and son-in-law. True they best not burn their candle, so to speak. Pace themselves, let unimportant stuff slide.

You and your 'paní' must be proud and are at peace. Good job! 💙

[DFW]

195. By the way, I forgot to mention

I work with Poles regularly, have worked with their Central Bank since before the Wall fell. I never really learned the language formally, but just have absorbed some of it by being around them all the time. Its similarities to Russian are far less than what would be necessary to make them mutually intelligible (like, say, Swedish and Norwegian)

They remain an interesting lot. The first time I was invited to meet with one of their top guys at the Central Bank, I said right off that I spoke no Polish. I was with my man from Geneva, who spoke only French and some English. I asked what language he preferred, German, English, Russian, French, Spanish? He said Russian. My colleague from Geneva grimaced (probably had images of Chopin in his head), but said nothing. So, we chatted in Russian for about 45 minutes. At that point, an assistant came in and asked, in English, if we wanted water or coffee. I replied in English, and suddenly this high bank official also chimes in, speaking perfect English. I asked him, "if your English is that good, why did you want to speak Russian the whole time?" His answer was, "oh, I just wanted to hear if you could do it." My Swiss guy made an even deeper grimace, having understood exactly nothing for almost an hour, but still kept his mouth shut.

[Tavarious Jackson]

102. I totally agree. nt

[jalan48]

116. Time will tell.

[ecstatic]

117. There's definitely some ego involved, IMO.

A touch of narcissism.

[stevenleser]

120. He reminded me of Kucinich from the very beginning. The schtick is impossible to miss. Cruz does it

on the GOP side and it goes like this:

"I'm so principled and great, I can't bear to completely align myself with these lesser-than-moi folks in the party. I am above them, so follow me because I'm so great and so pure"

That's basically the pitch. It works on some folks.

[Uncle Joe]

122. I see major differences between the two

Kucinich never came close to exciting the base and pulling in so many young and disaffected voters as Bernie.

Also the movement that Bernie has been championing after the election which is great in scope and breadth also sets him apart, this has staying power whether Bernie ever runs again for the Oval Office or not.


Thanks for the thread CaliforniaPeggy

[Hekate]

124. GMTA, Peggy. I was just thinking about Kucinich yesterday...

Last edited Mon Jun 11, 2018, 03:02 AM - Edit history (1)

How the first time I ever heard of him it was because a friend of mine told me the man could have become president in the age before television. Even on closer acquaintance I didn't believe that about Kucinich, but my friend was in the VFP and a Wobblie/Socialist...

Kucinich never quite got the national moment in the sun that Sanders did -- but yes, for both of them, another chance at the big time in a game where, as the old tv series intoned, "There can be only one."

That's my 2 cents.

[StevieM]

125. I am not a fan of Bernie Sanders but I have to disagree. Bernie had a lot more success in 2016

than Kucinich ever had. And he has a real shot at winning the nomination and the presidency in 2020. I hope he doesn't but it is a realistic possibility.

Sanders and Biden are both running hard for the nomination IMO. I plan on supporting Tom Steyer.

[Jim Lane]

172. Thank you for honesty that is all too rare among those "not a fan of Bernie Sanders"

I'm glad to know that at least some people who disagree with Bernie on various matters are nevertheless able to look at the political situation without being blinded by personal hatred.

[AtomicKitten]

127. Both Sanders and Kucinich have been on the right side of history

... more often than most Democrats.

[JCanete]

129. you don't speak for all of us at all, and you pulled "most of us disagree" out of thin air.

I grant though, that you do speak for yourself.

[RandiFan1290]

133. You don't speak for me.

You guys have the nerve to talk about "past their prime" after the last election?

[Kentonio]

134. Don't worry, your attempts to divide us before the midterms do not go unnoticed

[dansolo]

136. I see a lot of similarities between Bernie and Dennis

Neither one of them seem interested in building coalitions. They both seem like authoritarians to me, wanting to force their agendas instead of being willing to compromise to get even marginal improvements to policy.

[demmiblue]

137. Not a very apt comparison (to put it politely).

[Martin Eden]

138. Samders & Kucinich are fighting for what they've always fought for:

A better life for the American people.

It's one thing to disagree with their policy positions or to deride Sanders for being an independent who's been critical of the Democratic Party, but impugning their motives is nothing more than ad hominem attack.

[kentuck]

139. If Bernie cannot see the danger in Donald Trump and the necessity for Democrats to come together...

Then he is not ready to lead this country. Just my opinion.

[ehrnst]

142. +1000 (nt)

[ehrnst]

141. Those cheering crowds of college kids are difficult to give up

especially for those who think that they have it coming after years of not getting the accolades they feel they deserve from their peers.

[H2O Man]

148. Respectfully disagree.

I avoid almost all of the "Bernie OP/threads" here, but am comfortable sharing my thoughts with you.(After all, it is because of you that I'm here!) And so I'll express my opinion, realizing that I am an old man, far past my prime, but who still hopes to make a contribution that is of some value. I should note that this morning, I spoke with a university student from half-way around the world, one who believes that I have some insight to share.

To be fair, I should also mention that I first met Bernie back in the early 1980s, when he had first been elected as mayor. I had a high opinion of him then, and that has not changed. While I do not agree with him on everything, I do agree with him on many important issues. And I respect him as a fellow human being. Despite his being past his prime, I believe that he still has a lot to offer. And, by no coincidence, one of those things is his ability to get college students, among others, to believe that we, the people, can effect positive change in our very dysfunctional, unfair society.

I am hoping that he does not run for president in 2020. In fact, I hope that none of the members of my generation runs. This country needs new leadership. The state we are in at this time tends to prove that this need is real. Yet old farts like Bernie and myself can -- hopefully -- help create the energy we need to harness for the 2018 and 2020 elections.

There are younger people stepping up to the plate. In NYS's 14th Congressional district, for example, we see the type of leadership we need, with a lady running a powerful grass roots campaign.

I would suggest that simple math shows that our party needs the voters across the country who support Bernie, to win the number of victories required to make progress in the years to come.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

151. Listened to Bernie for years...

on the Thom Hartman radio show, “Brunch with Bernie”. He had great insight into what the people wanted. If you took most of his ideas and took off the political labels a lot of people from both sides agreed they sounded good.
I supported him in the primary but went with Hillary after that, still agreed with his ideas and at the time wished he and Hillary could get together and make some of them happen.
Then, I really can’t explain what happened, to me it seemed as he went a little off the track.
His time is past for a presidential run, but hopefully some of his platform is taken up by someone else.

[ProfessorPlum]

189. exactly right

I listened to those shows as well. Bernie had a great command of policy, and also wanted good government.

Why this board would keep shiving an obvious progressive ally is beyond me.

[Gothmog]

155. I was amused to see sanders and Our revolution endorse Dennis

That endorsement was worthless

[oberliner]

163. Dennis Kucinich didn't carry 23 states in the Democratic primary

Or get 13 million votes.

[oberliner]

178. He did not have anything approaching Bernie's level of support in 2004

He did not win a single state.

[budkin]

164. I don't agree n/t

[Jim Lane]

176. The comparative political roles of Sanders and Kucinich

Bernie Sanders is the Ranking Member of the Senate Budget Committee. If the Democrats gain a net of plus-two seats, he'll probably become Chair of that important committee.

Bernie has also been appointed to a leadership role in the Democratic caucus by the Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer. People on DU can shriek "Bernie's not a Democrat" until the cows come home but the inclusion of the word "Democratic" in the previous sentence is an undeniable fact.

Dennis Kucinich, in his Congressional career, never achieved anything comparable to what's in the preceding two paragraphs.

Bernie's 2016 campaign drew far more votes, attracted far more donors, and won far more delegates than either of Kucinich's presidential campaigns.

Contemporary polling shows Bernie to have a strong net favorable rating among all voters, and an even higher rating among Democrats. I don't think any pollsters are still even polling about Kucinich, but if they did, they'd get a huge number of respondents declining to express an opinion because they don't know enough about him (in many cases, have never heard of him).

This year, Kucinich lost a Democratic primary for statewide office. Bernie is widely expected to romp to victory in the Democratic primary later this year. (Yes, Bernie-bashers, I know, he won't accept the Democratic nomination and you think that's absolutely and utterly horrible and outweighs all other factors. Spare me. The issue is the OP's comparison of the political roles of these two politicians, and the point is that the people who vote in the Democratic primary are not likely to follow the advice of the Bernie-bashing brigade on DU.)

It's true that there are some similarities. For example, they both voted against the Iraq War Resolution. On that important test of public policy, some D-after-their-name Democrats flunked. Still, in terms of their political roles (the subject you addressed), Kucinich is essentially on the sidelines at this point, while Bernie Sanders continues to play a role -- and, in the opinion of many Democrats, continues to make important contributions.

[Adrahil]

187. I think Bernie sees himself as coopting the party.

He knows a third party will just condemn this country to electoral hell. And he seemed to understand the danger of splitting the party early, but I think that might have just been rhetoric, He's hoping for JUST enough support to leverage into a platform for himself and his views, knowing that the rest of us will vote for him because in large measure we support his ideas, even if we find him personally problematic.

I mean, he's not wrong. I'm really very, very irritated with him, but I would absolutely vote for him if he won the nomination.

But he does not now, nor has he ever cared even a little bit about the party as a whole.

[ProfessorPlum]

190. It's not even Sanders so much as that his ideas and ideals are ones that lots of people

even people on the other "team", can recognize as ones that they also hold, and that would benefit them.

The Democratic party should start adopting popular policy ideas that most people hold, because . . . wait for it. . . that's how you generate enthusiasm and win elections.

[we can do it]

193. I agree.

Bernie could help everyone buying doing his as a senator well. Bashing Democrats continually helps repubes.

[Gothmog]

196. Economist--Berned out

This article makes me smile https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/09/berned-out

None of Mr Sanders’s other big ideas—including free college and massive public works—is getting much play. Nor have Sanders-endorsed candidates fared well in the primaries. Our Revolution, a group Mr Sanders formed to promote his acolytes, has been a failure. “It doesn’t do anything,” gripes a strategist for one of its candidates.

Rumpled, crumpled, Trumpled

The energy on the left is focused on opposing Mr Trump’s attack on liberal democracy, not on carrying forward Mr Sanders’s revolution. The success of moderate candidates in the Democratic primaries suggests this is making the party more pragmatic and mindful of party unity than Mr Sanders, an ideologue who is not a Democratic Party member, might like.

[tavernier]

206. This is an unwinnable game, Peggy.

Might as well insert the tic tac toe variable until it officially declares No Winner, Game Over.

Love you for trying, though.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

208. Something occurred to me today, about Bernie Sanders and his political role.

He's starting to remind me of Dennis Kucinich.

They're both past their primes and keep hanging on and hanging on, hoping and fighting for ......what? Another chance at the big time?

I guess they think they still have contributions to make, but most of us don't agree, or aren't interested.

Just my 2 cents.


On edit: Whether or not you agree, you have a right to say what you want. I do expect civility.


OK. I am locking the thread. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions.