Blaming the victim? Suicide

[cyclonefence]

People who are on the verge of killing themselves are often not capable of asking for help. It's a well-known symptom of depression that it affects your intellectual abilities, slows down your thought processes, and distorts reality. When you are so depressed that you are genuinely ready to kill yourself, you are in no place to think clearly, much less realize that you should reach out to a suicide hotline.

I know this from personal experience. If my husband hadn't happened on me crying so hard I couldn't speak and forcibly taken me to the doctor's office, I would have parked our van in a secluded area of a nearby park, drunk the bottle of vodka I had in the front seat, and put the plastic bag over my head.

It angers me when the first public response to a celebrity suicide always includes telling people who want to kill themselves to get help. If they were capable of getting help for themselves, they wouldn't be ready to kill themselves, assholes.

[cpamomfromtexas]

1. Thank you for saying this.

I suffer from depression too.

[cyclonefence]

3. ...

[Demsrule86]

8. I hope you are doing alright. My daughter as part of her therapy explained the pain she felt

everyday...how she just wanted it to stop.

[cyclonefence]

15. At that visit to the doctor

I was prescribed a combination of Prozac and Wellbutrin. Twenty years later, it's kept me level. I had had years of talk therapy, but that doesn't mean it won't help your daughter. Everyone is different, of course; my son went through a bad patch (he had to be hospitalized) and talk therapy brought him through. He is fine today, and I hope your daughter will do as well. What helped him most was learning that bad as he felt, the feeling would eventually get better if he waited and didn't panic. I think convincing suicidal people to wait out the pain--and of course that's so hard--may be part of the key.

It's awful to know your child is suffering and not know what to do.

Thank god someone alerted you in time to save her. And anyone who doesn't understand the physical ramifications of depression--your daughter's pain is as real as a broken leg--has no business giving advice about getting help.

[Demsrule86]

19. I agree with every word you say...and the current doctor has told her

the pain will pass...if you give it enough time. He is old school and sees her every week. She also has a psychologist who listens and works on coping skills. It is so frightening and we need to do better in terms of treatment options. Glad you are doing well.

[cpamomfromtexas]

28. Yes. I agree. No fear of death but fear dealing

With an abusive father who still threatens my family.

[cyclonefence]

32. Oh my

This is just awful. How do you protect yourself?

[cpamomfromtexas]

106. It was difficult. Even now I struggle with depression

His rantings and recent crimes (working on legal issues) leave me paralyzed

[cyclonefence]

110. It's so unfair that you are in this difficult position

plus having to deal with it while you are depressed, which makes everything a thousand times harder. I hope you are able to hang in there and do what must be done. I don't know what words of encouragement I can offer, but know that I'm pulling for you.

[cpamomfromtexas]

113. Thank you. Its amazing what comfort I get

From this community.

[Demsrule86]

59. So sorry...this must be so horrible for you.

[cpamomfromtexas]

107. I am working on legal options.

He acts like Trump with threat of violence at every moment. I tried to be the respectful child that helped and served them but no more.

Parents just committed multiple financial crimes against me.

[Demsrule86]

109. Dear God I hope you win.

[cpamomfromtexas]

112. Thank you

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

83. I'm sorry Demsrule.

I am glad you shared that. Good things and better days for your family, would be my hope to whatever in this world that make good things happen for all of us. I'm sure she is glad Mom's engaged in her recovery.

[Demsrule86]

101. Some days she is glad and others not so much...she was hospitalized against her will.

Thus, she was very angry with me. But I see my daughter again...for a while she was so different. She is alive and that is all that matters right now. I think she is doing better...back in college and she has a girlfriend...one of the hardest things for me is the guilt I feel that I failed her. I wasn't always great on gay issues. Oh, I wasn't a hater...I was one of those types who merely wanted it to go away. I didn't want to talk about it or think about it. I evolved over the years on this issue.

I did not know at the time, my daughter was gay or even understand what that meant... I supported her when she came out which was before the became ill or at least when I knew about her illness...but I always wonder if those early years when I didn't understand what she was going through and maybe wasn't supportive enough in ways she needed led to this illness... I will never know for sure, and that is hard to live with.

[oberliner]

2. The "telling people to get help" is presumably to assist others in need

And maybe encourage some of them to get help rather than committing suicide.

[cyclonefence]

4. You think?

[whathehell]

38. I think

and if urging the suicidal outside of one's personal circle to seek help is such an awful idea, what is your alternative? To say nothing?

[cyclonefence]

42. Why does there have to be an alternative to a pointless and ineffectual solution?

Some problems just can't be solved, at least not now. Telling suicidally depressed people to seek help is useless--read some of the posts in this thread--because when you are that depressed, your pain is such that all you want is to end the pain. People who are depressed but not to the point of suicide don't need to be told to seek help because they are capable of seeking help. Telling suicidal people to seek help is like telling a cancer patient not to grow tumors.

Continuing to do this unhelpful exercise is insulting to deeply depressed people and feels to me like blaming people who commit suicide for not having sought help.

[whathehell]

51. Because the urge to help is both natural and positive..

and guess what?...You don't necessarily represent everyone who has gone through a deep depression -- I've been through two clinical depressions, and the suggestions of others to seek help didn't "insult" or bother me a bit.
Frankly, you sound like someone with a lot of misplaced anger who is looking for a scapegoat.

[cyclonefence]

62. I'm glad you survived your two clinical depressions

And I'm sorry I'm not articulate enough to make clearer to you what I'm saying. The urge to help, when misplaced and mistimed, can be infuriating. Shouting to the drowning man "why didn't you wear a life jacket" is analogous to what I'm trying to say--that, or announcing after the man drowns "he should have asked for a life jacket."

[whathehell]

74. Thanks, I never really doubted I'd survive, but I DID suffer a lot

and for a long time.

What I don't understand is how suggesting that a person who is considering suicide seek help is "blame".

To blame someone who's ALREADY committed suicide for not seeking help, that's something else, and I totally understand your point.

[cyclonefence]

75. But that's exactly what I'm trying to say!

that all the "seek help" that comes out *after* a suicide seems to me to be blaming the suicide for not seeking help!

[whathehell]

94. ----------

It certainly doesn't seem right to "blame" someone who's already paid the ultimate price, but it's such a painful and tragic occurrence, not just for the suicide, but for those close to him/her, that they likely can't help, at least initially, but feel angry & frustrated at what they may perceive as a lack of "trying" on the suicide's part.
I have heard of a "resistance" to seeking help from males, especially those in a macho/ miliary environment, and the culture that does that is a legitimate source of anger, in my opinion, and deserves "correction".

[cyclonefence]

97. When my best friend jumped off a skyscraper in Chicago

I was stunned that my response was anger. I was so mad at her! And I even knew why she had done it--she was deep into drugs and had been hospitalized against her will by her family. I knew her act was a big FU to her father. But depriving me of her company just fried my gills. It took me years to get over my wrath. I miss her so much.

[whathehell]

99. So sorry this happened to you..

Your anger is quite understandable -- Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem -- I'm grateful that it never touched my life in a personal way like that.

[TexasBushwhacker]

96. That's one way of looking at it

Another way is that by encouraging LIVING people who are depressed and/or suicidal to reach out and get help, some suicides might be prevented.

However, all of the burden shouldn't be put on the depressed person. While some people suffer in silence, others have friends and family who know they are struggling. People need to know how to help someone who is depressed. Kate Spade had apparently been struggling for years, yet she was never hospitalized because she was worried about her image. In hindsight, I wish her family had insisted that she go into a psychiatric facility. I had to get my bipolar and very paranoid dad picked up once. It was difficult, but I couldn't live with myself if he had hurt himself or someone else.

[Demsrule86]

6. Really...it doesn't work that way in most cases.

My daughter would never agreed to get help...we hospitalized her against her will and it was the hardest most terrible thing I have ever had to do. It saved her life...I don't doubt that.

[liberalmuse]

52. If only it were that easy.

Sometimes it takes years to get the right combination of meds, oftentimes for them to only work a short time and then become ineffective, so it begins again. Or sitting in a psychiatrist’s or counselor’s office, alone for most of the time until they make a brief appearance, just long enough to be able to bill your insurance an extravagant amount for that hour or half hour. Or having a counselor who hands you little cards with sayings on them, which don’t really help when you’re deeply depressed. “Get help.” “Take a pill.” If only it were so simple. It’s exhausting.

There have been 2 suicides in my immediate family and 2 of us are clinging to each other on a life raft so we don’t follow, and still there’s no guarantee. If suicide were a cowardly act I’d have done it decades ago. Selfish? The chronically depressed person believes they are a burden to their loved ones, and they are, not realizing their family won’t remember that when they’re gone and would bargain everything to have them back.

If you know anyone who has mentioned suicide or depression, please talk to them. They will tell you everything is fine, so go there. Get dark and ask them if they’re struggling inside. This one hits hard, and I can guarantee a lot of people are feeling like Timothy Hutton in “Ordinary People” after hearing his friend committed suicide. That a man so self aware and who seemed to have a zest for experiencing everything life had to offer decided to end his life is going to have them wondering what they are hanging on for.

Thank you for this thread, OP.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

86. Helps that other people say the words bc then,

it's undeniable they know, YOU know there's a problem. It's a sad reality in this country and beyond.

[Demsrule86]

5. I get it. My daughter came within inches of killing herself. I never knew until one of her social

media friends alerted us. She was hospitalized and it has been two years now. And I am afraid everyday. She seems to be doing well but you can never be sure. This is a lifelong illness mostly. There is little mental health support in this country even for those with insurance.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. The media is often a delivery device for institutional pablum

They deal with the opioid crisis the same way.

[Oneironaut]

20. Thank you. I'm not the only one annoyed by this.

I’m purposely avoiding the news today, as I have no desire to listen to an onslaught of pseudo-intellectual horseshit about suicide.

[Demsrule86]

69. I always have more fear when suicide is in the news...it affects my daughter and others I am sure.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

87. Near where I live

theres a standing labyrinth. It's soothing, and a micro-challenge to get around it to the end. Something about regaining control, making the right decisions, and getting to the end safely to do it again the next week if I can. Life is a lot like the labyrinth to me. If I keep my head down and focus on the path...I make it out ok.

[Demsrule86]

100. That is a good way to look at it.

[nolabear]

9. Yes, but it's not a bad response. It can help those not quite unable to.

Encouraging people to seek help and supporting the idea that it’s not shameful to have those feelings can help people along the continuum but not beyond reach. In my years as a therapist I talked to many a person who I helped hang on for long enough for things to be able to help, situations or meds or...well, sometimes it just got better. Not always. I never lacked respect for anyone who was consumed. But we fought together and I’m glad for every one.

[Demsrule86]

14. I wish I could make people understand that it doesn't work that way. And even if you get 'help',

it most involves getting a pill once a month and the medicine has side effects. It can take over a month to get in to see someone...and you will be advised to got to a hospital if it is an extreme case. If you don't have insurance, I don't know how you get care. No one will see you without first paying. And there are fees to get started. Also, not all drugs work for everyone...so the medicine can worsen things. It is hard to find a psychologist or even a psychiatrist...good luck if you are on heavy duty anti-depressants or have been hospitalized. Many doctors won't take 'troublesome' patients. They want to fork out a pill every one to three months and not have to work much. Three turned my daughter down. If you go to the psychiatrist and say the medicine isn't working or you are still having suicidal thoughts, he/she will often say well you need to go back to the 'hospital' and most are terrible places so the patient ends up lying to their doctors. I will be forever grateful to the hospital that saved my daughter's life, but it is underfunded and badly staffed. It is a terrible situation. And few are choosing to practice in this field due to the lack of mental health infrastructure so it can only get worse. I had insurance and was able to leave my job to work on this fulltime...and it was still hard. I live in fear everyday...that it won't be enough and we may lose her.

[nolabear]

40. I'm so sorry about all of this.

Everything you say is true, though not always. I and many practitioners I know saw people for little or nothing sometimes but you can’t see everyone. And yes, there are people who can’t or won’t see suicidal patients. I’ve seen good and terrible inpatient resources.

Keep advocating. We need real innovation and different thinking. And times are terrible right now.

❤️

[Demsrule86]

58. I try. I belong to a number of organzations...please understand I am not coming down

on psychiatrists or psychologists. I have met many who are wonderful, but there is no infrastructure in place, and they can only do so much..it has been my experience that many young people who overdose are trying to self-medicate as there are few other options for them.

[nolabear]

60. I'm not offended. It's incredibly hard and complex.

[Demsrule86]

68. It shouldn't be, but it is.

[cyclonefence]

16. I understand what you're saying and I respect and thank you for the hard work you're doing

but I think everyone knows that there is help out there, that if you're feeling suicidal you should reach out. If knowing that there's no shame in getting help for depression were not common knowledge, then I'd applaud announcements like the ones on CNN telling us what to do if we're depressed.

I think it's important that you say"not beyond reach." When I was suicidal, I was beyond reach. My husband literally had to physically force me to come with him to the doctor's office. I had spent years talking with psychologists and psychiatrists--depression runs in my family--and yet I was unable to ask for help when it came down to it. I had everything to live for, but I was physically unable to ask for help.

I am certain that Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade knew there was help available. They were clearly unable to ask for it when they really needed it. I guess that's my point.

[smirkymonkey]

30. That is what people don't understand. Surely these wealthy people had access to the

best help money could buy, but they still took their own lives. When one feels such deep despair, they see no point in seeking help and they only want the pain to end. They don't believe that anything or anybody can help them.

It is often a lie that their depression tells them, but when you are in that state you honestly believe it. That is how depression is so insidious. It completely takes you over, body and soul and most people are powerless once they are in the grip of it. You cannot ask for help when you think you are beyond help.

[nolabear]

44. Absolutely. There are no easy answers. Sometimes there are none.

It’s one of the hardest things in the world to try to reach into that drowning place and try to hang on to someone who can’t get out.

People don’t understand the Herculean effort some are making every single day. ❤️

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

88. Pretty touching.

I bet you are low-balling your influence, and I'm sure lots of folks love you and what you've done to help. Thnks for making the world a better place Doc.

[nolabear]

89. Everything's a two way street cher.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

91. Yes.

One hand washes the other, and both hands wash the face. (of grief in life).

[Arkansas Granny]

10. Thank you for sharing this. Most of us, myself included, have no idea how to deal with loved ones

who may be on this path.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

90. Stay with them

Gram. Hard as it may be over a protracted period of time, considering obstacles in everyones life. Thinking about West Memphis. Reading your name, and armadillos...I only thought they were out west.

[cbdo2007]

11. Many people teeter in and out of that level of depression...

the goal is to put that idea into their minds, so that if there is a fleeting moment when they can coherently think, hopefully they will get some help or reach out to someone to get the help they need.

I definitely understand your viewpoint here, but the last thing I would ever want in these types of circumstances if for us NOT to use this opportunity to put it out there, to reach out if you are even having minor thoughts of suicide.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

92. That's a great answer.

To a topic that we just can't ignore. Sad people. So wish we had caring leadership.

[mythology]

12. So your theory is because it wouldn't have helped you

We should shut down suicide prevention efforts? That's just silly.

Here's how that logic plays out. Since some people who are suicidal commit suicide even after external intervention, we should stop external intervention like that which helped you.

[cyclonefence]

18. Ah, the good old argument ad absurdum

No, that's not what I suggested at all. I have no "theory." I'm just tired of people insinuating that if you kill yourself it's your own fault for not having asked for help. Most depressed people have asked for help.

[treestar]

61. No one said that

Nor is it insinuated.

[oasis]

13. People need to listen and try to understand. nt

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

93. That's a fact.

It doesn't cost anything, and it relieves pressure to the afflicted more than we know I think. Good advice for everyone, sick or healthy, to hear what is being said instead of just listening.

[Girard442]

17. I'm a big fan of suicide prevention.

Unfortunately, turning the country into a third-world shithole with a nearly nonexistent safety net and low-paying precarious jobs will not help the problem at all.

[bucolic_frolic]

21. To the victim it seems perfectly reasonable

and is the fastest way to escape the pain of what they feel

[cyclonefence]

23. Exactly

This is why it pisses me off to hear talking heads earnestly advising people who are about to commit suicide to "reach out" for help. Of *course* it would be better if they could reach out for help, but if you're ready to kill yourself, reaching out for help is like contemplating a trip to the moon. Most people don't understand how debilitating physically and intellectually--not just emotionally--suicidal depression is.

[Bradshaw3]

25. Thank you for helping people to understand

And you are right about blaming the victim. Someone suffering from this is no different than someone on a powerful drug. The brain is changed in those suffering from deep depression. The rest of us need to understand that and not blame.

[BigmanPigman]

22. How is doctor assisted suicide different from "do it yourself" suicide?

Why is one considered the humane thing for a pet or a very sick person to elevate physical pain and suffering and the other is considered something horrible even though it is often done to elevate mental or physical pain or both?

[cyclonefence]

24. I'm no expert

but I think part of the protocol for being allowed to commit suicide legally is to ascertain that the patient is not suffering purely from a deep depression. The thing about depression is that it will change; you will not feel this way forever. There is hope for recovery. If you are suffering from a terminal disease and are depressed because your physical pain is unbearable--pain that cannot reasonably be expected to change except for the worse, then I think you may be allowed assisted suicide.

But as I say, I'm no expert.

[fishwax]

26. doctor-assisted suicide is for those in deep and chronic pain with no hope of recovery

Physician-assisted suicide involves medical expertise concluding that this will not change, this condition is permanent and terminal, that there is no treatment that will correct the condition or restore a normal, bearable way of life.

People who engage in, as you say, "do it yourself" suicides rarely are acting with the benefit of such expertise. People suffering from depression are in deep and chronic pain, but there is often hope (though not necessarily conceivable to the individual if they haven't sought and/or received treatment) for recovery.

[True Dough]

53. Exactly!

Depression is a real thing. I don't think anyone here disputes that. But some people's depression is not a lifelong struggle. If a person is overcome by a serious bout of it for the first time, they may quickly think of suicide as a solution but that would be a mistake. It may very well pass.

I know of people who have endured it and then feel better for long stretches. Sometimes it comes and goes. Ending it all is a drastic reaction that hopefully can be avoided.

[BlueStater]

71. Depression is treatable.

It's possible for people with depression to return to living normal, happy lives. I'm certainly not saying it's an easy thing to overcome, but there is always hope that a person with clinical depression will get better.

Things like terminal cancer and Alzheimer's are not treatable. Once you get them, your quality of life is only going to deteriorate and there's nothing you can do about it. I certainly don't fault people for wanting to die on their own terms without the slow, agonizing pain involved.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

95. I'm all in

on being able to make the decisions in our lives, even the big one. The wealthiest nation in the world...for awhile more anyways...and we can't find a place for piece of mind for everyone. Vast wealth, and w that vast wealth comes (often) the biggest vacuum of humanity. All the rich folks could dig deep and pay us all forward, but, as of yet, they haven't had the Selfless Summit to think about options for all of us in America. We are a good people. We deserve better.

[ecstatic]

27. I'm not sure I agree. There's usually some time between the onset of

suicidal thoughts to when a person has finalized his/her suicide plan (assuming no allergic reaction to a medication). In the early stages, the depressed/suicidal person can be reached. The problem is, many people don't know that a suicidal thought is a symptom of severe depression and that treatment should be sought immediately before things escalate. It's extremely important that people are aware of the symptoms so they know what to do if they start having such thoughts.

Second, I'm sure there are several severely depressed (yet high functioning) people who know they should seek treatment but are procrastinating...in which case, the posts urging them to get treatment are potentially life saving.

[fishwax]

29. I understand where you're coming from, but I also think those hotlines save lives

And increasing awareness of those hotlines is not a bad thing at all, particularly when suicide is in the news. Speaking only from anecdotal evidence, I know that celebrity suicides can inspire some people who are at risk to sink deeper ("if there is no hope for that guy who seemed to have everything going for him, then what hope is there for me?&quot but can also inspire people who are at risk to have moments of clarity (I had an acquaintance who, at the passing of Robin Williams, came to the conclusion that if Williams, whom was a favorite comedian, couldn't handle this on his own then how could he expect to himself? And he sought help.)

I absolutely agree with you that, when people really reach the edge, a logical appeal or a simple suggestion of help may not do any good whatsoever. And I'm sorry that it seems to be victim blaming, and anyone who simply dismissively suggests that person x should have gotten help is not being helpful. But I think in most cases there are several steps and stages between the day-to-day existence of depression or other mental health issues and actually being at the edge, and for people in those spaces, heightened awareness of alternatives and resources available may help.

[Blaukraut]

31. My BIL hanged himself at his workplace 7 years ago

My husband has depression and is taking medication for it and is in therapy on and off. (His and his brother's childhoods were terrible. Both were emotionally and physically abused, and the brother, as the younger one, was also sexually abused by their mother's boyfriend.) For many years, hubby's brother would call him weak for being depressed and said he felt just fine after their childhood. All that changed when he married and became a dad. The older his little girl got, the more he started talking to my husband about his worries that he might do to his child what was done to him. Hubby begged him to get help, but to no avail.

The weekend before he ended his life, my sister-in-law caught him in the garage, sitting in his car, windows open, engine running. When she wanted to call for help, he laughed it off and said he was only joking. My SIL is the type who would rather keep up appearances, so she left him alone. He came over to our house that same afternoon (we didn't know of his suicide attempt at the time) and talked to hubby for an hour. Later, my husband would recall that the conversation was really weird. Almost like a good bye. But again, hindsight and all that.

The following Tuesday he went in to work an hour early and never came home. Hubby and I had to go get his car in the company parking lot. It was spotless. Almost sterile. (not like my BIL at all. He was a bit of a slob). On the passenger's seat were a photo of his daughter and his Red Sox baseball hat. We found out later that he had cleaned his desk and placed his wallet and keys on it. No note. Nothing.

So to make a long story short, he did not ever ask for help in any sense that would have been understood, other than his first attempt, which to this day makes all of us wonder if he WANTED to get caught and his wife has never stopped feeling guilty for not calling 911. My husband still feels guilty for not recognizing a final good bye when it was said. But my BIL made sure he was not going to be caught the second time, so who knows what was going through his head. And that is the point.

[cyclonefence]

36. Oh what a sad, sad story

I wonder if what people ought to be advised in these PSAs isn't "get help if you're feeling suicidal" but a reminder that you won't feel this way forever. Your brother-in-law needed profound help, and it sounds like it would have been difficult for him to talk about it even if he got to a therapist. I'm so sorry, especially for his wife (because she should have called 911 at that first attempt) and for your husband, who not only lost a brother but feels like a failure in trying to help him.

[Blaukraut]

41. A lot of times the signs are too subtle until it's too late to help n/t

[Demsrule86]

70. That is the point...I never guessed anything was wrong with my daughter and found out from

a friend on social media who happened to see a private post she accidentally made pubic.

[whathehell]

34. Blaming the public? You label those urging a suicidal person to seek

"assholes", but if that person isn't an intimate, who, like your husband, can "forcibly" take you to a doctor, what is the alternative?

[cyclonefence]

37. I'm not blaming the public

I'm blaming--if blaming is the right word--whoever thinks it's a good idea, a useful idea, to have talking heads tell people who are suicidally depressed that they should seek help. I call them assholes because it's an assholey thing to tell someone who is incapable of following that well-meaning advice.

I think before anyone in a position to be listened to by millions gives advice to people planning to kill themselves, they ought to be introduced to some of the posters here, who can tell them what it's really like. And the posters here are not anomalies; what they are saying about the inability to help yourself once you're that far gone, is well-known in the psychiatric and psychologic communities.

It's easy to say "get help," but it's meaningless. If you are depressed and capable of getting help, you don't need to be told. If you are so depressed that it is impossible for you to get help on your own, it's pissing into the wind.

IMO it would be more valuable if the talking heads shut up about what to do if you're suicidal and had as a guest someone who knows what the fuck she's talking about. The advice the talking heads give is advice the guy on the next barstool would give you. It's insulting and subtly blames the victim for not helping him/herself.

[whathehell]

43. You're clearly blaming someone..

and if your only alternative is to tell people to "shut up", um, well good luck with that, especially when the would be suicide in question is a celebrity.

[cyclonefence]

55. Have you read all the posts in this thread? Not just mine?

I'm clearly not able to explain what I mean to you. Other people have expressed it better than I. Reading this entire thread is an education for people who want to understand.

[hlthe2b]

35. I could not agree more. The stigma of suicide transcends and is devastatingly WRONG

Blaming the victim, or the family/friends is as inhumane, illogical, and irredeemable as it comes.

Helping people before they reach that stage seems to be beyond comprehension for our ugly punitive RW-driven society. How ANY of us could not be experiencing significant depression right now, given our country's state, escapes me.

We need to reach out to each other, be there for each other. Give benefit-of-the doubt to each other. Starting today.

[cyclonefence]

39. It's funny you said this about the current political climate

because I was thinking that if we democrats do not become suicidally depressed about Donald Trump, it's only because--like all depression--it will pass. He won't be in office forever. People who survive depression understand that their feelings will change if they wait long enough, and so must we.

[hlthe2b]

47. yes.. and thus the importance of imparting HOPE however we can.

[Texin]

45. I don't think people are "blaming" the victims, but grappling with acts that they don't understand

on a deeply fundamental level. People who haven't experienced clinical depression have no basis for understanding. Self-destruction is so antithetical to logical human thought that it is incomprehensible to almost everyone who isn't struggling and suffering with a psychological disorder or disease themselves. A family member or a close friend might be able to see the effects in another person, but they personally cannot feel the affliction.

[cyclonefence]

48. I'm willing to give the networks that display these idiotic suggestions

the benefit of the doubt. I have no doubt that they are well-meaning. But it is wrong to allow amateurs to speak--and at such lengths--to a life-and-death situation they clearly have no understanding of. It would be better if they limited their "advice" to a single statement giving the 800 number for a suicide prevention hotline, and expressing their sorrow at the suicide's passing. Instead, we get teary entreaties to get help before it's too late blah blah blah. And they go on and on and on, clearly believing they are being helpful.

And that's where I think it edges into blaming the victim territory. Well, if that's all they had to do to avoid killing themselves, why the hell didn't they do it?

That's blaming the victim. If you don't understand that, I sincerely hope you'll read all the posts in this thread. It is an education for those who want to understand.

[hibbing]

46. You have made me really rethink this

I've never considered your perspective, it is a complex issue and the responses here have been thoughtful. I'll leave my comments at that.


Peace

[vercetti2021]

49. Exactly

I'm right there with you on this. And it's never a cry for attention either like some stupid idiots say... it's a genuine problem in anybody who has depression, because mental illness fucks with your head, it screws up so much in your brain to think coherently when you're in that state of mind.

[deurbano]

50. Encouraging people to get help isn't "blaming" them. My daughter had symptoms that turned

out to be an indication of lymphoma (which would have been deadly pretty quickly if not treated), and of course we encouraged her to get help, even after more than one misdiagnosis.

Also, suicide situations vary. I attempted suicide when I was 16 after I tried to get help and couldn't. There was no internet back then, so I thought the panic attacks I was experiencing were a sign I was going insane. I was afraid to fall asleep at night because I was worried that as I drifted off to sleep I would relax the tight grip I was attempting to exert on my sanity and slip onto a catatonic state. I pleaded with my parents to let me see a psychologist, but they refused, with my mom telling me all psychologists were liberals and would just blame any problems on the parents. (Also, she was worried someone would find out I was seeing a psychologist and that would be personally embarrassing to her.) I even tried to check myself into a county psychiatric facility but they wouldn't take me since my parents wouldn't pay. My father was a school principal and a city councilman, so they were not uneducated, just unfeeling. (My dad is dead now, but my mom traveled 3000 miles to attend the inauguration of that thing in the White House.)

Even though it will not make a difference for everyone, encouraging suffering people to get help may save some... but especially if accompanied by critical information, like about symptoms and resources.

Edited to add: When people who commit suicide are called "selfish," that's more what I would call blaming the victim. It's an understandable (and probably healthy, at least for a while) response from loved ones left to deal with the loss, but a very callous response from those not personally affected.

[cyclonefence]

54. Your story is a lot like my own

I was depressed as a child--as I've said, it runs in the family--and as a young teenager I asked my parents to let me see a psychiatrist. They flatly and instantly refused because people in town would find out, and that would somehow reflect on them. My pain was terrible; even as a five-year-old I remember keeping all my clothes in paper grocery bags for when I would run away. I literally took all my clothes out of the drawers every day and put them in bags, every time my mother put away the laundry. This did not strike them as crazy.

But you kind of prove my point, too. Even as kids, you and I both knew help was available, and we did as much as we could to get help for ourselves. We didn't need someone on TV urging us to seek help. We didn't get help as kids not because we didn't know it was available but because we were powerless to get what we knew we needed.

And we didn't even need to be given information about resources. We knew who and what could help us. What we needed was someone to step in and educate our parents.

I hope you're OK today.

[whathehell]

72. I agree.. How is urging someone to seek help "blame"?

I don't get it.

I've had two bouts of clinical depression myself, and I knew I needed help...Is that the difference?..I don't know.

[cpamomfromtexas]

108. We have a lot of similarities in our backgrounds

Bless you friend!

[matt819]

56. Good points

Asking for help comes in different ways, I think.

Your ask came in the form of you crying in a way and in a time and place where your husband could intervene.

Others see it coming and call hotlines or family members or friends or therapists.

Sadly, others do nothing. And we can chalk that up to stigma, employment issues, staggering depression, and scores of other explanations large and small.

With Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain this week, there was no such intervention and no asking for help, and family and friends (and the wider public) are left wondering and pondering and commenting.

[Bayard]

57. Speaking from experience

Constructive comfort and understanding comes from someone you trust to put their arm around you, and take you to the doctor. Not someone on the phone or a public serve announcement telling you to go to the doctor. As others have said, if you are sunk in incapacitating misery, you're just not going to do it yourself. If you don't have an empathetic person to lean on for that, if you're lucky, you end up in the ER getting pumped with Narcan.

Most people don't know how to deal with someone in this shape. The most important thing is to listen, and be supportive. No criticism, no, "Snap out of it", or, "You'll feel better tomorrow,". Most people also don't realize that genetics plays a big role, and this is a disease like diabetes or cancer. It can be a chemical imbalance that will not just go away without the proper meds.

You don't get any sympathy if you survive a suicide attempt. I lost a lot of "friends", for which I had put on a good face. I lost a husband of 30 years while I was in intensive care that just couldn't deal with it. But if you succeed they will say--"Oh I knew something was wrong". Or, "She should have gotten help". Or they just take off with all your stuff.

[TheFrenchRazor]

85. word. nt

[backscatter712]

63. A lot of people with mental illness are rightfully afraid of the "help" that is available.

Call a suicide hotline and express suicidal thoughts? They'll call the cops. Maybe they'll send a SWAT team to kick down your door.

Talk to a therapist about suicidal thoughts? Bad idea, that therapist is a mandated reporter, and you'll be off to the psych ward and living One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest faster than you can say "Thorazine".

Family and friends don't know how to deal with this. Religious leaders often give horrible, shitty advice, like telling you it's your own fault because you didn't love The Deity enough.

In this country especially, there's nowhere to turn.

[cyclonefence]

64. It may be difficult to find the help you need

but it's there. In my case, it was our family doctor. He prescribed the anti-depressant medication I needed, referred me to a psychiatrist who agreed with the prescriptions, and I've been OK for the past 30 years on the same meds. If my husband hadn't been along with me, though, it might indeed have turned out differently. Without a responsible adult with me, my doctor might well have had me hospitalized, and who knows what might have happened then? Maybe good advice would include taking a friend or relative with you whenever you try to get help, especially if you're a woman.

[TheFrenchRazor]

84. yep; i would be afraid to tell anyone in "authority" if i was considering suicide. nt

[ismnotwasm]

65. My husbands ex-wife committed suicide

She shot herself. I was the one who had to tell her daughters, who were little girls at the time that their mother was dead.

Being around Suicide has enormous impact that is, in many ways impossible to “recover” from—rather it changes everything. My stepdaughters now have children of their own, with renewed pain because how could their mother leave them? I try to walk them through this.

Prior to her suicide, my husband reached out to her, made amends, tried to be a person to contact. We didn’t know she had made a serious attempt 3 months before and had been treated and released. She was a troubled woman.

What I’m trying to say, is she knew where help was, but in the moment of her deepest pain, saw no other options. I understand what you are saying.

However we must continue to try, to keep conversations open, to offer help, to try to enfold without smothering those who are hurting so bad that life itself isn’t enough.

In all honesty and all compassion,what do you think an appropriate and effective public response could be?

[cyclonefence]

66. My first impulse was to say I'm not sure a public response is called for, but

given the seriousness and ubiquity of what we're talking about, I think the talking heads should stifle themselves--apart from expressing grief--and have an expert talk about what friends and family members can do to help severely depressed people. We need to have a public conversation about suicide prevention--if this thread proves anything, it is that people want to talk about their experiences--with good information presented and questions answered. I think a segment devoted to this topic would be worth a million Alyson Camerata's tearfully telling depressed people to "get help."

Someone with professional credentials and experience dealing with suicides and would-be suicides, someone who understood the crippling effects of depression, might help save lives. The hand-wringing isn't helpful.

[ismnotwasm]

67. That's a good observation

Because it does seems a bit “thoughts and prayers” when everyone jumps in with suicide prevention numbers, forgotten in a week.

With the new suicide data out, I would hope we do have those conversations. All of us.

[The_jackalope]

73. I don't know if this is the place, but the topic is right.

My wife died last September. She was granted a medically assisted death because of her advanced ovarian cancer. Her death was serene and graceful. she died holding my hand and looking into my eyes, and her last words were "I love you". However, two weeks prior to that, in a stubborn attempt to retain personal control over her fate, she attempted suicide by self-strangulation, putting a tourniquet around her neck and twisting it tight (we couldn't get reliable helium.)

I had promised her that I would support her completely in everything she did, in life or death. So I sat quietly with her through the whole horrible ordeal, and didn't move to help her until she indicated it wasn't working. It was the longest, most searing five minutes of my life.

Nine months later the vision of her distorted face still haunts me, and the waves of depression roll in every couple of weeks. I'm on Wellbutrin and in therapy, but with no close family or friends that support is pretty thin. But the worst, most comforting thing is what I learned from her medically assisted death - that death is really no big deal, and it ends the suffering.

Still, I have my little black dog to care for, so I wait out the waves, and they always recede. So far.

[cyclonefence]

77. I remember your posts about your wife's death

and a beautiful death it seemed. Her unsuccessful attempt to do it on her own is heartbreaking, and you are very brave (and loving) to have sat and not interfered with her effort to be in control. I am sure you are still suffering, but your courage has helped me (and I'm sure other people here) to think about how we want to die, if we are in a position to make that decision.

I think the thing to hold on to is in your words "I wait out the waves, and they always recede." You added, "so far," but they always will, if not recede, change in some other, perhaps more bearable, way.

And I'm so glad you have your little black dog.

[The_jackalope]

80. Thank you

Today was one of those days.

[cyclonefence]

105. ...

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

81. Jack.

that's so mad man. I'm sure the fact that she wasn't alone made the whole difference. I'm sorry.

[TexasBushwhacker]

98. I don't know where you live

but most cities have support groups for grief and depression. I went to a grief support group that was affiliated with a local hospice after my mother died.

You might be able to find a depression support group here:

https://secure2.convio.net/dabsa/site/SPageServer/;jsessionid=00000000.app214a?NONCE_TOKEN=E51E15EE9221CE754B14B0D762EBA62A&pagename=home

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

76. If you were there,

you'd know. I think the alt would be to not encourage help. It's not said as..'.hey...get help'...and that's the sum total of someones responsibility. I always thought it showed compassion for your fellow man.
I'm glad you are ok. Sorry you felt/feel bad. Today is a new day sister.

[lunatica]

78. I've been there too.

It’s almost impossible to describe the black hole of despair that sucks you down to the point where death seems a way of stopping it.

At the bottom of that hole I did something I cannot, for the life of me, remember doing. I went to a mall and called my best friend to help me. She did. I don’t have even a tiny flicker of memory of doing it.

[Phentex]

79. I get it...

and someone very close to me said it didn't matter that she had kids, family, friends, money...when she was that low, nothing mattered. It was just pain and the feeling of wanting to end that pain. I wish newsheads and others would be more sensitive.

[TheFrenchRazor]

82. this is true, and people don't take them seriously half the time anyway. nt

[YOHABLO]

102. Depression is serious. So when someone says they're 'depressed' take it very seriously.

[Maraya1969]

103. People who committe suicide are not in their right minds. There thought processes

are distorted just as if they were in a psychosis. It is a brain disease.

[ck4829]

104. K&R

[lapislzi]

111. I think you're missing an important distinction

Between "help is available" (to the still-living, but morbidly depressed, and their often clueless loved ones) and "he should have sought help" after the person has died by his own hand. The latter is victim-blaming, and insulting. The former is a statement of the glaringly obvious, and I can well understand how it would irritate a survivor of depression. But, if that stupidly obvious statement could help just one person, then it's not a total waste of time. I don't think it's causing overt harm. I hope not. People say it because they want to do good in the world, not insult depressed people.

I think we all agree that, with a few notable exceptions for the terminally ill, suicide is a tragedy. Maybe "help is available" could be a wake-up call to family and friends to be on the lookout. I don't know. I'm not a professional. I understand that seeking and obtaining help is difficult-to-impossible in these times. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. it doesn't mean that we who are not depressed, shouldn't hold space for those who are, whenever and wherever we can. It does mean we should be aware and observant. And we the survivors are not to blame for this silent killer that often leaves no clues until it does its terrible work. But we have a duty to try to stop it when we have the opportunity.

I can also well understand the angry reactions loved ones left behind may feel after a suicide, and the galloping feelings of guilt. I have experienced this in my own family. We had the good fortune to survive it. We all have far to go with this. Maybe 99% of the time we can't prevent. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.