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Mon Feb 12, 2018, 08:59 PM

Lack of Support Among Union Members for Democrats

I spent about six years of my life as a Union worker in the South. A big problem that Hillary Clinton had, especially in my neck of the woods, is that a number of the union workers that would normally support a Democratic candidate supported Trump. I saw that happen among my co-workers and colleges. Many of them are now cold to Trump, but are still not receptive to the Democratic opposition. My real question is "why"?

There's something that many of them want that is not just a 15 dollar minimum wage. I know that's popular in Southern Unions, because most of them make between 12 to 16 dollars an hour, but in areas like Michigan and Wisconsin where union workers are making more then 15 dollars an hour, it is not receptive.

How do we bring these workers back into the fold?

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Arrow 188 replies Author Time Post
Reply Lack of Support Among Union Members for Democrats (Original post)
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 OP
Iliyah Feb 2018 #1
Sophia4 Feb 2018 #159
Demsrule86 Feb 2018 #166
Squinch Feb 2018 #2
elleng Feb 2018 #6
Squinch Feb 2018 #8
quartz007 Feb 2018 #69
Squinch Feb 2018 #77
alarimer Feb 2018 #170
StevieM Feb 2018 #180
standingtall Feb 2018 #87
Squinch Feb 2018 #97
tonyt53 Feb 2018 #100
Squinch Feb 2018 #106
standingtall Feb 2018 #124
Squinch Feb 2018 #125
standingtall Feb 2018 #131
MichMan Feb 2018 #144
LanternWaste Feb 2018 #172
MichMan Feb 2018 #178
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #153
UnTied Feb 2018 #158
MichMary Feb 2018 #168
Squinch Feb 2018 #175
Atticus Feb 2018 #16
Squinch Feb 2018 #20
Phoenix61 Feb 2018 #110
EffieBlack Feb 2018 #117
Bradshaw3 Feb 2018 #27
JI7 Feb 2018 #28
Bradshaw3 Feb 2018 #49
JI7 Feb 2018 #51
Bradshaw3 Feb 2018 #62
JI7 Feb 2018 #67
LanternWaste Feb 2018 #174
Squinch Feb 2018 #65
JI7 Feb 2018 #76
Squinch Feb 2018 #79
JI7 Feb 2018 #86
Bradshaw3 Feb 2018 #80
Squinch Feb 2018 #95
OhioBlue Feb 2018 #143
MichMan Feb 2018 #152
OhioBlue Feb 2018 #156
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #157
StevieM Feb 2018 #181
OhioBlue Feb 2018 #187
StevieM Feb 2018 #188
elleng Feb 2018 #30
Bradshaw3 Feb 2018 #42
elleng Feb 2018 #47
Squinch Feb 2018 #61
Bradshaw3 Feb 2018 #70
Squinch Feb 2018 #74
Bradshaw3 Feb 2018 #84
tonedevil Feb 2018 #91
JI7 Feb 2018 #94
Squinch Feb 2018 #96
EffieBlack Feb 2018 #119
WillowTree Feb 2018 #186
EffieBlack Feb 2018 #116
Sophia4 Feb 2018 #160
elleng Feb 2018 #171
JustABozoOnThisBus Feb 2018 #163
elleng Feb 2018 #173
WillowTree Feb 2018 #185
MichMan Feb 2018 #15
Squinch Feb 2018 #22
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #26
Squinch Feb 2018 #34
MichMan Feb 2018 #151
Squinch Feb 2018 #176
MichMan Feb 2018 #179
Squinch Feb 2018 #184
tonyt53 Feb 2018 #102
MichMan Feb 2018 #149
blueinredohio Feb 2018 #46
INdemo Feb 2018 #109
Squinch Feb 2018 #114
bluestarone Feb 2018 #129
MichMan Feb 2018 #150
bluestarone Feb 2018 #169
Demsrule86 Feb 2018 #167
BigmanPigman Feb 2018 #3
elleng Feb 2018 #7
MichMan Feb 2018 #147
brush Feb 2018 #4
bettyellen Feb 2018 #5
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #10
bettyellen Feb 2018 #24
beachbum bob Feb 2018 #9
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #13
Squinch Feb 2018 #14
Freddie Feb 2018 #11
CountAllVotes Feb 2018 #90
spicysista Feb 2018 #12
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #18
JI7 Feb 2018 #32
EffieBlack Feb 2018 #122
JI7 Feb 2018 #141
JI7 Feb 2018 #33
spicysista Feb 2018 #59
tonedevil Feb 2018 #85
leftstreet Feb 2018 #142
Calista241 Feb 2018 #17
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #21
Squinch Feb 2018 #31
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #36
Squinch Feb 2018 #58
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #63
Squinch Feb 2018 #68
EffieBlack Feb 2018 #128
dawg Feb 2018 #136
EffieBlack Feb 2018 #137
JI7 Feb 2018 #35
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #38
sprinkleeninow Feb 2018 #154
StevieM Feb 2018 #182
Calista241 Feb 2018 #165
Squinch Feb 2018 #23
JI7 Feb 2018 #29
shanny Feb 2018 #19
JI7 Feb 2018 #39
shanny Feb 2018 #57
JI7 Feb 2018 #64
shanny Feb 2018 #83
JI7 Feb 2018 #88
JI7 Feb 2018 #25
Bradshaw3 Feb 2018 #37
JI7 Feb 2018 #43
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #45
JI7 Feb 2018 #48
Bradshaw3 Feb 2018 #56
JI7 Feb 2018 #60
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #99
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #44
JI7 Feb 2018 #50
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #52
JI7 Feb 2018 #55
Squinch Feb 2018 #98
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #104
JI7 Feb 2018 #107
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #113
Squinch Feb 2018 #127
JI7 Feb 2018 #155
Tatiana Feb 2018 #40
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #41
GreenEyedLefty Feb 2018 #53
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #54
X_Digger Feb 2018 #66
JI7 Feb 2018 #71
mcar Feb 2018 #72
JI7 Feb 2018 #78
mcar Feb 2018 #81
JI7 Feb 2018 #92
mcar Feb 2018 #93
a kennedy Feb 2018 #73
RandySF Feb 2018 #75
Hoyt Feb 2018 #82
GulfCoast66 Feb 2018 #134
Hoyt Feb 2018 #161
jalan48 Feb 2018 #89
doc03 Feb 2018 #101
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #123
doc03 Feb 2018 #130
Skittles Feb 2018 #103
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #105
Squinch Feb 2018 #108
Skittles Feb 2018 #126
JI7 Feb 2018 #111
StevieM Feb 2018 #183
EffieBlack Feb 2018 #112
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #115
SharonClark Feb 2018 #118
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #121
Nevernose Feb 2018 #120
FarCenter Feb 2018 #132
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #138
LuvLoogie Feb 2018 #133
BlueDog22 Feb 2018 #139
GulfCoast66 Feb 2018 #135
moondust Feb 2018 #145
GulfCoast66 Feb 2018 #146
tenderfoot Feb 2018 #140
Bradical79 Feb 2018 #148
Squinch Feb 2018 #177
samir.g Feb 2018 #162
Demsrule86 Feb 2018 #164

Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:03 PM

1. I think they are sorry now but it's toooooooooooooo

late.

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Response to Iliyah (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 04:05 AM

159. The question is: "How do we bring these workers back into the fold?"

Any ideas?

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Response to Sophia4 (Reply #159)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 09:23 AM

166. You make the candidates fit the area...Sherrod Brown is very liberal (love him) but he also speaks

to the working man. Sherrod Brown should run for president with Joe Kennedy III as vice President if we get a Democratic governor this year in Ohio. In eight years Joe runs with a woman VP maybe from a rustbelt state...this gives the country eight years to lose some of the sexism that helped defeat Hillary.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:04 PM

2. I'm a union member. Your co-workers, and ANY Republican-voting union members, have to

be the stupidest people on the face of the planet.

I do not know how you would turn around such imbeciles, but soon the question will be moot. That Supreme Court case is going to go against unions, and your union colleagues will all find themselves in "right to work" plants where they are making $7 an hour.

And they are stupid enough to help that happen.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:12 PM

6. NOT useful to refer to those one wants to persuade of something as

STUPID.

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Response to elleng (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:16 PM

8. Maybe not useful, but true and as I say, the question is now moot. They'll know soon

enough how valuable their union was after it disappears as a result of their vote.

But thanks for the chastisement. That's helpful too.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:07 PM

69. Unions can NOT be abolished with

an Executive order by the POTUS. Because right to organize a union is an existing law, and only a bill passed in congress and signed by the POTUS can take that right away. Very unlikely!

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Response to quartz007 (Reply #69)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:13 PM

77. I'm talking about the SC decision that is expected to take away the unions' rights to require

union membership as a condition of employment.

That will make RTW national and will destroy the vast majority of unions. And yes, it's highly likely.

The last time the issue came before the court, we squeaked by because Alito had just died. Now we have Gorsuch. We will lose.

It has nothing to do with an executive order.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #77)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 11:00 AM

170. That has to do with PUBLIC sector unions and the fee pay system.

Right now, all public sector employees, if they are not actually members of the unions, must pay a fee (typically less than union dues) to pay for the union's negotiating on their behalf. Now, they are not actually members in that there are some member benefits they do not get (like voting for officers), but they get many others. The argument being used is that the fee payers disagree with the unions politically and so, should have to support those activities. The work-around was to have them pay for only negotiating activities. But for the whiners that is not good enough and so they sued. They want to be free of all payments, yet still somehow benefit from the union. Closed shops are forbidden by law.

In practice this would do what you said, essentially eliminate public-sector unions. But I don't think it would apply to unions in general, unless there is another case out there that I am unaware of.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #77)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:09 AM

180. I think you meant to say Scalia had just died. You accidentally said Alito. (eom)

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Response to quartz007 (Reply #69)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:22 PM

87. Congress cannot abolish unions with a bill either

there is something called freedom to assemble in the first amendment to prevent congress from abolishing unions through legislation.

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Response to standingtall (Reply #87)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:41 PM

97. The supreme court has a case before it as we speak that will abolish the right of unions

to require union membership as a condition of employment.

In the vast majority of places where this has happened (Right to Work) unions have disappeared.

The last time this issue came before the court, Alito had just died and the unions won.

Now Gorsuch has replaced Alito. The likelihood is that unions will lose.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #97)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:51 PM

100. I think most on here have no idea what right-to-work even entails.

Right-to-work IS the same as killing unions from the inside out. I think some people think that an employer pays them what they do because they value them. Not even remotely. They do it because unions fought the fight and have elevated wages through collective bargaining. I've said many time that the day after the last union shuts its doors, is the day that wages are cut across the country. It isn't the worker most employers value. It is the money.

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Response to tonyt53 (Reply #100)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:02 PM

106. And if we give up all our power then, SURPRISE! all our power is gone.

I think of all the results of the Trump(R) administration, this is the one that will ultimately kill Democracy if the expected decision comes down and we don't find a way to override it.

It's as destructive to our system as Citizen's United was.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #97)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:18 PM

124. right to work laws are horrible

but they do not abolish unions by them itself although they do make it harder to organize.

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Response to standingtall (Reply #124)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:20 PM

125. In the vast majority of places where they have been enacted, unions have disappeared.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #125)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:27 PM

131. Unions have not totally disappeared in right disappeared

Unions still exist in Tenn and Tennessee has been a right to work state for a long time. Not saying right to work laws do not do damage because they certainly do, but there not the end of unions. Before the NLRB there was no such thing as right to organize state. Every state could be an at will employer state, but unions organized and changed that. Unions can organize and change things back using the political process if the supreme court decides to make right to work national.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #125)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:41 AM

144. Not true at all

RTW was passed 5 years ago in Michigan. There is not one union that has gone away

Unions in RTW states need to demonstrate why there are benefits to remaining a member since they can no longer count on people being forced to join in order to work at a union shop

The real travesty on top of RTW are laws that prohibit people who opt out from bargaining for themselves. This ensures that the union still has to bargain for them even if they aren't paying dues.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #144)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 11:37 AM

172. Have the aggregate state membership rolls increased or decreased?

"There is not one union that has gone away..."
Have the aggregate state membership rolls increased or decreased? (Now is the time to look up that relevant information, yes? Gosh... the surprise of what you'll discover is almost underwhelming)

Absolute denial of a thing is not required if chipping the foundations weakens the structure as a whole (e.g. a woman's right to choose being steadily eroded bit by bit).

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #172)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:01 AM

178. Increased ( I did look it up)

Are you surprised ?; probably not what you expected.

"Last month, the Bureau of Labor Statistics released new data that show labor unions in Michigan added 52,000 new members in 2017. This was the biggest annual jump in union membership in Michigan in over a decade, and even more importantly, it means there are now more dues-paying union members in Michigan than there were in 2012 — the year Gov. Rick Snyder signed right-to-work legislation into law."


http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2018/02/13/union-membership-growing/110388206/

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Response to standingtall (Reply #124)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 01:18 AM

153. I Agree

I was in a right to work state union for 6 years. Talk about having no teeth to go after the employer...

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Response to standingtall (Reply #124)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 02:35 AM

158. Time to get back to the basics...

...like a GENERAL STRIKE. We are slowly awakening from a deathly slumber in which we allowed the distractions like daily struggles, 2nd jobs, kids and whatever, to get us to take our eyes off the ball. We allowed them to divide us on "smaller issues" if you may. Issues like gay marriage and such are indeed important, but corporations and lobbyists see them as wedge issues, because they are emotional and get folks to the polls. But the only issues that the Powers-That-Be care about are those that affect their bottoms lines. And that is where we need to attack them. Either a General Strike, or essentially a month where we only spend on what we NEED and buy nothing considered a WANT - internet especially.
We let the lobbyists get ahead of us. We need to regain the upper hand. A few well-timed General Strikes may just get the point across, especially now that unemployment numbers are showing that workers are needed.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #97)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 09:36 AM

168. Alito is alive and well

and only in his 60s. He's going to be around for awhile.

You are thinking of Scalia.

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Response to MichMary (Reply #168)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:20 PM

175. Yes, sorry. Scalito was always interchangeable

in their opinions, but yes I meant Scalia.

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Response to elleng (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:27 PM

16. Also not useful to give them unwarranted respect. nt

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Response to Atticus (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:30 PM

20. That's it. I'm really tired of tip-toeing around the fact that is as plain as the nose on our faces.

They're stupid.

We're never going to get them and they're stupid. We need to stop coddling them in their stupidity.

That whole hand wringing era of "we just don't understand the Trump voter" needs to be over.

Yeah, we understand them. They're either racists, sexists, or just unbelievably dumb.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:06 PM

110. I hate to agree with you but you are

spot on. I'm in Florida and unions are all but gone. I've watched local politicians do everything they can to ensure jobs that might possibly bring the union here are not allowed in. Now they are bitching because all the young people are leaving. Guess working minimum wage tourist jobs ain't all it used to be. And yeah, Twitler carried the area and way too many people here are dumber than a box of rocks.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:11 PM

117. THANK you!

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Response to elleng (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:44 PM

27. True and not just in presidential elections

As we saw in Va. control of the legislature came down to one vote. What if one voter went against a Democrat because one of us called them stupid. It may be true and it may feel good to call them stupid but I want to elect as many Dems as possible and doing so is counterproductive.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:45 PM

28. Those types are never going to support democrats

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Response to JI7 (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:56 PM

49. These kind of generalizations are wrong

and will cost Dems more elections. There are millions who voted for Obama - twice - then voted for drumpf. Whe I campaigned for Obama in 2008 in western Indian I talked to many people who voted for Bush twice and were open to Obama, who barely won the state. Every vote matters and to write off millions of voters because you want to lump them all together is not just wrong but will only serve to elect more repubs.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #49)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:58 PM

51. If they vote for someone as fucked up as trump they are voted their bigotry

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Response to JI7 (Reply #51)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:04 PM

62. dump being fucked up and most of his supporters being fucked up

doesn't mean everyone of his voters is fucked up. Generalizations are not good for anyone. It may make you feel better to write such things but that attitude is why Dems lost voters. I care about winning elections. Others care more about venting, which doesn't change anything in the long run.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #62)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:06 PM

67. If they aren't fucked up they would stop supporting him

Just based on his actions alone

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #62)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 11:39 AM

174. That was a generalization

" most of his supporters being fucked up..."

That was a generalization, which as you allege, "are not good for anyone."

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #49)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:06 PM

65. This is a myth, though a very widely spread one. The number of voters who voted for Obama

and then voted for Trump(R) is actually miniscule.

There were people who voted for Obama who stayed home, and people who never voted before who came out to vote for Trump(R).

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Response to Squinch (Reply #65)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:11 PM

76. And voter suppression .

The number that voted Obama and trump is probably about same that voted mccain/ Romney and then Hillary.

Trump brought out the bigots which mccain and Romney did not appeal to.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #76)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:15 PM

79. And gerrymandering and the FBI and Russia. NOT the mythical poor white guy who's all worried

about economics.

And yes. They say there were a lot of first time middle aged voters who came out for Trump(R).

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Response to Squinch (Reply #79)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:20 PM

86. Yup, and for those who DID vote on the economy, they went mostly for Hillary

White voters who said the economy was their top concern voted Clinton.

It does no good to ignore these facts.

I'm all for reaching out to people but I'm not going to pretend the real reason for those that voted trump and continue to give him high approvals.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #65)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:16 PM

80. Totally false statement

You provided no links to back it up, so here's an article with the number:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/upshot/the-obama-trump-voters-are-real-heres-what-they-think.html

It's 9.2 percent. That is NOT miniscule. It is certainly not a myth no matter how much you want to believe so. And unfortunately there are many on here who do not understand how important 9 percent of voters are in elections.

I understand that people on here hate drumpf voters and for good reason for most of them, but , again, it is counterproductive and making false statements to back up those feelings doesn't make the discusson any more productive.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #80)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:37 PM

95. It's nowhere near 9%. Nate is misquoting his underlying study. From the link in your article to

the source study, here's what the source study says:

Between 2011 and 2017, 13 percent of those identifying as Democrats and Republicans switched their partisan affiliation. Of those, 8 percent began to identify as independents and 5 percent switched between the two major parties. The overall switching rate does not vary much by the respondents’ original party — roughly equal numbers of Democrats (14 percent) and Republicans (13 percent) changed their affiliation during this time period

https://www.voterstudygroup.org/publications/2017-voter-survey/party-hoppers

This means that 5% of the total in that study switched between parties. Or about 2.5% of Democrats went Republican and vice versa.

The other 8% of the changers went to Independent. So you can't say they went from Obama to Trump.

Nate himself goes on to say:
the shift from Mr. Obama’s 51.9 percent of the two-party popular vote to Mrs. Clinton’s 51.1 percent was the smallest change in major party vote share since 1888.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #65)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:33 AM

143. I disagree. Knocking doors in Ohio for Hillary was way different than knocking for Obama

My GOTV packets should have been reliable dems - GOTV Obama - almost everyone had already voted or was voting Obama... GOTV packets Hillary - lots of animosity and a much, much lower percentage of those that had already voted for her or were going to vote for her. Some Trump support, but a lot more apathy, not sure they wanted to vote. I know Union members or former Union members that had Obama signs in their yard in '08 and '12 but had Trump signs in '16.

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Response to OhioBlue (Reply #143)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 01:16 AM

152. Yet way too many here want to blame it all on bigotry....

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Response to MichMan (Reply #152)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 01:33 AM

156. Michigan is a lot like Ohio - I knew Trump was full of shit

but I also knew NAFTA was gonna play a big part in the election. Unions in Ohio have been railing against NAFTA and trade deals for a couple of decades. It has been in their union literature and discussed in Union halls. Racism and dog whistles were part of the Trump agenda and I won't disagree that some Union members are either racist or succumb to latent racism... but NAFTA was and is an issue in Ohio, Michigan, PA, etc.

I know a guy who was a local Union President and Dem precinct chair - campaigned for Kerry, Strickland, Brown and Obama but totally flipped to the dark side and became a total Trumper. This was after his plant closed.

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Response to OhioBlue (Reply #156)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 02:00 AM

157. Agreed

Thank You.

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Response to OhioBlue (Reply #143)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:15 AM

181. But a lot of that was because Comey and the FBI torpedoed her reputation going back to 2015.

Before that she was damaged by GOP lies about Benghazi. She did a good job of beating that back but then the fake email scandal took its place.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #181)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:11 PM

187. Some of GOTV was hurt because of Comey, I would agree to that.. but she was already

down in Ohio polls before that. I don't think she would have won Ohio even without Comey. NAFTA made a difference.

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Response to OhioBlue (Reply #187)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:39 PM

188. But she might have been up in Ohio had it not been for the earlier Comey press conference in July.

The polls there were tight until a couple of weeks before the election. They may have moved towards Trump in the few days before the final Comey intervention, but they could always have moved back.

To be fair, blowing Donald Trump out of the water isn't exactly the biggest accomplishment in the world. But without Comey I think she would have done it, Putin's alliance with Trump not withstanding.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:46 PM

30. Thanks, Bradshaw3.

Foolish of me to expect understanding here?

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Response to elleng (Reply #30)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:53 PM

42. I hope more understand. That's how we win elections

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:56 PM

47. Exactly

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:04 PM

61. What if three more people of color and/or women came out to vote because we called out

the bigots and sexists who voted for Trump(R) on their bigotry and sexism?

THAT is our base. How about we appeal to them?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #61)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:07 PM

70. No reason you can't appeal to both groups

Obama did. It doesn't have to be pitting one group against another. It is also very shortsighted if you want to win elections in states other than just blue ones. But it makes people feel better to vent. I want to win elections across the country, not just in blue states and an occasional presidential year.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:10 PM

74. There is every reason why you can't appeal to both groups. One group IS women and

people of color, and the other group despises women and people of color.

This has nothing to do with venting. If you really want to win elections, you have to stop believing myths like Trump(R) voter voting because of economic reasons and the "millions" who voted for Obama and Trump(R). All the data analysis agrees that those people don't actually exist.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #74)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:18 PM

84. See my response below - your belief is wrong

Nine percent of voters fall in that group. I provided a link not just a vblanket statement. And to paint milions of people as all racist is as bad as what they are doing.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #84)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:29 PM

91. Voting for donald...

is voting for an open and unapologetic racist. If you don't find that to be a deal breaker you are indistinguishable from a racist.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #84)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:36 PM

94. There are a lot of bigots in the country. Will trumps white male support go down after defending

Men who beat women ?

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #84)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:37 PM

96. See my response. No it's not.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:15 PM

119. You CANNOT appeal to minorities by coddling bigots

And crawling over them to try to appease don't vote Democratic because they think we're pay to much attention to minority concerns is NOT going to generate support among black and brown folk.

You know we can see you when you do this, right?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #119)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 01:07 PM

186. There's a huge difference between.......

.......coddling bigots and not resorting to juvenile name calling toward people who may have voted Republican in the last cycle for reasons that have little or nothing to do with race or even Trump himself. And those people are out there, whether you choose to accept that fact or not. Convince yourself otherwise if you choose, but there are people who didn't vote for Hillary who could be lured back into the fold but won't be if Democrats continue to refer to them as "stupid" or "deplorable" or "racist". You may be willing to throw those votes away, but a lot of people feel otherwise.

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Response to elleng (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:10 PM

116. They ARE stupid

And kissing their asses and telling them it smells like cotton candy hasn't done us any good, has it?

They want to be Republicans. Let them be Republicans. We can win without them if we stop spending all of our time chasing after them and, instead, focus on expanding the base of people who have been loyal, totally not flaky and will vote Democratic if we just help them get to the polls and make their votes count.

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Response to elleng (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 04:06 AM

160. Thanks. You are so right.

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Response to Sophia4 (Reply #160)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 11:36 AM

171. Thanks, Sophia4.

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Response to elleng (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 08:34 AM

163. Agree. "DEPLORABLE" didn't help much, either.

Trump seems to get away with using insults. But it's generally not a great campaign tactic.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #163)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 11:38 AM

173. Right.

Reminding me of elementary school; gets no friends.

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Response to elleng (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:43 AM

185. I've been trying to make that point with people for the longest time.

It's not only not as useful, but most of the time completely counter-productive. The old "catch more flies with honey than vinegar" thing........and too many people just do.......not.......get it.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:26 PM

15. The issue is that RTW hasn't affected them at all

Michigan passed RTW 5 years ago and there were many statements by opponents that wages would be cut as a result. The state is highly dependent on the auto industry and sales have been strong for several years.

While there has undoubtedly been some erosion in membership, it hasn't been widespread and as far as I know, there have been no pay cuts occurring to union members. I don't think that argument holds any traction anymore to the rank & file.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:32 PM

22. That is one industry, and that's unusual. Look at every other RTW state and every other

RTW industry.

I have some connections with people in the south who work construction. Like skilled carpenters. They might as well be slinging Big Macs for all the money and security their skill brings them.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:41 PM

26. I Agree

For once I agree with you.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:51 PM

34. The evidence is out there for all to see. The reason for the loss of wages and security for

those skilled workers is no secret.

Those who willingly invite those forces to come in and ruin their own jobs are not concerned about their jobs. They have a different agenda and its one we will never convince them to change.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 01:15 AM

151. You seem to think all unions and industries are similar

The Big 3 have been hiring UAW skilled trades for the last several years as many are retiring. There is a shortage in SE Michigan.

People aren't seeing their wages cut & their jobs eliminated.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #151)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:23 PM

176. You seem to think that is representative. It isn't.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #176)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:05 AM

179. Except union membership actually went up in Michigan

" Last month, the Bureau of Labor Statistics released new data that show labor unions in Michigan added 52,000 new members in 2017. This was the biggest annual jump in union membership in Michigan in over a decade, and even more importantly, it means there are now more dues-paying union members in Michigan than there were in 2012 — the year Gov. Rick Snyder signed right-to-work legislation into law."

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2018/02/13/union-membership-growing/110388206/

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Response to MichMan (Reply #179)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 09:30 AM

184. Again, you seem to think that is representative. It isn't.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:54 PM

102. You are wrong. And yes, it does matter to them.

As new non-union plants are built, watch it become harder and harder to negotiate a contract. Do you belong to a labor union? You sure appear to be defending right-to-work.

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Response to tonyt53 (Reply #102)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 01:04 AM

149. Sigh, I'm not defending RTW

Ever since it was passed here in Michigan, we were told that the wages of CURRENT union members would be slashed. It never happened.

There are a lot of legitimate issues to attack RTW, but it is hard to gin up support against it if the arguments being made for years end up not being true. Why do we think people will still believe it 5 years later?

The UAW rank & file is pretty upset at the leadership in Michigan right now due to the latest scandal. It is on the front page nearly every week. That issue alone may result in more people opting out than anything else. That has done a lot more damage to the UAW at the Big 3 than anything due to RTW.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:55 PM

46. Agreed 1000 percent!!!

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Response to Squinch (Reply #2)


Response to INdemo (Reply #109)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:09 PM

114. The reason I resent them so much is that I am a union member, and they are taking

away MY livelihood at the same time as they are throwing away their own with both hands.

I will have to pay for their stupidity.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:25 PM

129. AGREE People want FREE union benefits. don't want to pay dues. courts are breaking unions all over!

Employers know how to do this shit.Non-union workers ALWAYS suck up to company UNIONS are the backbone of this country! Companies hate union people because these people are SMART and trained to know what rights workers really have!! Union people have ALWAYS been smart voters and MOSTLY DEMOCRATS!!! This has ALWAYS been my observation!!

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #129)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 01:11 AM

150. They need to abolish exclusive representation laws asap

Then if people don't want to pay dues, they get zero benefits and can bargain for themselves.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #150)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 10:51 AM

169. absolutely

get rid of the free rides!!!!

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Response to Squinch (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 09:25 AM

167. They did help that happen.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:06 PM

3. The big union reps have been having many union rallies

by the San Diego unions. Often they are guest speakers at anti-moron rallies like The Women's March, The Tax March, DACA March, etc.as well as their own rallies. Unions are down everywhere due to fucking Reagun and most will not be coming back. One reason I chose teaching when I changed careers was due to their union. My dad was in AT&T and my sister and I would strike and walk with him on our Summer vacations. I think a lot of "union" mentality comes from your upbringing.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:14 PM

7. Yes, I suspect due to fucking Reagun is a big part of the problem,

which is very big (and bad.)

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Response to elleng (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:56 AM

147. Reagan has been out of office nearly 30 years

We need to quit blaming all the ills of the country on Reagan. Clinton and Obama each had 8 years to undo anything he did.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:09 PM

4. Mostly white males who, frankly and sadly, mostly vote repug (white male progressives are with us).

Almost have to write them off as they side with the white peoples' party—the repugs.

We get more fruitful results among unregistered, independents, and white women who are finally seeing trump's blatant misogyny.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:10 PM

5. Are they mostly men? Are they more sympathetic to corporate owners than their neighbors? Hoping for

trickle down economics to start working?
You didn’t give us much insight, and I’d love some.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:17 PM

10. Union Wokers

Mostly white men and women.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:38 PM

24. So, mostly white and mostly men? Im going to guess they like Trump in immigration and taxes?

Becasue they don’t want others competing or to pay a cent to help others?

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:16 PM

9. they come back to the fold when their $15/hr job disappears and they are making $8/hr, until the

pain is felt, they let the other issues dominate their voting choices. The pain is coming.

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Response to beachbum bob (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:21 PM

13. Too Late

Like some forms of cancer, once the pain starts, it's just too late.

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Response to beachbum bob (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:24 PM

14. My estimate is within a year of this SC decision. What's yours?

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:19 PM

11. The visceral hate for a smart successful woman

Override everything else. That’s why they plan to use Nancy Pelosi as the symbolic evil Dem now that they can’t use HRC. And we kill babies and plan on taking your guns away ASAP!
Some people can’t be reached.

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Response to Freddie (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:28 PM

90. +1,000 !!

n/t

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:21 PM

12. Well, that depends.....

What caused them to leave the democratic party in the first place? That may tell you more about these voters than asking them what they want. What drew them to dolt45? What in his message to them motivated them to look past his glaring imperfections?
Also, when was the last time these folks voted for a democratic candidate? Before Reagan?
Without those blanks filled in, I have no idea where to start. I'm all for expanding the tent to include these voters. But, until they are ready to explain why they chose Mango Mussolini over strength and capability, I am at a loss.

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Response to spicysista (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:28 PM

18. Kerry

Thank you for interacting with me on a practical basis without invoking ideology.

A lot of them voted for Clinton and/Or Kerry. Some of them were even Obama voters.

What they want to hear is that the jobs will come back, but you can't promise that. Trump did, but couldn't deliver. Those manufacturing jobs in textiles, those coal jobs, those jobs are gone and there's nothing we can really do about it.

How do you break through to those voters, lie? Offer them education opportunities?

The problem with a lot of people on both sides of the spectrum is they can't see passed their own ideology, and walk into the shoes of others. A lot of people in this country are worried that their jobs are going to get packed up in cargo containers, and be shipped overseas. Then what are they going to do? How are they going to feed their families? These people don't want hand outs. They don't want to beg. Their proud, they want to work. They want earn. This is their primary issue, to have the ability to survive from their own labor.

How do you get through to these people? These are the people we want in the party.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:49 PM

32. Get more hispanic voters, target educated white women with careers

These groups that actually ARE more likely to vote democratic.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #32)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:16 PM

122. Black voters

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #122)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:27 AM

141. yup, the base of the party and the ones targeted for voter suppression by republicans

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:50 PM

33. Bill Clinton, Kerry and Obama all lost the white male vote

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:02 PM

59. Since these people have voted democratic in the past.....

This means that there's hope. If they have liked and supported our party principles in the past, then maybe they saw tRump as a nonpartisan? Maybe they saw him as something different and thought....why not? This, we can work with.
I don't believe that we should lie or promise the moon, but we must be inspirational. We should be bold in our democratic principles. We should have a local message that speaks directly to those particular voters but in a way that doesn't alienate others in our tent.
Since you know these people, you are our best asset in winning them back. Continue to talk with them and gauge their opinions on cheeto. Let us know how they're responding to his agenda. If their reasoning for supporting the short fingered vulgarian were really about economic anxieties, his lack of progress may give us room to make inroads with them. My fear is that they voted for him for other reasons.
Keep up the fight!

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:19 PM

85. The problem as I see it...

is what we think of as jobs are never coming back. It is fashionable to think that the culprit is jobs being sent to other countries, but jobs are being automated even more so. In many ways we are already so efficient there isn't enough labor to employ the people available.
Capitalism puts a premium on ownership of means of production. That makes automation benefit only those owners and acts to the detriment of those without means. Saddly, the poem about people being taken and the author not doing anything about it seems very applicable here.

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Response to tonedevil (Reply #85)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:27 AM

142. +1

Time to share the wealth

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:27 PM

17. The people in this thread criticizing the OP's premise must like being in the minority.

We're not going to get rid of Trump and Paul Ryan if you people don't stop insulting everyone that hasn't always thought like you do.

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:31 PM

21. It Doesn't Bother Me

Those people, that way of thinking, is why we lost in 2016. They can't see that, but most of us do.

"Trump is a bad guy" is not a campaign message. People care about their jobs. They care that they can feed their families and have a roof over their heads. At one point in time that was a Democratic issue, and if we want to win in 2018 and 2020, that is going to have to be an issue again.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:47 PM

31. No. That's not why we lost in 16. We lost because of gerrymandering, voter suppression,

Russian interference, and the FBI stacking the deck for Trump(R) and against Hillary.

We're not going to win by ignoring that fact and trying to make ourselves attractive to people whose racism and sexism blinds them even to their own self interest.

No, they don't care about their jobs, or about feeding their families or putting a roof over their heads. If they cared about their jobs and their families, they would not vote in a way that all but ensures they will lose those jobs.

All the data analysis of those who voted for Trump(R) has come to the same conclusion: economic concerns were NOT an issue for Trump(R) voters. They were NOT concerned about their jobs.

This is a canard.

And to characterize the Democratic message as "Trump is a bad guy" is to spread a republican talking point. What do Democrats stand for? I'm really sick of hearing that asked, so I'll give you a few REALLY OBVIOUS things: Democrats stand for fiscal responsibility. They show that by fixing the economy every time the republicans blow it up. They stand for women and people of color. They show that by sponsoring and pushing legislation for equal pay, equal housing and equal treatment under the law. They stand for dreamers and they show that by inventing the status and fighting to keep it alive. They stand for the middle class. They show that by SUPPORTING unions and their right to exist. They show it by not stealing from the middle class to give tax breaks to billionaires. They stand for the poor and the elderly. They show that by providing and fighting for social security and medicare and medicaid. I could go on.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:51 PM

36. Plan of Action

I disagree with the first part, but that last paragraph is beautiful.

Then how do we take that message and turn it into a plan of action? That is the key. That is the goal.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:02 PM

58. That message IS the plan of action. That IS what we do.

I am the first and usually the loudest voice saying that Democrats suck at messaging, and we need to find a messaging genius and set him or her loose on the world.

HOWEVER, if we were to find such a person, the people we would need to target would absolutely not be your union friends who "just want to feed their families," and they go about that by voting in a way that ensures they will not be able to feed their families.

Again, all of the data analysis of the Trump(R) voter says that economics were absolutely NOT the reason for their vote. Trump(R) voters voted for Trump(R) because they are bigots or sexists. Pure and simple. They may not be overt, but that's why they did it.

We will NEVER appeal to them. What they want is what we have right now, and that is what we are against. Our messaging has to bypass those morons entirely and go for the women, people of color and elderly whose votes have been suppressed or who did not come out to vote in this election. In Alabama, the secret to turning the absolutely red state blue in the special election was a historic Get Out the Vote campaign among people of color, women and the elderly.

So that is the plan of action.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #58)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:04 PM

63. I Know Trump Voters

I know people that voted for Trump, did not stick with him, but are wary of the Democrats. That was what the OP was about. Those that are no longer with Trump, but are wary of us. All of you guys are attacking me for asking, how do we get back the people that are now politically homeless.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #63)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:07 PM

68. I haven't attacked you at all. I have called union voters who vote for Trump(R) by their

correct descriptor. That has nothing to do with attacking you.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:24 PM

128. Do you have ANY idea how insulting it is for loyal black voters, who have voted Democratic election

after election after election, despite standing in the longest lines, enduring the most difficult obstacles - and never whined about "having to hold our noses" to vote for someone who we didn't agree with 100% (or even 50%) because we just don't play that - have to see and hear Democrats focus so much effort, not on making it easier for us to get to the polls and have our votes count and get more people in our communities out to vote, but on running around after white voters who don't give a shit about us and are perfectly happy to vote for and continue to support an unapologetic racist for President of the United States?

You all act like, just because you're ignoring us, that we can't see and hear you lavish attention and electoral resources on racists and their apologists while meting out crumbs to us.

Democrats are NOT going to win by begging bigots to vote for them. Because, as minorities well know, the primary reason those people don't vote Democratic is not economics, but US. And the only way to get them back into the fold is to convince them that WE don't matter as much as they do.

Screw that. Leave them where they are and focus on the people who have been loyal as hell, even when the party didn't deserve it, and who have proven time and again that if given the chance, we will carry the Democrat over the finish line.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #128)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:06 AM

136. You're right.

We need to focus on empowering and expanding our base - the people who have supported and sustained our party though thick and thin.

Of course, blue-collar white men are always welcome in the Democratic Party. But we should never be willing to change who we are, and what we stand for, just to accommodate them.

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Response to dawg (Reply #136)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:08 AM

137. EXACTLY!!!

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:51 PM

35. Russian interference and Comey is why we lost. And we still got millions more votes

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Response to JI7 (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:52 PM

38. Comey

Comey blew it.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 01:24 AM

154. Comey pulled a great injustice. eom

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #38)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:21 AM

182. Agreed. Comey did much more damage than Putin IMO. (eom)

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Response to JI7 (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 09:21 AM

165. Millions of extra votes in California, New York and Mass dont mean shit.

We need votes in the Atlanta suburbs. We need votes in upstate New York. We need suburban votes in Michigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.

If we want to win the House and Senate. Otherwise we can talk about our popular vote victories, and watch the Repubs win everything that actually matters.

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:38 PM

23. Democrats have never been in the minority.

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:46 PM

29. Democrats got millions more votes.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:29 PM

19. Stop selling them out.

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Response to shanny (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:52 PM

39. They supported trump so they sold themselves out. And they voted for Reagan also

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Response to JI7 (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:01 PM

57. My point exactly.

The Democratic Party threw unions under the bus long ago.

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Response to shanny (Reply #57)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:05 PM

64. If they have a shit about unions they would not supported Reagan and trump

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Response to JI7 (Reply #64)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:18 PM

83. Circular. Fail.

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Response to shanny (Reply #83)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:22 PM

88. It's like people worried about child sexual abuse voting for Roy Moore

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:40 PM

25. They left the fold after civil rights so you bring them back by not supporting civil rights anymore

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Response to JI7 (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:52 PM

37. Factually untrue

59 percent of union households voted for our first black president in 2008, compared to 51 percent for non-union households. Implying that union members stopped voting Democratic because they are racists is as wrong and counterproductive as calling them all stupid.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #37)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:53 PM

43. The OP is talking about white men.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:55 PM

45. Nope

Not all white men are racist. I certainly am not.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:56 PM

48. White men that voted trump. That's what the OP is talking about

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Response to JI7 (Reply #48)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:01 PM

56. I know that's who he is talking about

And that's who I'm talking about. They are not all racist and they are not all lost causes. Convincing 5-10 percent of them to change their minds could win back statehouses and maybe the senate. It's about winning elections.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #56)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:04 PM

60. Democrats did well because of strong turnout of POC, and other base of the party. Beggibg bigoted m

Who had no problem with trumps bigotry is just white men thinking they are more important.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #56)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:49 PM

99. Thank You

Thank you for at least listening to me.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #37)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:54 PM

44. Agreed

Some of those union households voted for Trump because of his lies. Now we have to sell them truths and act on them.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #44)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:57 PM

50. They voted for trump because they agreed with his bigotry, that's why they still approve of the job

He is doing.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #50)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:58 PM

52. Blinded

You are blinded by your own ideology. That is sad.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #52)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:00 PM

55. I'm a brown person who has no interest in coddling bigoted white men

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Response to JI7 (Reply #55)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:45 PM

98. Alabama showed us how to do it: huge GOTV among women and people of color, and we can't lose.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #98)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:55 PM

104. Not Entirely

A lot of Republican voters stayed home rather then vote for Moore. That Alabama election was a one trick pony.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #104)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:04 PM

107. We won virginia also. With the same voters as in Alabama.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #107)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:08 PM

113. Low Turn Out Election

Yes, but that is a different state. Virginia has been trending more Democratic in recent years. Alabama is still very much a Republican stronghold.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #113)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:23 PM

127. LOL! So I guess we have to assume that GOTV among women and people of color just

won't work, because the success of that strategy in Virginia and Alabama - Alabama! - were just flukes.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #113)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 01:30 AM

155. Alabama shows we shouldn't beg White Men for Votes considering such a large majority voted for a

child molestor like Roy moore.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:52 PM

40. Their decision has to come back and bite them on the economic a$$.

Watch the economy tank. Watch their retirement accounts get raided and stolen. Watch overtime rules and regulations be rolled back.

When their pocketbook isn't enriched the way they thought it would be, then they'll turn around. Sad to say. All these people care about are themselves.

Also, I work with a lot of union members who voted for Trump and I really think they did so because they are racist.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)


Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:58 PM

53. I belonged to a school secretaries' union.

And later took a non-union position. I worked in the same office as the union president. I watched as she and her rep tried to negotiate with the district, who was looking to fire all of the secretaries and hire lower paid replacements.

I suggested the best way for the secretaries to keep their jobs is to train them to be the best, most highly skilled workforce in the district... like the IBEW and other strong, highly skilled unions.

I don't think these are stupid people or Trump voters... but I do think that unions are only as good as their leadership.

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Response to GreenEyedLefty (Reply #53)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 09:59 PM

54. True

That is a very true statement. I was with a union that had very poor leadership.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:06 PM

66. Why? Our party abandoned many unions in the early 90's.

I remember when Rick Boucher came to Buchanan County in the 90's, making promises that more tidewater shipyard tax breaks would somehow, magically help the miners who were struggling under oppressive coal company operators.

He was touting "economic redevelopment" that ended up being nothing more than tax breaks for a business park, that only generated local jobs for 20-30 people in the form of janitorial services. Even the construction contract was given to an out of state company.

Assholes like that are why union members turned away.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:07 PM

71. I think its really fucked up that people voted for scum like trump and roy moore

And those who voted for them are seen as the victim.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:08 PM

72. Why would any union member support Republicans?

That makes no sense. What do the Trumpsters offer them?

The door is open, they can walk right in.

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Response to mcar (Reply #72)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:15 PM

78. Because they aren't voting based on their union and jobs

They are voting on something else and it does no good to ignore what that is.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #78)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:16 PM

81. I agree

I'd rather us focus on our good, solid, liberal message. It's right there for anyone who wants to hear it. I'm done with the racist, sexist, selfish crowd.

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Response to mcar (Reply #81)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:32 PM

92. Yup, we have an administration defending men that beat up women

And yet someone always comes along trying to convince us those who support them are good people and we are the problem.

"You force me to support women beating, racist scum".



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Response to JI7 (Reply #92)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:34 PM

93. Yeah, we need to reach out and understand them



FCK that!

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:09 PM

73. Im thinking union members will long for the days when they got overtime pay when

working more then 40 hours a week, or when they got holidays off, or when they got sick days, or when they got some sort of family leave time, or when they got a discount on their health insurance. What do they have now??? and they’re getting going to be getting less when the Supreme Court decides on some labor issues this year.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:10 PM

75. And black voters were not going to show up for Doug Jones and Ralph Northam

But they did.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:17 PM

82. In South, you are talking about bigots and xenophobes. Nothing worse than Archie Bunker

with a Southern drawl, confederate flag on the wall, and a load of guns.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #82)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:47 PM

134. Unlike the model of progressive governance and pro union government we see in Wisconsin?

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #134)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 07:34 AM

161. You do have a point.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:26 PM

89. The AFL CIO supported Nixon in 72 because of the anti-Vietnam War stance of many Democrats.

Solidarity can evaporate quickly, which I think many of today's movements will find out in the coming years.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:52 PM

101. OK I have read all the replies on this thread.

#1 Union members are not all white men. I worked in the steel industry, we had people of all races and genders working there.
#2 Union workers are not stupid.
#3 And I think the biggest reason by far is the Republicans effectively hung NAFTA around the Democrat's neck.
Unions represented manufacturing and mining in this area. We saw manufacturing destroyed by cheap imports and I don't want a
environmental argument but the EPA had big effect on the loss those jobs. The area where I live was about 2/3 Democrat.
A few years ago you couldn't get elected to a county office unless you ran as a Democrat. Today every county office but one is held by a Republican. This has all taken place as Union jobs in manufacturing and mining has died. You talk to many blue collar workers and
they blame Democrats for it. A guy at the gym asked me the other day if I was one of Hillary's deplorables. I said no I didn't vote for Trump and he asked me where I worked. I said I worked in the steel mill and he said Hillary said you were deplorable. Now that is not what she said or meant. She said about half Trump's voters were deplorable because they were racists not that they blue collar workers. But here again the Republicans through Fox News has convinced them otherwise.


People have been brainwashed by Fox News. Fox News is a cancer on our democracy.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #101)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:17 PM

123. NAFTA

NAFTA was a big sticking point in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. Running against NAFTA did peel away some union folks there.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Reply #123)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:25 PM

130. We have an asshole in this Congressional District named Bill Johnson. He came about

from the tea party hammering NAFTA, War on Coal and Obamacare. Same thing on the WV side they have a congressman named McKinley that replaced a Democrat by hammering NAFTA, Obamacare and War on Coal. It doesn't matter if the Republicans in congress voted for NAFTA Bill Clinton has been made the culprit. These people watch nothing but Fox News. Obama care is another Republican idea we adopted in order to compromise with Republicans. We got zero votes from the Republicans and gave them something to blame us for. Maybe we should have tried to get an actual Democratic health care plan.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:55 PM

103. anti-Hillary propaganda worked on more than just repuke assholes

 

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Response to Skittles (Reply #103)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 10:57 PM

105. Very True

Some of the people that voted for Trump didn't vote for Trump, they voted against Hillary. A lot of people that voted for Hillary weren't voting for Hillary, they were voting against Trump. That happens in every election.

Give people a candidate they can vote for, and they are more motivated. We saw that with Obama.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #103)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:05 PM

108. And there's at least one poster in this very thread who was one of the people spreading it.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #108)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:23 PM

126. oh there are quite a few DUers who bought a lot of garbage about Hillary

 

ALL of them should have known better

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Response to Skittles (Reply #103)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:07 PM

111. It's not just propaganda it's white men angry at losing privilege

This goes back to Hillary hate when her husband ran for president.

They had to tear down a woman who was too uppity and would not stay in her place.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #111)

Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:28 AM

183. That's a good point. It explains why a phony scandal about an email server could be taken so far.

People believed this garbage because because she was a woman.

Of course, having an out-of-control FBI didn't help matters. That explains why even Donald Trump could beat her.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:08 PM

112. We should make an effort but should definitely not bust our asses trying to win them back

If they haven't figured out by now that the Democrats are better for them, I say screw them and leave them to the Republicans. We don't need them to win. Instead, we should spend our time, energy and resources inspiring and expanding our base - and giving them what they need to get to the polls.

I'm sick and tired of chasing after white voters who vote Republican, not for economic reasons, but because they believe the Republicans are more likely to help them regain/maintain their perceived superior status in this society.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #112)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:09 PM

115. I Agree

Economics aside, I cannot stand social conservatives. They are like locusts.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:14 PM

118. I'm from a union family.

It is heartbreaking to hear union members say they vote repug because of guns and gays. Most belong to the union only because they work in a union shop. They have no sense of or pride in union history. That said, I'm glad union leadership understands what is at stake.

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Response to SharonClark (Reply #118)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:15 PM

121. Agreed

I've seen it too. It makes me sad.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:15 PM

120. Culture Wars

Democrats keep running on facts that make union members’ lives better — and everybody else’s. Giving tax cuts to billionaires is dumb, science is good, bigotry is bad. I guess technically those are all opinionated conclusions, but they’re based on facts.

Too many union members, though, voted the way they did because kneeling for the flag is wrong, blue lives matter, and unisex bathrooms are part of the gay agenda to make all the children gay commies.

Republicans can’t win on any issue that actually matters, so they have to fight a War on Christmas and prevent Obama’s UN from stealing our precious, precious assault rifles.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:35 PM

132. At only 10.7% of workers, are unions much of a factor anymore?

 

The union membership rate--the percent of wage and salary workers who were
members of unions--was unchanged at 10.7 percent in 2017, the U.S. Bureau of
Labor Statistics reported today.

...


Highlights from the 2017 data:

--The union membership rate of public-sector workers (34.4 percent)
continued to be more than five times higher than that of private-
sector workers (6.5 percent). (See table 3.)

--Workers in protective service occupations and in education, training,
and library occupations had the highest unionization rates (34.7
percent and 33.5 percent, respectively). (See table 3.)

--Men continued to have a higher union membership rate (11.4 percent)
than women (10.0 percent). (See table 1.)

--Black workers remained more likely to be union members than White,
Asian, or Hispanic workers. (See table 1.)

--Nonunion workers had median weekly earnings that were 80 percent of
earnings for workers who were union members ($829 versus $1,041). (The
comparisons of earnings in this release are on a broad level and do not
control for many factors that can be important in explaining earnings
differences.) (See table 2.)

--Among states, New York continued to have the highest union membership
rate (23.8 percent), while South Carolina continued to have the lowest
(2.6 percent). (See table 5.)

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #132)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:15 AM

138. 10 Percent

And ten percent of the population is also gay, and they are a factor. I support them too, and rightfully so.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:37 PM

133. The one thing that binds all trump voters is their hate for Hillary.

There are his die hard who openly support or enable him. And there are the ones who know better either then or now, who know they made a mistake. But they will never say I should have voted for Hillary. They just shut up, not saying anything, not admitting their mistake, not denouncing trump and his behavior, not admitting that their votes did damage to the country and hurt real people. The quiet ones have good jobs, go to happy hour and Cancun. It's those fuckers. The same ones that said shit while the blatant racist fucked over someone. For a fucking tax cut.

They go on about their lives Never admitting to themselves the hypocrisy of hating Hillary while remaining silent about trump. Fuck them. Fuck their bigotry. Fuck anybody that voted for that bigot grifter vandal. I did my fucking homework on trump. Jesus you didn't even have to do any homework. He showed his vile ass every day of his campaign.

I understand them.

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Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #133)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:17 AM

139. Social Conservatives are the Worst

Title says it all.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:58 PM

135. Southern white guy here. Worked my entire career in a Union company

Even though Florida is a right to work state.

First 10 years I was labor, last 20 management.

Even our Stewards generally vote republican.

It is racism pure and simple. They make good money and correctly feel threatened but are not sure why. So they listen to Fox and Rush and now believe the threat is people who do not look like them. These guys never voted for Obama.

In realy the threat is that their employer will decide to break the union.

In the plus side more and more of our work force are people if color and they are rapidly changing things. They are more likely to actually join the union so they get to vote on their officers.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #135)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:47 AM

145. "racism pure and simple."

I think that also explains "Reagan Democrats."

Southern strategy worked.

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Response to moondust (Reply #145)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:51 AM

146. Yep. And to hell with trying to understand them...

Some of us actually work with them and understand them fully. These guys were not Obama voters.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 12:22 AM

140. Stop listening to AM talk radio and watching Fox News

that should be a good starting point.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 01:04 AM

148. Convince them to not be bigots

Last edited Tue Feb 13, 2018, 01:38 AM - Edit history (1)

Try to convince them that hordes of Mexicans aren't coming to steal their jobs. Other than that, there's not much you can do about it. What they want is for us to focus less on minority problems.

Edit: Also want to add that this idea that it was a lack of economic message that cost us the election is bullshit. We won working class voters, and still win union voters by a big margin. Poor white people actually voted in favor of Clinton slightly. The better off a white person was, the more likely they were to vote for Trump. Racism and xenophobia took over. White Trump union workers are a pretty tiny demographic (one that doesn't face oppresion), that it's not worth any kind of extra focus or big changes on a national level. If locals want to give it a shot without aleinating better people that actually need our help, sure.

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #148)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 06:13 PM

177. Thank you for stating some facts in the face of all the old, tired, disproven myths that

two or three posters are throwing around in this thread.

I have to wonder why.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 07:56 AM

162. A bunch of white men betrayed their union, their party, their country

Now we need to cater to them?

No.

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Response to BlueDog22 (Original post)

Tue Feb 13, 2018, 09:20 AM

164. If they vote for Trump again who has done nothing for any of of them...than it is about racism...and

there is no way to bring them back into the fold. Here in Ohio, those union who voted for Trump bitterly regret it now so I expect a backlash against the GOP.

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