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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOccupy's tactics are hurting their message and the left
Last edited Mon Dec 12, 2011, 10:51 PM - Edit history (1)
Whether you agree or not with the way Occupy gets its message across, it's pretty indisputable that these tactics have made them less popular with the American people and distracted from the message they are trying to get across.
The great thing about Occupy is that they are not astroturf like the Tea Party. They are not part of the Democratic Party, a party which, on the whole, is moderately conservative. The Occupy movement is actually progressive, actually liberal. There is no political party that represents their interests.
This is a great opportunity to actually present a progressive message to Americans. But the tactics being used are blowing this opportunity.
Specifically, occupying public parks or blocking the ports are two tactics that are not endearing the movement to the American public.
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-favor-fading.html
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The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)aren't exactly a good example of a successful or lasting political movement.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)not to mention this computer I'm typing on and the awareness I have of eating natural, organic foods and trying to live out an authentic and meaningful life and remaining connected to the natural world.
Oh and the music. Wow.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)to members of a political movement in the past unfortunately doesn't say anything about how there is no political party in this country that represents liberal viewpoints.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)when the dead center won't.
unionworks
(3,574 posts)...Abbie hoffman and friends, the Black Power movement and SDS. And yes , these groups changed the political landscape of the 60's - 70's in a big way.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)of the end.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)The Kennedy assassination was the beginning of the end.
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)And a lot of other stuff.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)hootinholler
(26,449 posts)But, the beginning of the end was the assassination. A beginning doesn't mean that nothing good happened after it.
I firmly believe that LBJ was in on it, but was smart enough to trade Vietnam for The Great Society. Hell even Nixon signed the clean air act.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)had enough votes to overide a veto.
That rotten shmuck didn't give a fuck about the environment and it makes me puke when silly people post as if he did.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)"We are all Keynesian now," said Nixon. Had that only held true....
And way back when he was Vice President he foreshadowed Detente and the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union. As President he finally initiated those actions. The Cold War would have ended far sooner had we rejected Churchill's Iron Curtain policy.
His one huge flaw on the economy was price-fixing. He held that job in the FDR administration during WW-II when it made sense. Price fixing during his presidency created an "inverted bubble" - why, yes, I did just invent that term because I think it describes what happened pretty well - that ultimately made inflation even worse once the restrictions were eliminated.
TheKentuckian
(25,035 posts)It wouldn't be the first time. It says this passes but only over my deepest objections.
If he really didn't want it he is given a way to say so that stands for all time, you just have to deal with the present day politics which doesn't mean much if you have been a roadblock the whole way and everyone knows this in real time.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)Yeah, that would have been a brilliant political move by Nixon to veto it.
Wake up.
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)A veto override vote is a kick in the teeth to a presidency, and a gross undermining of both clout and credibility. NOBODY in their right mind, not even Nixon, issues a veto that they KNOW will be overridden for anything other than a matter of life and death.
TheKentuckian
(25,035 posts)
ret5hd
(20,563 posts)nineteen50
(1,187 posts)Richard (EPA) Nixon
Old and In the Way
(37,540 posts)Richard Nixon, a progressive? Really? I'd label him a lot of things, but progressive isn't one that comes to the forefront of my mind.
onlyadream
(2,168 posts)Being peaceful?
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)and occupying public parks. While we may be all for civil disobedience, if certain types are turning people against your movement or becoming the focal point of the movement rather than the message, a tactical change might be in order.
onlyadream
(2,168 posts)
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Some people object to OWS. Some people love it. I love it and so do all my friends.
Just because some guy on TV or some overweight middle-class know-it-alls don't get it . . . .
When people complain about OWS's tactics, ask them what tactics OWS should be using.
We voted for Obama. Look where it got us. Same place we were before.
I support OWS. Closing down the ports at least got some attention.
The ports symbolize the greed of the rich. They are pushing imported junk on us, have bought solid American businesses like Maytag (I still use my pre-1985 Maytag washerl) and hired slaves overseas to make cheap versions of them and then bring them to our ports and into our stores.
We end up jobless, impoverished and in serious debt to the rich.
And then the rich through their corporations inundate us with propaganda such as the stuff being spewed here about how OWS tactics are unpopular.
We raise our voices here on DU, but we are not heard by those who make the decisions. OWS's goal is to be heard, to be noticed. They are achieving that. They are causing people to think.
That is a vast improvement over the nonsense forced upon people by CNN and Fox News and the other networks.
A little annoyance can do a lot of good. Ask any child under 6 months.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)
Beavker
(823 posts)They ship Rye Grass to Europe and are pissed because it didn't happen. Fine. I get that.
But basically she just echoed the talking points that these were just hippies that needed to get a job and a bath like the rest of us.
That's it. That's her understanding of whole movement as Fox News says it is.
Be damned the multiple other cities, Occupy this and that, foreign countries (likely the same Damn ports in Europe could be shut down once her Rye Grass gets there). But they're all dirty Europeans I suppose.
I don't know all the motives of every movement, and this girl's narrow description of the Occupy movement is sad. But I do see that we can get all the people in the world talking about it, but we need people to understand why they are doing it.
She just knows, right or wrong, that a bunch of dirty hippies have kept her seed from being exported. I'm not sure that her exporting of seed needed to be shut down.
I'm learing that I can't even go on Facebook. Either we on this blog are a minority in this morinic teabagging spiteful world, or I just know 20 rightwing teabaggers (whether they profess to be or not) for every single person that sees things my way.
I think this country will fail. Slowly enough we don't notice (the frog in the boiling pot). I don't see common sense and decency making it's way to the majority in this country.
nineteen50
(1,187 posts)the protesters at Boston Harbor. A bunch of weapon carrying masked property destroyers that trashed the harbor and didn't clean it up.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Good point! And they named their beloved born again Right Wing whack jobs after this.
tledford
(917 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)What is Congress's? 9%? YOu dont explain how they are turning people off or show any proof. You are mimicking the talking points of my right wing brother-in-law.
If you are actually for civil disobedience, pray tell us what you suggest.
MedicalAdmin
(4,143 posts)Maybe cupcake baking?
WTF?
BoWanZi
(558 posts)Apparently OWS is less popular than even the tea party these days.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/occupy-wall-street-now-less-popular-than-tea-party-movement/
http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2011/11/16/remember_how_ows_was_more_popular_than_the_tea_party_well_.html
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-favor-fading.html
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Occupy Oakland's plan to shut down the city's bustling port on Monday for the second time in as many months is facing a complicating wrinkle nowhere in sight last time - opposition from several unions and some within the Occupy movement itself.
The attempted shutdown will be part of a coordinated blockade of 11 West Coast ports from San Diego to Anchorage, Alaska, an effort conceived by Occupy Oakland to build on the success of the Nov. 2 general strike it led that closed the city's port for more than six hours.
But unlike last time, when the area's major unions gave tacit or outright approval, many of them see Monday's action as disruptive and unnecessary.
And some occupation activists are labeling it as too confrontational, with the protest's potential for violence detracting from Occupy's stated intention of narrowing the chasm between rich and poor.
More: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/12/11/MN2G1MAO6E.DTL&type=printable
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)as is, this morning I got a taste (anecdotal) from actual truck drivers. And it is not what you posted. It was more the, "I got not enough to hold an opinion but if they are here, there has to be a reason for it." From labor history I could translate that for you, and it's not the words, but the subtext.
MSM has an agenda. If you want to see another time with the same situation I recommend you read the Labor Papers and the Chicago Tribune around the Haymarket affair. You will find that there are two different stories... and at times that radically 180 from each other.
The San Fran Gate is playing the role of the paper of record, like the Chicago Trib did back then.
Perhaps after the dust settles you might be able to figure this out, or before that hopefully.
I see definite echoes, parallels if you will, to other ages of worker struggle. By the way, the Union cannot OPENLY tell you they support this... there is this pesky NO STRIKE clause in most union contracts these days. I am willing to bet that you probably do not know that.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Why would you assume otherwise?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)we are going to strike, a firable offense. You know that. So try to learn to read between the lines.
I sugest a good book on the Haymarket, The same thing is going on RIGHT NOW
pintobean
(18,101 posts)I'll tell you what; you go put yourself between a construction worker and his/her pay check in this economy. After the dust settles, you can tell us how that worked out for you.
I suggest you stick your head outside the bubble and get a whiff of reality. You're living and breathing nothing but OWS. Not very many Americans view this the way that you do.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)is the one that helps elites stay in power, export jobs, and keep busting unions.
As to workers... unlike you, today I heard workers actually get it, you know like in the real world, like in the field, as in covering this. But then again, I am not just typing at home while being warm and cozy.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)You're really putting it out there in San Diego with your notebook and your cheap camera. Really getting the pulse of the movement and all that. That's the problem. I'm talking about the perception of the vast majority of Americans. Try getting their pulse. It's pretty easy - check the polls.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Last week, this week, next week?
Social movements have this thing called an arc. (Why I keep recommending you read a few books on social movements, it is a good thing to do... but I am sure you will NOT. Especially if they are recommended by me... so I give up on doing that any longer)
And I do not mean occupiers, I know their message by now, I mean port workers. I mean truck drivers.
And that cheap camera is getting pretty damn good pictures too, but I also understand the equipment matters, but so does the person behind the lens.
By the way one of our local expensive gear reporters had one of his two rigs today fail due to water infiltration. Guess what he brought up after that? Oh yes one like mine.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)would not have been good for civil rights.
But then the silent majority is always ahead of the curve. So what do I know?
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)You check a few polls and know better what's going on than the person actually out in the field doing something?
pintobean
(18,101 posts)She's dealing with a few dozen participants, who are gung-ho about OWS. Talking to them has nothing to do with how everybody else feels about it. I don't understand why you would think my opinion is uncalled for. Is it me, or do you believe different views shouldn't be allowed here?
As to the pols; they've never been all that great and OWS approval has been trending down for a while. All the polls have shown this. Ignoring facts won't change them.
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)but snark and rude.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)And I tend to reply in kind. I really don't care if that meets your approval, or not.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/harveywasserman.com/bcnews.go.com/en.wikipedia.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2214218&mesg_id=2214218
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)being snarky. I don't care if you care what I approve of or not. 
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Did you read post #13? As I said, I tend to reply in kind.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And I still recommend people take a camera...they are essential...
Or you think we all should stay home.
By the way snark aside, I am covering occuy for a LOCAL INDIE MARKET, as in press. You know that means taking NOTES AND PHOTOS and giving voice to both the public affairs officer for SSA maritime, who used occupy language, I'll let you figure out WHY that was... The occupiers you obviously despise and truckers and long shoremen .
I am not behind a keyboard just spouting.
As to target and kit...yes you can find cameras starting at 45 bucks. They are ok. Yes I experimented with them.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)I respect them. That doesn't mean I have to agree with everything they do.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)You seem to only see what you want to see, whether it's there or not.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Than the system is posting dude...no really, I am dead serious.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)Consider the accompanying videos, taken with those same "cheap cameras".
His comment was neither snark nor rude.
It was revealing.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Do tell.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)This is the cheap camera
http://www.olympus-global.com/en/news/2011a/nr110208tg610e.html
Which after local journos saw my work with, caused a small run on, as backups.
In good light it takes very good photos. At night it gets a tad tricky...but it does not suffer from water infiltrations. One went for the more expensive one. He dives, it's rated up to twenty feet depth. Optics are pretty much the same.
So watch your cheap camera crap bud.
Oh and at the range we all were 300 zooms would be nice, but not necessary.
aquart
(69,014 posts)MOST of us are frightened mice. History isn't made by us. Change doesn't come from us. It comes from the ones willing to risk nerve damage from handcuffs and fractured skulls from gas cannisters.
Rejoice that we can scurry into our holes and let our eventual assemblymen and congressmen and senators earn their illustrious futures on the front lines.
They will be able to tell their children and grandchildren where they were and what they did. The rest of us will lie.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)to the domination of our politicians and our society by the greedy?
It's the greed that threatens your income and your way of life, not the demonstrators.
What tactic would you take to protest against the corporate domination in our society?
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)or really know about our labor history. I experienced this type of thinking from fellow employees during the 2003 Grocery Strike. In our small town we had the largest number of employees crossing the line and going back to work in the second month of our strike. They were worse than the temps. hired to replace us. Their name calling and threats of violence against those of us who remained on the picket line was a daily thing. We had one guy who would come within inches of hitting us with his car. These very same people were the first to complain on how lousy our new contract was yet they were the first to give up. The type of actions that #OWS are using may not be popular but they are not new and will take time to see the effects.
on a side note: We may not have gotten what we wanted in our contract after that strike. But we did get a better contracts in the future because of that strike. Our four month strike hurt Safeway, Ralphs and Albersons bottom line and they were unwilling to risk another strike.
It will take time for us to see the effects of the #OWS movement.
Response to pintobean (Reply #3)
Post removed
pintobean
(18,101 posts)in the San Francisco Chronicle. They're not conservative and neither am I.
Thank you for your concern.
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)these truckers are grateful for their help.
AN OPEN LETTER FROM AMERICA’S PORT TRUCK DRIVERS ON OCCUPY THE PORTS:
We are the front-line workers who haul container rigs full of imported and exported goods to and from the docks and warehouses every day.
We have been elected by committees of our co-workers at the Ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach, Oakland, Seattle, Tacoma, New York and New Jersey to tell our collective story. We have accepted the honor to speak up for our brothers and sisters about our working conditions despite the risk of retaliation we face. One of us is a mother, the rest of us fathers. Between the five of us we have 11children and one more baby on the way. We have a combined 46 years of experience driving cargo from our shores for America’s stores.
We are inspired that a non-violent democratic movement that insists on basic economic fairness is capturing the hearts and minds of so many working people. Thank you “99 Percenters” for hearing our call for justice. We are humbled and overwhelmed by recent attention. Normally we are invisible.
http://cleanandsafeports.org/blog/2011/12/12/an-open-letter-from-america%E2%80%99s-port-truck-drivers-on-occupy-the-ports/
HeyHeymymy
(5 posts)Any ideas?
think
(11,641 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)I have no idea. Launching a progressive political movement in a place like the US and trying to change the hearts and minds of a conservative nation is no easy task. The deck is stacked against us. A corporate media, a conservative/compliant American public, a government controlled by corporate money, with no real political representation for progressives, etc. etc. I definitely would stop using tactics that raise the ire of Americans and try something else. I think the idea of occupying foreclosed homes, for example, is far better in many ways. The problem for Occupy is that they want media exposure, and the way to get it is usually to do things like blocking ports. A huge part of the problem is that corporations for the most part control how Occupy is portrayed.
Obviously, the American public is angry. They even agree with Occupy's message. They are mildly awake, compared to other times in recent history.
Any political movement that lasts will take a while to develop. There is no real organization to Occupy yet, and that is part of the problem. If they can agree on a clear goal, then their tactics can match that goal well.
HeyHeymymy
(5 posts)Were primarily about the mess left behind. Maybe the OWS should take a little more care in keeping things clean?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)that the cops made trash and the media photographed?
You mean that trash?
People really need to go IN PERSON to a local occupy... no I am being dead serious on this.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)The tents were crowded, but they were as clean and neat as tents can be.
I have done a lot of camping in my time. It looked like a campsite. There was nothing foul or all that messy about it.
aquart
(69,014 posts)I'm sure you're right to be so discouraged.
ProfessionalLeftist
(4,982 posts)Its criminal owners are and they ram it down the throats of the 99%. Propaganda works, evidently. Someone in this thread posted some numbers and I've seen others like them. The majority of the nation is progressive to moderate/centrist. The rest - a very loud and illiterate but greedy and sociopathic minority - are conservative.
Re: Occupy and organization - if they had "organization" and "leaders" that simply makes them easy targets, IMO for the criminal owners to toss eggs at them and the movement.
With YouTube, social media, etc. I think they can do a lot to define and portray themselves - do an end-run around the corprat for-profit media which exists solely to catapult the propaganda for the conservative criminal owners.
Of course it would be easier and more convenient if the criminal owners' propaganda ministry would give OWS a platform but they won't. They are conservative. But - the rest of us are mostly, not.
They have a clear set of goals, enumerated multiple times in multiple ways, all boiling down to the fact that the 1% have sucked the political, economic and social life out of the rest of us and we've had enough and we're taking it back. Thus the word "occupy". That's a pretty clear goal, IMO.
But I'm not blinkered by the ministry of propaganda and its "the nation is conservative and OWS has no message" meme.
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)Instead of personally insulting anyone who disagrees with you. You'd find out that about 20% of the country self identifies as liberal or progressive, 40% as moderate, and 40% as conservative. You can dislike that, deny it, repress it, but it's the facts.
Jello Biafra
(439 posts)it's a social movement......wish people would get this straight.....
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)Yes, and you stand as strong testimony to the damage they can do, even if just in the background.
There is no real organization to Occupy yet, and that is part of the problem.
Actually, it's part of their amazing strength and resilience. Occupy is VERY well-organized, just not hierarchically organized. That is a mystery and a factor of confusion and consternation for TPTB who don't therefore know how to deal with them.
If they can agree on a clear goal, then their tactics can match that goal well.
They have very clear goals -- just not a nice, neat laundry list of legislation or whatever people like you think they should have. They want the whole freaking system CHANGED. And so do I. They don't just want a new law or two, they want massive, foundational change in the whole thing, from the bottom up. One of the things they want is the money out of politics.
As for their tactics, I approve them 100% and most Americans have so far been not dissauded by what they've been doing. If you have recent polls that show otherwise, please post a link.
But this I know: Karl Rove's political group tried to tar Elizabeth Warren as a founder and supporter of OWS and HER poll numbers promptly went up. He had to change tactics, quick. (Now she's being lied about by his group as the cause of the meltdown and overseer of the Bailout.)
Don't you worry about Occupy. They're here to stay and will go on to have even more of the public's approval as time goes on. There may be dips and turns in their numbers, but they're solid.
tledford
(917 posts)Occulus
(20,599 posts)What if you could structure a movement laterally instead of vertically?
izquierdista
(11,689 posts)People are getting OWS. People got the civil rights movement. People got the Vietnam war protests. People got Stonewall and gay liberation. Not all of them at first, some it took time for them to understand, and when they didn't understand, they gave the false impression that tactics were hurting the message.
But that's what it takes, tactics that shake the conservative acceptors of the status quo until they realize that yes, this struggle IS about them. I'm amazed at what has happened in 3 months. Three months after Rosa Parks got arrested or after Stonewall not much had changed at all. Three months after Wall Street was first occupied and it has been copied in hundreds of cities worldwide. That is because it's not to difficult to figure out if you are in the 1% or not. The only ones that haven't figured it out are the enforcers.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)that directly challenges the mythos inflicted on this country by the Reagan Right for 30 years, the more it will resonate.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)every successful political movement has had to adjust their tactics over time. These tactics are not shaking conservative acceptors. That's the problem. It is alienating people who agree with OWS. OWS has it a little easier in that the majority of Americans agree with their message about Wall Street and corporate influence in government.
The problem is that they are viewed as amatuer in how they address what most Americans agree is a problem.
shraby
(21,946 posts)make themselves known and what they don't like. Where does your wealth of information concerning what others think come from? MSM? Poor choice as they are the 1%. How about listening to the other 99% who have been shafted 7 ways from Sunday and are darned tired of it.
The more MSM downplays what they do, and Bloomberg spouts his rhetoric against them and the other mayors try to disband them, they are doing exactly what they have set out to do.
So far the status quo has look like a permanent press pair of pants..it's time they discovered they have britches that can wrinkle.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)isn't going to be what the majority of Americans think usually. I get the idea from polling on the movement. There isn't really any other way to gauge the popularity of a movement as it is.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)The vast majority didn't used to believe that torture as an American virtue. It didn't believe that stepping over starving people is an American virtue. In its nascent form, there was much that came out of the reactionary right's movement that that most American's found ludicrous. Propaganda from very powerful sources has done its job on the majority of Americans
The left is starting on a long journey. There will be martyrs but we will be better for it in the end.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)That some Americans think torture is a virtue, and that people starving to death is "good" because suffering is so damn virtuous is shocking to me. We didn't believe these kinds of things when I was growing up - they've pounded such messages home for so long that RW thinkers have accepted such messages.
Call yourself a patriot, and you can pretty much get the religious right and authoritarians to believe ANYTHING, and destroy anything.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)the country is NOT conservative... the POWER ELITES are... that includes most of the media.
Secondly, you have a lot of people here who have been at actual occupies, some of us are now covering them, for real. What do you want to know? Because the bias you are getting from most of the media is quite honestly what the POWER ELITES want you to think.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm so tired of the narrative that the M$M is liberal - it isn't. It's conservative and completely co-opted by corporate interests.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)it's the major gatekeeper to our national and collective story (history). Thank Gid for the internet.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)That's what SOPA will try to address. If we let it.
wilsonbooks
(972 posts)4 Polls That Show Occupy Wall Street is Just Getting Started
Is the increasingly popular movement poised to turn the tide of American history?
October 24, 2011 |
Photo Credit: sashakimel on Flickr
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After over a month of demonstrations, numerous dismissals, and thousands of arrests, Occupy Wall Street is gaining momentum. Over the last two weeks, polls have poured in revealing that Americans familiar with the protests largely support them. And since that familiarity will continue to increase, we can only conclude that the country's support for the movement will keep on growing
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Or is your opinion based on what you have read and heard on the news?
And what tactics would you suggest be used to challenge Citizens United?
What tactics should be used to challenge the excessive outsourcing and importing?
What tactics should be used to get the wealthy corporations and individuals to pay their fair share of the taxes?
What tactics should be used to insure every qualified American can get a good education?
What tactics should be used to lower the cost of health care insurance and pharmaceuticals?
What tactics should be used to get decent pay and job security for working people in all areas?
And don't we always have to pay some small price, suffer some small inconvenience of temporary loss of wages or comforts in order to make great gains in terms of social progress?
pscot
(21,024 posts)You seem to have something different in mind, and there's nothing wrong with that. Be the change you want.
nineteen50
(1,187 posts)
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Bull shit.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)
LooseWilly
(4,477 posts)Your link shows a change in the results of a poll... but there is nothing in the poll that necessarily links the change to what you are trying to say is causing the change.
In fact, the change could reverse itself as a result of this latest tactic of port closures by OWS... because the poll you linked to is only reflective of opinions resulting from public perceptions of what has been happening in the past. It is too early for any poll to possibly measure the effect on public opinion of yesterday's activities... but you weren't trying to draw conclusions from the poll results— you were doing the opposite: trying to find some numbers that you could slap into your OP to support the opinions you'd like others to share— right? 
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Those of us who can't camp out downtown will have to step up as well, in our way.
OWS is what it is, and was never intended to be the Only Thing That Gets Done.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)I'm on the left and think OWS is doing just fine.
The way your post sounds its almost as if these "tactics" being used are violent guerrilla warfare complete with snipers, when in reality they are just exercising their freedoms of speech and non-violent protests that are available in this country.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)America is mostly a conservative country. That has to be considered when deciding what tactics to use.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)70% against strip searches
and of course polls aren't necessarily neutral: people can find what they look for even in science--the US Information Agency's polls said 1985-87 89% of Hondurans saw Nicaragua as a threat and 70% were for the Contra War; polls by others came out quite differently: UNAH found 65% against the US presence and 90% the Contras', and Central American universities found that 88% of Hondurans named the United States as the country meddling the most in internal affairs and that a whopping 4% of Salvadorans cited Communist subversion as the cause of armed conflict in the region
Aerows
(39,961 posts)We aren't a conservative country, and that is what OWS is telling you - we want to go more to the left. We don't want to be a fascist, corporate-controlled country, because we know what third world banana republics do to their citizens.
We are, and always have been, a nation of rebels. It's our foundation. Because we have so many resources, however, corporations don't like that. Profits over people is a value that they try to drum into our heads to dehumanize us. No, our people are more important than some CEO's profit.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)sadge goddess
(42 posts)referring to.
SHUT DOWN THE COUNTRY. Marches are swell but they don't really do much of anything but blow hot air. We need to show our country who is boss, who runs the actual thing and that we are not taking it anymore!!!!
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)if no one is willing to go along with you. We can't alienate the same people we are trying to inform.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and I agree. Shut down the country until things change. People are frustrated by the millions.
glowing
(12,233 posts)I don't believe its possible until next spring or summer.... but it is possible. OWS is already morphing and has changed the narrative... I hear little of deficits these days and more of Politicians having to speak about jobs and protecting people over corporations. I love the Occupy Foreclosed homes initiative. Could you imagine what they PTB would do if everyone en masse decided not to pay their cc, home, and car payments for just a couple of months? They would be begging us to pay them.. forgiving debts, working to make adjust the principle on home loans to actual value, and quite possibly coming up with ways in which to loan money at non-usary rates.
Students seem the most adept with knowledge of OWS and are quite fluid with sending messages around the world in an instance. If they were to lead the way with refusal to pay student loans en masse, we would see how the financial institutes were willing to work with the debt and how they would be asking politicians to come up with meaningful reform on higher learning so that they were no longer on the hook for so much debt that literally has no security of being re-paid in today's job market.
That would help people to envision a payment refusal on the larger items such as mortgages, car loans, and credit cards. People are afraid of losing a credit rating, losing their homes, losing their mode of transportation, and losing the ability to put emergencies on a credit card to cover what jobs haven't for some time now. I think it would be more plausible for the country to en masse refuse to pay for a couple of months if they saw things working out better for student tuition/ costs/ debts. If at least 75% of the people participated in NOT paying, they would not penalize the people because then their would be no incentive for people to pay again and the banks would go bust without re-payment on debts that they lent out. The banksters and politicians would have to come up with the solutions very quickly if Americans decided to hold their money until a solution was had. They wouldn't have the police force to march into everyone's home and force their hand in writing a check. They have already been hurt by people switching banks. Even my hubby who doesn't pay a lick of attention to any of the politics or actions that I involve myself with, has on his own, come to the conclusion he's switching our money to a credit union. I put the bird in his ear, since our Wachovia accounts have officially switched to Wells Fargo, he doesn't like the way they dictate how he does the bill pay. So, he's opening the accounts at the credit union he seems to like the most and is working on switching his direct deposits, etc over to the accounts... AND on top of it all, they are going to pay us interest on a checking account. We will make money, albeit small, for having the money in the credit union. He's so excited that I put the bird in his ear to check out a credit union while he's looking to change banks. He's already told Wells Fargo that he doesn't like what they are doing. The agent lady told him that many people have complained about the "rules" and that the policies may get switched. He told the lady, while y'all think about possibly changing the rules, I'm just going to change my bank... LOL. He doesn't even realize he's part of a movement; just looking at a practical way of dealing with our finances.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)
Toucano
(11,583 posts)Your position really does call for specific examples.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Feh
Matariki
(18,775 posts)From all I've read today, the port shutdowns are all getting mostly cheers of support from passing traffic, truck drivers at the ports, and even Seahawk fans.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Hundreds of truckers honking as they passed by.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)If you think they are doing so poorly then get out there and show everyone how it's done properly.
OWS is out there. You and I are in here. For some strange reason I have no desire to try to tell them what they are doing wrong. 
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I have no desire to tell them what to do, either. It's usually authoritarians that want to do that - you know, right wingers.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)They are getting it right and are being attacked for it. When you are right, they will eventually see.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)click
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Response to MellowDem (Original post)
Post removed
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)than Occupy, as shown in the poll I added.
Honestly, I thought people knew of the poll, that's why I didn't post it, since it had been discussed before.
The Tea Party is an astroturf movement. The fact that they are more popular shows that Occupy isn't using the most effective tactics.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)
Here's the self descibed demo of that poll:
[div class='excerpt']Q9 Would you describe yourself as very liberal,
somewhat liberal, moderate, somewhat
conservative, or very conservative?
Very liberal ...................................................... 12%
Somewhat liberal ............................................ 15%
Moderate......................................................... 31%
Somewhat conservative.................................. 24%
Very conservative ........................................... 19%
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)43% conservative to 27% liberal, yeah that sort of explains the reason this poll is shit.
I would also point out that even in this crappy poll the negatives tell as much a story as anything. The tea party genearlly has higher negatives than OWS. The Teapsters also had a mainstream media honeymoon while most of OWS has been transmitted via the internet. The Teahaddists in fact had an entire news network whoring for them and think tank and PAC money besides. The monied interests aren't their for occupy. Occupy only has its bodies. What bloody 'tactical/strategic change' is the OP of this rotten post imagining they should do? I don't want to hear BS about 'stop occupying parks' unless there is an actual coherent, long term strategy envisioned.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)Which basically show some self described very liberals with less than liberal views, which means some conservatives misidentified themselves. Go figure, eh?
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)that call themselves "moderate". THEY are the ones who are left leaning on ISSUES, but won't EVER call themselves liberal. That make sense because added together the "very liberal" and "liberal" and "moderate" numbers add up to the super majority on ISSUES that we see in those polls.
One thing that the right has VERY successfully done is demonize the WORD "liberal" for most folks. That's why you have to look at where people stand on ISSUES.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)with the American public. The American public is far more conservative than it is liberal. Not sure what your point is?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)are California, Oregon, Washington -- all states with liberal majorities.
California is extremely liberal and getting more liberal with each passing day.
The LA City Council (as opposed to the police and sheriff's department) invited the OLA folks in to a Council meeting and just passed a resolution opposing Citizen's United and the corporate dominance of our political scene.
So, the states in which people participated in the port demonstrations are not typical of the average American.
Included in the statistics you bring in are the Southern conservatives and Mid-western conservatives.
They are a minority out here.
Schwarzenegger was an awful governor and a Republican. He was mostly elected because people wanted a Terminator-type, a movie star, someone whose name they recognized.
But even he is an environmentalist -- not at all conservative in the sense of Eric Cantor or even George W. Bush. So, the states and cities in which these demonstrations occurred, regardless of polling results, are super-liberal.
In LA, most of the neighbors I have talked to, although not participating in OLA, support it.
Regional differences perhaps.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)because the word has been demonized for -- oh, since at least the 1980s when I remember GHWBush spitting the word out of his mouth at the RNC convention as if he'd eaten something tainted, or had sucked the venom out of a snake bite.
Again and again and again the polls actually show that Americans in significant numbers support all those policies and agenda items that Democrats have traditionally stood for. If you want me to haul out my evidence, just let me know. I've got quite a few links.
BUT, if I do that you have to promise to READ THEM ALL in return (and then never, never, never again say the country is conservative).
Mosaic
(1,451 posts)Is that it seems to take its main leadership from Adbusters, an anarchist magazine. I am so saddened by this, I believed it was Progressive for over two months. It does have progressive elements and support, but it keeps the anarchist core. For that I think the establishment is ruthlessly crushing it. Progressives are even in Congress, we would not be abused like that. OWS must morph into the 99% Movement, and we Progressives must firmly control it. Then all will be well, and we will have real power to move the entire country to left where it belongs.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Adbusters suggested packing it for the winter over a month ago. You realize just how well it was packed right?
As to anarchism... what you see at GA's is direct democracy... (with some anarchist techniques)... but being a historian I can tell you the GA has a tad more in common with an even older form of direct democracy than whatever mikhail bukhanin wrote about. And I mean this by a few millennia.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)At what point might you begin to think that, just maybe, despite all your historical evidence, the Occupy tactic being used in the here and now isn't working?
When there are no remaining camps left? When it is clear that almost no unions support Occupier-inspired industrial shutdowns? When opinion polls show support for the Occupy tactic to be plummeting to near zero?
Might you then consider a rethink of what seems to be the unsustainable and increasingly unpopular Occupy tactic?
Or do you just plow on, refusing to adapt, unchanged and unchanging, citing your take on labor history as the infallible guide to the future?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Because giving up and giving in doesn't work, and when it is important to change things, you HAVE to keep plowing on.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)My view is that the 99% movement against inequality has broad and strong support.
The "Occupy" tactic, however, is weak and unsustainable for a variety of reasons. (i.e. -- Too diffused, too easily busted up by the cops working for the 1%, too hard for most people to participate in, etc.)
The 99% movement needs new tactics.
I also think it needs leadership and yes, political-electoral goals, if it is to become anything other than a small, outlier group of well-intended but marginalized utopians.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)as it stands based upon political affiliations. That's why OWS is apolitical. Utilizing the methods of the polls has failed in the view of far too many Americans, as is evidenced by OWS. If both sides are owned, who do you pick?
I'm not saying that voting, and voting for Democratic candidates is without value - not at all. I'm simply saying that we need to stop veering so far to the hard right in this country.
The fact that we are even talking about wealth inequality is scaring the hell out of the 1%. I'm thrilled they are frightened, because we've been frightened of them for far too long.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)I agree that the initial Occupy tactic of the 99% movement has succeeded in putting economic and social justice on the agenda like never before, and I am truly thrilled by that. I also think the Occupy tactic served its initial purpose and did so quite well.
However, like most people, I don't believe that stubbornly continuing with the increasingly unpopular and unsustainable Occupy tactic will move matters forward and bring about change.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Uh this very thread tells me you aren't like most people. You want them to stop. Most people don't.
See, I can pull random facts out of my butt, too.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)This poll below showed that a majority of people in CA support the message of the 99% movement, but do not support the Occupy tactic:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/11/29/BAQ51M55L2.DTL
Here is a more recent poll, showing further erosion in popular support:
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_US_11161023.pdf
Apology accepted.
- B
You have polls on your side. That's fantastic. OWS isn't going to stop on your say-so, a poll, or because you disagree. You haven't convinced me that OWS and occupying is a failure.
And you won't. I'm dedicated to turning this nation around, as are most occupiers. Please feel free to shout "You are wrong, and so are they!" all day long.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)I thought you were open to ideas, and we were having a discussion.
But giving up isn't a possibility. I figured I needed to make that blatantly obvious.
At least we all know where we stand, right? Peace to you, my friend.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)My point has to do with the diminishing returns of the Occupy tactic. The 99% movement does not have to "give up" just because it's initial tactic is no longer working to build support. It needs new tactics.
I've suggested one here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11618
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I suppose doesn't have to mean aligning with either party. Those WOULD be two good places to demonstrate, and would make it blatant that it isn't about left and right, it's just about right and wrong.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)In community meetings attended mostly by people 55+, we discuss using the idea of occupy to express our concern about situations in our community.
A park not properly cared for by the city?
Let's occupy it to clean it up.
So, "occupy" means that a group takes a challenge, a civic mess, a neighborhood eyesore, some unfairness in the community, a deteriorating school -- and occupies it to make it better.
I think that is what is happening to the movement.
And I think it is a good thing. The concept that the people should start making change for themselves and not just follow the lead of the corporate masters is the most important thing.
Hopefully, the port workers will understand that their difficult working conditions are not unknown to the rest of the country now. Maybe THEY SHOULD OCCUPY THEIR OWN PORT. That is what is needed in our country. We really don't have to put up with the mess caused by the corporate neglect and incompetence in our country -- whether it be the incompetence on Wall Street or the neglect in our local communities.
We voted for change and new leadership. We got the same old, same old Bush and Clinton appointees. I don't dislike Hillary Clinton all that much, but really? Why did Obama promise change and then appoint so many people from the Bush and Clinton administrations?
We were hoping that he would occupy the White House and kick out all the old ideas and old solutions that never worked.
So now we are occupying. But occupy does not just mean tents. It never did.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)TELL THEM THAT.
And movements have an arc.
Tell me are we still talking about deficits, or are we talking jobs? For the record OWSers are meeting people in congress, they are talking jobs not what you despise.
By the way camping at a lunch counter was also fully ineffective in the momemt. It took years. Actually, I suspect due to technology and the global nature of this, the arc is moving faster.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm not giving up, and I suspect you won't give up, either. At some point, it takes people that are dedicated to change for things to change.
Polls don't frighten me one bit, nor do nay-sayers.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)OWSers are living in the momemt.
I report...but I get it. And yesterday I talked to truckers, none wanted to go on record, but they were not angry at all.
Granted, that's pretty anecdotal.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)the Ayn Rand worshipers, the Ron Paul followers and the right-wing in the US. They are the anarchists. They want deregulation, free roaming privileges for capitalists and no rights for anyone else. They don't care about the quality of our air, our water or our lives -- as long as they can fulfill their rule-free, lawless dream of unfettered capitalism.
There are very, very few anarchists on the left.
The anarchists don't acknowledge what they are. They have anointed themselves with catchy titles and use euphemisms for what they really want -- anarchy.
OWS was not anarchical. To the contrary, it was democratic. If you had actually gone, for example, to the Occupy Portland site, you would have learned that at the entry to the site, there was a sign listing certain basic rules.
The GA meetings are all about making proposals, discussing them, and voting on those that the entire group will follow.
It is a good idea to be informed about things before you criticize them. The Occupy movement is not at all anarchical.
Mosaic
(1,451 posts)You are right, a very difficult term to grasp, anarchists do hide. And this is a form of labor based anarchy Noam Chomsky promotes. So it is coming from the left, and there are people who desire this form of government in Occupy. I'm sad that these people are the ones the police are cracking down on, because they erroneously believe they represent the whole movement.
I thank adbusters for setting a spark, but please don't look to them for leadership as they continue to try to do. Ignore them, focus on Progressive values, as most of OWS has been demanding, as http://occupyblog.blogspot.com, my blog of the movement, has been linking to since September, then we will win.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I know that seems odd, but when I hear Chomsky on politics, his voice just seems to go in one ear and out the other. I took a course on Chomsky's linguistics theories way back in the 1960s.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)First, if you're going to offer polls to prove your claims, it would help if they were recent. I realize that one month is recent in real life, but not so much in modern politics.
Second, this movement is NOT the child of the New Left or their methods. This is a throwback to an earlier age. Some of the ideas pioneered in the 60s have been used, such as performance art style mockery, but I think the roots of this movement run far deeper than imagined. Given that, older methods, such as literally occupying a space, have been resurrected. Times change. It's a fact of life.
Third, and this one is the key, the perception of the movement is not controlled by the movement. It's controlled by the times. You think a protest like this would have sprung up nationwide (hell, worldwide if you regard it as an offshoot of the various protests of the last decade or so) five years ago? Not no, but hell no. The basic instability of the global economic system has reopened the old economic debate. This is a good thing. It's not solely a good thing because we can address inequality, but because we can point to places like Europe and the US which are attempting slow-motion suicide through austerity. It's time to shoot the sacred cows of neoclassical orthodoxy (the figurative cows which are their arguments and worldview, not actual cows or people) and move toward a viable and sustainable economic system (my preference is mid-century managed capitalism). The success of the movement will be due in small part to its actions and in greater part to the conditions surrounding it.
JHB
(37,166 posts)The whole point of Occupy not having a leader or the sort of clear agenda the MSM is used to is to underscore that it's not one person's platform or showcase, it's not like the billionaire-funder Teabagger organizations. There's no single person who can be discredited or bought off, this is about things that are larger than that.
In one sense Occupy won't do anything because of its lack of structure. What it will do, has done, and needs action from everyone who can to go further, is act as a catalyst for more concrete steps, and to remind people that they are not the only ones who feel this way.
Not everyone likes the tents in parks or the marches. So what? Go out there and do better, be more effective, push things in the right direction.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)Left was smashed in this country in the 40s and 50s and even the rise of the "New Left" in the 60s did not restore a left-wing ideology to full health. Had it done so, a reactionary like Reagan would have never been possible.
OWS has already succeeded in changing the conversation from the stale false dialectic of Dem vs. Repuke to the far truer dialectic of 99% vs. 1%. In so doing, after only 3 months, it has a glorious future ahead of it.
Today's closure of the west-coast ports is part of a build-up to a national General Strike tentatively planned for May 1, 2012. If you believe that only a General Strike can fix what is wrong (or start to fix it), then you will not view these tactics as counter-productive. If, on the other hand, you are a 'reformist' (preferring to work within bourgeois capitalist institutions for incremental tweaks of the system), you will probably find yourself at odds with OWS' tactics.
I say a hearty 'Bravo!' and look forward to what OWS comes up with next.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)everyone is free to participate and express "Better" ways to protest and accomplish goals.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)If you don't like it, go right on out and offer suggestions. Bashing them from the comfort of your keyboard isn't going to change a damn thing.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)THAT's who dominates the GAs. All the people who are there.
Go dominate one yourself.
David__77
(23,627 posts)So I fail to comprehend the point.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)YOU ARE NOT LEFT! You might THINK you're left because of the relativistic nature of today's politics, but in reality you are a centrist and possibly even center-right. That's at best. These tactics ARE WHAT A REAL LEFT DOES! They are MILITANT in their fight against the power structure. Look at the left in Greece or even Britian. THAT'S a true left. It's not mamby-pamby "Let's not get anybody mad at us."
I'm sorry and I mean this in the kindest way possible, but if you don't like these methods you're not a leftist. And that's OK. Not everybody will BE a leftist. Just don't think you're a leftist because you're to the left of Newt Gingrich or even Mitt Romney.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)One does not define the political right and left based on adherence to a particular tactic.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)This is what militant labor does. I predicted the rebirth of the labor fights we used to have a few years back. This is the birth of a new militant labor movement. I think they've had it...and you will see more, not less, of this.
Welcome to 1900 redux.
The first thing that will go from many a contract will be the pretty muzzling no strike clauses. If any union member overtly supports this, it's a firable offense.
If they can quash it (I think it's too late, yesterday showed that) then it would be still born and you can kiss all labor advances good bye. Personally not only I hope it succeeds, yesterday was pretty successful. Ports were slowed down for a few hours, San Diego, I don't think you realize how historic that is for this town...all the way to port shutdowns, Portland and Oakland.
Say hi to the kind of labor milintancy not seen in decades. And yes our conservative press is pretty much down playing this.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)I'm sure you've noticed that the more militant and widespread labor is, the more left the political spectrum is.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)That it does.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)Let's GO!!!
I want to see at least as much respect for the Left as when Labor was much stronger during my adolescent years (60s).
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)I love that I can see who is silently nodding at bullshit like this. I guess OWS should really be taking their cues from the "very conservative" poll responders you cite. Maybe if everyone put on ties and filled out the proper forms things would get better and these scary street people wouldn't turning off the stiffs!
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)Occupy needs to occupy the Republican party and all their corporate masters - like Rupert Murdoch.
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)just like one of the major political parties, or any politician running for office?
OWS is not shaping itself based on public opinion, it is making a statement about the 1%. Too many people have been brainwashed by the media, and by their dependence on big corporate ideology. When something threatens their sense of comfort with the status quo, then you may see something like a drop in the polls. Don't be discouraged. The whole world is watching.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)In fact, fewer and fewer people are watching. It is time for the 99% movement to move on from the Occupy tactic.
You aren't the whole world. The fact that we are even discussing this says that, yes indeed, people are watching.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Actually the foreign press IS watching...
Consider this, the guardian, the observer and al Jazeera, for example...run live blogging of a port shut down. At the same time the American press goes out of it's way not to cover in a significant way.
This is global. Funny thing I can read Ha'Aretz and find out what Israelies want...it went off well before the US...but I cannot find what the local occupy wants from the local paper of record. Care to explain why this is the case?
I am covering them for local indie media, and I know why they were there yesterday. We even reported on it...shocking I know...them are part of the universe of facts. Like the rest of the local media I also reported on the port's owner's statement, which I dutifully transcribed.
But since I suspect you are reading the pretty conservative press of record, they were out there supporting the ILWU against the SSA ports, which has made working conditions hell, and tried to break the Union. You know who owns SSA Maritime? Goldman Sachs.
Now I watched MSM last night and for some reason why they were out there in the middle of a Pacific Storm was not quite reported. Don't you think the WHY helps to get it? For the record the Guardian and AJ blogs did cover that...as they say...cui bono?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)The corporate media will always use tactics like blackouts, pooh-poohing, spinning and minimizing to make Occupiers look like a few radical freaks or "dirty-commie-hippies".
Go outside the US media, and yes, the whole world is watching.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)
"OWS is not shaping itself based on public opinion..."
When will people understand the difference?
MilesColtrane
(18,678 posts) Bragi
(7,650 posts)Most of the camps are gone and there is little evident support for the few that remain. The port shutdown was an over-reaching bust.
And yeah, opinion polls show that despite most people supporting the 99% message, they do not support the unsustainable Occupy tactics.
So what evidence can you cite that shows that the Occupy tactic has robust and growing support?
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)I see it as evidence of a movement experimenting with new and bold tactics.
FWIW, the port closures on 12/12/2011 were partly intended to build momentum for a national general strike on May 1, 2012.
What would it have taken for you to have concluded that the port shutdowns were a "success"? Conversely, what about them leads you to call them a 'bust'?
Depending upon which polls you consult, the Occupy Movement enjoys a favorability rating that is between 4-6 times that of the current Congress. Do you really need me to provide links to these polls? They've been widely publicized here and in various other forums.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Bragi
(7,650 posts)No way that the Occupy tactic is failing, it's all just propaganda from the 1%. For sure...
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and want OWS to change the way they are doing things.
Why, exactly? Why do you want OWS to not succeed? They are getting visibility. Why do you want them to get politically entrenched, rather than allowing them to flourish as an apolitical movement?
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Why would anyone want the Occupy movement to fail, when it is a movement made up of kind and courageous dedicated souls willing to risk their safety and freedom in order to help prevent the banksters from ever having the power to destroy the economy and hurt so many people?
We already know for sure that RWers generally hate the Occupy movement.
It's really hard to understand why Democrats would want it to fail.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)on DU is accused of being against it or wanting it to fail.
i've seen people get jumped on and called all sorts of things for even the most mild criticisms of tactics, or merely posting stuff like "i think doing ______ could help OWS get more support."
MADem
(135,425 posts)I would say most, if not all, people on this board are supportive of the OWS concepts of social justice and economic parity. They want to see corporations held accountable, they want to see politicians and lobbyists get a real divorce. They want Big Money out of the political process, they want elective power to represent them.
However, if you're not behind the "urban camping" or the protests that are extremely tangential, at best, to these essential concepts, you're branded as an "enemy" who "hates" OWS--I've caught that crap more than once. The demand for lockstep fealty to sometimes lame or dumb ideas is just tiresome. It doesn't mean one doesn't like the ideas noted in my first paragraph.
What's amusing is that I got ripped a new one by more than one intense acolyte for suggesting that OWS use some of their donations to rent office space, to manage their publicity, to coordinate donations, outreach, activities, etc. I had to laugh when they did just that--in NYC's financial district, no less.
Veruca Salt
(921 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"it's all just propaganda from the 1%..."
Much like calling a successful port strike an "overreach". Six of one, half a dozen of the other...
Bragi
(7,650 posts)One of the less endearing qualities of some people who are deeply ideological is when they think everyone who disagrees with them on anything at all is actually working off some hidden agenda.
I guess it must be clear to you by now that I've been hanging out at DU for a decade or so just so I could sweep in at the right moment to promote my hidden agenda, which no doubt involves promoting inequality and injustice for the 1%.
For sure.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)What aspect of OWS do you feel is not working to help promote justice and equality for the 99%?
Bragi
(7,650 posts)I think the 99% movement is strong and resonates with most people. The Occupy tactic, however, is a problem. It got initial attention, but it now alienates most people.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Occupy isn't going to go away, and you are right, it does resonate with a lot of people. Where would you go from here if you were part of the OWS movement? And I don't think attaching OWS to a political party is going to work, just for reference.
Suggestions would help.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)This "relabeling" meme about the "99% movement" is commonly recognized by Occupy as a propaganda tactic to try to change the name of the movement in order to dilute the message and help destroy the movement.
Relabeling is often used in cases where an organization gets a negative public perception, a bad reputation.
2 obvious examples are Blackwater, which changed it's name to Xe Services LLC in 2009, and the now defunct DLC, who are now known as New Democrats or Third Way.
Nice try, but it ain't gonna fly.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)The "99% versus the 1%" concept behind the movement has enormous support and has already changed political discourse, while the "Occupy" tactic increasingly lacks broad appeal.
Personally, i think the movement would be more effective in bringing about change if it was branded around the concept that underlies the movement, not around the tactic that was initially used by the movement with some success, but which has run its course.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)that you're speaking for your own view which has, no matter what you think, rather limited support in the broader population.
Occupy has now chosen to Occupy Foreclosures -- if they gave up the Occupy "branding," as you refer to it, they couldn't Occupy Foreclosures. I predict this tactic will have very widespread support -- and some non-support even among those they would help.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)I agree it was clever to be able to tie in nicely with foreclosed properties. This was a totally inadvertent coincidence, but good nonetheless. However, it doesn't refute my argument against connecting the movement to a narrow Occupy tactic.
MADem
(135,425 posts)"Urban camping" is just not catching on with the bulk of the population. Nor is goading the police.
The focus needs to go back to issues that are directly associated with corporate corruption, undue political influence, the disconnect between the elected and the electorate. Put the ire where it is deserved--on the lobbyists, the corrupt politicians, the corporate fatcats, the greedy bankers.
I can't help but feel that it's really not cool for Occupy enthusiasts to yell at the members of the 99 % just because they aren't enthused with some of the tactics they're employing.
My view is this: Don't excoriate me on the one hand because I find the behavior ill-advised, and then purport to speak on my behalf on the other.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)quite snarky and intemperate and I'm removing it.
I apologize for insinuating that you were working off some 'hidden agenda' - I just tend to ove-react when I see words like 'bust' used when my heroes and patriots were actually getting arrested for what they believe in.
Hope my apology is accepted. I'm really not that big an asshole
Bragi
(7,650 posts)Apology totally accepted.
Next time I get snarky and intemperate here, I will do my best to follow your example.
- B
Aerows
(39,961 posts)And you are, as well, for being gracious enough to accept said apology.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)if you really want to bring things to a standstill.
good for OWS, and us, if they can get those numbers. right now, it's not even close, even if you add up all the occupiers in the country. that number needs to be multiplied many, many times for a nationwide action to be effective.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)And that is causing push back, because the upper echelons do not want democracy to have such power. If we can strike, and demand wages, well, we might be able to demand anything - like health care and a society that isn't subservient to the ultra-wealthy. We can't have that.
dionysus
(26,467 posts) Edweird
(8,570 posts)One way or another things need to change and I think you prefer OWS to some of the alternatives.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)That's because they make themselves and their message visible. Some people disagree with their message. Does it mean that protestors shouldn't protest? No.
If you are discussing OWS, then you are aware of them, which is the entire reason for protesting. If they would just "go away", no one would be discussing them.
I don't want them to go away. I want them to keep annoying as many people as possible since that causes people to talk about them and their message.
randr
(12,418 posts)This is why we see so much difference in coverage between Tea Party events and OWS events.
It is the responsibility of the OWS movement to find a way to speak with a coherent voice and articulate the demands that are on the minds of 99% of the people of this nation.
I, personally, have not seen this as yet and the MSM have taken advantage of the void to spin the events any way they desire.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But the press ignores them.
Top changes they'd like to see
Medicare for all
Banking reforms. This includes reinstating Glass Steagall. Oh this also includes prosecuting fraud
And the TOP one is removing money out of politics.
Granted it would take going to the horses's mouth and asking since the press ain't reporting.
For the record they will meet with the progressive caucus to talk jobs and money out of politics.
I hope this helps.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)America wouldn't hear about these concerns in the mass media were it not for brave Occupiers. That a lot of misinformation accompanies the coverage was unavoidable.
Gold Metal Flake
(13,805 posts)But I doubt you will.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)I'd like to see the 99% movement adopt a tactic that doesn't make it easy for cops paid by the 1% to pick off isolated and diffused groups of protesters. I'd also support a tactic that gets distinctly political.
Accordingly, my suggestion would be for the 99% movement to declare its intention to mount two huge national demonstrations this coming year against economic inequality, social injustice and criminal crony capitalism.
The first demo would take place on the week of August 27 in Tampa at the GOP convention. The second would take place September 3 in Charlotte at the Democratic Party national convention.
- B
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)If so, please try to attend a General Assembly and make your ideas known and heard.
Also, you can take a look at http://interoccupy.org for a site that is providing some coordination between various Occupy sites. Since you are proposing a national event, you may find this site offers you a venue for making this suggestion in a way that ensures it is vetted properly.
Gold Metal Flake
(13,805 posts)So show us all how to do it better.
Go ahead. Get busy. We will watch for the results on Keith and Rachel. TIA.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)Now what do you suggest for in the meantime and for after? Do you support the Mayday 2012 general strike idea? Or is that too disruptive for you?
Actually it sounds to me like you want to take the focus OFF of the economic rulers and put it back on their puppets in the political arena. Which gets us back to allowing the capitalists to rule behind the scenes.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)As for a general strike, I would have no problem if it was disruptive. My concern is that it would lack visible support and suggest a lack of support for the 99% movement.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)What do you do before those actions? What do you do after? Do you favor taking the focus off of the economic elite and putting it back on their puppets in the political power structure? There were HUGE rallies and demonstrations against the Iraqi war and they didn't do ANYTHING to even change the DISCUSSION about our invasion of Iraq. Unlike the tactics of occupation which in two and a half months has actually changed the parameters of the discussion about economic injustice in this country.
Large scale demonstrations ARE a tactic it's true, but they can't be the ONLY tactic. BECAUSE THEY DON'T WORK WITHOUT COMPLEMENTARY TACTICS! Tactics like strikes, occupations, and unity operations with the representatives of the working class like the unions. Because those tactics keep the focus on the RULERS in this dictatorship of capital and NOT the flunkies and toadies OF those rulers. You can't hurt the capitalists with demonstrations. You can only hurt them by getting into their pocketbooks with strikes and disruption of their profit chain.
One thing that you're missing is that these tactics are MATURE tactics in the class struggle being tried out in a country with an embryonic class consciousness. As I've said OFTEN anytime these tactics are brought up, it doesn't matter at this stage whether they are totally successful and effective or not. These are warning shots across the bow of the 1% AND they're practice runs for futher actions in the future. Even partial success is good practice. Because unless the capitalist rulers back off, this is just the beginning. Do you think the capitalist rulers will back off?
Bragi
(7,650 posts)I am not trying to make the case that one tactic -- huge demonstrations aimed at political parties, for example -- will bring about complete or even profound change. Nor do I dismiss as meaningless direct action such as strikes, occupations, etc.
However, I think I am less dismissive than you seem to be about the potential role electoral political action can play in bringing about real change in America.
My feeling is that electoral political action could bring about change IF it includes nominating and electing candidates for office who are sympathetic to and prepared to enact lawful measures that will result in increased economic and social justice and equality.
Personally, I think it really does matter that the society and economy that needs to be reformed actually has legal institutions that can exert power which are legally tied into a constitution that provides for elections and free speech. To me, this means these institutions are at least vulnerable to seizure by popular democratic forces, if these forces can break through their current suppression. Would we not be foolish to ignore this pathway to change?
I'll leave it at that. Where do you stand on using electoral mechanisms to (re)seize power?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Is comming.
I can tell you that since that's a tension.
Six months, worst case, "splinter groups" (That will be the conservative media frame), will either support candidates or run their own slates.
Yes, go ahead and mark this post. It is part of the multilevel tactics and the arc of social movements. And more than a few candidates will also woo them as we move hard into silly season.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)to walk and chew gum at the same time. I personally think it would be a good idea if Occupy had a MASSIVE presence at BOTH political conventions. Just to watch the power structure's reaction to it.
But you're right, I don't hold out much hope for electoral remedies. Not until money is OUT of politics. And that won't happen until you get enough people voted in to change the present laws and even to amend the Constitution. But you can't get those people voted in until money is out of politics. Kind of a catch 22 there.
You can however with enough pressure on profits, FORCE the capitalists to back off. The power of class conscious workers to create change is there. I think there's more of a chance of raising the consciousness of the working class than there is of getting money out of politics under the present system.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)How dead is a movement that was able to shut down multiple ports yesterday?
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Did any ports actually get "shut down"?
I just see a motherjones article which is a very biased website and a bunch of articles on the "planned" shutdown
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)slay
(7,670 posts)n/t
xchrom
(108,903 posts)The Florida Department of Children and Families dwindled to little more than computer kiosks, where low-income residents sign up for food stamps. For Shannon McLeish, it was one more sign that it was time to take to the streets.
McLeish, 44, is from a small town in central Florida, not far from Daytona Beach and Nascar’s Daytona International Speedway. Shortly after Occupy Wall Street debuted in lower Manhattan, she helped gather a group of protesters along Speedway Boulevard in downtown Daytona. McLeish carried a sign that said Buy Back Congress. It was the beginning of Occupy Daytona Beach.
The Sunshine State seems unlikely territory for the movement, but Occupy has taken root in cities and towns across Florida. Swaths of the state are deeply conservative—ostensibly more hospitable to the Tea Party than Occupy Wall Street—and the state is known for beaches and Disney World, not political action. But Occupy has resonated here, drawing hundreds of people to demonstrations even in the smallest towns. And this month, Florida will be home to the first-ever state Occupy convention—the “People’s Convention.”
Occupy has been a long time coming for many in Florida. Several years back, McLeish grew concerned about rampant industrial pollution and high asthma rates in her area. She feared for the health of her two young children and blamed elected officials for failing to regulate industry. Florida has one of the highest rates of air pollution in the country.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)Buy Back Congress
I LOVE it.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)indeed
golddigger
(3,804 posts)polling company they site before posting bullshit.
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)
spanone
(135,928 posts)fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)yawn
boxman15
(1,033 posts)The 99%'s goals have BROAD support among liberals, moderates, and even conservatives. It's a message that should be able to latch on to the American people and pressure Washington, especially those politicians on the right, to do more to change things for the better.
Unfortunately, like you said, Occupy's tactics are hurting far more than they are helping. Right now, talking to my progressive friends, most are upset that the movement is acting the way it is. Blocking off ports does nothing to help end corporate influence in America. It just makes life harder for the 99%, the ones actually doing the work there. Notice how virtually no labor unions support this movement? It's not because of their goals, it's because of the movement's increasingly childish and borderline anarchist tactics. These tactics aren't winning anyone over. They're alienating former supporters and giving opponents ammunition.
My mom's side of the family is filled with Tea Partiers and they are running around telling everybody "See? I told ya so!" The Occupiers, of which I once considered myself a part of, are looking more and more like the ridiculous stereotypes the right tried to make the movement out to be initially. It's sad, really. Instead of getting their message across, they are doing ridiculous things. And it gets more ridiculous by the day, diluting the message, which I support and fight for 110%, even further.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Can overtly say STRIKE. there are no strike clauses in contracts.
Off the record they're for it.
The Central Labor Council of San Diego, for example...is a full supporter of the local occupiers and has solidarity marches regularly. The NATIONAL AFL-CIO has issued many a statement of support. Now if you read the conservative press, this will not be reported.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)because you're poorly informed. The mainstream media have convinced you of things that aren't true.
Please, please, EDUCATE yourself.
boxman15
(1,033 posts)They have given very little time to the movement's message, and far more time to the cop-induced violence or, and this is the key, the antics of the Occupiers.
The American news media is, on the whole, atrocious. I expect nothing less out of them. They will try to dilute the message of the Occupiers as much as they can. The problem is that the Occupiers are giving the media ammunition and giving them reason to focus on crazy antics instead of the message. Early on, OWS did a great job of staying on point and getting the message across through the media distortion machine. Now, it seems to have lost its way. It seems more interested in garnering attention than making a point. Which is a damn shame. The media will give OWS plenty of attention, but it will be overwhelmingly negative because the Occupiers are acting somewhat juvenile in some areas.
OWS needs to quit it with the antics and get back to spreading a powerful and extremely important message that needs to be heard worldwide. Corporate influence on politics needs to end as soon as possible. The antics of OWS are distracting from that message and alienating would-be supporters. The movement needs to get back on point ASAP.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)
dionysus
(26,467 posts)they're 100% perfect, apparently you're not allowed to have an opinion on what they're doing...
SlimJimmy
(3,184 posts)or shut the hell up.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)SlimJimmy
(3,184 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)Look at who else has recced this thread.
SlimJimmy
(3,184 posts)but that was worth the click.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)CrawlingChaos
(1,893 posts)
ananda
(28,903 posts)It's the rightwing media and corporatist police state tactics
that are ruining America.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Occupy goes beyond politics.
It's about MORALITY rather than LEGALITY.
Morality should trump legality. Any criminal can make laws that make something illegal. It takes a more intelligent head to understand the nature of what is truly just.
This is about justice for acts of criminality that were made to appear, more or less, legal.
TheKentuckian
(25,035 posts)A willing and determined 30% can push very hard and create a powerbase to be reckoned with. The mushy middle will follow whatever those that move events as has been the case throughout history.
Logically, the 99% is always going to be marketing as many of the 99% are loyal to the systems of control carefully set up by and for the profit of the one percent. There will always be Torries and no shortage of them.
alp227
(32,075 posts)regarding sit-ins at restaurants, just look at the reaction to the protesters
(Photo was from the Woolworth sit-in at Jackson, Miss.)
JEB
(4,748 posts)and get something done. Acting like good little serfs is not going to cut it.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It was abused.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Click on the number of recs in the OP and see who has recced it.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I predict the 'list reccers' feature will quietly go away.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Life is simpler that way.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)This is the silliest theory I've seen in a long time. There was no discussion at all about the issues OWS raised until they put themselves out on the streets 24/7 across america and across the world. It was precisely their tactic of having a permanent physical location for public protest against the system that became a transformational event: it changed the terms of the discussion in the corporate controlled media. Everyone went off message.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)The abolitionist? the labor movement? the civil rights movement? the gay liberation movement?
All of these great movements were dismissed by mainstream social reformers as kooks and extremist!
The ONLY Thing that is important is that movements force issues that no one wanted to talk about in the mainstream of conversation.
Even Forbes magazine is now talking about income disparity. Everyone is talking about it!
bvar22
(39,909 posts)
Who will STAND and FIGHT for THIS American Majority?
Occupy WILL!!
You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green][center]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
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bvar22
(39,909 posts)You know those unsolicited robot Computer Robot calls that come in at Supper Time??
THAT is PPP.
<snip>
"PPP employs Interactive Voice Response (IVR) technology to poll quickly, cost-effectively, accurately and on a wide range of issues. Since 2001 we have conducted surveys for politicians & political organizations, unions, consultants, and businesses. View our client list. In addition to surveys, PPP provides automated message delivery services (robocalls). To learn more about what services we offer, go to Hire PPP."
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/aboutPPP/about-us.html
Sounds like that their Survey Population is biased toward those that will stay on the line
and talk to an unsolicited Robot Call.
I am NOT in THAT population.
I hang up immediately.
I don't know ANYBODY that will talk to an unsolicited computer robot call.
"30 years experience in creating and growing businesses"
sound way too much like Republicans and DLC Conservatives for me to trust anyway.
Thanks for your concern.
[font size=5 color=green][center]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
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karenbe111
(7 posts)What a crock! "...pretty indisputable...less popular with the American people..." You have got to be one of the right's paid stooges!
Wind Dancer
(3,618 posts)Posting a BS article like that on DU is not cool!
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)teach ins, recruting, training and supporting liberal and progressive candidates etc..
Americans are not very political and our leaders reflect it. It's time to use a combination of approaches.
Public awareness=public participation=victory !
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)the media did not even go as hard in the paint with the tea boogers as they have from day 1 with OWS. Even when idiots had sidearms strapped to them like computer game commandos, not one of those in the MSM made any kind of ugly remark about the blatant display of aggression. They were being "patriotic". All of the ugly, misspelled signs ranting about made up shit that glen beck put in their heads got no more than a "you go, girl" from MSM.
OWS, on the other hand, have been vilified from the jump when they rightfully showed contempt for the wall street asswipes and the 1% who got us all into the mess we're all in. Their tactics, if given the same reception as the tea boogers got, would have gone over quite well because their cause is just.
golddigger
(3,804 posts)fall for this shit and even give it a rec.
StarsInHerHair
(2,125 posts)Coal miner had begun to form unions, "The Battle of Blair Mountain" they called it. There were very few safety regulations for miners, plus EVERY aspect of their lives was corporate-controlled_they lived on corp. towns, bought their equipment at corp stores, & had sermons in the churches that had to be corporate-approved.
Now the good part: "reports from that time described the miners(who wanted to unionize) as DISORGANIZED RABBLE WITH LITTLE STRATEGIC ACUMEN....THEY WERE PORTRAYED AS AN UNRULY MOB"........so WHY are YOU repeating corporate garbage about OWS?
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)It certainly won't be hurting the left, but I could understand some bristling by corporate Democrats, the Obama types.
As things get worse economically, and they will, the cry for change will only get louder.
unionworks
(3,574 posts)
Bryn
(3,621 posts)OWS will win. Idiots never do, never will win.
randome
(34,845 posts)Does anyone really think you can shame a businessman into behaving better?
It will never happen.
It is our lazy-assed congress critters who put us in this position by driving us into the ditch of a frictionless economy.
Nothing will change until we start holding their feet to the fire. OWS apparently is not interested in doing this.
On edit:
Calling people 'idiots' who disagree with you is not cool.
Bryn
(3,621 posts)wall street boyz, kochbrothers, congress critters who don't listen to the people, CEOs who don't deserve millions, even justice who voted for corporate personhood.
randome
(34,845 posts)johncoby2
(3,363 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)IcyPeas
(21,943 posts)Amy had the author of this book (Nomi Prins) on this morning talking about OWS and wall street. The book sounds great. I never hear anyone on the radio or tv talking about the meaning behind OWS -- they just talk about dirty hippies and porta potties....
I don't think the general public knows much about their actual message. Her interview this morning was great.
http://www.amazon.com/Takes-Pillage-Deceit-Untold-Trillions/dp/0470529598
OccupyIdiots
(1 post)some of their points may be good...
some of their points are pretty ridiculous...
Either way,,, I just appreciate people on camera, who can't articulate a thought.
http://www.occupyidiots.org
applegrove
(118,905 posts)many people in the middle class (who are both independant and centrists) as well as those on the left. 58%. All people who have not benefitted from tax cuts and deregulation. All people who have reason to be against crony capitalism and the buying of the American government. It could grow to be even more of the 99% if they continue to concentrate only on issues of inequality and speak to the multitude of realities that affects. If the 99% becomes a wholly liberal group - it will serve to just cause trouble on the left, just as the tea partiers have on the right. The GOP prays for that. Every day.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)
Terry in Austin
(1,868 posts)Your analysis is flawed, I'm afraid.
Superficial. Dig a little deeper.
Clues: "popular," "endearing."
