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Glenn Greenwald: W.H. Forces P.J. Crowley To Resign For Condemning Abuse Of Manning

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:12 PM
Original message
Glenn Greenwald: W.H. Forces P.J. Crowley To Resign For Condemning Abuse Of Manning
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 01:33 PM by Hissyspit
http://mobile.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2011/03/13/cr...

WH forces P.J. Crowley to resign for condemning abuse of Manning

State Dept. spokesman is out of a job for denouncing the Pentagon's treatment as "counter-productive and stupid"


SUN, 13 MAR 2011 07:14:00 ET

BY GLENN GREENWALD

On Friday, State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley denounced the conditions of Bradley Manning's detention as "ridiculous, counterproductive and stupid," forcing President Obama to address those comments in a Press Conference and defend the treatment of Manning. Today, CNN reports, Crowley has "abruptly resigned" under "pressure from White House officials because of controversial comments he made last week about the Bradley Manning case." In other words, he was forced to "resign" -- i.e., fired.

So, in Barack Obama's administration, it's perfectly acceptable to abuse an American citizen in detention who has been convicted of nothing by consigning him to 23-hour-a-day solitary confinement, barring him from exercising in his cell, punitively imposing "suicide watch" restrictions on him against the recommendations of brig psychiatrists, and subjecting him to prolonged, forced nudity designed to humiliate and degrade. But speaking out against that abuse is a firing offense. Good to know. As Matt Yglesias just put it: "Sad statement about America that P.J. Crowley is the one being forced to resign over Bradley Manning." And as David Frum added: "Crowley firing: one more demonstration of my rule: Republican pols fear their base, Dem pols despise it."

Of course, it's also the case in Barack Obama's world that those who instituted a worldwide torture and illegal eavesdropping regime are entitled to full-scale presidential immunity, while powerless individuals who blow the whistle on high-level wrongdoing and illegality are subjected to the most aggressive campaign of prosecution and persecution the country has ever seen. So protecting those who are abusing Manning, while firing Crowley for condemning the abuse, is perfectly consistent with the President's sense of justice.

MORE

@ggreenwald

Remember how the Bush admin punished Gen. Shinseki for his open dissent on Iraq & all good Dems thought that was awful? http://is.gd/aN2A1B

4 mins ago from web

@ggreenwald

Remember when Bush fired Larry Lindsey for saying the Iraq War might cost $100 billion, prompting Dem outrage? http://is.gd/WpE8sY

4 mins ago from web
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Obama is wrong. Crowley is right.
n/t
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russspeakeasy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Crowley is right, Obama is on the right.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
62. A right wing fascist, I tell ya!
Either that or a socialist Muslim...
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #62
116. Care to point out a few major policies pushed by the Obama admin that were to the left of center?
Edited on Mon Mar-14-11 05:11 AM by liberation
Actual examples welcome, and by "example" I mean factual data not passive aggressive snark.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #116
120. Come on. This has been done over and over and over.
The information is there for anyone who cares about the truth. Here are two good places to begin the education. Start working through these lists and note the "left of center" policy accomplishments.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/10/11/909590/-The-24... (as of October, 2010 so it could easily be updated since)

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/r...
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #120
124. I note that of the first 100 promises, he's kept 25
Edited on Mon Mar-14-11 08:26 AM by caseymoz
And which of these were anything major? I mean, I'm thankful for the credit card bill of rights, but could I have expected that, and a better version of it, with Dean, Kucinich or even Hillary Clinton?

I think respect for human rights, limiting executive authority and respecting Whistleblowers to be like, boilerplate for liberals. Not to mention closing Guantanamo? Stopping two wars (after magnanimously accepting the Nobel Peace Prize for not being Bush)? Nothing counts to me if those aren't respected. Nothing. Even Bush I & II, Reagan and Nixon had pet "liberal programs." So Obama has a handful more.

Call me ungrateful that he isn't Dubya. I don't friggin care. I'll vote against him in the primaries and sit out the general. He has to go!
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #124
127. No point in discussing this further.
When presented with evidence, you call items on this outstanding list of *progressive* accomplishments "pet projects". Surely, those of us who have received real benefit from these programs would disagree <raises hand>. Yes, as a matter of fact, I will call you ungrateful...

Whatever. You have made up your mind. In spite of President Obama's most impressive record of "progressive" policy advances in a generation, you choose to sit out the general election and, therefore, do your best to enable the real political enemy - teabagging republicans. Rest well.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #127
157. What does it profit you when he can legally make you DISAPPEAR?

Put you in prison, never bring you up on charges, torture you and have you killed. And he could do it to me, and anybody he thinks is bad news. That is the authority he has happily grabbed for himself now. He can legally have you murdered. His excuse about Bradley Manning is nothing short of stomach-turning.

I know, but he's a nice guy and wouldn't do it. I noticed you didn't deny at all what I said. Are you happy with the state of affairs I described? Really? If you lived in any other country with a dictator with those powers, would you want to stay there?

Richard Nixon, I'll remind you, gave us some of the most liberal programs in history. And I'll agree, Obama is probably the most "liberal" President since Nixon, which is actually pitiful if you think about it. With Nixon, at least, Liberals weren't fooled.

I'd like to be grateful to him, really, but basic rights come first and supersede anything else.

You have severely taken your eye off the ball.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #62
170. The right-wing fascist part may have some truth. But Obama is definitely not a socialist.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Mr. President thank you for making clear to many who are watching
that our countries laws are stuck in the ditch with the rest of the working class people....
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GeorgiaPeach Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. +1
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. And you sir, are driving the car.
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PatrynXX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
91. without wheels.... n/t
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
38. +2
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
54. we need a candidate for president willing to stand up to the military industrial complex
and the thugs behind the curtains. Obama has been a HUGE disappointment. :mad:
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
87. +1
i will vote for ANYONE in the Dem primary in 2012 who will do that.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #54
130. Unfortunately I do not think we will ever find one. Too dangerous. nt
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hey, Obama asked the lawyers if the torture was OK and they said it was so he's cool with it.
:shrug:

How could one possibly ask more of their president?

PB
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Fuddnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. Who'd he ask? John Yoo?
Alberto Gonzales?
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joentokyo Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
79. Let me know when you find one. I would like to buy a life insurance policy on that
person. Seriously, I think it would take a lot more than finding the right candidate to defeat the fascist takeover of the US.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. We've been learning THAT lesson since January 2009.
n/t.
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Poboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. Recommend
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. Meet the new boss...
Who can possibly keep defending him now? And not just defend but sing his praises? Any one who is still behind him, please imagine that he is Republican and then tell me you would still be saying the things you are about this president. Serious suggestion.

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. Whisteblower gets "resigned" for blowing whistle on the treatment of a whistleblower.
Embarrassing this administration is obviously a major crime in the eyes of our faultless leaders. Torture, war, and killing children, not so much.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. By people who said they would protect whistleblowers.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. The fine pring must say: "Except when they embarrass us."
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Acknowledgement:
I just tweeter your post to Greenwald with my addition.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
77. Remember the days when Obama promised transparency
and openness in the government. And, oh, no lobbyists in the White House.

Who else was sitting at the table with Obama when he was hashing out the Health Care Reform bill? Oh, a few members of Congress and some token doctors and nurses (who represented organizations as unofficial lobbyists).

Promises, promises.
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Cid_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
111. If he was a whistle blower perhaps....
A whistle blower brings up data tied to a specific issue... not a mass data dump in the hopes that something in there will prove sensitive.

Manning is a traitorous piece of filth and I hope he stays right where he is until about age 94.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #111
117. So basically, what you're trying to let us know is that you do not know what "whistle blower" means
hint: it does not refer, in this context, to a person actually blowing a whistle.
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Cid_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #117
131. Right...
... because that's exactly what I said.

Are you sure you replied to the correct post?
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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #111
155. The issue seems pretty specific to me.
Edited on Mon Mar-14-11 01:21 PM by blackspade
Malfeasance, corruption, and war crimes involving two wars with an icing of diplomatic double dealing on top.

I think that Pvt Manning has done us all a great service by bringing this all to light, if he is indeed the one who did it.
However, until he is indicted, tried, and convicted he is innocent.
If he is eventually convicted, I will still maintain that he did the right thing, even if he has to suffer the wrath of an embarrassed government.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Was this planned?
Crowley gets to be noble. Obama admin gets to look tough? And, if so, is that acceptable?
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
97. No, no and no.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. Well said. nt
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itsnotaboutu Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
84. If Nothing Else......
has scared the living crap out of me. This latest assault on freedom of speech, on someone who is on the inside, that's a red flag warning waving above the American flag, has done it.
I think we are in deep doo doo people.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
122. except that neither Crowley nor Manning is a whistleblower
Crowley merely voiced an opinion contrary to what the administration would like. That's not whistleblowing.

Sorry to say, Manning isn't a whistleblower either. Had he taken only those documents that revealed crimes or other serious wrongdoing and took them for the purpose of exposing such crimes or other serious wrongdoing than he would be. But that's not what he did nor why he did it. Though some of the documetns might have revealed crimes or other serious wrongdoing most of them certainly don't, and he doesn't even know himself what the documents that he took contained, so he couldn't have taken them in order to whistleblow their contents. Only he really knows why he took them and gave them to Wikileaks.


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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #122
135. And, we and the rest of the world are the beneficiaries of his "crime".
Unless you think that knowing what your government does in a (alleged) democracy is a crime.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #135
136. for just some "embarrassing" documents?
Make up your mind, folks.

No, I don't think anyone is better off for knowing what the docs contained, and no I don't believe the public should know absolutely everything the government is doing because that public includes the world wide public. Diplomats should be able to do their jobs without having to worry about every little thing they say being absorbed by the entire world.

It's not a "crime" it is a crime. Stealing classified documents is a crime. That's why the fool was arrested and why he's sitting in prison.

He's not a whistleblower, he's an idiot thief, and his thievery and Wikileaks stupidity in not being careful of protecting the identies of innocents DID get some people killed.


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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #136
137. You got the names of the people killed because of the documents?
As many as were murdered in Iraq by the helicopter crew that went scot free?
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #137
147. that's what matters to you?
A death toll scoreboard? "Nah nah! We killed less people than youuuuu!"

That's all you have to say? Manning is a poor whistleblowing tortured divine hero because he was stupid and criminal enough to steal classified documents that he had no fucking idea what they contained and turned them over to Wikileaks who was too fucking stupid to even attempt to protect innocent people identified in them who were later hunted down and killed???

Jeebus. Done with you.


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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #147
150. LOL! "..hunted down and killed" Who? When? Where?
You're the one who brought up the empty "got people killed" B.S.
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #122
149. You're wrong
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27624.h...
"We must bear in mind, of course, that Manning allegedly leaked military files because he, according to unverified internet chat logs, saw wrongdoing and had no other course of action because his superiors told him they "didn't want to hear any of it". He did not want to be complicit in war crimes, and felt that by leaking the files he could prompt "worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms"."

And yes this info is from unverified chat logs.
http://firedoglake.com/merged-manning-lamo-chat-logs /
But how are we to get anything verified when he is kept incommunicado? And why else would he release information like this? Do you have any other reason to give? Do you think he was just crazy? Do you think he was a secret Islamic terror sympathizer? A 23 year old American private? Please tell us your alternate theory of his motivation, I'd like to hear.



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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. Another Whistleblower punished for doing his/her job.
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. Anybody remember the whistleblower Sibel Edmonds?
I have often wondered at how much of what she testified to in her depositon has been verified and vindicated in the Wikileaks documents?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Perhaps ...
we should count our blessings that she is still alive --

she could be another Manning at this point --

an that's the message of the Manning-torture for all of us --

don't disobey your rulers!!

Transparency?

I want a RECALL!!

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tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #35
128. And, I note, still alive and not tortured by the Bush regime. Pretty sad statement
when you look at what's happening to Manning under this Democratic....regime.


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dougolat Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
46. Sibel started the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition ....
...and runs Boiling Frogs Post.
like many who brought embarrassing testimony to the 911 Commission she was gagged by having her information "Classified"
If the excuse for two wars, the Patriot Act, and all the mayhem inflicted on ourselves and the Mid-East were to finally and actually be examined, much of the information is right there, carefully tucked away.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
73. she is intel and limited hangout artist
9/11 was much worse than what she would ever say
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #73
141. Interesting idea -- especially running a reverse WikiLeaks if I understood you
correctly --

Hi spooked911 --

how are you?

Been reading some stuff on JFK but so much going on hard to get into 9/11 forum

these days? Was just re-reading that ACLU is still fighting for the Nixon testimony

on Watergate which he gave over two day period to a Grand Jury -- they travelled to

CA to hear his testimony!

And, Jim Marrs says that there were always duplicates made of the tapes by the Secret

Service!!

:)

Almost missed your post and hope you see this!

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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #141
178. Hi D&P!
Yeah, lots going on these days.

I just meant that Sibel Edmonds is more of a gatekeeper than a whistleblower. And she used to work for the FBI, so probably intel.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. U-S-A! U-S-A!!
Crowley should've known that questioning torture is un-American.
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. Questioning torture is the new DADT
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. Statements
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
78. Crowley's statement is excellent. Clinton's is typical Clinton.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
83. The WH demanded Crowley's resignation.
What's your point in printing Hillary's statement?

:eyes:
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. We need a P.J. Crowley avatar.
Solidarity!
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
42. is there a Manning avatar?
that would be good also..
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. It has become extremely difficult for me to imagine supporting Obama in the next election
The reversals of policy between the Obama campaign and administration are breathtaking. In short, we were lied to everday on the campaign.

Cheers!
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. +1
i don't see how i could at this point.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
63. Hubby and I have also decided that we can no longer support him.
Very, very done with the hugely disappointing jerk.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
102. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
129. A sad and disgusted +1. nt
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
19. This is what happens when you speak the truth under the Obama admin
so much for Obama's clear and transparent government. At least Crowley isn't getting fucked over like Manning is though - he's just not allowed to talk about it. Ugh. The Dem primaries for 2012 can't come soon enough.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
41.  Candidate Obama: "I want people who are continually pushing me out of my comfort zone."
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 04:39 PM by KoKo
That was then...This is now...sigh...

UPDATE: Remember when the Bush administration punished Gen. Eric Shinseki for his public (and prescient) dissent on the Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz plan for Iraq, and all good Democrats thought that was so awful, such a terrible sign of the administration's refusal to tolerate any open debate? And then there was that time when Bush fired his White House economic adviser, Lawrence Lindsey, for publicly suggesting that the Iraq War might cost $100 billion, prompting similar cries of outrage from Democrats about how the GOP crushes internal debate and dissent. Obama's conduct seems quite far from the time during the campaign when Obama-fawning journalists like Time's Joe Klein were hailing him for wanting a "team of rivals", and Obama was saying things like this: "I don't want to have people who just agree with me. I want people who are continually pushing me out of my comfort zone."

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/...
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
70. Indeed
the contrast between candidate Obama and president Obama is pretty much horrifying. I - and many others - feel like he lied to get my vote. And it worked. Once. It won't work again.
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #41
176. It was only for 'political gains' like the 'we will end this war' lie was.
Oh well.

At least mc$ame isn't going crazy daily, bombing Iran and most of the rest of the Middle East...

Still...

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Ken Murray Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
103. another democrat for repubs!
Great, the best way to get a republican elected is to mount a huge campaign against Obama.

Applause, applause.

With any luck, you can get a bunch of those liberal judges off the Supreme Court for, say, 30 years, as we descend into the dark ages.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #103
109. vote for shit or else you'll get....shit
I am STOKED to VOTE!!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #103
112. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #103
132. The "lesser of two evils" -
is still evil. Now, moreso than ever. :(
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #103
177. :facepalm: (Not that crap again.)
NEWSFLASH: There's no such thing like 'a huge campaign against Obama' anywhere.

No chance for a serious primary from the left, sadly...
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savannah43 Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
134. This is what happens when you exercise your 1st
Edited on Mon Mar-14-11 11:09 AM by savannah43
Amendment right to free speech. Doesn't "free" mean you don't pay? (Still love you, Abbie).
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
21. Excuse me but I call
BULLSHIT! I voted for THIS? :mad:
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BOHICA12 Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
76. Apparently we did! nt
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
86. We were all duped
lied to - betrayed - whatever you want to call it.

If you look purely at Obama's economic policies you will see they almost 100% fall in line with the Republican world view. Is Obama actually a republican with slight liberal social leanings? I can't answer that but I can say this is indeed NOT what I voted for, and I sure as hell won't be voting for it in 2012. :grr: :mad:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #86
113. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. How purge-y of the administration.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
25. Don't ya just love the transparency of this administration? A huge change from the Bush regime!

:sarcasm:
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
26. No doubt Crowley knew when he made that statements that he was going to
reap the whirlwind, but still he made it. Give Crowley the Congressional Medal of Freedom for his courage to speak the truth.

The more I see of President Obama's fascist leanings the more I wonder what the fuck the Nobel Committee was smoking when they decided to give him the Peace Prize.


Rec.

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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. What they were smokin' was
the Peace Pipe.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yes, he probably knew he was going to reap the whirlwind,
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 02:35 PM by Raksha
but in the process he called out this administration and forced it to reveal itself for exactly what it is: collaborators in treason. Obama aided and abetted Bush's war crimes, at first as an accessory after the fact but now as an active criminal himself.
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Fuddnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. I think they ran out of them.
Gave them all to Bushes and Kissingers and stuff.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
65. "Fascist leanings"!
Just like I said above!

Oy. :eyes:
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #65
114. he's not leaning.
he's there.
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Dawson Leery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
69. What were they thinking when they gave the Nobel to
Churchill and snubbed Gandhi?
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
31. K & R
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
32. Wow. We appear to be witnessing the slow but steady return to the Bush years....
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 02:50 PM by BrklynLiberal
What a revolting development this is....
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. Steady and not so slow.
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
51. That was my thought.
Sickening trail of events.
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Ken Murray Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:21 AM
Original message
promises kept
Yep, I'm sure you really would prefer that these 134 promises kept had not happened with McCain.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obamet...
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
33. how sad this continues to be with each new action...
I believe Crowley understood the ramifications, too. This is not what I wanted to wake up & read.

Crowley should not be forced out for stating how shameful abuse is! My God!

How disappointing to see this president continue Guantanamo, allow this to happen to PFC Manning, and of course, the Afghanistan war.

Manning did what a man of conscience does when he sees a vast abuse of power that resulted in heinous killings. He knew the military didn't care because they were behind it fully. WE care, and sadly, our president, who we voted for to represent us, appears to believe it should be good enough for us that he asked if what they're doing to Manning is within military guidelines (and that makes it OK Mr President, because they said it is?).

Bradley, make it through the darkness, for your fight is right!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Deleted message
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #43
64. +1000.
To vote again for this total freakin' hypocrite would be to give tacit support for his bullshit.
I can not do so.
I will write in Mickey Mouse or something before I vote for the POS.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #43
66. Hey there! Welcome to DU!
:hi:
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BlackHoleSon Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
59. He doesn't just represent us
He has a responsibility to represent all Americans, like those who believe in torture, suppression, spying on American citizens, endless war.
The Americans who believe in "Compromise" and "Shared Sacrifice."
See what a great president he really is?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
34. If we want JUSTICE and transparency in America -- real democracy, obviously
we should be following those like P. J. Crowley who have acted out of conscience

and humane concern for Manning and against the robotic brutality of our MIC and

the president who supports it!!

Shocking!!

But gives us a clear picture of who we should trust and who not to trust!!

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
36. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
37. There's a terrible dull aching pain deep in my gut, tears rolling...
disappointment is not even the word I would use to describe the level of sorrow and horror I feel towards the one that I voted for, (with awareness that he wasn't actually a progressive).. it's the same feeling of severe betrayal from a close family member or friend or lover.

There simply are no words...

I won't forgive it & won't forget it.

No more illusions. Never Again.




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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #37
72. I'm so sorry...I'm already over the worst of that sense of betrayal,
so it doesn't hurt quite as much. This is just further confirmation of it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
40. Deleted message
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girl_interrupted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
47. K&R
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
48. The Who said it....
something about new boss just like the old boss.

Sickening.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
49. Deleted message
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Yurovsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #49
71. BHO is missing a HUGE teachable moment....
about the importance of whistleblowers in an open Democratic nation. Unfortunately, he's AWOL in his duties as CinC, in which HE is in charge of the Pentagon and HE tells them what is acceptable and (in PFC Manning's case) UNACCEPTABLE. This American hero is being tortured, for being a whistleblower and, undoubtedly, for being gay (clear payback for the generals being overruled on DADT).

One of the criticisms of the rightwingnutjobs that I actually might agree with is BHO's lack of leadership. Here is a perfect opportunity for him to LEAD, to show Americans that TRUTH means something, that we, as a society, embrace OPEN and TRANSPARENT government, and that the military works for the citizens of this country and WILL NEVER TORTURE ON OUR BEHALF.

Instead, BHO has opted to let the skinheads in the Pentagon torture a young man who risked his liberty to defend the constitution that he pledged an oath to protect.

Words cannot express how disappointed I am with President Obama. I am relatively certain that no one within the Democratic party will challenge him in 2012, and the repugs will almost as certainly nominate someone so overtly crazy that BHO will win re-election, thus validating BHO's behavior (and aforementioned failure to lead in a manner consistent with progressive ideals). I never thought "winning" (sorry, Charlie) could feel so much like losing...

I need a drink... :beer:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
50. sorry, but Obama is not very smart
he has made one bad decision after the other politically. It really makes one wonder if he really is this stupid or just completely corrupt.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Just completely corrupt. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #50
61. Deleted message
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
52. POLICE STATE. K&R n/t
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
53. Obama shoud have been the one to say what Crowley stated...sad. n/t
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. DUzy!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
56. K&R!
:kick:
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radhika Donating Member (563 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
57. So Obama does have a SPINE!
He is a fearless advocate whenever anyone criticizes the war machine or bankers.
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. the war machine and bankers...

...are not part of the so-called, "shared sacrifices we must make" or however he says it.

---
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. His line in the sand has been clear since around 2005.
It's where the rest of our lines are drawn that's the problem.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #57
75. I assume you mean he advocates for the banksters and war mongerers?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
68. Deleted message
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
74. just freaking ridiculous
I just can't see how Obama is better than Bush at this point.
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Tripod Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
80. k&r
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
81. Deleted message
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. I did, too. Great feeling.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #82
89. Yep, it is.
I only help now the campaigns of those candidates who I know personally. The DNC can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

Here's more on Crowley from CNN:

Crowley is highly respected on foreign policy matters, dating back to his time as National Security Council spokesman under then-President Bill Clinton. He has been the Obama administration's public face on many international stories as the daily briefer at the State Department for Secretary Hillary Clinton.

But he has not had a completely smooth relationship with officials in the Obama White House, and eyebrows were raised several months ago when White House aide Mike Hammer was sent over to the State Department to serve as Crowley's deputy.

A senior White House official stressed that Crowley's exit was in the works for months and said the MIT incident only "hastened that departure."

------

A little-known factor in Crowley's comments about Manning was revealed Saturday by April Ryan, a White House correspondent for American Urban Radio who covered Crowley in the Clinton White House.

Ryan wrote on Twitter that Crowley "dislikes treatment of prisoners as his father was a Prisoner of War."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/13/state-d...

The last portion angers me even more. To the petty small minds at the WH: Rot in hell!!!!

Bunch of weasels.....

x(
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #89
95. Thanks.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #89
152. OMG...no wonder Crowley had to speak out about Manning.
Thanks for posting that.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #152
165. You're welcome.
:-)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #81
90. Deleted message
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. After the arm twisting, backstabbing and down right low behavior of some in the leadership in 2008,
I decided that I was not going to be a member of the Democratic party anymore. The leadership made me sick and what was made public is not even the half of it. After all the years of criticizing Republicans, I came to the realization that there's very little difference in the way that both sides comport themselves.

:(
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. I sadly agree
with your assessment of the situation. :(
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #92
99. Deleted message
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. And Obama was qualified to be president?
Please........

:eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
85. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
94. According to Manning's father, Bradley is not being mistreated
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/03/13/brian-manning-t... /

Interesting interview. Confusing fact situation. I'm not sure who to believe so I'm not picking sides.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. Saw that interview when it first came out a few days ago.
Manning's father is former military. Thinks there is never an excuse to leak classified info.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #98
143. So you're suggesting that being military surpasses being a father?
Okay then.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #143
153. But, we don't know what Manning's relationship has been with his father.
His father may feel what his son did was wrong and like some in the military feel harsh treatment is what his son deserves. There may be hostilities in the relationship where the father and son have never gotten along. The father could have been pressured to say what he said for other reasons. We just can't know. But, I doubt that others who have visited him would be making up lies about his treatment and that P.J. Crowley didn't know something bad was going on there for him to make his statement and then be fired for speaking out.

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #143
156. No.
I'm not. It's a factor and it depends on the person, but I would not use the word surpasses. That's your word.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #156
169. You just said as though to explain all things ....
And to imply that the father is some either lying, or grazing over the issue lightly---that because he was military he might not point out discrepancies if he saw it. That's not a factor, that's your bloody conjecturing to justify you're cause. By doing so you malign the father in a very suggestive way. Then you try to wash it away with a very vague, "it's a factor" <---Factor of what. Can you pass me some psychiatrict or medical studies which show being in the military would color what a father would see if his son was hurt or not.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #169
171. Actually, I was basing it on my own relationship with my father who was in the military.
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 02:02 AM by Hissyspit
And a staunch right-winger. I was making the point that these relationships are complex, as I pointed out in the original post.

I am not sure what "cause" you are talking about.
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Ken Murray Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #94
105. Wow!
Lets see, the family of the accused, AND the progressive liberal gov't tells you something, and

....YOU can't decide.

Let me know how those Repubs work out for ya! :)
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #105
108. I agree
and I was not being completely honest. For now I have picked a side. I think the available evidence at this point in time is insufficient to believe he is being mistreated.

I said I was not picking a side because I'm chicken shit and you were right to call me on it. The ppl on this board seem clearly in the FDL, Glenn Greenwald "they are torturing him" camp and I'm pretty damned close to calling BS.

I'm losing my respect for Glenn, lost it long ago for FDL.

(and we all know how the GOP is working out for us in places like Mich and Wis these last few weeks. I've been all but driven off this board in support of dems and Obama.)

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #108
121. Actually it's much more nuanced than that.
And since when do we have a "progressive, liberal govt?"
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #108
139. That's not the case. Manning's father has absolutely objected.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #94
115. Ya! But who cares what he said!
We're much more interested in getting all worked up over what some random, angry, ill-intentioned blogger tells us.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #115
118. Apparently, you do not care about what he said either
Edited on Mon Mar-14-11 05:22 AM by liberation
Seriously, have you even bothered to read the transcript?

And since when is Glenn Greenwald a "random, angry, ill-intentioned blogger?"

LOL.
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Cowpunk Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #118
142. The father says Manning keeps telling him he's fine
I kind of got the impression from Manning's father that he's in denial. His words reminded me of Chris Carter's character in "American Beauty", the ex-marine.

And do you really need to ask that second question?
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #115
126. The faith that Obama claims is his reason for opposing equlity
for all demands that he visit the prisoner himself. The founder of that faith, the teacher Jesus said that he himself is the prisoner, that the treatment given prisoners is treatment given to him personally. Jesus said that on judgment day, he'll ask people why they did not visit him in prison, and they will say 'when were you in prison' and he will say 'I am Bradley Manning and I don't know you'.
Yet, according to Obama, it is fine to ask some lawyer if the treatment is legal, not bother to take the drive himself, take the word of flacks and hacks. He also makes a big stink about Jesus opposing civil rights, which Jesus did not, and he claims that Jesus wants public prayers and oaths before God starring Rick Warren, when Jesus said only hypocrites pray in public, and that all oaths come from evil.
Obama's 'I asked' response was a slap in the face of his 'messiah's' teachings. Face it, JD, we all know what the Book says, and it says nothing against me, plenty in favor of better treatment for Manning, and Obama just plays selective quotation games when he wants to shit on the rights of someone while claiming to be Big Jesus Man.
Tell me, do you think religious hypocrisy is a positive sign in a person in general? Do you find it to be appealing in a person who is not the President?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #115
140. Do you care what he said? Video:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
96. kr
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
101. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #101
104. Function not data.
Edited on Mon Mar-14-11 01:47 AM by RandomThoughts
if you don't like what your boss is doing, and rather than discussing it with him, or quitting the job....you go out in front of the press, IN YOUR BOSSES NAME, and on your bosses time, and publically disagree with your boss



Really interesting statement, then the 'boss' has to try and make an example out of you. However, what if the 'boss' is wrong. Then the boss needs to accommodate your position.


As I said before, if you go against authority, you better be right.


And I am still due beer and travel money and many experiences.


Side note, when you see injustice, and try to find an explanation for it, you either learn why you were wrong, or that something that was saying it is authority is not. That is what happened in my case. Although I had some good things in life, and made my share of mistakes. I realized the injustice in many places in the world should be improved.

I also learned that the things that tried to use smear and fear, did it for unjust reason. Although I know they have apologized, so expect the correction that is due soon.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
106. 11th Dimensional Chess: Obama v Bush - Both win, the loser is the American public
I think I finally have the Obama Vulcan Chess game figured out - it's not Obama versus the Right (or Bluedog Dems vs GOP), it's them versus us, and we'll lost any way they play it, because they don't even let us in the game.

So, what do we do? Stop playing the game by their rules.

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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #106
119. Well, peons are the first to go when it comes to defend the royal pieces, regardless of dimensions
Chess being what it is...
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
107. K&R
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 04:40 AM
Response to Original message
110. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Casandia Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
123. So many deleted comments!
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Cowpunk Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #123
144. It's because the Obama loyalists are getting hammered NT
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
125. Same as it ever was. nt
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Clear Blue Sky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
133. Obama morphing into Bush?
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #133
138. The morphing has already happened. Meet Geo W. Obama! n/t
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
145. thank you PJ for calling this abuse out
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
146. Deleted messages will soon outnumber other posters
sad testimony for the President and his supporters.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
148. I'm sick of Obama. He keeps bad people on and fires good people JUST LIKE BUSH. (nt)
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
151. OH THE OUTRAGE !!
Give me a break, Obama is not complicit in anything except announcing that the military is doing what is necessary to keep pvt manning safe.

Imagine if Manning somehow managed to kill himself, many here would be up in arms that it was either a conspiracy to shut him up or that the military and Obama didn't do enough to keep him safe....

So nothing more to see here folks move along peacefully, and don't forget go to the polls on NOV 6th 2012 and vote for the person that you think will stick to your standards and principles.... LOL no doubt you will all be rushing to re-elect President Obama at that point so ENOUGH !!...

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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #151
154. That tired memo again?
There is no evidence of suicidal behavior on Manning's part.
He has said it, his lawyers have said it, and the prison psychologist has said it.

I'll tell you what would drive someone crazy though:
lack of exercize;
sleep deprivation;
lack of reading material;
lack of contact with people;
being cooped up in a concrete box for 23 hrs a day;
forced nudity;
etc....






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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #154
158. Yep you would be one of the first ones
To claim some kind of conspiracy if he wound up dead....Sit down and go back to coloring... and Let the professionals handle this...
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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. Your pitiful response says it all.
Next time cut to the chase and say, "I am a condecending enabler of prisoner abuse."



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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #159
160. AHEM...!!
Edited on Mon Mar-14-11 05:22 PM by humbled_opinion
1. You have no proof of abuse but you so directly declare it.
2. You avoid addressing any of the issues that the military used in its defense of his treatment.

Like I said, you are looking for a fight in the name of YOUR brand of justice.

The man is in prison, because he broke the law.

I would never condone any type of abusive treatment but I do believe that while he awaits trial he should be protected, even from himself... Even someone of limited thought like yourself should agree with that statement.
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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #160
161. You continued belittlement underscores the weakness of your....
arguement.

I'm not avoiding the government defense of his abuse, I'm calling it bullshit.
Abuse is abuse, and I summed up what they are doing to him in the above post.

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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. ?? Calling it BS to suite your meme is avoiding the issue...
You have no proof, unless you believe that the entire military justice system is flawed and that even under President Obama there could be torture? What proof do you have? I respect the integrity of the Military they are professionals and if there was unseemly behavior then it would be brought to light like it is every time it happens and those guilty would be held accountable. I have much proof that that is exactly how the military handles abuse situations....

Yet you continue to your making uninformed attacks on the integrity of our armed forces. If you don't respect the military then maybe you should find another country to live in, because believe it or not they are the ones that keep vigilante watch on your rights and freedoms, their jobs are hard enough and they don't need uninformed idiots making their jobs harder. Even if Manning was in a Federal Prison if he indicated a suicide watch requirement he would be treated in much the same way..

so get a grip...
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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #162
163. Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!!!
Edited on Mon Mar-14-11 07:32 PM by blackspade
Don't make me laugh so hard!

You're ping ponging all over the place!

To address your points:
"You have no proof, unless you believe that the entire military justice system is flawed and that even under President Obama there could be torture? What proof do you have?"

Given the news reports, yes, I believe the military justice system is flawed. It has been for some time, from the Abu Griabe fiasco, civilian killings in Iraq/Afghanistan, Gitmo, etc. It has all continued under Obama, so yes, torture and abuse is still a problem. Manning's abuse is just the latest chapter in this sorry saga. The proof is in the multiple news reports that have been filed over the last 8 years.

"I respect the integrity of the Military they are professionals and if there was unseemly behavior then it would be brought to light like it is every time it happens and those guilty would be held accountable. I have much proof that that is exactly how the military handles abuse situations...."

Hey, that's great that you feel that way. There are definitely thousands of professionals in the military that do their job with excellence. Unfortunately, the Manning detention does not seem to be one of those incidences. Like Gitmo, Bagram, and Abu Graibe, there are endemic problems with the military justice system and no one other than sergeants and privates have been held accountable. So I am very dubious of your claims that the military handles accountability well.

"Yet you continue to your making uninformed attacks on the integrity of our armed forces. If you don't respect the military then maybe you should find another country to live in, because believe it or not they are the ones that keep vigilante watch on your rights and freedoms, their jobs are hard enough and they don't need uninformed idiots making their jobs harder. "

I have made no attacks on the 'integrity of our armed forces'. I have pointed out a pattern of abuse that seems to have become progressively more common. The military and civilian systems all have codes of ethics. Unfortunately, many do not live up to them, be they privates, generals, senators, corporate CEOs, or the grocery store clerk. That is why there are codes of conduct to begin with. Because I am critical of the military and, by extension, the President in this case has no bearing on my respect for the military at all. Conflating criticism and lack of respect in this case is a diversion on your part and not a well thought out one. I have no need of finding 'another country to live in' because I strive to make this one a better place for my kids and my fellow citizens. I have had multiple generations of family who have served and bled in this nation's armed forces, but they are not the sole defenders of my rights and freedoms. That falls to every citizen of this nation, civilian and military.

I'll ask you this in response:
Do you think that the following are abusive to a person who has not been convicted of a crime, is not a risk to others, and who is not a risk to him/herself?
lack of exercise;
sleep deprivation;
lack of reading material;
lack of contact with people;
being cooped up in a concrete box for 23 hrs a day; and
forced nudity.







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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #163
164. OK ....
If there is abuse then it should be made public and the perps be held accountable. I with some of your list specifically;
1. Sleep Deprivation
2. denied contact with people
3. forced nudity

The others are simply a matter of being in confinement you are going to lack exercise unless you workout in your cell, reading material is not a high priority on my list and of course if you commit a crime you are going to be put in jail cell, thats the bargain, you do the crime you do the time.

His actions are treasonous, he stole classified government communications and knowingly gave them to an uncleared individual. There is no debate to that, he knew it was a crime when he committed it. That whistleblower defense crap will not hold weight, those who handle classified information are fully appraised of their responsibilities in safeguarding it and are also trained on actions that they can legally take if they feel something is against the UCMJ or the Constitution. In other words he had other options to make his voice heard, but he chose a criminal act.
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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #164
167. Then we can agree on a few things about this case.
But not others. Fair enough.
I still think, based on the available information, that he is being subject to abuse.
You don't, I get that, so we will have to see how things fall out.
I defiantly don't see his actions as treasonous, but rather heroic in the face of indifference to his concerns by his superiors.
Again, I know you don't feel the same, so we will have to see how it plays out over the next couple of years.

I have to say, I appreciate that you have made an effort to be civil in your last post. Thanks.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #160
175. The Pentagon is not denying forced nudity, sleep disruption,
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 02:20 AM by EFerrari
isolation, sensory deprivation or constant interrogation. So, yes, we have the Pentagon's word for Manning's treatment.

And the man is not in prison because he broke the law. He is in prison because he is accused of breaking the law. The small matter of due process, you know.

And, he has not been deemed to be a danger to him by any doctor. So this whole "protection" bullshit is just that.

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #158
168. "The professionals?"
:eyes:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #158
174. Like they handled Abu Graib. Check.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #151
166. at this point in time, though...haven't we heard that same thing from Obama in
different speaks for over two years and more? That's the problem. It's all starting to sound alike what he says these days. I can't even listen to him past a sentence or two these days...and I feel bad for even doing that. :-(
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #151
172. So, Manning is being abused for his own good?
How Rumsfeldian.
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MNBrewer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #172
173. Obamanian...
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Marnie Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
179. Since we know that Obama is a 1980's Moderate Republican
And as much of an international criminal as the Bushies.


I have no problem saying.

SHAME.

SHAME.

SHAME.

SHAME.
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