can someone please propose a law declaring unwanted fetuses criminals?

[unblock]

if these right-wing a**holes are going to go around trying to pass laws permitting murder of doctors (now there's a plan to contain health care costs for ya!) then i think it's about time we put some real perspective into the matter.

an unwanted fetus is a tresspasser.
an unwanted fetus is a thief.
an unwanted fetus causes physical harm.
an unwanted fetus causes emotional distress.

EVEN IF YOU CONCEDE THE RED HERRING ARGUMENT THAT A FETUS IS "HUMAN", ANY OTHER HUMAN who did the things an unwanted fetus did would clearly be recognized as a criminal, and the pregant woman would have the right to self-defense, and the government should help the pregnant woman to stop the crime-in-progress.


if they want to consider a fetus a human, FINE!

no human shall be permitted to overstay its welcome, in whole or in part, in a bodily cavity of any other human.

let those f*ckers argue against THAT!

[LiberalFighter]

1. If we don't have that law consider the consequences.

Some scumbag might invade a person's body and without the law the person is forced to feed and nurture the person.

Maybe we should force Catholic priests to perform an exorcism.

[Buzz Clik]

2. Those who consider a fetus to be a human and abortion to be murder...

... are not suggesting that as a red herring. If you really knew people who were quietly and deeply morally opposed to abortion, you'd realize that.

Unlike some very silly arguments in politics today, this one has deep, personal roots for both sides. Don't underestimate the resolve and commitment of the opposition. It would be a huge mistake.

[unblock]

4. i know a LOT of people opposed to abortion.

me among them. i think anyone in a position to have an abortion should seriously consider carrying the fetus to term, if only to put the baby up for adoption at birth. abortion is the least desireable outcome, provided the pregnant woman can tolerate any other. it should be a last resort.

the thing is, unlike anti-choicers, i believe that virtually all pregnant woman DO give serious thought to carrying the fetus to term, and should they make the agonizing decision to abort, i strongly object to the government denying them that carefully considered decision, and i believe that in virtually all cases, it IS a last resort.

if you find it inconsistent that i could oppose abortion and still write the o.p., then i think you're buying into too much of the anti-choice propaganda. no one like abortion. but it seems that anti-choicers don't appreciate just how horrible an unwanted pregnancy is, and therefore completely write off that part of the moral quandary.

in any event, even if it is immoral, the government permits immoral behavior in many areas. mere immorality is neither a necessary nor a sufficient rationale for legislation.

[ohheckyeah]

12. I don't think it's

agonizing to everyone at all. If you truly don't think that a 2 month fetus is 'life' then why would it be agonizing?

[unblock]

17. because everyone thinks of it as at least POTENTIAL "life"

and it's agonizing to think of what could otherwise be.

plus, many people fret over ANY medical procedure, even where there isn't a fetus involved ;)

[ohheckyeah]

25. Everyone?

You're privy to everyone's thoughts?

[unblock]

26. yes. yes i am : )

but seriously, i've heard all sorts of off-the-wall positions on abortion on either side, but i've never heard anyone claim that a fetus wasn't at least POTENTIAL life (absent clear medical evidence that external viability would never be impossible, such as no brain).

[Buzz Clik]

20. Your OP is completely at odds with your response to me.

Maybe it's the difference with a snarky OP with the sole purpose of garnering attention and a thoughtful reply.

Am I right?

[unblock]

27. a snarky op has many purposes; garnering attention is low on the list:)

i'll agree that the "thoughtful reply" adds nuance to my position that is absent from the o.p.

but i disagree that they're completely at odds.

the difference is primarily in the government's role in the matter. one can be opposed to abortion and still think the government should not make it illegal. this is at the heart of the "safe, legal, and rare" position.

[leftstreet]

5. It's a 'silly argument' to suggest anyone has rights over another's body

That is the basis of anti-choice rhetoric

It's irrelevant if the desire for control of another's body or choices is "deeply personal"

In fact, it's downright creepy

[Buzz Clik]

21. I agree. That's one of the reasons why I'm pro-choice.

Too many pro-choice people don't understand that a lot of thoughtful, intelligent prolifers consider abortion to be murder. Under those circumstances, abortion is, in your words, the invasion of one body (the fetus) by another (the mother and doctor).

[mmonk]

23. I consider a fetus human but I support abortion rights.

I do not think a human fetus in the gestational stage of human development should have rights guaranteed by a developed human because it has not yet reached a developed human life stage. I try and apply reason to human decisions.

[Buzz Clik]

24. There are a lot of us out there.

(I still don't understand the OP.)

[LARED]

3. A question

If you examined the DNA of a fetus, what do you think it would tell you?

[unblock]

7. i suppose the same thing examination of a corpse's dna would tell me.

that it's genetically homo sapiens sapiens.

if a human were carrying such a fetus, it would perhaps come as a bit of a relief to know that it wasn't a fox or a quail.
but it would hardly represent the sole moral element of the equation. moral issues involving humans depend as well on whether or not the human is alive, of what age, where they are, what they are doing, and on and on.

[LARED]

19. Great, so you would agree that

a corpse is (or was) a human and that a fetus is a human. Hence the argument that a fetus is a human is not a red herring.

[unblock]

29. i'm not sure you understand what a "red herring" is.

i'm not saying it's false to claim that a fetus is human. i'm saying that it doesn't truly shed much light on the full ethical questions, or at a minimum, it certainly doesn't end them.

by way of analogy, if a burglar is in my home, and we're having a discussion about self-defense, the fact that the burglar is human isn't really of great import. or, at a minimum, it doesn't end the ethical questions. yes, the burglar is human. but how much violence i can ethically act with depends on many other factors, including but not limited to how much violence is needed to stop the crime, whether or not i've tried less violent solutions, whether or not life and limb is in peril, and so on.

the burglar analogy doesn't map perfectly to abortion, but they share in common the fact that the "human"-ness of the actors is kinda beside the point.

[LARED]

I understand what a red herring is and is not

The problem is you want to sweep away the ethical importance of the question is a fetus human or not. I believe the answer to that question must be resolved before one can have an honest discussion about abortion.

Also as you pointed out the burglar is not a perfect analogy. I don't think it is even applicable to the abortion question. A burglar is by definition trespassing illegally in your home. You have a moral duty to protect your property and family from that trespasser. You also have a moral and ethical (as well as legal) duty to avoid killing the burglar if possible while protecting yourself.

A fetus is not a trespasser (except for very limited circumstances). The fetus was the result of two people making a decision to have sex. Choices sometimes have unintentded consequences.

[unblock]

33. the point is that dna doesn't tell you if it's human in the ethical sense, only in the genetic sense

[LARED]

34. DNA defines if it's human biologically

Frankly I don't know what you mean to be human in an ethical sense. The DNA tells you if it's human or it's not. There is no in-between as far as I know. Please explain.

Are perhaps trying to make a distinction between being a human and being a person.

[unblock]

35. yes, i think it's fair to say "person" == "human in the ethical sense"

[LARED]

36. Would it be fair to say

you agree a fetus is a human and is not trespassing?

[unblock]

37. a fetus is genetically human (opinions vary as to whether or not a "person")

and if it is unwanted, then my view is that the woman carrying it has the right to remove it.
i'm not a lawyer, so i don't know if intent is needed for "tresspassing". i presume the police wouldn't care how you arrived on someone else's property, they would remove you regardless of whether you got there of your own volition or not.

[Mojeoux]

6. An unwanted fetus goes straight back to the arms of God,

and gets another chance. It is not a human, the mother is the human and the loving God loves her just as much.

As a kid in Catholic school, I was taught that the aborted souls went to "Limbo." Now the Pope says there is no "Limbo."

The loving Father/Mother God did not create some trick booby-trapped existence for Women.

Any-time anyone wants to play the "religion" card in this debate, remember Women are Loved as MUCH as Men.

[unblock]

8. wait, you god sounds like a loving god. what bible do YOU read??

certainly not the bible i hear so much about for right-wing politicos....

[Mojeoux]

9. Well, in the New Testement, there's this guy called Jesus, and

I don't get why fundamentalists call themselves Christians.

[Zebedeo]

10. And after the fetus is born

and living in the mother's house, if she becomes unwanted is she still a thief and a trespasser and deserving of the death penalty? After all, she is thieving formula and is overstaying her welcome.

[unblock]

11. but after birth there are many remedies other than the "death penalty".

the moral (and legal) equation changes dramatically when there are other practical options available.

[Zebedeo]

14. Well, some form of punishment

certainly is in order for the criminal infants, wouldn't you agree??

[unblock]

16. like eviction, sure. that's what happens now, only they call it giving up for adoption.

the point of the o.p. is that this is certainly no more ludicrous than the death penalty for doctors who perform procedures some people think should never be performed under any circumstances.

[Zebedeo]

18. eviction?

Since when is eviction a punishment for a crime such as theft?

And can you really justify the extreme variance in penalties - death for some trespassers, and mere eviction for others? May the babies in the womb present the defense (through legal counsel and a guardian ad litem, of course) of necessity before they are put to death by a squeeze of your tongs? Their defense might be that they did not enter the womb voluntarily, but found themselves there as the result of the actions of their landlady.

[unblock]

30. actually eviction isn't "punishment" but the stopping of a crime

or other unsafe/improper situation.

generally speaking, innocents aren't "punished", but in a number of circumstances, things are imposed on them. if you are drugged and placed on someone else's property, you still have no right to remain there and the police would be acting properly to remove you from the premises, even if you've committed no crime due to the lack of malicious intent.

[customerserviceguy]

13. Can you show criminal intent? n/t

[kenny blankenship]

15. Loitering. A charge invented so they don't have to prove intent.

Move along there.

[Ichingcarpenter]

22. Bill hicks on pro life people and abortion

I, ah...this abortion issue in the States is dividing the country right in half. You know, and even amongst my friends - we're all highly intelligent - they're totally divided on the issue of abortion. Totally divided. Some of my friends think these pro-life people are just annoying idiots. Other of my friends think these pro-life people are evil fucks. How are we gonna have a consensus? I'm torn. I try and take the broad view and think of them as evil, annoying fucks.



I'm not a girl, I'm a guy you know? But at the same time, I tell ya how you can solve this abortion issue right now. Ready? Those unwanted babies that single moms leave in alleys and in dumpsters? Leave about 12 of those on the steps of The Supreme Court. This is over. Like that. "You guys said we had to have them? Then you guys...FUCKING RAISE 'EM." "Raise 'em then, you fucking fucking raise 'em. YOU raise 'em. You said I had to have it? Then it's yours. Fuck. It's yours..Take it"

[unblock]

31. i do miss him!

[JoePhilly]

28. Could claim they are illegal aliens.

I mean I saw the movie Aliens, and that thing grows inside you and then bursts out!!!

Just because your border defense failed, and one git through, doesn't mean you have to let it stay.

Simple right wing logic.

[DU GrovelBot]

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