Lara Logan: Was She Actually Raped?

[dkf]

​Was Lara Logan raped by the insane mob in Cairo last Friday? Most media are shirking their jobs by a careful tiptoe around that key question. Ask women (or men), and they'll tell you that actual rape is worse than a mauling, even if the beating includes vicious groping. Exactly how much of a sexual assault was it? That matters. If it was actual rape, then the outrage needs to be ratcheted up. Among those not afraid of addressing the question is the New York Post, whose

Clemente Lisi reports today:

The separation and assault lasted for roughly 20 to 30 minutes, said a person familiar with the matter, who added that it was "not a rape."
Was it or not? If it was, that would take this horrific act way beyond the pale. Despite what CBS and her family and the pusillanimous media say, the need to know trumps privacy.

Judging by the plucky and blunt Logan's frank talk on Jon Stewart's Daily Show and other venues, she will eventually tell us the details.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/02/lara_logan_was.php

[hlthe2b]

1. I find this level of speculation really unseemly at the very least...

and fairly disgusting, in general. I frankly don't think it is anyone's business, but for those Lara chooses to share with.

[sabrina 1]

4. In a way, I agree. If she was actually raped,

I can imagine not wanting to talk about it at all, nor should she. But, there is a difference between actual rape and an assault by a mob, horrific enough in itself.

The problem with everything being called rape, is that it diminishes the horror of what true rape is.

I wish her network had remained silent about it until she was in a position to speak about it herself, if she wanted to.

Sexual assault on women in Egypt by the police especially, has been rampant. And during the revolution many women were beaten and assaulted until the protestors took control of the square and set up their own security system. I think that is why we saw so many women there AFTER the initial battles. They felt safer once Mubarak's thugs were out of the way.

[Tunkamerica]

8. and the authorities if crimes were committed

[tishaLA]

2. Seriously, how the fuck does it really matter?

Does it make it somehow better that she was sexually assaulted and beaten if there wasn't penetration? Or better yet: would the stupid author at the Voice feel it was somehow different if she had been anally instead of vaginally penetrated? What kind of perverse motherfuckers worry about these kinds of things anyhow? Isn't sexual assault and beating no longer enough?

[dkf]

5. I posted this because people are talking about it but not really saying what happened.

And then they are putting the words "sexual assault" in quotes like it wasn't really one.

This is appalling either way. Maybe it shouldn't color my views of what happened in Egypt but it is.

[Electric Monk]

10. You want to hear her say "and then he", "and then they", "but I couldn't" etc?

I don't think she'd make this up, and I'm ok not knowing all the little details.

ibtl

[dkf]

12. Rape is included in the category of sexual assault but not all sexual assaults are

Rape.

[Electric Monk]

13. Sure, but so what? Why are the particulars of this particular incident any of your or my business?

edit: If she feels it would help her get over it to talk about it, then all the power to her. I'm saying she shouldn't be pressured to do anything public until she is ready.

[dkf]

15. It's kind of making me sick thinking of it as a celebration.

But that is me.

[hlthe2b]

16. Thinking of WHAT as a celebration?

Can you actually be suggesting that these few horrid thugs were consistent with the hundreds of thousands celebrating their first signs of liberty in Tahrir Square? Really? These goons were somehow characteristic of the celebrations? Really?

[JI7]

25. women are sexually abused in every country by all races/cultures/religions etc

every day.

and it was egyptian women and egyptian soldiers who helped her.

i don't know what you are trying to do here but after your threads on the islamic center in ny........

[blondeatlast]

50. +1 re: the Islamic center threads. nt

[Electric Monk]

I'd missed those, until I did a little searching. I now see a clear pattern.

Here's one http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8888659&mesg_id=8888659

[blondeatlast]

100. Yes; and I mentioned the history in my alert.

Sadly, this thread points out that some of DU's strengths are its weaknesses, too.

[hlthe2b]

105. Remember the first thread

that blamed LL for her sexual assault (now locked) after a very large number of shocked/appalled posts? Not surprising but it seems this thread has attracted that poster back as well. :mad:

[CreekDog]

58. you keep avoiding the question you were asked --do you want to know the details of the assault?

with physical descriptions of what happened and who did what.

i asked you that, they asked you that, you won't answer.

[CreekDog]

35. what are you asking for, for her to clarify it was rape or not?

because she can do that by saying it was "rape" or it was something else.

is that enough for you?

[blondeatlast]

48. +1. nt

[hlthe2b]

11. well, those wanting to paint some horrific stererotype of Egyptians

based on this incident frustrate the hell out of me. It is so ridiculous given the level of rape, murder and violent crime in this country.

I lived/worked in Egypt and several other ME countries for several years. I traveled by myself and without fear--at least no more than I have had traveling elsewhere by myself, including in some areas of this country. As a western woman, I was not fearful and took only the ordinary precautions one would take in any large city or unfamiliar area.

Yup, some awful shit happens--everywhere. In this case, Mubarak's goons were very likely responsible. But, I would hardly judge every American by the criminal element that exists and I know better than to think most Egyptians are anything like that.

But those that insist they have a right to know every disgusting or prurient detail have a real problem, IMO.

[sabrina 1]

30. why would it affect how you feel about Egypt? These things

occur everywhere. They happen here, but mostly go unreported because they happen to poor, mostly minority women. They happen in our military.

How did you feel about the American military after the reporting of the gang rape of an innocent teenage Iraqi girl, then the murder of her father, mother and little brother, the burning of her body to try to hide the crime??

And that is only ONE example of the horrors WE have inflicted on innocents overseas.

Does that make the entire U.S. bad? It probably does to the victims of these crimes.

Egypt has had a long history of Mubarak thugs abusing women. Our government, including the current administration have been very aware of these abuses.

Women, Egyptian women were sexually assaulted and beaten DURING this revolution by Mubarak supporters and police. Where are the reports about those women btw?

But AFTER the protesters took over Tahrir Square, they set up their own security to protect women and the incidents stopped after they drove out the Mubarak thugs.

I really don't understand your comment at all.

American female soldiers have reported being raped, gang raped sometimes, by their fellow male soldiers. Where is the outrage?? Why is this one story worthy of more outrage than the daily, despicable attacks on women right here in the U.S. and in our military and under our dictator friends around the world? What makes this story different from all those other women??

We know nothing about this incident yet. There must have been witnesses since people came to her defense. She was lucky in that sense. Some women were not rescued from the criminals who attacked them.

[Shining Jack]

121. +1

[blondeatlast]

55. Who is doing that? The m$m? A DUer or two? Who? nt

[freeplessinseattle]

113. fucking A. if it was your daughter would you want all

the sordid details out there? I am sure she is less than thrilled at having the whole world know what they do know!

you are sick and there is no justification for thinking like this. Don't insult our intelligence.

[TheWraith]

20. To be fair...

There is a significant difference between, say, being gang raped, and being fondled and/or grabbed during a general beating. Both are sexual assault, but if you try to tell a gang rape victim that what they went through is the same as being grabbed sexually by a crowd, then you're going to get one HELL of an earful from them.

I'm not particularly invested in this story personally, but so long as it's a public issue, the question is going to be asked.

[blondeatlast]

47. Thank you. This is strictly a legal technicality--and I hardly

consider myself qualified to make the distinction.

[hfojvt]

87. apparently it does

otherwise why am I here reading this OP?

I think the author is wrong and that her privacy trumps the public's 'need to know' by at least ten billion light years.

But I had speculated myself that people were wrong when they insisted that the reported sexual assault was rape.

[chollybocker]

3. You'd think she would know.

[Xenotime]

66. This is very insensitive to even think about it.

[darkstar3]

6. Are we republicans now that we're finding gradiations in rape?

Is there something more egregious about "rape rape" as opposed to "rape-like"?

Perhaps this video can help explain my point...http://www.mediaite.com/tv/kristen-schaal-explains-rape-rape-to-jon-stewart/

[Codeine]

7. "the need to know trumps privacy."

No, it really does not. She was sexually assaulted -- whether or not that entailed penetrative rape is utterly immaterial.

[mfcorey1]

9. This sounds like the new rethuglican definition of rape or assault. I don't give a damn how you

define it, she was assaulted! Do you think she was faking her time in the hosptital. Leave her some dignity and not request an outline of the blow by blow action.

[dkf]

14. Maybe they ought to have left it at her being assaulted.

[greyl]

17. No, according to someone "familiar with the matter".

The separation and assault lasted for roughly 20 to 30 minutes, said a person familiar with the matter, who added that it was "not a rape." A CBS News spokesman declined to comment beyond the statement.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704409004576146661656309184.html?KEYWORDS=Lara+Logan

[Bluebear]

18. 'the need to know trumps privacy' - callous, anti-woman, heinous. nt

[Confusious]

19. The need to know trumps privacy.

Why does anyone else need to know? It's her business, and she needs to deal with it, not have it splashed everywhere.

What an ass.

[dkf]

21. I think part of the problem is that women journalists have generallly hidden these types of attacks.

It has been taboo to discuss.

[Electric Monk]

22. link? source? nt

[JI7]

24. but we are talking about it and we do know she was assaulted

[Confusious]

26. She needs to deal with it first, if it actually happened

Trying to make her some sort of martyr for the cause without respect for her mental state or privacy is just disgusting.

[suffragette]

61. So, because she has not "hidden" this report,

you want to deny her privacy and demand more details to see if this meets your definitions?

:eyes:

[dkf]

78. She is actually being lauded for talking about it.

This should not be her shame and it should not be used against women journalists to keep them out of the profession.

[blondeatlast]

92. Do you have any evidence that it has been? nt

[suffragette]

118. + 1,000

[freeplessinseattle]

114. Seriously. The most effed up quote ever n/t

[Matariki]

23. Why do you need or want to know that? You don't.

She wants her privacy. Respect it. Speculating like this is just lurid.

[eShirl]

27. so some 20-30 minute brutal sexual assaults are less rape-y than others

got it.

[REP]

28. So if she was rescued before penetration, no big deal?

If it was attempted rape, who cares? Dealt with that attitude myself after jumping out of a moving car during a kidnap/attempted rape.

[Major Hogwash]

29. We'll be told later if she was, I'm sure.

I hope she wasn't.

[Kahuna]

31. This is a terrible thread.

There's a reason that rape victims are afforded privacy in the media and the courts. We should afford that same privacy on a discussion board.

[kstewart33]

32. Moderator, delete this thread.

What an insulting, degrading piece of claptrap and a horrific invasion of a victim's privacy.

What's next? Demanding pictures of the event?

[Lucian]

36. +1

I agree. Hell, let's take it a step further and ask her to take a polygraph test. :eyes:

[demmiblue]

38. There has been some really nasty stuff posted on DU about this event.

Granted only by a few posters, but that is a few posters too many. It is sickening.

[Bragi]

39. I respectfully disagree

I think this thread is debating two difficult but important matters. 1) It's a discussion about what we know and don't know at present about an horrific assault of a journalist that is being widely reported and will likely be in the news for many weeks/moths to come, and 2) It's also a discussion about the proper words that should be used to describe different types of sexual assault.

Far as I can tell, the discussion in this thread is passionate but respectful. This board should not be a place where respectful discussion of public matters is shut down, however awful those events might be.

[seabeyond]

40. there is a feel from a few, that there is an entertainment/stimulate factor in this womans situation

very uncomfortable....

[superduperfarleft]

46. To some, this is as exciting as when Kim Kardashian released a sex tape.

Laura Logan's a fine piece of ass and all, so imaginations are running wild. :eyes:

[Lucky 13]

42. Agree 100%

Fuck this fucking post.

[treestar]

60. Why is it private to that extent? How could charges be brought

if victims did not say they were raped?

[CreekDog]

70. what charges have been brought?

tell us.

[treestar]

72. The point is they are saying it is private

But only those who chose not to make it private can have their assailants prosecuted.

[CreekDog]

74. why are you saying this? it doesn't apply here

from all we read, she didn't even want any of it to go public and only allowed CBS to make a statement because it was all going public anyway.

true to form, you take the odious position.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

73. +10000

[CreekDog]

33. would you like to see the footage or perhaps review the medical samples?

or instead would you like to think about what you're asking for (or endorsing by posting) and how ridiculous it is.

[demmiblue]

37. I wouldn't doubt it.

:puke:

[CreekDog]

34. worst OP ever

unrec.

(many of the responses to the ridiculous and offensive post are quite good, however)

[Lucky 13]

41. How is this ANY of your fucking business?

You expect an assault victim to openly tell the public how exactly she was violated? Do you have ANY idea how degrading that is?

It's shit like this that can be considered a second assault on a victim. Making them relive it. Putting her experience up for judgement by people, typically men, who weren't there.

She doesn't have to justify any fucking thing to you.

Fuck you and go to hell.

[justiceischeap]

43. From a woman's perspective: There really are no shades of grey between rape and sexual assault

Both are horrifying for the victim--and it cannot be argued that it wasn't traumatic is she was "only" sexually assaulted as opposed to raped. Not all rapes involve penetration so trying to draw a line between rape and sexual assault and how horrid one is against the other is downright stupid and insensitive.

Let's use men as an example, since they seem to want to define the "trauma." Is it any worse for a man to be jerked off against his will than being anally penetrated? Not in this woman's opinion. Unwanted sexual touch is bad no matter the degree it happens. Is it any worse for a man to touch some father's daughter's genitals than if he actually penetrated? No, it's not.

Stop trying to make Logan less of a victim because there was no penetration, it was still traumatizing for her no matter how badly some want to make it out that it wasn't.

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. I think there is a distinction, but for our purposes, they don't matter. n/t

[msanthrope]

44. I wish there was a "You Suck" valentine heart. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

45. Ugh.

"Despite what CBS and her family and the pusillanimous media say, the need to know trumps privacy."

Just ugh. Maybe it was videotaped so all of you who want to know whether it was a rape or "just" a sexual assault can review it frame-by-frame. :eyes:

[Odin2005]

49. This BS speculation is fucking disgusting and an insult to rape victims.

[StopTheNeoCons]

51. STUPID post, stupid title, join the rethugs

It's whatever SHE SAID IT WAS....end of story, THERE IS NO STORY.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. What does Whoopi Goldberg say about this one?

[blondeatlast]

53. The subject line was repulsive, then I saw who posted it

and I wasn't at all surprised.

Revolting--"the need to know trumps her privacy."

Never.

[seabeyond]

56. +1.

not surprised

[pinboy3niner]

62. +2

Reading the Lisi piece, I also had to do a double-take on the notion that we only need to ramp up our outrage if it was "actual rape." Otherwise, not so much. :puke:

This is the last place I expected to see anyone descend to Lisi's level and actually post--and endorse--those reprehensible comments.

[demmiblue]

128. +3

:puke:

[AngryAmish]

54. Do you mean rape-rape in a Whoopi sort of way?

And does it matter? No. But I do want to point out Whoopi is an idiot.

[MadHound]

57. "The need to know trumps privacy"

Geez, what sort of perverted voyeur are you, really. This post is disgusting, beyond disgusting. And frankly I'm surprised it hasn't been locked before now.

[blondeatlast]

69. I alerted over an hour ago;

I'm hoping to hell the mods are discussing and possibly looking into the OPs history here.

[CreekDog]

76. the problem with the mod system is if it's "sexist" they can't delete it if there isn't consensus

and that means that all the mods have to agree that it's sexist, or racist or whatever.

i've asked mods about this kind of thing and i asked Skinner about this a while back in ATA and the basic message is that he's not changing the rules.

if one male (or female) moderator doesn't think this thread should be locked it stays open. i don't know what the current ratio of male to female moderators here is but as i understand it, it only takes one to prevent something from being locked.

[demmiblue]

126. Thank you, CreekDog.

There seems to be a certain tone deafness here regarding insults towards women.

I, for one, appreciate your voice in this matter. Thank you.

[CreekDog]

85. I just alerted

if this goes on for too long, i will have to assume DU supports continued questioning of whether Logan was actually raped or not.

[blondeatlast]

86. It's spread to another thread, maybe two.

There's some vile speculation that this is a "Jessica Lynch" incident. I read the thread but didn't reply. This has got to stop. :puke:

[CreekDog]

89. this thread's been open since last night

there are many topics we can't discuss here.

whether this woman got raped or not.

we'll have to see if this is one of them.

[hlthe2b]

95. Honestly, if they won't lock it based on its horrendous misogyny

alone, the abhorrent prurient nature of the questions being asked-- there is also the thinly veiled Muslim bigotry here. It is clear that the poster is painting this episode as being consistent with the "animal nature" of the people of Egypt, given the comments about celebration being the inciting event.

I gave some benefit of the doubt last night, despite my horror, but the thread has only gotten worse and worse and my perception of the motivations behind some of those posts have me disgusted beyond words. I think this is a very clear example of the kind of post that the admins need to use to reconsider related policy. Uggh.

[Chorophyll]

59. What the hell???

You know, I guess it wasn't bad enough that this happened. I guess it wasn't bad enough that in the wake of the event itself, Lara Logan was subject to a tidal wave of victim-blaming the likes of which I've never seen and hope to never see again.

I expect shit like this from the right. Not from the Village Voice. Jesus. :nuke:

Women are raped all over the world in all kinds of situations. Sometimes it's a stranger, sometimes it's someone you know, sometimes it's in a mob. And rape is frequently used in the same way (or along with) torture to repress entire populations.

So this one particular woman has to prove that her rape was truly rapey??? For whose benefit?

:nuke:

[edhopper]

63. I had the same thoughts, but

I was hoping the sexual assault did not mean rape. Which would have been truly horrific. I did not post my thoughts because I feel the right to know in this case in no way trumps her privacy. And just because i have a thought doesn't mean I should share it.
She will reveal what happened if and when she decides.

[yelligilli]

64. This is the least of anything we should be asking about the attack.

[blondeatlast]

79. Perhaps you could elighten us? Maybe better than you did in the thread you started?

Nice to meet you. Did you notice the top of this page?

[yelligilli]

97. I just wonder if this could have been prevented.

Reporters don't make the decisions on what they report on and where they are, they have executives and producers making those decisions. With all of the threats specifically targeting journalists and all of the previous violence on journalists and Logan's team specifically in that exact location just days prior, was it irresponsible sending her back in there knowing that violence wasn't only possible but was probable. Nobody reports on a football game from the middle of the 50 yard line.

[blondeatlast]

101. I'm guessing you are too young to remember the Viet Nam war.

Journalists go where the story is. do you think Logan didn't know what she was getting into--she stated herself that "she needed to be there."

Your concern, however, is noted.

[yelligilli]

110. I can't even find the other thread now.

[blondeatlast]

124. Look under "My Posts." nt

[blondeatlast]

102. BTW--why haven't you returned to that thread? There's been several comments

on it.

[LanternWaste]

106. Then WWII war correspondents such as Max Hastings, Bob Capra...

"s it irresponsible sending her back in there knowing that violence wasn't only possible but was probable. Nobody reports on a football game from the middle of the 50 yard line."

Then WWII war correspondents such as Max Hastings, Bob Capra, Larry LeSueur, Ed Murrow, Richard Dimbleby, et. al. were simply being irresponsible? These guys were on the 50 yard line, some died, and others injured in bringing us their stories... but they were merely irresponsible?

[yelligilli]

112. The story is the same from the 50 yard line as it is from the sidelines

watching the 50 yard line. Could she have not given her report from a few blocks away from the square rather than right in the middle of the mob? The story is the same and perhaps this horrible attack could have been prevented. Even in wars they don't stand in the line of fire. They're behind tanks or in ditches.

[hlthe2b]

116. This is the kind of thinking that allowed the Bushies* to lie us into a war...

No, reporting from the sidelines is NOT the same as from the 50 yard line--unless you wish to blur an entire people into one big stereotype. Makes ascribing motivations based on some personal agenda or bias far more easy as well.

I hope that you are very very very young and that this explains your attiitude. If so then, perhaps with some reading and even a modicum of history review, you might come to respect those who put their lives on the line to bring US the truth. I truly hope that to be the case. :shrug:

[yelligilli]

123. I'm talking about the literal sidelines, 100 feet away, not metaphorical "sidelines"

which what I think you're referring to.

If you report from the 50 yard line you will disrupt the event you are supposed to be covering and are a participant rather than a watcher. If you report from the sideline 100 feet away, you can watch what is happening in the game and report it without affecting it's outcome.

It is more in line with the "Ethics In America" discussions with journalists on pbs. As a journalist, if you know something is going to happen, do you allow it to happen and report on it or do you infuse yourself in the story and change history?

Would she have been safer 3 blocks away from Tahrir Square rather than directly in the square in the middle of the mob? The story before the attack would have been the same.

[CreekDog]

125. it's a weird aspect of the story to fixate on

i see the utility in second-guessing everything she and her crew did, when you are 5 or 10 thousand miles away.

[Pathwalker]

65. The need to know trumps privacy? You don't NEED to know!

You just have a disgusting sick perverted interest in knowing something that is none of your damn business. Is this what DU has become?

[WilliamPitt]

67. Fail.

[supernova]

68. It's too early

to be asking that of her.

She's obviously not in a position to talk publicly about it right now. Right now, it's enough to know that she was hurt in the melee, along with hundreds of others. We who are not related to her, nor are her friends and confidentes, are not in a position to demand that she tell us.

I'm sure she will make some sort of public statement when she is ready, if ever.

The public right to know here, is not more important than her recovery right now.

And shame on Village Voice for being so shabby.

[Jamastiene]

75. I'm glad I got here in time to unrec this bullshit.

Trust me. Sexual assault is bad. It can and does (first hand experience) cause PTSD for a lot of women who have experienced it.

Sexual assault is bad. Rape is bad. Neither one of those is a fucking walk in the park.

If you want to mire yourself down in semantics about the meanings of words, go for it, but don't expect those of us who have been sexually assaulted and/or raped to take to kindly to your belittling of the trauma of that experience. When you have walked a mile in our shoes, THEN discuss which one you think is worse.

Your OP is a disgrace to see on DU. Un-rec.

[Luciferous]

77. It's really none of your fucking business if she was raped. Either way

what happened to her was terrible.

[undeterred]

80. This post is like raping her all over again.

[Desertrose]

81. :facepalm: good grief. NOYB.

I don't need to know & I seriously don't think YOU need to know. Its none of our business to know the details.

[Oilwellian]

82. the need to know trumps privacy?

This is fucking voyeurism deluxe. Disgusting post.

[seabeyond]

88. +1. nt

[Motown_Johnny]

83. Maybe respect for her privacy should be the deciding factor here

[Forkboy]

90. Not surprised in the slightest to see you post this.

[blondeatlast]

94. +1. nt

[jtown1123]

91. I am sicked by this. Does it make it any less outrageous if she wasn't penetrated?

[tekisui]

93. Ick. I'm sorry I opened this thread and read that shit.

[Beaverhausen]

96. it's not anyone's fucking business

what is going on at this site these days????

[blondeatlast]

98. In this case, it isn't DU (read the responses),

it's the poster.

There's a history.

[Cleita]

99. I don't know how else you can interpret

"a sustained sexual assault". Even if there wasn't any penetration of any orifice, it's still rape if the party was unwilling to be used sexually in any way.
Jeez! :eyes:

[gatorboy]

103. Perhaps you and Whoopi can discuss this.

[Evoman]

104. When I first read about this, it gave me such a sick feeling. Your post

made me even sicker. I was ready to come in and get banned confronting DUers about this bullshit because of the large post count....but DUers, awesome as they are, are already taking you to task. They said everything I wanted to, albeit less violently.

Seriously...I fucking SEE you.

[nashville_brook]

115. +1

[Recursion]

107. We may have an winner for "Creepiest OP Ever" here (nt)

[Blue_Tires]

108. I don't get it... Have there been any developments to give doubt

to Locan's account?

[blondeatlast]

109. I think it has more to do with the OP's world view than

anything else. There's an interesting history as has been pointed out upthread.

[freeplessinseattle]

111. OMG, so the eff what? It is traumatic either way!

God that poor woman, like it's not bad enough what happened to her now the entire world is speculating about how exactly she was violated??

What an effed up world we live in. I thought DU was above that but nothing surprises me anymore.

[seabeyond]

117. What an effed up world we live in. .... for sure, nt

[Xithras]

119. She was detained against her will for 30 minutes and sexually groped by aggressive men.

Whether or not one of them actually stuck a penis in her is irrelevant. It's disgusting to even hear the question asked.

[CreekDog]

120. couldn't have said it better

:wtf:

[Shining Jack]

122. unrec

[hulka38]

127. There's no reason

for this thread. I've thought about it a few minutes, read some requests for you to clarify and make some sense of it but it's a waste of time.

[steve2470]

129. horrible OP, unrec nt

[Dash87]

130. WTF? It's not outrageous enough on its own?

I'm sure most people can connect the dots. I don't want to think about it. This whole story makes me angry and sick. :(