Cards on the table...

[walldude]

I am a liberal. No matter who is in charge at the moment.

I stand for the little guy.
I stand for the underdog.
I stand for the working person.
I stand for the poor.
I stand for the oppressed.
I stand against war.
I stand against torture.
I stand against the rape of the lower classes to enrich the wealthy.
I stand for my planet. Not my "country", my PLANET.
I stand for love.
I stand for joy.
I stand for life.
I stand for freedom.
I stand for laughter.
I stand for music.
I stand for art.
I stand for my friends.
I stand for my family.
I stand with other liberals.

If this means I have to stand against Obama when he is supporting war then so be it.
If this means I have to stand against Obama when he is supporting torture then so be it.
If this means I have to stand against Obama when he is supporting Wall Street then so be it.

I will stand with Obama when he acts like a liberal and I will stand against him when he doesn't. The people who expect liberals to change their entire life's philosophy because a Democrat is in office, well, sorry, not going to happen. I'm not going to say the War in Afghanistan is ok because Obama is the one who ramped it up.
I'm not going to say Torture and Rendition are ok because Obama is doing it less and has "oversight" in place.

I would love to tell people that I stand with Obama no matter what.. but I am a liberal and I just can't do it. I CAN'T. It goes against everything I stand for. If I were to come out now and say well, torture and war is ok because we now have a smart Democratic president, it would go against everything I have ever stood for in my life. I'm sorry if that is so hard for Obama's supporters to understand. Maybe it's a generational thing, I grew up when liberal was not an attack word. When being a liberal wasn't akin to being a leper.
I guess I can understand that the country has moved so far to the right that being a lefty isn't what it used to be. Maybe I'm just one of those crabby old dudes who should get the fuck out of the way so we can bomb and torture whoever the fuck we want without anyone saying a word against it. Then again, nah. I'll keep bitching. I'll keep working, I'll keep calling, I'll keep showing up, but I won't do it for what anyone else wants me to do it for, I'll do it because it's right for me.

[Cleita]

1. I'm not going as far as calling Obama a DLC Democrat

but most of his administration seems to come from those ranks.

[lob1]

2. I think by now it's obvious that Obama is a DLC

democrat.

[chimpymustgo]

7. I think by now it's obvious he's a PUPPET of the powers that be.

[SammyWinstonJack]

37. He's that too. A huge sell out.

[dionysus]

42. huzzah!11!1

:eyes:

[earth mom]

56. Maybe you should stop living in Denial. nt

[Cleita]

65. What I said was tongue in cheek.

Sorry that people took me seriously.

[ProSense]

3. "If this means I have to stand against Obama when he is supporting torture then so be it."

You can stand against him when accusing of doing something there is no evidence that he's doing.

[walldude]

4. Are you serious?

Are you saying we have eliminated the torture and rendition program?

You just posted a thread that said this:

"On Aug. 24, 2009, Attorney General Eric Holder announced that the Special Task Force on Interrogations and Transfer Policies had finished its review. The United States will continue to send individuals to other countries, stated a Department of Justice Press press release, but the United States will seek "assurances from the receiving country" that the suspect will not be tortured."

We will "seek assurances". Have long have you played the political game Pro-Sense? This is called plausible deniability. If the torture program is done then why are we shipping these people out?

You claim I have no evidence. Nope you are right about that. Maybe Assange can get me some :rofl:

What I do have is experience. I can read between the lines, I can see when someone is issuing a non-denial denial, I have seen the spinning and word games for years and years. You say I have no evidence, well neither do YOU. And for me I'd rather hammer on about this and be wrong then turn a blind eye to it and be right.

[ProSense]

5. Yes. Are you? Wait...

"You claim I have no evidence. Nope you are right about that. Maybe Assange can get me some "

Obviously not!

[Vincardog]

9. And there is no evidence that he reserves the right to order the murder of US Citizens without revie

RIGHT?

[ProSense]

11. No, there isn't

The policy doesn't apply to American citizens, it applies to terrorists.

[walldude]

15. It applies to anyone the government calls a terrorist

and they can now kill said "terrorists" with no evidence, no proof, and no rights for an American citizen to have a trial and face their accusers. This is what I am talking about. A Constitutional violation of a persons basic rights not to be killed on the word of the government alone. The right to face your accusers and prove your innocence.

This is a basic fundamental right of an American citizen, and you are sitting there telling me it's all good because the government says "he's a terrorist".

[Vincardog]

20. That policy applies to ANYONE the President deems to be a "terrorist" Without review how will we

ever KNOW? It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL on the face of it. The evidence is that OBAMA claims the power.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. So it's okay to torture terrorists as long as they aren't American citizens?

Is that what you are saying?

But wouldn't that mean Obama is authorizing torture? Or did you mean to say above that he didn't authorize torturing AMERICANS??

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

13. "And you have no evidence to support your claim that I am lying."

That's evidence that you're making things up since I didn't accuse you of lying.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. WTF?!?!

I see denial is merely a river in Egypt in your world.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

6. Thank you for remembering us poor folk. Appreciated.

[walldude]

12. You're welcome...

which reminds me, it's snowing.. again. I gotta see if I have anymore blankets to pass out....

[bobbolink]

17. And even at that, there is a point at which blankets don't help. :(

From Starry Messenger's post:


And if the House gets its way, it will be much worse... please K&R and take action:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x354917

[walldude]

53. I know.. but I'm already carrying 6 people

there isn't much more I can do.

[bobbolink]

61. then you are doing your best with that, and other than that, its working for housing for all.

What you have said is the fact of the matter... charity can NEVER solve it, just as you can see for yourself.

Until we stop the cuts to HUD, and work for more housing, the suffering and deaths will continue.

[TheKentuckian]

8. I play those same cards. The only ones worth spit.

[du_da]

16. When putting the cards on the table

Liberals need to understand that we aren't driving this bus even if we put one of our own in driver's seat. The reason for that is that we, each and every one of us, has failed to educate our fellow americans why our ideals are the best direction for our society. We fail to do that because we have a tendency to assume they should see the light and just fall in line. Then when that doesn't happen we throw up our hands in frustration and start attacking them.

The core problem in all this is that smart as we think we are we aren't using our brains. We aren't evaluating our communication methods and adapting them based on success or failure. We have to speak to the people on their terms; we don't to control the dialog because at the moment we are not the dominate player in the conversation. What we can do is gradually convince our friends and family members all the while spreading what we know to be the truth.

This means we have to change our tactics. This starts by realizing we can't do it alone. We simply don't have the numbers. We have to convince others, that means the centrists and some of the not so far leaning on the right, to come along to our side. Doing that means using methods that welcome them instead of pushing them away. So you want to start making a difference then you have to swallow your frustration with people who may not agree with us and work to convince them why you are right but do so without making them feel lesser of themselves or somehow unwelcome. You also have to do the same with those on the far right even though you aren't concerned with turning their opinions, the reason for that is that attacking them pushes the centrists further toward them. Solidarity is not a concept that only exists on the left, and we often forget that.

Otherwise we will be relegated to riding to wherever the opposition desires to take us.

The keys for success in convincing others to join your cause honesty and humility.

[highprincipleswork]

47. Yeah, like Rush Limpballs does

Just saying, we really got the cards stacked against us in this backwater.

[du_da]

60. That is what happens when we are starting from the no-dominate position.

The fact of the matter is we are in a center-right society attempting to lean the boat to the left. It is a lot easier for them to keep it leaning their way than for us to lean it our way. We have to do it better and more carefully if we seek any degree of success.

With that said, keep in mind that Rush doesn't speak to the center he reinforces the right. Beck is the one you need to be concerned with because he goes out of his way to speak to the center, even taking the occasional shot at the far right to maintain his legitimacy with the center. His technique of presenting factual information then including his slant on the assumptions and connections is a very effective method for what he does. It is a good thing he is obsessed with conspiracy theories as that is the only thing keeping them questioning him.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Smashcut]

21. K/R

[lunatica]

22. I agree with everything you say so I guess I stand next to you

I consider myself a Citizen of the Planet Earth first.

[Leithan]

23. I love puppies

:puke:

[walldude]

25. Fuck you. I'm a cat person.

[Autumn]

24. That's a nice spot. Scoot over and make a little more

room please. There are some things we can not accept.K/R

[RandomThoughts]

26. And we don't accept many ideas not out of stubborness,

but because if they make sense then they should be able to be explained. And if it can not be explained, then why would someone accept something they are told to be like or do.

Just to avoid the rules applied back on beer and travel money that is due, and how that is required. Because it has not been shown wrong, not because it is an arbitrary statement, but because it makes sense.

And if something can not understand that, speaking to divine or other supernatural, then it doesn't deserve respect, and since it does, then therefore the beer and travel money must occur, or someone has to be able to explain why it would not happen.

[walldude]

54. Seems like you have plenty of beer money already..

Drinking and surfing can be dangerous.

[RandomThoughts]

62. What I have I try to share.

beer and travel money is not something I currently have. But not by my fault. Many people have the excess in that area to correct that however. It is there choice.

[Lugnut]

27. JFK said it best.

Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

Count me in.

[duhneece]

28. I like this...may 'borrow' it! nt

[maryf]

29. the key is class division

follow the money...

[fascisthunter]

30. Thank You.... well said

I can't stand phony people who pretend to be in the right because they support a politician regardless of what he or she does.

Not only is it not a good practice to deny one's own ideals and principles, but it is politically stupid to be hypocritical. The other side now can claim "WE" as in the democratic party does it too.

[progressoid]

31. Yup. +1

[Fuddnik]

32. Kick and Rec!

Right on, Dude.

[indepat]

33. I strongly support every one of BHO's liberal/progressive initiatives and strongly

dislike everything done to ratify/continue any of junior's wrongheaded, irresponsible, unfair, illegal, inhumane, or unconstitutional initiatives, so those who must: just go ahead and skewer me. ;)

[wisteria]

34. Do what you have to do. n/t

[democrank]

38. A giant K & R to you, a "crabby old dude."

I`m not a dude but I am 60-something and I`ve been an active Democrat for decades. What is called liberal or progressive today is laughable. By today`s standards, begging for more soup kitchens makes you a socialist. It`s really disgusting.

Can you imagine making excuses for gays not having equal rights? Or torturing someone? Or hiring mercenaries that have to answer to nobody? Can you imagine bashing unions or making excuses for our boarded up factories? Can you imagine standing for the continuing occupation of Afghanistan or ignoring the plight of the ever-growing number of poor? Can you imagine debating whether or not a 12 year old should be sent to prison for life? I could go on and on and on but it makes me want to cry.

I stand with you, walldude. Count on it.

[Hatchling]

39. I stand by you.

[Agony]

40. OMFG! You don't mean principles over PR?! Do you?

Gotta love the latest we don't torture policy where the details of agreement with foreign entities that they will not torture are SECRET!

Ha HA! I was born yesterday, they think...


The best of days to you! walldude!

Cheers,
Agony

[ladyVet]

41. getting in line to stand with you

Outstanding post.

[WillyT]

43. Right There With You !!! - K & R !!!

:yourock:

:kick:

[emilyg]

44. I stand with you.

[abq e streeter]

45. One great big huge k&R

[Sienna86]

46. Well said.

[highprincipleswork]

48. K and R Them's my cards

[Kurovski]

49. K&R. And I wish folks wouldn't call me an "Obama hater" when I disagree

with the same things I disagreed with during Bush's reign.

[Doubting Thomas]

50. Amen.

The best explanation I've ever seen. Couldn't agree more. If it's OK, I'm going to post a link to it on my Facebook page.

[treestar]

51. What are you going to do about it?

Besides post on message boards?

[walldude]

52. What do you care tough guy?

You just keep up with the blind faith it seems to work for you.

I'll tell you what I'm not going to do, no more money, no more time, no more phone banking, and no more voting for faux liberals.

I notice people like you really think you are the only ones who get off your ass. Well you aren't.

[zalinda]

55. Count me in! n/t

[MissDeeds]

57. Thank you, walldude

For again being the voice of integrity and reason. Sorry I'm too late to give this a big rec.

:patriot:

[earth mom]

58. Absolutely positively agree! Sorry I'm too late to rec such a great OP!

IMO Obama blew an incredible opportunity to be remembered as the greatest president EVER.

We should all be asking "WHY?!"

[Kurovski]

59. +100.

[babsbunny]

63. Bless your heart!

[Michigan-Arizona]

66. K&R n/t

[SidDithers]

67. Good for you...

Sid

[Maraya1969]

68. What do you mean by "he is supporting torture"?

From everything that I know no torture is going on now. If you mean he stands for torture by not bringing Bush et al to justice I do not like that at all.

[truth2power]

69. Bradley Manning is being subjected to torture. Obama is CIC

of the military and he could put a stop to this. He evidently chooses not to. I realize that many here will argue that solitary confinement is not torture. I refuse to engage in that endless argument, as it has no merit as far as I'm concerned.

Furthermore, shortly after taking office, Pres. Obama stated, "We don't torture". As with many of his statements, this one also had a loophole. It's my understanding, from reading numerous sources, that we still rendition people to other countries, Egypt for one, where we rely on that country's "assurances" that they will not subject said person to torture. What a joke!

I wouldn't rely on the word of Mubarak's (or Suleiman's) "assurance" that the sun will rise tomorrow. Obama plays word games. All the time. And looks the other way when torture is taking place.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

70. Right there with you --

I refuse to enable anymore -- just can't do it.

[Bandit]

71. What...you haven't been banned yet?

I thought anyone that says anything against the mighty one would get banned in a heart beat..:shrug: