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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 10:42 AM
Original message
The point of protest is not to change things.
I've seen a couple of comments on DU that protestors just want attention and that they don't change things. In one of those posts, Code Pink was disparaged for not accomplishing much against Condi Rice. But of course, the purpose of protesting, especially high brow protestors like ladies in pink taffeta or people in those ridiculous V for Anonymous masks (cause a religious terrorist like Guy Fawkes is such an awesome role model), is not to actual change things.

The point is to raise awareness. If we all wanted to make a reasonable decision about some public policy question, I think what would happen is that we'd all read up on the topic, cull the information into a spreadsheet program, and meet over coffee to figure out the best course of action. Democracy is nothing like that. Democracy is about passion and publicity and about educating the broader public about issues they aren't paying attention to. Thus protests are about getting attention. They're also about raising passions. They're critical to a successful democracy.

Power is about not raising passions or publicity. Power in a democracy relies on quiet acquiescence from the public. Power is about holding equilibrium and protest is about upsetting that balance. When naysayers tells you "Those protestors aren't really accomplishing anything," please remind them that they've accomplished everything just by making you aware of them.

Smart protestors, effective protestors, will relocate the understanding of the problem they protest. Code Pink was immensely successful (or should I say "fabulously successful"?) because they brought attention to the people who were making the horrible decisions to prosecute one needless war badly and one necessary war incompetently. Their stated goal was to be "a women-initiated grassroots peace and social justice movement working to end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, stop new wars, and redirect our resources into healthcare, education, green jobs and other life-affirming activities." Well, since they got going, we haven't had any new ground wars over oil. We've had an air war over oil, but committing ground troops was unthinkable. Anyone who was paying attention to the plans of the neocons in the mid-aughts knows that the Bushies certainly had other wars in mind when they started their drumbeat for Iraq. Somalia, Syria, and ultimately Iran were on PNAC's hitlist. Code Pink and its allies didn't stop that march to a "Long War" (as the neocons called it). But they were the drum majors who led the band.

When you hear about the hippies on Wall Street raising a ruckus, don't measure them by whether a law gets passed because of their monkeyshines. They're not running the train. But they are laying the track. That is to say, they're helping the rest of us understand where the pain on Main Street is coming from. They're making a few extra people question how matters in the economy ought to be gauged. From an economist's point of view, we're not in a recession because large corporations are making profits. The protestors remind us that slimming down overhead (by firing a few thousand people) is not the same thing as increasing business.

Maybe you, dear DUer, already know about it. I assure you, most people don't and most people don't vote and if they do they don't follow the decisions of those whom they vote for. I know you're past the protest stage and you're ready for action from Washington. That's just not where the public consensus is yet. There are still more passions to be raised and there are still more powerful people out there needing to have their balance thrown off and their decisions brought to light. They still hide in the dark; they can still step back from their high windows and pad their comfortable chairs with bonuses. We still need more and we still need bigger protests.

Yes, the masks are silly. But democracy isn't. Holding the derailers of the economy accountable and redirecting public policy to a fairer system will require a lot more attention from a much angrier public. We need the silliness. We need the high concept protests that will draw the attention of a lazy smug media establishment. We need more attention so that a critical fraction of the public starts asking the right questions. That's what creates the change in the long run.

The protestors are like the alarm clock you set by your bed. They're screaming for all of us to wake up. Don't let anyone tell you they're useless if they don't get the work done for you. They're doing all they can. God bless 'em all.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Depends on what kind of protesting we're doing -
general strikes can have a lot of impact - especially if we interrupt their commerce.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. + infinity and beyond!
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. The unrec wreckers are ON this thread - trying to smother thought
Perfectly revolting (R).
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pintobean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. -1
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. -1
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. - !
elevens
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Well, either that, or they're simply protesting my post.
Which only goes to fuck up my equilibrium.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Don't the the WrecktumNators get you down
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
41. Wow, it only took the 3rd post to complain about UnRec.
UnRec does not smother thought, not responding and not kicking a thread do that.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
5. Karl Rove actually indirectly credited Code Pink with outsized
Edited on Sun Sep-25-11 11:01 AM by coalition_unwilling
influence, referring to 'those ladies in pink' (or words to that effect) as having been particularly effective in raising consciousness against Bush.

I cannot for the life of me find the citation for Rove's remarks but I remember reading them when they first appeared as plain as day.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
9. Excellent! Rec'd
Edited on Sun Sep-25-11 11:08 AM by lunatica
Even the detractors' threads against protest movements are helping raise awareness, so we should respond to them so they can stay at the top.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
11. I'm protesting your thread
so that others will become aware of it.

Wish I could rec it more than once.
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the_chinuk Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
12. Perfectly said. k/r n/t
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
13. K&R
:kick:
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
14. Whoop-de-doo! The real problem still is that...
these "protestors" do not represent the people they claim they are empowering, educating, or whatever else it is they claim to be doing.

None of them look like they're working two jobs to save a home with an underwater mortgage.

None of the them have a clear message of just what the problem is or a practical answer how to solve it whenever they figure out what it is. Just rambling on about the power structure, Wall Street, or whatever else isn't going to get anyone excited.

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Joe Shlabotnik Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. wtf?

What do people working 2 jobs look like, what do homeowners underwater look like? What an ignorant comment! These people protesting wall street (if you cared to actually watch some footage) look like everybody else, young, middle aged, and even a few oldsters. There are veterans there, and there are 911 first responders there. But most importantly they are representing the people who CANT be there, because they're stuck working 2 McJobs, or don't have the money to travel to NYC.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Miss the point a lot, do ya? In plain English-- protests are bullshit and have NEVER...
accomplished anything without a real movement and power base behind them.

And this one is particularly stinky bullshit because it doesn't even have a rallying call or specific point to make. If it was calling for an action, any action, it might have the ghost of a chance, but it's just a lot of pissed off people mumbling about how pissed off they are. Give just ONE politician the tools to change things and things might happen.

The guys upstairs know they're pissed off and don't care-- they know the protesters can't do a thing about it.

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Joe Shlabotnik Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Didn't miss the point
I just thought your remark was elitist and arrogant, and I disagree about the make-up of the protesters. I think approach is novel, and if you believe that the Arab spring protests were about only one issue or another you are mistaken. There comes a point when so many economic and political issues converge that dis-entangling them becomes impossible. There a lot of people hurting right now for many reasons, but because they're not united by a bumper sticker slogan doesn't diminish the attention that they deserve. The system divides people that way, and keeps them suffering. These issues need to be examined by some adults, not those who are looking for a quarterly gain in profit, or a bump in the polls. And as far as I can tell no one politician, or party seems willing to change anything. There are no FDRs or LBJs or TR Roosevelts waiting to save you. Wake up.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
45. Great post - you'd think folks would realize that even when Obama
riding in on a mass wave of approval couldn't save them ...

We ARE the ones we've been waiting for to borrow a hokey slogan - and it's going to take many more folks in the street. Wisconsin and Wall Street are just a start - and we will learn as we go.

Would love to see some strong unions join in. Maybe not with this particular protest but the time will come.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
51. You go Joe
well said:thumbsup:
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. They are calling for end of corporate money in politics. nt
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. We'll all
anxiously await for the protest you organize that isn't 'stinky bullshit' since you're such an expert on it.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #19
39. Protesters always accomplish their goals.
If they stick to it. The Vietnam War ended because of protests. Civil rights were enacted because of protests. The bushes crimes became common knowledge because of protests. Unions were created because of protests. 8 hour work days and child labor laws were enacted because of protests. Social Security was enacted because of protests. Mubarak was kicked out because of protests. India became a free country because of protests. The Russian monarch was overthrown because of protest. The French revolution began with protests.

Anytime major social change happens it is only done because of protests.

In fact protests are the only power that will force major social change.

If you buy into the corporate media and their propagandized educational system, you go around believing protests accomplish nothing. But the plain fact is protests are the only thing that can change the status quo.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #19
42. Welcome to my little friend: ignore. nt
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
36. +1
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
40. and, of course, sitting back only observing, is a much better
impetus for change?

Don't criticize those who attempt to change the vastly corrupt system. It only makes you appear the poster child for what is wrong in this country (ie apathy)
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
15. very well said.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
16. Don't forget moving the Overton Window back to the left.
Right wing policy wonks have been running circles around the left on that for years now. I would never in a million years hire a Democratic Party Strategist to bargain the price of a souvenir.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
18. K&R
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. If the masks help raise the alarum, more the better. And remember, it only takes 10% to create a
tipping point / attractor.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. bucky, what an amazing insight.
Thank you for sharing this insight with all of us.

I have often heard people disparaging protesters, but this argument of yours really knocks anything the naysayers are thinking right out of the park.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
23. Precisely.
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KarenS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
24. Thank you ,,,,,
Now I have an answer for all the nay-sayer relatives in my life!!

:applause:
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
25. Well said. K&R.
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pmorlan1 Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
27. Thank you
Thanks for the post. In the threads about the Wall Street protests I see the same people knocking the protesters. Evidently the protesters are already making a difference just judging by the amount of time these people spend on knocking them. If they weren't effective these people wouldn't bother. lol
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
28. They're doing all they can
and that's considerably more than their passive critics.

K & R.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
29. You have nailed it, Bucky.
It could not have been better stated.

:)
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LatteLibertine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-11 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
30. I'd agree
the point is to provoke discussion and to bring issues to the forefront.

We need campaign finance reform and term limits for Congress to reduce cronyism and corruption.

Currently our government is owned by a small wealthy minority.
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Sirveri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
31. what's the point of awareness if nothing comes of it?
I mean really, if you're not affecting real actual change, then what are you really doing? What happens if you barely even register as a blip (like the Iraq war protests)? Want to get noticed, block the doors to the entrance to the stock exchange. Prevent entry to the big banks. If you want change, then you need to cost the 'owners' money, that's what the unions do with strikes, that's what needs to happen with these protests. That's why general strikes in Europe work, because they actually shut the system down.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Protests work toward that goal in different wys. One benefit of protest is
the morale boosts it gives activists/progressives in other parts of the country and even the world. People who want change know they aren't alone when they see others protesting.
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wial Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
34. I wonder who on the secret team
is responsible for keeping the protest disparagement meme alive on the so-called left? As the anarchists say "be realistic, demand the impossible". Otherwise, the possible becomes impossible. Good cops have nothing if they don't have bad cops backing them up.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 04:24 AM
Response to Original message
35. Kicked and recommended! nt
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malthaussen Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
37. Guy Fawkes was not a Terrorist
That word gets thrown around way too much this century. Today's "terrorist" label is applied as witlessly as "Commie" was thrown around before the USSR fell apart.

Guy Fawkes intended to blow up Parliament to instigate a revolution, NOT to cause terror. (Granting, for the nonce, that the Gunpowder Plot was in fact more than a phantasy designed to excuse another anti-Popish crackdown, which is not completely certain) The purpose of a terrorist is to spread terror, and by so doing cause the government to respond with greater and greater degrees of oppression and suspicion against innocent citizens. In this respect, the late Osama bin-Laden achieved his objectives in spades.

Thus we arrive at our current state, and the purpose of protest. I view the current protest on Wall Street in two lights, those of reconnaissance and training. If things are to change in the US and we are to regain some or all of the ground we have lost since the new century opened its unbelieving eyes, we are going to need protests and a lot of them to get the message out to the lawmakers. I rather expect it is going to be a long road, and not something to be accomplished in a matter of one or two Presidential terms. The people who are going to be on the sharp end -- the rising generation, not the fossils like myself -- are going to have to get used to sleeping on the ground, eating pizza three times a day, and dealing with chemical deterrents and broken heads. Hopefully nobody dies this time, unlike Kent State and Jackson State 40 years ago (and many more during the Civil Rights movement), but I wouldn't be putting great odds on that one, either. The actual "results" of this protest or that in terms of immediately changing things are of no consequence. But hopefully a cadre is being created, who are gaining experience and understanding of the battle that needs to be waged, and who will be leaders in a movement that will gain traction and spread throughout the country. Dissent has become completely unfashionable in this country, and it does appear that a good few people even here think it is somehow unpatriotic. Quite an irony when the reverse happens to be the case.

Allow me to finish with one little aside -- a rather delicious irony, actually. The purpose of protest and the purpose of terrorism are the same: to force the authorities to act with violence and repression. The terrorist uses violence against innocents to provoke repression against innocents. The protester invites violence upon himself to provoke repression and thus incite more protest. In both cases, the objective is to create oppression from the coercive authority in order to eventually evoke disgust and rebellion by the masses and thus force the government to modify their policies. The difference, you see, lies in who the victims of the violence are: which is why terrorists are cowards and protesters are courageous.

-- Mal
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #37
46. Great post - we are in the very early stages. nt
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. Silly post to assume taht all terrorists have one shared objective like that.
As has been repeated endless times on DU ever since the insane "War on Terror" was started in 2001, terror is a technique, not a philosophy. Just as you can't "declare war" on it, neither can you assign a uniformity of intentions and beliefs to people who use terror as a weapon.

For instance the Anarchists of the late 19th century were by any reasonable standard terrorists, although they had the discrimination to only murder monarchs and plutocrats (McKinley, a couple of tsars, some other Euro-royals) or at worst half a dozen cops in Haymarket Square. And yet their intention was not to initiate a police crackdown, at least not uniformly so.

Few violent extremists are the conspiratorial masterminds you suppose, plotting out ricochet-like knock on effects of their violence. Lenin was, possibly Hitler was, but for the most part they're being violent to protest and hope that their protests will radicalize their would-be sympathizers. That was certainly bin Laden's game. His plan was to rally Islam to his cause, discourage America, and drive us out of the Middle East. His plan most certainly was not to trigger an American imperial over-reach with two full-on wars and half a dozen proxy actions.

With regard to Guido Fawkes himself, I just don't see how one can attempt to murder the entire Parliament and intend it not to be terrifying. Mass destruction as a means to mass murder, by targeting a principal symbol of a nation's sovereignty is by definition terrorism. I don't think it's throwing the term around loosely call a politically motivated would-be mass murderer taking on a specific plot that hinges on the terror he cause a "terrorist." It would be disingenuous to call it anything but terrorism.
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malthaussen Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Terrorism as Opposed to What?
My definition of terrorism is the classical one, so I'm pretty comfortable with it. If however you want to define any action that produces terror as terrorism, then be my guest; but such an inclusive definition would tend to muddy the waters, which is why I object to it.

For example, threatening violence unless someone pays you money is "terrorism," since it definitely is terrorizing, yet we have another name for such an action: we call it "extortion." Why so? Because it defines a specific technique.

Bombing enemy civilians in order to kill them and sap the will of the enemy to resist might certainly be called terrorism, except that it is a technique we and our allies have frequently employed and we're not terrorists, doncha know. So we resort to other names, although in WWII we were more honest and called it "terror bombing," which is somewhat close to terrorism, although somehow considered "purer" and not so cowardly. And after all, they started it.

What we have here is largely a semantical disagreement. I prefer a narrower definition of "terrorism," one that actually tells us something about the specific tactics and strategy being employed, which have quite a long history. I think using a broader definition necessarily loses any distinction and becomes indiscriminate. I find this undesireable.

After all, if we apply the simple creation of terror as the definition of terrorism, then all war is terrorism, all crime is terrorism, and these days all politics is terrorism (at least I'm terrified). And let's get real about one other thing: "terrorist" is a label used against anyone we happen to dislike a lot because it has a very high negative emotional index. It allows us to dismiss an enemy with, "Oh, they're just a terrorist" without having to bother to analyze or understand the enemy's motives or objectives.

-- Mal

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
38. I like your suggestion: "raise awareness" In those terms, our efforts in OH '04
election theft has been successful as now most people have come to terms that the GOP will do anything to come out ahead.
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Highway61 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
43. K & R!
n/t
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Eyerish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
44. K&R
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libmom74 Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
47. K&R
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
48. The Egyptians and Tunisians must have been stunned shitless when their governments collapsed.
"Oh shit!" ;)
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Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
52. Protests are vital to raise awareness
because of how entertainment slanted the media has become.
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kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
53. Nothing like my alarm clock at all
I actually care about what my alarm clock stands for and does.
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