"This is a book written out of fear — fear that one day someone will 'Pinochet' Dick Cheney.”

[KansDem]

:rofl:

A very revealing interview with Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, former chief-of-staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell:

Ex-Bush Official Col. Lawrence Wilkerson: "I Am Willing To Testify" If Dick Cheney Is Put On Trial

As former Vice President Dick Cheney publishes his long-awaited memoir, we speak to Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, former chief-of-staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell. "This is a book written out of fear — fear that one day someone will 'Pinochet' Dick Cheney,” says Wilkerson, alluding to the former Chilean dictator, Augusto Pinochet, who was arrested for war crimes. Wilkerson also calls for George W. Bush and Cheney to be held accountable for their crimes in office. "I would be willing to testify and I would be willing to take any punishment I am due,” Wilkerson said. We also speak to Salon.com political and legal blogger Glenn Greenwald about his recent article on Cheney, “The Fruits of Elite Immunity.” “Dick Cheney goes around the country profiting off of this sleazy, sensationalistic, self-serving book, basically profiting from his crimes and at the same time normalizing the idea that of these kinds of policies … are perfectly legitimate choices to make, and I think that is really damaging legacy from all of this,” says Greenwald.

DemocracyNow!

[FSogol]

1. Love it. n/t

[lindysalsagal]

2. They're taking sides, in public. Beautiful.

Let's waterboard Dick and see what comes out.

[Canuckistanian]

14. Cheney trashed Bush officials left and right in his book.

In addition to the lies about Plame, he called Colin Powell disloyal, said that Condi was weak and cried and even said that Shrub should have invaded Syria.

Our CBC called his book egotistic, unapologetic and bombastic.

[brooklynite]

3. I don't wish to sound insensitive, but...what EXACTLY would you charge Cheney with?

First of all, Cheney was the VICE-PRESIDENT; which means he didn't have policy implementation rights, unless you're aware of something I'm not. He may well support things that are (or that you think are) chargeable, but I don't see how you can prove culpability.

Second, if you look at the Administration as a whole, I don't see the criminal actions either. The two traditional complaints I read are "lying to get us into a war" and "using torture" on prisoners. As for the first, lying, however immoral, is not a crime unless it's under oath, and I can't think of an instance in which Cheney or Bush said something knowingly false (this also assumes making knowing falsehoods as opposed to being stupid, which plenty of people have accused Bush of as well). As for the second, the Administration can point to legal opinions saying that enhanced interrogations were within the limits of the law. Perhaps they weren't and therefore you could attempt to go after the Lawyers who wrote the opinions, but I don't see how you craft a case that Administration decision makers implemented a policy that they clearly knew was illegal.

[lindysalsagal]

4. IIlegal wire tapping, falsifying documents, going to war without UN approval

fabricating war rationale: (Yellow cake uranium...Joe Wilson's firing for whistleblowing) Usurping the power of the president, firing Clinton's terror response team and refusing to get their files or recommendations, shooting his friend in the face, lying to congress and senate and committee heads, lying to other heads of state, lying to the special investigator, ordering other officials (Colin powell) to lie to the media, violating geneva conventions, fale arrest (soldiers) abu graib, all the stuff Scooter libby lied about and got convicted of...

I'm just a school teacher. If I can come up with that much without the google, then many low level insiders could prove many more.

There's plenty, if Obama has the cohones.

[wtmusic]

5. That was one of the most discussed topics on this board in 2003-2004.

There's a very strong argument that "pre-emptive war" is a war crime by just about any standard. It's forbidden in the UN Charter, which with our signature becomes a "law of the land" under the US Constitution.

One of the best analyses: "The Myth of Pre-Emptive Self-Defense"

"This strategy (the invasion of Iraq based on supposed evidence of WMDs) is based on a conception of preemptive self-defense. Preemptive self- defense, however, is clearly unlawful under international law. Armed action in self-defense is permitted only against armed attack. Some scholars have argued over the years that preemptive self-defense should be considered lawful, but the United States as a government has consistently supported the prohibition on such preemptive use of force. The United States has taken this position for compelling reasons of national security and in light of its national values. It is joined in this position by the vast majority of the international community. Thus, the reality is that the United States has no right to use force to prevent possible, as distinct from actual, armed attacks. The further reality is that the United States does not advance its security or its moral standing in the world by doing so."

http://www.asil.org/taskforce/oconnell.pdf

[KansDem]

7. Exposing Valerie Plame?

Murray Waas: Cheney Admits Crucial Role In Valerie Plame Leak

"Giving aid and comfort to the enemy" = treason.

[bemildred]

8. War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity, then the little stuff. nt

[hifiguy]

9. He was in on all of it

Waging aggressive war, crimes against humanity, war crimes, spying on US citizens. Being in on the decision making process or executing the orders of a "higher" authority, though it is clear that DicKKK was calling all the shots for years, sent many to the gallows at Nuremberg. Cheney has loudly, publicly and repeatedly bragged about all of this. There doesn't even need to be a trial.

[liberation]

11. "if you look at the Administration as a whole, I don't see the criminal actions either."

So did you see all those WMDs then? And there was that whole matter of exposing CIA agents, for which Cheney's own chief of staff was found guilty. And what about the exact connections between Kenneth Lay and the Bush team, and the "secret" energy task force? And more importantly what about their responsibility for the massive break down in security on 9/11?

Regardless of what Nixon may have you belie, if the administration does it... it does not necessarily mean it is legal.

[Capitalocracy]

13. So if I hire a lawyer to write me a legal opinion that it's OK to rob a bank

then you're saying that lawyer would be arrested not me?

This is an interesting idea...

[Puregonzo1188]

16. Waging a war of aggression, which is a crime under the Kellog-Briand Pact

and the UN Charter, both of which were ratified by the Senate and are thus US law, as well as the Nuremberg Tribunal--which was set up by the US and established the prohibition of aggressive war as a norm under customary international war.

I'd also like to note that the International Covenant on Political and Civil Rights also prohibits propaganda for war, which was also ratified by the US Senate.


As for as water boarding not being torture, the United States has prosecuted and convicted individuals for water boarding in the past--it's torture.

[Caretha]

19. OMG

no words, just no fuckin' words. Please pass the joint, because you have defnintely bogarted it way too long.

[sabrina 1]

24. Waterboarding is illegal and Dick Cheney has publicly confessed

that he 'would do it again' if 'I had to'. How about we start there?

As for not lying under oath?? They ARE under oath, to defend and protect the US Constitution. And every lie they tell in their capacity as elected officials, is a violation of that oath, tantamount to treason. In fact much has been written about this by legal experts regarding Cheney and Bush.

The only reason Cheney was not indicted in the Plame Affair was because Libby covered for him. Which is why the Prosecutor said he had 'sand thrown in his eyes'.

As for your saying you can't think of an instance were Bush or Cheney 'knowlingly lied', you can't be serious!

[The Doctor.]

25. I love a good Devil's Advocate. You rock!

Actually, the case can be made. The problem is getting the right people under oath with their 'accustomed' lives on the line.

That's the real problem.

Thanks for pinning the point though.

[MemeSmith]

26. "clearly knew" is not an issue

Ignorance is not a defence, so clearly knowing that something is illegal is not a material element of guilt. If it's illegal and you do it, you're guilty.

Lying us into a war is illegal. It is the prime war crime under the Nuremberg principles - waging aggressive war.

The Pinochet menace is not related to US domestic law. It is related to International Law. Bush and Cheyney are at risk of being tried for their crimes in the Hague, which is what the colonel is referring to.

Given that he has presented himself so publicly as a potential witness, I expect to hear news of how he has committed suicide or died in a light aircraft crash.


Edit: title typo

[Bluebear]

27. " if you look at the Administration as a whole, I don't see the criminal actions either"

Good god

[Enthusiast]

32. How ridiculous.

Legal opinions didn't save the Nazis at Nuremberg.

[A Simple Game]

33. Probably the best you could hope for would be some sort of conspiracy charges. n/t

[DirkGently]

34. Sure. If the administration's laughable, made-up legal rationale held up. AND assuming there are

no more egregious facts to discover.

Which both seem highly unlikely, were anyone to undertake any kind of serious investigation / prosecution.

You can't actually circumvent laws by relying on a legal opinion intrepreting them in your favor. That's a cynical and dishonest political defense, at best, and given the administration rather blatantly custom-ordered the legal opinions it wanted, it's not even good for that.

No one actually believes the administration's fabricated reading of executive power was correct.

It's also not likely that the most egregious and most easily prosecuted specific facts to be found regarding Cheney's actions are the ones everyone has already managed to glean from the public record or read between the lines, or the ones he's admitted to, like illegal torture.

As for "lying" us into a destructive war, there's a bit more to that idea than just Cheney going on television and constantly reiterating the non-existent Iraq / Al Quaeda link, isn't there? It's not like he just "misspoke" or exagerrated. It wasn't a fib. It was a far-reaching, determined, sustained, fraudulent manipulation then went on and on.

Just for instance, we know he directly interfered with CIA investigations, intercepting and re-interpreting intelligence and harrassing analysts, when he wasn't busy exposing undercover operatives, that is.

Put it this way: If what Bush & Cheney did -- instigating a baseless war of aggression that killed and maimed hundreds of thousands of people, and kidnapping and torturing people all over the world in secret prisons, is not prosecutable as war crime, what IS?

What position would America take if another country did these things?

How many world leaders have been pursued and prosecuted for less?

[paparush]

35. Arson.

He torched his own office to destroy evidence.

[olegramps]

36. You could say the same about the Hitler regime. But , thank God, our leaders didn't.

[tk2kewl]

6. .

:patriot:

[xiamiam]

10. those were the exact phrases running in my head after listening to the interview

i respect that he said he would be willing to take any punishment due, that he would testify ..stand up guy..willing to be held accountable and we need more of that..no accountability in america today..for wall street and war street crimes..i like wilkerson

[Canuckistanian]

12. I heard that line

But I was also impressed that Wilkerson said that he'd be willing to take his punishment if anyone ever prosecuted him for his role in preparing Colin Powell's little Powerpoint presentation to the U.N.

[Capitalocracy]

15. Pinochet went through some legal procedures but he didn't suffer any consequences.

His heart managed to keep beating inside that gigantic chest for over 90 years, and he died in freedom and luxury enjoying the fruits of his crimes.

We need to either learn how to make people live longer or start prosecuting war criminals faster.

[defendandprotect]

29. Right -- and look at Cheney .... he looks like he's at death's door ... final arrogance!!

[ejbr]

17. k & r n/t

k

[Gin]

18. since he is untouchable....I can only hope his battery pack

fails...just looking at his soulless self makes me cringe.

[DissedByBush]

20. Any prosecutor could kill Cheney

If indicted and tried I guarantee Cheney is dead of a "heart attack" before the jury goes out.

[MrMickeysMom]

21. I believe that's what a bully does best...

... fears.....

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[MessiahRp]

22. Prosecute him and get his evil, lying daughter as well. Take them both to prison.

Hell line them up. Get a few buses and bring them to prison in old time chain gang shackles. It will be like Liberty University field trips back in the day for most of them.

[LetTimmySmoke]

23. Why isn't Cheney where he belongs?

In Leavenworth, doing a life sentence for torture, perjury, and war crimes.

[lonestarnot]

31. Because they make mechanical hearts pretty well these days.

[defendandprotect]

28. Is Wilkerson saying that Colin Powell didn't aid and abet Bush/Cheney warsmongering?

He's right on Cheney -- but he also worked for Powell!!

:puke:

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beac]

37. Stay out of small planes Col. Wilkerson. Cheney is vindictive, unscrupulous and dangerous. n/t