You know, in the country in which I was raised, Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann would be . . . .

[Stinky The Clown]

. . . . nowhere NEAR a presidential campaign.

There was a presidential candidate once who was a Roman Catholic. He had to spend a great deal of time trying to convince his country's citizens that he would not allow that to influence his presidency. And he wasn't even all that great a Catholic. I just can't imagine that a swaggering asshole who holds a public religious revival featuring the most extreme of his country's religious extremists as a way to kick off his campaign, a man who endorses the idea of having his state secede from the union, a man who walks around firing handguns, I can't imagine that man ever getting to a primary, let alone a campaign.

Neither can I imagine a woman who is religious zealot, a woman married to another religious zealot, a woman who has a questionable degree from a questionable university that preaches questionable philosophy that is arguably far out of the mainstream, a woman who is married to a man who has a business performing quack cures, I can't imagine that woman coming into the same room as a presidential candidate might enter.

Yet here we are, in early 21st Century America, witnessing those very things.

You know, I look around and I SWEAR this is the same place where I grew up. But I know if can't be. Not with this sort of shit happening. Not when I hear the news telling me that the man and the woman described above are taken seriously as presidential candidates.

[HillbillyBob]

1. I have been walking around for some years thinking

Robert A. Heinlein really was the 'Cracked Cassandra', he referred to this era as 'The Crazy Years' even projected the involvement of the religious right and the US knack for religious hysteria.
These particular brands of xtianity, far right of course are all hip on Armageddon (and possibly trying to bring it on)and the Rapture bullshit). The thought that any one of them with their finger on The Button...just sends me off into the dark....

[madokie]

5. I agree with you HillbillyBob

It scared me to death that darth and w had their fingers on the button for 8 years, I still shutter to think about that. To see someone like my super fundie neighbor, who is a bigot big time btw, have his finger on the button stops me dead in my tracks. the fear of that is so much that I have to go now and get this thought out of my head. :hi:

[Greybnk48]

7. Love Heilein. Aldous Huxley as well.

Look as the intermingling of drugs and religion in Brave New World where they worship the "Our Ford" the creator of mass production and therefore consumption; their religious symbol is a T for the model T car. Love, empathy, sympathy are all taboo because they get in the way of production and consumption, which is part of their religion.

Although, unlike this group, in BNW they had no problem with sex--orgy porgy!

[mwb970]

9. "Vulcan's Hammer" by Philip K. Dick (1960) was prescient as well....

Objective, unbiased and hyperrational, the Vulcan 3 should have been the perfect ruler. The omnipotent computer dictates policy that is in the best interests of all citizens—or at least, that is the idea. But when the machine, whose rule evolved out of chaos and war, begins to lose control of the “Healer” movement of religious fanatics and the mysterious force behind their rebellion, all Hell breaks loose.

http://www.amazon.com/Vulcans-Hammer-Philip-K-Dick/dp/1400030129/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313153832&sr=8-1

[Greybnk48]

14. That sounds like a winner. Thanks!

I'll probably pick that one up. I loved Frank Herbert and Vonnegut too! Both prescient and brilliant writers.

[mwb970]

65. This was the edition I read as a kid. It was a "double novel" paperback.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Philip-K-Dick-Vulcans-Hammer-FIRST-pb-orig-/350312501494?pt=Antiquarian_Collectible&hash=item51904090f6#ht_519wt_765

35 cents then, 50 bucks now. Hmm.

[quarbis]

101. Amazon has

it for $11.90

[mwb970]

118. Yeah, I saw it there.

But somebody thinks they can get 50 bucks for it!

[Bluenorthwest]

137. That is the pure, uncut stuffs....

Great just to see the cover here...

[HillbillyBob]

16. I will have to pu a copy..I am a voracious reader..and have missed that one

I may have had it in my library at one time..the title seems familiar, but had to get rid of about 500 or more books when we left SoFl for NC.

[MedicalAdmin]

54. Excellent books all.

I also like Dicks "man in the high castle."

[cactusfractal]

58. Read again Heinlein's "If This Goes On..."

sobering prognostication on American theocracy, and that was well before the current crop of Jesused-up politicians...

[gauguin57]

126. Oh, just chill out and take your Soma.

Bachmann and Perry want us all to take our Soma. Soma smeared on a cross and wrapped in the flag.

Brave New World is one of my favorite books.

I, like The Savage, stand up for the right to face all the inconvenient truths in this world.

[Scuba]

22. +1 - These people are dangerous. n/t

[gordianot]

44. I met Heinlein in the late 60's as teenager and got to talk to him and his brother.

He was very conservative in the sense of old fashion Republican conservative on matters of national security. I was once told it is OK to have long hair as long as you show up for registration for the draft. I know for a fact what both he and his brother ( how I met him) thought of religious fanatics as bad as Communist (remember I am talking about the 1960's). He also knew that I was a fan of Bobby Kennedy who would probably be OK if he got a haircut ( that was dig at me). One of my best memories ever was digging with them in a creek looking for giant mud puppies " a living fossil older than the dinosaurs". That is another area of contemporary conservatives anti science that would have sent both brothers into spastic fits. My mother was told that the newer books were more adult but I was " probably mature enough to read them" at the age of 16.

Robert Heinlein was from another time he would have loved the technology but been alien to what passes for tea party politics.

[MedicalAdmin]

56. I am seriously envious.

It was always one of my goals to hang out for a day with many authors and RAH was high on the list. It's a pity that he was co-opted by the Randian fans...

[Bette Noir]

71. Be careful what you wish for. Writers can be among the most self-involved jerks around.

I speak from experience.

[RaleighNCDUer]

84. You don't know what you're talking about -

you never met me.

[hifiguy]

89. LOL. True sometimes

Neil Gaiman used to do regular signings at the bookshop I managed. Incredibly nice, patient guy and unbelievably bright. Harlan Ellison was a self-involved jerk, but incredibly charming and amusing at the same time.

[gordianot]

96. Heinlein and his brother were over grown kids wading the muck in the creek.

I am sure politically we were worlds apart then. They sure would not fit anything like the fundie creationist of today. The afternoon we spent in the creek I forgot one was a famous author. About all we found were leeches which was also a lot of fun. About a week later the old General found an enormous mud puppy I followed him down the creek to take a picture so he could send it to his brother. In todays terms I would say Robert Heinlein would be a neo-con. I remember one conversation about the draft and how it was unfair the National Guard got a pass out of Vietnam. Years later it came back to me with real clarity when Bush II escapade in the Guard came to light.

They were fun for the day. I take it the brothers were close, in the summer the old General would come down and we would sit out in the yard and talk. I heard stories about Robert especially after he was detained when he wrote the story about the bomb.

If you like acting like a 13-17 year old you would have enjoyed the Heinlein brothers.

[PavePusher]

122. Neo-con? Heh, I don't really think so.

I believe he was far too libertarian for that.

I could, of course, be very very wrong....

[liberal N proud]

86. The trying to bring it on is what really scares me about these people

They are insane about armageddon happening while they are alive.

:crazy:

[itsnotaboutu]

131. The problem is

They won't bring on Armageddon, it will be annihilation of the entire planet. In a rational world they would be in padded cells.
Weaving baskets with the Tea Party.

[HillWilliam]

140. I've mostly recovered long ago but

there's still a tiny Lutheran spot in my heart that says it's selfish to tug on the sleeve of the Almighty. It's also just flat-out evil to tug on the sleeve of the Almighty to wish harm on someone else. The wackogelicals are ALL about wishing harm on everyone else. It's not just the hypocrisy they exhibit: it's the smug, self-involved, self-righteousness they wallow in that irks the shyte out of me. If there's supposed to be some Armegiddon, it's supposed to happen in G'd's own time, not when the wackogelicals demand it to happen.

IMHO, it's the tackiest sort of pettishness and a sorry excuse; hiding behind religion to rationalize acts of purest evil.

Show me a right-winger and I'll show you somebody who has no qualms sneaking in your back yard to steal the sheets off your clothesline and the wood off the side of your shed to go burn a cross in someone else's yard (whom they don't know and don't care to know) and beat them to death with a Bible they don't read.

There's a reason that Christianity is the only major religion that uses an instrument of torture as its symbol.

[BobbyBoring]

97. You and me both Bob

people that hear god telling them they are destined for something special scare the shit out of me.

I do believe in self fulfilling prophecies.

Palin IMHO is the scariest of all with her "Alaska has a chosen role in the end times" or some horse shit like that.

[madokie]

2. You got that right

You know somewhere along the way we, we as in country, lost our way. Sad that it has but I and many of us has been witness to that too.
Rec

[catbyte]

4. I've been alive since 1955, and I noticed the change with Reagan

That's when the religious shit hit the fan and the country started it's downward spiral.

Morning in America, my ass.

Diane
Anishinaabe in MI

[Greybnk48]

10. I think that's when the former "Moonies" went mainstream.

This whole Jesus-freak nonsense started in the 70's, and then came the nuts who bullied people with it. If you weren't with them, you "walked with Satan." Where I live they would hook kids into their groups and often send them out of state to farms and communes for indoctrination. One group got a friend's daughter and sent her to Oregon for 6 months. That was as recently as 2000 and she's still religiously insane.

[HillWilliam]

141. Buddah-boom!

Moon and his minions infiltrated churches nationwide to push their nasty, nutty agenda. There was a stink a few years back about lots of wackogelical churches taking down crosses from their sanctuaries. That was a Moon-inspired wave, zero doubt. Those churches were and still are the farthest out on the fringe, hanging off the edge of their flat earth by their fingernails.

[HillbillyBob]

15. That was when they started to come out of their churches onto the stage

There were extreme religious types all through the century. Father Coughlin, Coe..look them up, they were sort of godfathers to this nationalistic white pharisees / corporate shills. Sinclair Lewis's It Can't Happen Here, which I have yet to get through(e book) it..but have been over much of the same turf in person and in other books. I went to a few of what are referred to now as Dominionist and was horrified to my toenails at the (condensed) message..convert to our way or die, cause we are soldiers of gawd, and the actual weapons supposedly stored up for their revolution against homos, 'others' of any stripe race religion etc.
I may be paranoid, but I would rather be a live paranoid up on our little homestead than be in the way when this pot finally boils over.
Guns at townhall meetings? really? I thought perhaps that would really break out in violence..oh yeah Rep Gabby and the 6 dead in front of Safeway.....

[Greybnk48]

17. When I saw the transformation of a couple of my

friends in the 70's I was afraid to go to any of their "services." I had friends that went bonkers; went from regular kids to shaved heads, white shirt, black panted religious automatons with a perpetual fake smile. Women were to take a subservient role, of course. It was creepy. Apparently America was ripe for it.

[USMCMustang]

45. FYI The Sadducees

The Pharisees were the party of the people and that is why they were biblically maligned. The Sadducess were in bed with the Romans. See Hyam Maccoby's "Revolution in Judea" and other histroy books.

[Horse with no Name]

75. I remember growing up in this era and the religious crazies being marginalized

by the sane Christians. I believe they called them the "Holy Rollers", IIRC.

I believe it was after Raygun that this particular pot boiled over and the crazies scurried out of the woodwork.

[Art_from_Ark]

130. I went to a "Holy Roller" summer camp once

I think it was Summer of '71, in south-central Missouri. Anyway, we'd have "Vespers" in the evening and then they'd try to get us speaking in tongues before the night was through. I remember one night a girl from my school was getting all worked up in the ritual, and then she started having fits and screaming "Jesus is coming tonight! Jesus is coming tonight!" Well, apparently Jesus didn't come that night. Nevertheless, with my sheltered upbringing and impressionable mind I was pretty excited about the whole thing, and couldn't wait to tell my folks all about it when I got home. My mom got this horrified look on her face when I told her I wanted to go back, but by the time Summer of '72 rolled around, I had moved on to other things-- much to her relief, I think :)

[mwb970]

66. I agree. Reagan put us into a steep decline, and we've never fixed it.

We were already drifting downward (I noticed that Americans became perceptibly stupider during the 70s), but once he was put in office, holy cow! Look out below.

[HillWilliam]

142. I think it really started long before Raygun

In 64 the GOP made a deal with Satan and absorbed the Dixiecrats. They brought their own brand of hate-based "religion". In 74 the GOPers set about punishing anyone who was remotely involved with exposing and threatening to prosecute Nixon. In 94 the GOP brought in the rest of the religious fringes. In 2000, they got their dream candidate: one who could mouth a bunch of jeebus while committing acts of purest, criminal evil.

That rot goes deep. The Dixiecrats haven't gotten over losing the Civil War. The wackogelicals are bitter the rest of us refuse to succumb to their brand of insanity. The corporatists know damn well that sex and crazy sell (to wit: Faux Snooze).

I respect myself more than to associate with any of that sort of selfishness, bitterness, and unmitigated greed. The entire GOP is a mass of bitter, miserable people who won't be satisfied until the rest of us are as miserable as they are.

Fuck them with their own elephant.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hifiguy]

110. Pizza, please!!

Enjoy your stay. It will be short.

[BlueJazz]

111. How do you remove God ? I thought he/she was all powerful?

The rest of your post is unbelievable.

[maheanuu]

113. Sorry Lenny, but your Xtian Crap is just that

Pure, Unadulterated Crap!

I retired from the military in 1974 and at the time the so called "Army of God" had already started infesting the Armed Forces. I landed a bunch of them (the jeezbus phreaques) in the brig over a security violation. (Holding a religious meeting of all hands in a Secret security area). The Officer of the Deck tried to talk me out of it saying that it was going to make really big waves and ruin a lot of careers. I explained to him that if I were to break security I would lose my clearances and my rate and end up in prison for 20 years and I was not going to allow anyone else to break security regulations. I had already put in for retirement and the word had gotten out that a Chief had taken down a Destroyer on a security violation, and the God Squad was out for my scalp. I was placed on the "Project Transition" program where I spent 6 months never having to return to the base and my unit while I got paid by a civilian company and the Navy learning to be a civilian. The God Squad came looking for me and tried to get me pulled back to base where they could do some damage and possibly have my rate removed and my career destroyed. But thanks to a Lt. Cdr who had common sense and saw that the Reich Wing was starting to take over the military refused them and also he put in for retirement. As a disclaimer, I am an Athiest, I detest religions of all kinds and sorts, the people who believe (a word that means they do not have to prove anything) in Gawd or any of that other silly shit are morons plain and simple... I would take a communist or a Socialist (I am a Socialist BTW) over the idiocy and superstition that holds sway in the country of my birth today

"You could always try France."

I did, I now live in French Polynesia and pack a French Passport, French ID and French Drivers License. My medical care is the best in the world and I pay nothing for trips to Papeete for control of Cancer and the associated treatments and medicines. I do pay for other things and those payments are up front, difference is that at the end of the month I have a direct deposit returning 80% of monies dispensed for med care and medicines. Ain't Socialism Grand???

Gawd is Dead! Get used to it!!!

[russspeakeasy]

52. Just grasping at straws here, but isn't it partly due to the

"dumbing down" of America.
ie; Lack of independent study....headlines are the news....whoever shouts the loudest and most frequently wins....It might be that I am well into my senior years and doing what a lot of old people do, but I don't think so...The young have a lot of distractions and can only listen to the loudest
and most vile. Their parents are working to keep their family together and don't have the time, or energy to get involved with local or national politics, so they just go with the most repeated phrase;
ie: the debt ceiling is too high, the unemployed are lazy, democrats are ruining this economy, the financial collapse was caused by Obama. and on and on...
I hope I am wrong and this is just a temporary insanity phase..:hide: :hide:

[FSogol]

3. K & R. n/t

[muffin1]

6. Yep.

They used to be considered the fringe, now they're mainstream. Scary.

[nc4bo]

8. I can't believe the entire Republican Party is batshitcrazy.

Where are all the rational ones? Massive die off? The entire party converted to religious extremism?

I thought they only made up 1/3 of their base?

Perhaps they all moved to Indies?

Where did they go and why do they remain silent against this irrational segment of their party?

[muffin1]

18. Well, both parties have been moving steadily to the right.

It's only natural, I guess, that what used to be "the right" is now "the far right", and that's a pretty large segment now.

The ones we considered "moderate" a couple of years ago, have begun courting the far right in order not to be primaried.

We're in for one crazy ride.

:silly:

And we HAVE to keep our own party from moving any further in that direction. I would rather they move WAY to the left, but I don't see that happenin' any time soon.

[Horse with no Name]

80. It's more than that. It is a cataclysmic shift.

The far right crazies took over the republican party. But republicans are inherently bullies and the moderate centrist republicans took over ours and seek to marginalize US as the fringe and drive us out of our own party--and, might I add, they are succeeding.

[Art_from_Ark]

143. I think you've got that backwards

What used to be the "far right" (e.g. Goldwater) is now the "right" or even "center right". What used to be "moderate right" (e.g. Nelson Rockefeller, Everett Dirksen) is now "center" or even "center left".

[hifiguy]

28. Many of the old-line sensible Repubs were simply purged

at least here in Minnesota. If you weren't 100% anti-choice and didn't believe in their insane gawd you were simply run out of the party. Back in the mid-1990s the pukes primaried a solid, moderate Repub governor here for those very reasons. He won anyway - anything but overwhelmingly - and was re-elected Gov, but subsequently left the party.

[Fuddnik]

51. They ran all of the sane ones out in Florida.

And it's getting worse. The total loons are running the half-crazed tea-baggers out of the Tea Party, for not being crazy enough.

[MedicalAdmin]

57. Which is why we need to retake the local parties.

Heck I would probably be considered a republican if this were the 50's (except for that entire Jim Crow BS). Or maybe not, but I think I would have been able to work with that type of person. The current crop I will fight with every fibre of my being.

[Bette Noir]

79. No, the current crop of Republicans is way beyond what was "fringe" in the '60s.

My dad was the worst of the worst-- John Birch Society, American Independent Party, you name it-- and I read the pamphlets he left lying around the house. They all said America was better than other countries because of our financial equality, and our avoidance of torture. They also pushed a "Buy American!" breed of patriotism that has been forgotten nowadays. Far from wanting to assassinate police, they put "Support Your Local Police" stickers on their cars. It was a different world. They supported the space program as a matter of national pride, and wouldn't dream of cutting education.

And even the racists were ashamed of being racist, and hid their views, at least in California.

[BobbyBoring]

98. You got that right

They call Obama a liberal and a socialist (Among other things).

To them, he is!

[patrice]

11. Is this because people CAN'T or because they WON'T see through the bullshit?

And does the difference matter?

[dmosh42]

32. You have the correct answer! The country has become dumber than ever!

[patrice]

39. There is a point at which the stupid could achieve critical mass. I personally don't believe we're

there YET.

I still believe there is a difference between CAN'T and WON'T and discovering that difference begins with HONESTY, which is pretty frightening to lots of people, so they run and hide behind labels.

[patrice]

41. P.S. But I do believe that point is FAST approaching. nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

12. until the late 70's it was considered unseemly and fringe even in Evangelical circles

There were always a certain number of right-wing political/religious kooks even before the rise of the modern religious right. But they made even most "fundamentalist Bible Believing Christian" feel a bit uncomfortable. Prominent figures within the Evangelical movement knew that it would be considered poor taste to be too overtly political. How on earth did all of this become part of the mainstream of American political culture? It is truly mind boggling.

[woodsprite]

20. More important is how can we turn it back?

I don't know if we can put the 'genie back in the bottle'.

[JHB]

35. For one thing, drive wedges where you can...

For instance, one of their tactics is to call themselves "Christian" when in truth they only mean certain kinds of Christians: ones with the same sub-set of beliefs. Their public rhetoric may sound good to the broader range of Christians, who aren't really up to speed on what is said about them and their denomination.

Find out what Bachmann's church and Perry's preacher-palooza have to say about Catholics. And then make an issue of it, to the cadidates, to the media, to anyone you're talking to.

Repeat for Lutherans, Episcopals, non-fundy Baptists, etc. point out to people that when those guys say "Christian", they don't mean YOU.

People who might nod their heads in agreement with Bachmann or Parry over gays or abortion can get livid once you point out that they're on the "Satan" list too, and to the nutjobs they're just a useful idiot.

[mwb970]

73. You could also point out the many, many violations of Christ's teachings by conservatives.

Ask a right-wing extremist "Christian" why we hear endless blathering about the Ten Commandments from the Old Testament until we're ready to rip them to shreds ourselves, but nobody ever, EVER mentions or quotes the Sermon On the Mount, supposedly the centerpiece of Christ's message. "Blessed are the peacemakers"? That doesn't sound like any republican I know of. Nor do these quotes:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery."

"but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

"And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?"

(I'm not really sure what that last one means; I just like the sly reference to "publicans"!)

[hifiguy]

29. Falwell and Robertson. nt

[MedicalAdmin]

59. How did it happen? One word - money. n/t

[Hissyspit]

112. Silent majority becomes less of a majority and so becomes less silent. I think it is last gasp,

myself.

Americans are becoming less traditionally religious (not necessarily less spiritual), some rise in this generation of atheism and agnosticism and alternate spiritualities from the traditional mainstream.

[Armstead]

13. Great Post.....Welcome to The Future

We did have some nutjobs that got close to the white house before. Barry Goldwater was a stalking horse...But by today's standard, Goldwater would almost be considered a moderate Republican.

Occasionally, I get a sudden realization that I'm living in what I used to consider the Distant Future. Geeze, the year 1990 seemed far off in the future.

I imagined that in the future we'd be flying around in jetpacks, the whole world would look like Futurama and we'd all be wearing shiny plastic weird clothing....Then I look around and see that in some ways things are physical very different -- like sprawl -- but in general it looks much the same.....In some ways, people look basically the same, but many look more like they stepped out of Mad Max or stepped or Clockwork Orange.

Politically and economically though I was of mixed minds. being a liberal (more radical than today) I saw things that were both unsettling and optimistic. In some respects, it seemed we were moving towards a new Age of Enlightenment in which old political systems would make way for a raised consciousness. But there was also the possibility that the seeds of right-wing fascism and a Corporate State were being sown instead.

I guess we got a little of both, in a strange brew. On the positive side, a racially mixed couple, and a Black president would have seemed inconceivable....On the negative side, the fact that we would make so much progress -- and then see a resurgence of racism and religious bigotry.

But what really seems strange is that things that are accepted as "normal" today would have been considered outrageous back then. The whole Willingness to Destroy the Middle Class would have seemed like a bad futuristic novel back then. The obscene concentration of wealth and growing disparity between the incomes of a few and the many would have seemed impossible. Outsourcing the US economy would have been thought of as Unpatriotic.

That's the absolutely amazing part. The fact that so many Americans would happily allow themselves to be led to the slaughter would have been inconceivable. The Angry Blue Collar Union Liberal has been replaced by the Angry Blue Collar TeaBagger who cares more about protecting the wealthy than himself or his friends in the majority.

[EC]

90. I was just thinking the other day, that what is happening in

London reminded me of "Clockwork Orange".

[woodsprite]

19. The Repub party is making a laughingstock of being Christian.

I just said that to hubby this morning. Unfortunately, they have a lot of help from their constituents. It's like these fruitcakes are crucifying and mocking Jesus all over again.

I'm not ultra religious (liberal Presby here), but that is what I woke up thinking this morning after reading about the whole group of them saying they were told by God to run.

[EC]

91. I just thought with all of them saying God told them to run

God must be bored and is setting up an entertaining pit fight...or they are all hearing from different Gods?



On edit: they are making a laughing stock of their faith, of religion too. I'm noticeing many young people ditching it. If they grew up in it, they are leaving and many turn really wild. I'm guessing that in another generation if they keep it up, they'll not have a church.

[dgibby]

92. I was a liberal Presbyterian too,

until I found out I had more in common with George Carlin that I did John Calvin, so now I'm a Carlinist instead of a Calvinist.

[Cleita]

21. Yes, I remember those days and back then the Republican Party,

as it stands today, would have been investigated for gangsterism, corruption and other criminal activity.

[get the red out]

23. You nailed it

I just look around all the time thinking "but this stuff, these people used to be SERIOUS". Agree or disagree with politicians, they came off as serious people when I was young. My Dad was always spat out the word "actor" in reference to Ronald Reagan, but these clowns aren't even in the same league as an actor, but we are supposed to play the game that a bunch of complete nuts are SERIOUS.

This country has turned into a cartoon. I expect to hear the Warner Brothers theme song at the end of news reports at any time now.

[Cleita]

24. That cartoon song should be used by Jon Stewart

when he covers stories about these people. Maybe the low information voter will get the idea that these people are nuts.

[DirkGently]

25. Crazy is IN. (nt)

[RevStPatrick]

26. I started reading Stinky's OP...

...and the VERY FIRST thing that popped into my head was Heinlein's "crazy years."
Actually, I've been thinking that a lot lately.

[moondust]

27. Reinforcing fanaticism and hate daily...

[ecstatic]

30. I don't think Perry will go as far as some pundits think...

I look at him and see a snake oil salesman. He comes off as far more of a phoney than Romney. I saw a clip of him saying he prays for Obama every night--um... yeah right! I think Americans will see through his BS.

As far as Bachmann goes--she's trying to play super coy and careful. Eventually her mask will slip. There's no way she will get the nomination!

[justabob]

50. i hope not,

but do not underestimate him. I was hoping he would run, if only to get him out of Texas, but then terror takes hold and I realize that he COULD win. We will not survive as a country if he does. I don't think any of the others can pull it off though, we shall see.

[krabigirl]

77. 2nd

[CanonRay]

31. I'm astonished by how fast it all went in the crapper

Between Reaganomics and the religious zealotry, we're being led to our destruction.

[Paladin]

33. Well Said, STC.

This country bears scant resemblance to the one I grew up in. And I don't see any individuals or groups capable of stopping the downhill slide we're in. Very sad....

[MedicalAdmin]

62. We are all capable of stopping it...

It wasn't the founding fathers who magically caused independence, it was regular folks like us getting together and fighting back....


... of course I say this realizing that there are no (that I'm aware of) revolutions that have succeeded without outside help. THe USA, for example had the French....

[FormerDittoHead]

34. I think it's less religion and more "respect". They want the "respect" they don't get from us.

To many people, religion is not just a given belief in what happens after you die.

To many people, religion is more than just a set of rules of conduct to follow.

To many, religion is their society, in most every way you can define that word.

It is their parents, their family, their neighbors, their history as a people, their world. I would remind you that the Scopes "monkey" trial and Prohibition happened in the lifetimes of many people's grandparents (my father was in his mid 20's when prohibition started).

I'm on the same page with others who question the bible, its origin, its interpretation(s) and the people who act citing it as their inspiration.

But at the same time the reason, I believe, that many Christians view criticism of their beliefs as an indictment of their entire world, including their personal judgment to believe in Christ.

That's why, I believe, they get so "offended" when you question their beliefs, if you saw that Bill Maher documentary.

When you say you don't believe in Christ, for example, to them, you're saying you don't RESPECT *them*, their parents who taught them Christ, their family, their community, everything.

We have a lot to offer Christians, but we haven't figured out a way to reconcile our support for abortion and gays with them, and so we must let Republicans maintain a virtual monopoly over this voting block.

worth reading:
JIMMY CARTER, MICHELE BACHMANN AND THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT:
http://www.thefireinsider.com/?p=694

[patrice]

38. "Respect" This is insightful.

We never get a chance under calm conditions to sit down together and to tell each other about ourselves, i.e why each of us thinks-feels what what we think-feel. We're ALWAYS sitting and listening to others TELL us what we think-feel. Never any proactive longitudinal work on our own relationships, just the pro forma stuff that goes under the "leadership" of various organizations with their own agendas.

One important difference is that for people who are deeply into diversity & collaboration (a la W. Edwards Deming or Paulo Freire or John Dewey), those challenges to others, which make others feel they are not being respected, ARE a form of respect. They are the coin of the diversity realm. It's an invitation to be who you are amongst others who are who they are, not this oversimplified bullshit, full of false dichotomies, that we are fed because we are too afraid to face this stuff individually.

If someone CAN'T do it, if they CAN'T meet that challenge "Who ARE you, really! Why do you think this or that? What do you know?", they disrespect themselves and then solve that particular VITAL threat by projecting it onto others.

People who care about diversity and egalitarian collaboration don't want conformity because they KNOW that any whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That's actually the way that the human mind-heart works and the door to this particular perception was opened a long time ago by Fritz Perls in his works about Gestalt psychology. And of course Perls stood on the shoulders of other giants.

There are people who know these things and then there are people who don't know and the ones who don't know are threatened, UN-NECESSARILY, by those who do see it and HAVE experienced it personally. That threat of disrespect is un-necessary because Gestaltists aren't trying to change anyone or prove any one wrong or take anything away from anyone. What we're REALLY interested in is the honesty necessary to maximize the Gestalt that arises from ***DIFFERENT*** things (persons) HONESTLY affirming a functional relationship. These days that impulse gets hung with PC bullshit about "third" whatevers as yet another means to run and hide from the truth.

[HillbillyBob]

46. They show ultimate disrespect for us by telling us we are abomination

attack us physically and spiritually but if we speak up we are persecuting them!
I not only have no respect for them I FEAR them getting anymore control than they have, they represent some 70 million Americans who vote as a block for the most part after the politicians get them fired up over queers and jews and gasp immigrants or 'other'!
I hve had some rather serious run ins with these a**holes, I now keep a loaded shotgun behind the front door..not that I expect it where I live now, but that knowing it happened elsewhere where I felt relatively secure. We are in the sticks and any police/sheriff response would be a minimum of 1/2hr.

[patrice]

69. I know, HBB, because I do know them personally and have known them most of my life.

Pretty sure I was hearing them in the back of the room last night at Kevin Yoder's townhall. You actually can hear the hate no matter what they are saying.

I am afraid these people ARE crazy and that they will acquire synergy from all of our other problems.

I have to fight my own fear.

[catrose]

95. My parents were Baptist, but I attended parochial schools

And based on what I learned at church and school, I don't know how a Christian can be a Republican. Obviously I'm very alone in that belief.

And as an adult, I haven't been able to attend a Baptist church without wondering what the eff happened to them.

[sinkingfeeling]

36. I also can no longer recognize the USA. 50 years ago, people would be laughing their heads off at

these idiots, not taking them as viable candidates for anything!

[deaniac21]

37. Eisenhower may have fired a handgun.

[eridani]

133. True, but he never wore his old uniform as a civilian n/t

[ChoppinBroccoli]

40. In the country in which I was raised, Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann would be . . .

...........considered unqualified to run the Slurpee machine at 7-11, let alone a country.

[Cleita]

43. They still would be unqualified to work at 7-11

or McD's or any other entry level job. Maybe we need that as a criteria. Can they hold down an entry level job in the private sector before they run for office?

[glinda]

42. I think testing them for chemicals be it drugs or mercury is in order just to rule out those things.

[jbfam4]

53. tests needed

No one should be allowed to run for Congress until they are tested for Psychological Disorders and results are made public.

[glinda]

105. That won't happen.

[joanbarnes]

47. My thoughts exactly. Why does anyone pay any attention to these nuts?

[Romulox]

48. This is the fruit of "Triangulation". Most of the "mainstream" Republicans of old have repositioned

themselves as "New Democrats", while the old guard of the traditional Democrats have been displaced.

[Stinky The Clown]

115. That's one of the biggest truths in this entire thread.

[eridani]

134. Indeed. All the Democrats became Republicans, and all the Republicans

--became batshit crazy.

[Fuddnik]

49. Today's NYT. "Rick Perry's Unanswered Prayers.

That explains it. "God is too busy with the upcoming Cowboys football season and solving the problems that Tony Romo has reading a blitz"


August 11, 2011, 8:30 pm
Rick Perry’s Unanswered Prayers
By TIMOTHY EGAN


A few months ago, with Texas aflame from more than 8,000 wildfires brought on by extreme drought, a man who hopes to be the next president took pen in hand and went to work:

“Now, therefore, I, Rick Perry, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas.”

Then the governor prayed, publicly and often. Alas, a rainless spring was followed by a rainless summer. July was the hottest month in recorded Texas history. Day after pitiless day, from Amarillo to Laredo, from Toadsuck to Twitty, folks were greeted by a hot, white bowl overhead, triple-digit temperatures, and a slow death on the land.

In the four months since Perry’s request for divine intervention, his state has taken a dramatic turn for the worse. Nearly all of Texas is now in “extreme or exceptional” drought, as classified by federal meteorologists, the worst in Texas history.

(snip) more

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/rick-perrys-unanswered-prayers/?ref=opinion&nl=opinion&emc=tya1

[NewJeffCT]

55. The evangelicals breed like rabbits

and, since Reagan started paying some homage to them, they've started turning out in elections in attempts to get their way on pet issues like abortion & gay marriage... before Reagan, they did not turn out nearly as heavily.

Now, they are a driving force in the Republic party, and since they (Republicans) have control over most of the media, it is now accepted.

[kwolf68]

60. I am believing religion is a disease

I have a friend who has NEVER been political. In fact, he was actually quite curious at one time, always asking people their opinions, rarely sharing his own...I really appreciated his tact on things.

However, a few years ago he found religion...today he is a far-right nut...posting shit all over facebook about how Obama is the devil,etc., etc...

he no longer asks questions...he is no longer inquisitive, now all he does is spout off and preach.

This dude is exhibit A of religions total failure to do anything more than create a sea of idiocy.

[EFerrari]

61. I can't tell you how many times I've thought the same thing.

It's like that nightmare where your house isn't your house and your family isn't your family. lol

[patrice]

72. Funny you should mention that. After years of dreaming about "houses", I stopped for

several years and now I have started again . . . always these darkish kind of odd morphing houses.

[progress2k12nbynd]

63. Stinky, I've lurked for years and always loved your posts and I couldn't agree more...

I'm only in my early 30's, but in the country I grew up in, the last 10 and certainly the next 5 years of presidential candidates wouldn't have gotten near a campaign.

Bush: Being the spoiled son of a former president, which many failed businesses under your name, wouldn't have even gotten you into the primaries.

Obama: 700 days as a senator from a state with one of the most historically corrupt governments on the planet would not have even close to put you in the running.

Perry, Bachman, and the like: Standing on a stage debate after debate and focusing on issues like gay marriage and spending cuts which either have nothing to do with the nation's main problems or will actually make them worse, should make you the laughing stock of the political process.

I strongly believe we haven't had a serious, country-focused President in at least 30 years or more.

[Douglas Carpenter]

64. "The Republican Party fears its base. The Democratic Party loathes its base." - David Frum

of if it were only the other way around....

[mochajava666]

106. That is the first intelligent thing I've heard from Frum.

He is still an asshole, though. Just an asshole with a good point.

[Kablooie]

67. Maybe God is taking a vacation and temporarily let Rod Serling take over.

[Emit]

68. Oh, Stinky, you're spot on!

The same thoughts that you've summarized in your OP have been flying around in my own head. Been wondering if I was in an old Twilight Zone episode or something. You know the old adage, though: life is stranger than fiction. Yuppers!

[Horse with no Name]

70. It frightens me.

Also, it shows us that "teaching the test" does in fact dumb down future generations, just as was intended.
The lack of learned history is about to bite us in the ass.

I don't blame this on the teachers. At all.

[patrice]

74. So many families are so fucked up, make lots of mistakes in parenting, teachers are left

holding the bag (while the other means of dealing with the problems, churches, engage in mutual psychological ma$$$$$$$turbation), so teachers are left holding the bag and then they were given the worst tool imaginable, NCLB. My professors in my masters program used to say they thought it was intentional, in order to create pressure on jobs so everyone would obey out of fear and work for less. I used to think they were extremists, not so anymore, I'm SORRY to say.

[Horse with no Name]

78. Agreed. Teachers get left holding the bag for an entire fucked up society

They get blamed for the shortcomings of parents, the shortcomings of school administrators, the shortcomings of a government with agendas, and the shortcomings of a society in general.

Now in our infinite fucked up way...we are going to punish the teachers for problems of our own making.

It's the Amerikkkan way.

[patrice]

81. Yep! You have that right, HWNN!! The Amerikkkan Way!

I no longer say "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, even in public. This IS a man made hell, or at least a "purgatory" . . . it remains to be seen, in the not very distant future.

[patrice]

83. I also maintain there's a not insignificant Secessionist sub-strate there. Why else would Rick Perry

brandish a gun when he said Social Security and Medicare are "un-Constitutional"?

I think Secessionists are a small number in alliance with Libertarians, so they're getting more resonance and Palin/Bachman are living proof of that. It's all about factions either helping and/or using other factions right now. Not sure how much actual unity there is out there.

[irislake]

76. I sincerely believe that it makes absolutely no difference

who is president in the United States since they are only figureheads for the fascist elite.

I once thought it made a difference but by the time Obama was elected I knew nothing would change. The war machine and the banking cabal continues to murder and plunder the planet. Ralph Nader and Noam Chomsky are right about your one party fascist government.

I am a socialist but I think Ron Paul would be good for the country and the world because he would abolish the federal reserve and end the wars. The Democrats will destroy Social Security and Medicare and continue to give the rich elite obscenely low taxes and destroy what's left of the unions pretending to fight for them. Anybody who thinks otherwise is blindly optimistic.

As for Ron Paul he hasn't got a hope in hell and if by some fluke he got elected he would be assassinated --- like Kennedy who dared to defy the elite powers.

So I read about the idiots you might elect and think it is disgusting but irrelevant. You might as well rise up and try a second revolution. They are ready for that but --- what the hell ---- the way things are going you have nothing to lose.

We have Harper in Canada and he appears to be intelligent but he is 100% fascist and a George Bush clone. So what difference does an idiot leader make?

[RaleighNCDUer]

82. And this is entirely because of the Koch funded DLC.

By moving the Dems into traditional Republican territory, they legitimized the for right

When the Dems becomes William F Buckley, Buckley's warnings that the Birchers have no place in the Republican party come moot.

[on point]

85. Yep, many repukes are to the right of insanity these days...

It is no accident that delusional thinking such as supply side economics, climate change denial and creationism are all found in the same population of wacko crazy religious fanatics.

It is also why it is impossible to reason with these people because logic and facts of not matter to them if they are in opposition to their belief and that is what makes them crazy. They are out of touch with reality and shouldn't be given the time of day.

It is also what makes them dangerous fascists, because they believe what they are TOLD to believe and cannot / will not check it against reality.

[liberal N proud]

87. They would have been run out of town for their extremisms

[young_at_heart]

88. Reagan brought fundamentalism to the White House

In the 1980s Ronald Reagan solidified conservative Republican strength by appealing to fundamentalist Christians. His "standards" became the conservative standard for social, economic and foreign policy issues and this 'model' has just continued to increase in power over the years.

[alsame]

94. Yep. And they invested in media consolidation, their own

universities, mentoring and grooming young people for public office.

[EC]

93. The only news media people I see, even saying they are

jokes is Tweety and Olbermann. I remember when Paulson ran, every news media place made sure to say he was a nut(and everyone knew he was a comedian). I heard some say Perot was a nut, but I guess what I'm saying is the news used to warn us about the nuts. Now they act as though these nuts are normal.


People likely believe that they would be told if someone is nuts, by the news or even the opposition.

[Doc Holliday]

99. It might pay to bear in mind

that the "nut" Perot garnered a significant percentage of the vote. Never underestimate the gullibility of your fellow citizens. That dropping of our collective guard gave us twelve years of Reagan/Bush and eight years of Bush/Cheney.

What keeps coming to mind these days as I survey the political train wreck this country has become is that old saying, "The more things change, the more they stay the same." I've been recently re-reading "Fear and Loathing In America" by the late Hunter S. Thompson, and his insights on the political process in the period of '68 - '74 (and his reactions to it) are not unlike what we are seeing today. Thompson was wrong on occasion, but even then he was spectacularly wrong...and he was the only political journalist of that era to see Jimmy Carter coming from a long way off. And all he had to deal with was the Old Guard-- Nixon, Goldwater, Humphrey, McGovern, et. al. We now have a much lower bar to limbo under candidate-wise, and a 24-hr. news cycle shrieking at us. Not to mention hate radio and Faust News making the insane seem acceptable.

As a Texan, I have little to say about Gov. Rick "Goodhair" Perry that is good, or even optimistic...and I truly wish that I did. His belief that the dynamics of climatology can be set aside by prayers for rain, his conviction that he alone is responsible for the relatively good employment picture here in Texas, his recent emphasis on divisive social issues, his persistent flip-flopping (which is never noted as such by the Texas media)....all this and much more leads me to believe that he would be an even more toxic choice for the Oval Office than was the last "Texan" to reside there.

What also comes to mind are Zappa lyrics-- specifically, "Flakes." Although FZ was talking mainly about the decline of American pride in workmanship, it can also be seen as a metaphor for the substitution of salesmanship for statemanship:

"I am a moron, and this is my wife
She's frosting a cake with a paper knife
All what we got here is American-made
It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed
Well, we don't get excited if it crumbles and breaks
We just get on the phone and call up some flakes
They rush on over, and wreck it some more
And we are so dumb we're lining up at their door..."

[on point]

108. Perry did not create jobs, he REMOVED them from other states

I wish people woud start challenging this idea he created jobs.

He did not CREATE a single new job. He moved jobs from other states by engaging in the race to the bottom.

That is not creating jobs.

[RagAss]

104. Follow the money. The "nuts" are filling the media's pockets.

[lunatica]

100. Actually it's an alternate universe switched on us while we slept.

We're the abnormal ones here.

[socialindependocrat]

102. If Adams and Franklin were alive today, tsk,tsk,tsk!!! n/t

[Major Hogwash]

107. At the end of the last century, the rapturists crawled out of the woodwork. It was predicted.

Based on the same reaction people had at the end of the 1800s and 1700s when rapture con artists took over the discussions about the world coming to an end.

Take someone like Huckabee, a close associate to Kenneth Copeland, who was mentored by John Hagee and Oral Roberts.

The easiest way to scare people is to tell them that Jesus is coming . . soon.
And that the entire world is going to end.
So, they break out their Bibles, and start to contemplate what their lives have been like so far, and in the Bible belt, very few of them are millionaires or even smart enough to hang on to a million dollars.
So, the choice is easy for them -- mix religion and politics and pray for jobs.
High paying jobs.
That even high school dropouts can get.
In Kansas.
In the winter.

It will never happen, but that's the way rapturists think.
And the electronic church has preached their message that way ever since 1982, when PTL was busted and little James Baker and Tammy Fay Baker were exposed as the frauds they were.
Loyal viewers continued to send them money, to save them from hell.
Jimmy Swaggart cried crocodile tears and admitted he sinned, still going strong today, almost 30 years later.

"Pray for me to win the election" was Bush's message in the South.
And at the end of the millenium, it was heard and believed by millions of people.

[callous taoboy]

109. It is the Wal-Martization of America. Cheap, plastic cock-suckers have a chance now.

[alp227]

114. Interesting analysis. I'm a bit confused by your comparison though and view on religion/candidates

I know that concerns about JFK's Catholic religion affected his 1960 campaign. Similarly, when Obama ran for president, absurdly false rumors flew around that Obama was a Muslim. In those cases those religions are more easy to be picked on. However, evangelical Christianity practiced by Perry and Bachmann have a more broad appeal to the average Joe. I mean, there's a reason why broadcast TV channels put on The 700 Club, Joyce Meyer and other paid megachurch religious programming on Sunday mornings and daytime in general.

[DaveJ]

120. Actually their religion isn't that bad -- that's the problem

Evangelicalism is like a super efficient form of Christianity on steroids. If I wanted to be a Christian I might pick that one. Problem is that with such an effective reality-deflector would come total nonsense from a political leader. Like all Republicans, but even more likely, these people would surely use war as a first resort to every problem. Not to mention leaving health care and the economy to faith.

[Hotler]

116. BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO! eom.

[pleah]

117. K&R

You fucking rock, Stinky!

[dash_bannon]

119. I remember that country...

I grew up there too.

What we have now is frightening. Michelle Bachmann and Rick Perry would never have been taken seriously. What's frightening is they are being taken seriously, and even scarier is they have potential to become president.

I can't see how American turned so far to the right and there's no backlash from the left. Maybe we progressives and liberals are really in the minority.

[PavePusher]

121. Heinlein may have had better precognition than anyone knew...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_This_Goes_On%E2%80%94

Edit: Oops, was badly beaten to it. I should have read past the O.P. before replying... Ah well, great minds and all that...

[spanone]

123. the more these types run, the more they become the norm

we're headed toward a theocracy

[pleah]

124. already done that

:blush:

[underpants]

125. Fox News chief -they are running the show and everyone is reacting to them

changed everything. Talk Radio on TV. Wrestling. Made up characters.

We all know that money runs the show (which is why the poor take so much....but are ummm still poor) but Fox News is T&A and makes money. Lots and lots of money. CNN wants to make that same amount of money. I guess none of their economic and financial experts informed them that the market for TV money *IS* a zero sum game. CNN has the two switched all around.

[Bozita]

127. Rec #200 - You earned it, Stinky!

Great stuff!

[GeorgeGist]

128. Reagan's Legacy.

He made stupidity acceptable.

[AlbertCat]

129. There has always been stupid...

.... but perhaps never so high up. And, even though Dems are certainly not the greatest thing since sliced bread, they have never had the stupid of a Bush (either one) or Reagan running the country... or at least pretending to.

The main difference now is religion. It's true. And the Repugs who act in charge are not. Someone else .... someone who is not stupid and knows what they are dong... usually runs things from an undisclosed location.
Now the crazies are getting hard to marginalize.

You know Sarah Palin or Michell Bachman haven't a chance. Not for the correct reasons (that they are unqualified) but because the good lo' boys of the RW are never gonna let such women get that close to power. But the men are scary!

[upi402]

132. I blame the media for instilling lunacy in us peons

we are easy to fool

[McCamy Taylor]

135. They are both "dumb" which is a necessary quality for a winning GOP candidate.

[Bluenorthwest]

136. Gee, Stink, I grew up watching George Wallace run for Pres.

Pat Buchanan. David Duke. The list is endless. I understand that straight whites on DU adore 'Uncle Pat' but those of us who endured years of his bigoted slanders do not see him as a sweet old man.

[Stinky The Clown]

139. By your statement, I am a fan of Pat Buchannan. I resent your saying that.

I am a straight white on DU. I do not adore Uncle Pat. Your statement about that was absolute.

Such unequivocal statements will not gain you any allies.

[NMMNG]

138. The country in which we were raised no longer exists

Maybe we, rather than the Teahadists, should be the ones rabbling in the streets about how we want to "take back our country".