Jared Lee Loughner was not a "teabagger," but that hardly matters

[LuckyTheDog]

It is very possible (likely, in fact) that the shooting in Arizona was not, in the truest sense, a political act. The shooter might have been responding to the voices in his head more than anything else. Sometimes nutty people turn their rage against folks in the public eye for no reasons that make sense to anybody else. That is probably the case here.

However, that does not let folks like the Tea Partiers, Sarah Palin and others off the hook.

We might reach the point where the vitriol leads to unambiguous acts of political violence. But long before that happens, there is the potential for over-the-top rhetoric to serve as the catalyst that inspires paranoid, unbalanced people to make our public officials the target of their rage. That's something that has worried me for a long time.

When Rush Limbaugh uses the word "terrorist" to describe Nancy Pelosi, I am not really all that worried that a Tea Partier will go gunning for her. I am more worried about the guy who thinks Rush is sending him signals through the fillings in his teeth.

Major broadcasters and other in the public eye have to keep in mind that they have big audiences and that those audiences include some unbalanced people. They should temper what they say so that they are not feeding the delusions of such people.

Sometimes, though, I think they really ARE sending out dog whistles to the unknown nuts out there.

[GSLevel9]

1. nor was he a lunatic liberal as some may claim.

He was sick. Really sick. At the same time he spouts "Gold Standard, Currency, Illegal Iraq War, Conspiracy Theory"

No logic, no sense. It's just sad, so sad.

[trayNTP]

4. He as an individual doesn't matter. Incidiary language in stressful times leads to this.

Talk of 2nd Amendment rememdies leads to 2nd Amendment remedies.

What he self-identifies with matters less than how a charged environment sparks a destructive response.

[DeadEyeDyck]

60. I think he is just a loonie

[valerief]

2. Uh, no, it was political. He didn't shoot a Wal-Mart cashier. nt

[GSLevel9]

6. read Loughners writings... there was no logic in what he did.

Maybe he did it because she misspelled his name and her husband faked NASA missions?

Read his posts on ATS.

[valerief]

48. I did. I wasn't able to read what I suspect was already scrubbed from the web.

Again, she didn't shoot a cashier. He shot a pol.

[kurosagi]

49. Loughner

...worked for Gifford's campaign in 2007. :/ That will cause them to point the finger at Dems, and that's unfortunate because he was just mentally unstable.

[valerief]

50. Worked for her? Got a link for that? I know he spoke with her at a local meeting. nt

[kurosagi]

53. here's the link

My roommate had debunked a claim of mine earlier with this link. http://forums.timesdaily.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6501027316/m/9112030109/r/2032030109

sucks. I'm gonna hear about this later I bet

[kurosagi]

54. hmm...

I just read into that more and it's WND! probably a butch of bunk. I'll see if I can find some other source. If not, may not be true.

[valerief]

57. No, a REAL link. Not a forum post with something from WorldNetDaily. nt

[kurosagi]

58. yep

that's what I said in my last reply. I'm not sure a reputable site exists with this information. I'm done looking. Hopefully my roommate doesn't turn up with something.

[valerief]

59. He didn't work for he. He spoke with her once and she sent him a form letter. nt

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

3. Coincidence this time... STOP THE NEXT TIME!!!!!!!!!!!

end of story.

[trayNTP]

9. I do not endorse coincidence theory.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

14. me niether.. but if some want to call it that... i just say '.. and next time?

[LanternWaste]

22. Neither do I....

Neither do I.... those pigeons randomly pooping on my car are evidence of a great disturbance in the hallowed halls of power...

[MineralMan]

5. If you shoot a member of Congress in public, it is political.

Every time. What his precise motivations were remains to be seen, but it was patently a political act.

[onenote]

7. At this point in time, I would characterize it as a political act but not necessarily a partisan one

As more evidence comes out, we may learn more about whether he had partisan political views or was lost in his own particular worldview.

[GSLevel9]

10. clearest sentence of the day... nt

[trayNTP]

13. In hindsight, it might not be "partisan" b/c he didn't plan to kill the Republican (the Judge) there

But in reality, he targeted a Democrat, which makes it partisan.

[walldude]

27. That "Republican" judge had just rendered a decision in

favor of Illegals over a rancher. He had been receiving death threats.

[trayNTP]

35. Understood, but "partisan" here is being applied to party affiliation, not political positions

[onenote]

31. he targeted a Democrat. What's not clear is whether her party affiliation mattered to him

or whether it was simply that she was his Congress person, he had a previous history with her, and she didn't share his crazy worldview. As I said, as the evidence comes out, those lines may become clearer (or not)

[trayNTP]

39. Good point. Maybe he was issue-oriented.

[emilyg]

15. +1

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. +1

[LuckyTheDog]

68. I disagree

If you shoot a member of Congress because you hate Democrats, want to launch a revolution, think health reform is an abomination or want to protest the size of the military budget, that is a political act.

If you shoot a member of Congress because the voices in your head tell you she is the devil, that's something else (IMO).

[EmeraldCityGrl]

11. We don't have enough information to assume what

his political leanings were. The FBI could have gathered a number of items
from his residence that we are not privy to. We also know nothing about his
parents and their affiliations if any. And most importantly his hard drive will
reveal the sites he spent the most time on and any postings he may have made.

[affrayer]

12. Okay, I'll Bite

Can you show us his political platform and how it differed from the teabaggers?

The one thing I know is that he was a "gold standard" kind of guy...just like Beck!

[GSLevel9]

16. he's also a "Bush, the War Criminal" type. Cited Geneva Convention

on ATS to call the illegal Iraq and Afghanistan invasions a "war crime"

Don't bother trying to find a vein of logic here. This guy is all over the place and belongs in a mental hospital.

[affrayer]

28. You have link and quote?

Right now right wingers are making all sorts of unsubstantiated claims to deflect attention from themselves.

[MilesColtrane]

56. Exactly.

If someone is hearing voices in their head urging them to kill, it doesn't matter if they think that voice is FDR or Ronald Reagan or Jesus Christ himself.

[emilyg]

17. The only thing we know

so far is that he is a sick young man.

[GSLevel9]

18. you MUST read his posts on ATS.

He's beyond sick, in a sad pathetic way. He's socially inept and believes himself to be intellectually superior while most believe him to be insane. In his mind he's a genius and people who come in contact with him think he's not.

This is a sad day, just as sad as yesterday.

[affrayer]

29. Do You Have a Link And Quote?

Right now right wingers are making all sorts of unsubstantiated claims to deflect attention from themselves.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[affrayer]

30. Not True

Slowly but surely the back story is coming out...the trick is to ignore the right wingers rush to deflect blame. Once passed that hurdle you may find the truth.

[affrayer]

24. Here's Some Proof Loughner Is Right Wing

http://www.newsweek.com/2011/01/10/jared-lee-loughner-s-mental-state.html">Jared Lee Loughner's Mental State

Loughner’s rambling Internet missives, says Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center, likely come from well known online sources of the radical right. Potok, who studies hate groups and hate speech, has combed Loughner’s sites and says his material on grammar, in particular, likely comes from the writings of the Milwaukee-based, far right activist David Wynn Miller. As Potok explains it, Miller “believes in a ‘truth language’ that can throw off the government. If you use the right combination of colons and hyphens you don’t have to pay taxes. Miller is virtually the only person who pushes these ideas on grammar, it’s a very unusual idea, even on the radical right.” For his part, Miller tells The Daily Beast/Newsweek that Loughner has never reached out to him, but that “I expect he’s been on my website… He’s just repeating things I’ve had up on my site the past 11 years.” Miller—who claims “the Feds monitor me 24/7” but haven’t contacted him about Loughner—says he suspects that Loughner could be a victim of an Air Force program on mind control (“he’s old enough to be in the program”—as were, he says, the Columbine shooters) but that he has likely been more influenced by television crime shows than anything else.

The cover up is in full bloom...

[GSLevel9]

25. poorly written article without foundation or the latest news from today.

[affrayer]

32. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Yes, your comment was poorly written and without anything to substantiate it...

[GSLevel9]

38. just read the ATS thread and you'll understand, the guy from SPLC too,

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GSLevel9]

41. not appreciated. nt

[Apollo11]

19. What makes the USA different from other western democracies

is that you have elected officials and political commentators who are regularly using language of death threats and violence when they are attacking their political opponents.

You know the list already. I am talking about "Reload" Palin, "Dead Man" Boehner, "Obama hitting the deck" Huckabee, "Armed and Dangerous" Bachmann, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh ... the list goes on.

This kind of hate speech is not normal in a healthy democracy and to my knowledge it does not happen in Great Britain, France, Germany, Holland, Canada, Australia ...

You also have a whole political movement (The Tea Party and the radical right) which is built on stoking anger and paranoia that the Federal Government is somehow a threat to America.

Obama became President by winning the 2008 election. But just a few months later the right-wing wackos (including senior Republicans) are talking about "taking our country back" --- as if the democratic process was not somehow a central part of how America is supposed to work.

All this angry rhetoric and violent imagery creates a climate of fear and promotes the idea that violence could be a legitimate means of pursuing political change.

In a country where mentally unstable loners and misfits can easily obtain semi-automatic firearms, you have created the conditions for what happened in Tucson on Saturday.

- Apollo11 (British guy, huge fan of Thomas Paine, not resident in the US)

[formernaderite]

33. it makes me very nervous when people start talking about

curtailing speech. Although I may have laughed when pundits wished Cheney dead, or Bush for that matter, it certainly din't mean I was going to run out and shoot either of them. This fear and fascination with pundits in the media voicing anything is ridiculous.... No one but an insane person is affected...and who wants to live their life in silence because there are a small percentage of nuts. Freedom is messy and dangerous. Sure, under a totalitarian system, we'd find ourselves safe from one another...but at what cost?
Sorry, but the old hippie in me is feeling his armhairs standing up.

[Apollo11]

51. Inciting violence against elected officials should be treated as a threat

In most democratic countries, hate speech and incitement to violence can lead to criminal prosecutions. And wackos cannot purchase semi-automatic firearms.

Ideally, the Republican Party would police its own candidates so they stop spreading hateful garbage that could incite violence against Democrats.

Talk radio and TV commentators should be regulated to prevent hate speech.

Encouraging domestic terrorism makes them as big a threat to America as Osama Bin Laden.

[Mike 03]

20. Thank you. I tried to make this point yesterday but was totally ignored and shunned.

Kick and rec.

[Mike 03]

21. Please read, digest, and think about what LuckyTheDog is saying.

This is exactly what is happening, and my gratitude for this post is humongous.

Thanks

[LuckyTheDog]

61. Thanks for the support

I really do think folks like Rush say what they say hoping to inspire people like Jared Lee Loughner -- people who are mentally ill and not connected to any group.

Loughner and his ilk give the right-wingers a valuable amount of plausible deniability. Palin, Limbaugh, etc., can say: "Oh, come on, this guy is just a nut. He is delusional. The people I REALLY represent would never do that. Loughner is not one of my people."

It's crap, of course, but it's hard to prove that it is crap.

[Catherina]

23. Rec'd n/t

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jvanm]

34. Mother Jones article on Loughner motives, Alex Jones rant links

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message

http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2011/01/10/video-alex-jones-and-waking-life-jared-loughners-lucid-dreaming-connection/

[TBF]

36. How can we say either way whether he was a "teabagger" - do we know that yet? nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

47. Well, he hasn't even mentioned them once in all of his posts to various internet sites

Most teabaggers boast how they are part of this or that "Freedom" or "Patriot" group. With all the stuff that's coming out about this guy, we've seen nothing about him being interested in anything but his own world viewpoint, not others.

This kid was anti-social loser with no seeming interest in outside groups other than the voices in his head.

[Whisp]

42. I haven't heard anything today about the other possible suspect...

the older guy that was on the scene or running from the scene.

I think I saw a still of his pic on CNN yesterday, but nothing much about that today.

[cherokeeprogressive]

44. You haven't heard anything about him today because he stopped being a suspect yesterday.

He was a taxi cab driver who went into the Safeway with Loughner because he didn't have change for Loughner's cab fare.

No involvement. The Sheriff said so yesterday afternoon.

[Whisp]

45. okay, thanks for info.

hard to keep up sometimes.

[cherokeeprogressive]

46. You're Welcome. I know it's hard to keep up with all the conflicting information

being tossed out there from so many different directions.

Peace

chris

[Bluebear]

43. How do you know he "was not a teabagger"?

[GSLevel9]

52. did you read the whole thread? nt

[Bluebear]

65. Yes I did. The question was not answered. nt

[LuckyTheDog]

71. No affiliation with any Tea Party group (nt)

[Mimosa]

55. "sending out dog whistles to the unknown nuts out there."

If it's not about politics why did loughton stalk and focus upon a relatively unknown Congresswoman? Who incidentally had been targeted on a graphic at 'SarahPac'.

[LisaL]

62. From the information we have he might have been upset

with Rep. Giffords since 2007, when he went to the meeting and didn't like the way she answered his question.

[Mimosa]

64. Oh, he didn't like her answer.

Shhot her and kill everybody he can. That makes sense.

Hatred is evil.

Who the hell is going to want to run for Congress if doing so makes him or her as well as their families TARGETS?

[datasuspect]

63. the act of attempted political assassination is political by its very nature

it's like saying that nuns aren't religious.

[LuckyTheDog]

70. As I mentioned above

If you shoot a member of Congress because you hate Democrats, want to launch a revolution, think health reform is an abomination or want to protest the size of the military budget, that is a political act.

If you shoot a member of Congress because the voices in your head tell you she is the devil, that's something else (IMO).

[Rex]

66. I think you are completely wrong and it was a political act in response

to hate media and hate groups.

[wiggs]

67. Agree. RW is willing to use hate and fear and violent talk to galvanize support and

raise money. This event, or the next one, is considered the cost of political warfare that they can explain away or smooth over. Can't let that happen.

[LuckyTheDog]

69. As usual, I missed the deleted stuff...

... and am curious as heck about what was deleted.