Any form of a debt ceiling passes Obama/Democrats win Republicans/Tea Party lose

[wndycty]

The teabaggers drew a line in the sand: NO RAISING OF THE DEBT CEILING!

Debt ceiling raised? They lose. There will be some on our side who will say we lost, they are wrong.

[Doctor_J]

1. There will be some on our side who would say

"any slashing of Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and other social programs will be a huge loss for Dems and America". they would be right.

[wndycty]

4. Well since that ain't FUCKING happening they can SHUT THE FUCK UP!

:kick:

[Forkboy]

20. Try the decaf.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grahamhgreen]

8. +1

[readmoreoften]

32. +1

[csziggy]

2. The only win/lose I am interested is if the country wins

I am tired of the "republicans win" or Democrats win" scenarios. I want to know if whatever passes (if anything ever does) will be good for our country and good for the people who live in it.

[denverbill]

7. +1, but if they don't make cuts, our credit rating is going to get slashed anyway.

That may not be much better than a default.

[csziggy]

21. Something needs to be done but a "cuts only" approach will not work

Without increased revenues - more taxes - we will still be in trouble.

The problem right now is that the Tea Party Republicans belong to the "starve the beast" club. They want to cut off revenues - which they have been very successful at doing for the last thirty years - and use the resulting shortages to justify cutting government programs.

Most post above though was about the "they lose/we win" attitude. This is not about one party winning or losing. It is about making our country work.

The majority of Americans want the social programs that the Grover Norquist crowd wants to get rid of, so our congress critters should figure out how to get as much of those programs funded as possible. The majority of Americans want to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan and the savings of doing so would help to cut the deficit and fund social programs. The Grover Norquist crowd needs to decide who they are going to listen to - one power hungry asshole or the people who actually cast the votes that put them into office.

[denverbill]

47. I can't argue that.

Repeal the Bush tax cuts, raise the capital gains tax rate back to 20%, and end the cap on wages for Medicare and SS and we'd be well back on a sound path. But none of that will be done with the teabaggers running the House, and frankly, I don't think any of that would pass a Democratic controlled Congress, since we couldn't even get rid of the stinking Bush tax cuts last year.

[csziggy]

50. Yep, and that is why I am depressed this week

If we had Democrats that would fight to keep the things that Democrats in the past fought to get passed, we'd already be in better shape than we are now. If the stimulus had not included tax breaks and had included more for rebuilding infrastructure and creating jobs, the economy would be better now and revenues would be higher. If the Bush tax cuts had been allowed to expire as intended at the end of last year, revenues would be higher and the deficit would not be as big.

But the Democrats - whichever ones we want to blame - did not fight hard enough for those things. And Democrats get blamed for ALL the Bush deficits and the bad economy no matter what the reality is.

I just hope the voter suppression laws and vote machine rigging do not hand the Tea Party Republicans a big victory next year. I'm worried at the number of DUers, myself included, that are unhappy with the Democratic Party and Obama and what that may do to reduce Democratic turnout. If I were physically capable of working this election cycle, I would drag my disenchanted ass out to get out the vote, even if I am not that happy with the Democratic candidates.

[sabrina 1]

28. Cuts in Government spending are fine. Cuts to SS

are not cuts in Government spending, they are a default on the Govt's debt to a creditor, the American people and are NOT fine.

[Liberalynn]

39. +1 Million

[denverbill]

48. Couldn't agree more.

As I posted above, I'd prefer tax increases, and for cost cutting, end the wars, cut military spending, and close military bases abroad.

[FBaggins]

3. I'm all for raising/lowering the bar to try and spin...

...but that's taking it a bit too far, wouldn't you say?

[wndycty]

5. The debt ceiling debate was never the place to debate other issues

The debt ceiling debate was always about whether or not to raise it. If it is raised we win.

[FBaggins]

18. Sorry... that's nonsense.

Their plan was always to use the debt ceiling deadline(s) as a tool to force other things that they want. It was never an end unto itself.

They're going after policy and spending/taxes and they're holding this hostage to get democrats to play ball.

Your position is like claiming that a kidnapper holding a child for ransom really just wants to kill the child. It doesn't matter how much we pay him, we "win" as long as he doesn't do that... even if we pay him millions and he holds onto the child to try again next year.

Giving them some/all of what they want while they only raise the ceiling enough to bring it back up before the election is in no sense a victory.

[AndyTiedye]

29. In This Case The Ransom Goes UP After they Kill the Hostage

If you think the "deals" we're being offered now are bad, wait until you see what we will be forced to swallow after we default.

[Drale]

6. Unless Social Security and Medicare are completely dismantled,

No matter what happens now the Democrats have already won.

[wndycty]

9. Exactly!

:kick:

[sabrina 1]

30. If there are any cuts to any of the Social Safety net programs

the Republicans win. SS is NOT part of the Govt's spending. Cuts in that program will RAISE the debt. Which is what Republicans want. If Democrats give them any cuts at all, they win.

[readmoreoften]

33. If by Democrats you mean elected elites and not the Democratic voters, I'd say you're right.

The Democrats will "win" and the American people will suffer under their cowardly, selfish acts.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. "Any" form?

A bigger pile of bullshit could never be constructed in reality.

Any?

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Doctor_J]

13. Yes, the bar has been lowered pretty much to ground level

If the president doesn't trip and fall on way to the podium, and doesn't piss his pants during the appearance, HE WON!!!!11!

[wndycty]

15. Considering how much of mutiny the teabaggers will stage, yes it's a victory

:kick:

[MadHound]

17. Victory for who? Obama?

That's nice, but it will be a huge loss for the American people. I'd rather see we the people win than any politician.

[FBaggins]

19. The tea party "mutiny" is part of their game.

It allows the supposedly "reasonable" republicans to pretend that their hands are tied. "Oh! We wish we could compromise on this, but then we would lost that side of our caucus and the bill still wouldn't pass. I'm afraid that the compromises will all have to come from your side of the aisle" :sarcasm:

[sabrina 1]

36. Why aren't Democrats staging a mutiny. Apparently

that is a successful strategy. Compromise fails as we have seen.

Any cuts to SS is a win for Republicans. Using the debt ceiling to accomplish that, should never have been allowed.

The Govt's spending has zero to do with SS. Why is it even being discussed? The minute it was mentioned as part of these discussions, the Republicans already won.

Nice try to attempt to turn a potential disaster for the must vulnerable Americans a 'win' for Democrats. This is not a game, people's lives are at stake.

I'm no longer interested, like so many people now, in which team 'wins'. We the people want the PEOPLE to win. And if that doesn't happen, whoever is responsible will pay a huge political price.

[Doctor_J]

37. The teabaggers are going to "mutiny"?

what do you mean by this?

Edit: They don't have enough votes to kill the Boner plan, so voting "no" is for show only. They're still going to vote against any measure tha Obama favors, as are the rest of the Repukes, so that's not really a mutiny, and they're not going install Cantor as speaker in place of Boner. So what's this "mutiny" of which you speak?

[Autumn]

23. Nothing like low expectations

but hey, you go with what you got.

[MadHound]

25. That's not just low expectations,

That's the expressed desire to throw the vast majority of Americans under the bus in order to claim victory for Obama. That's beyond repugnant.

[Parker CA]

12. Can the same be said for the fact that both plans have zero revenues? That's no win. nt

[wndycty]

14. The debt ceiling debate should have never been about that.

Oh and by the way don't expect the Bush tax cuts to be extended.

[MadHound]

16. No, the debt ceiling debate should be about raising the debt ceiling, and only about that

This false crisis comes from 'Pugs linking budget cuts to hiking the debt ceiling, and Democrats going along with the madness. We should either have a clean bill on hiking the debt ceiling, or Obama should use the 14th amendment solution. Anything else is a loss for the American people.

[Parker CA]

22. It shouldn't have been, you're right. But due to a lack of leadership across the party it became

just that, so to consider this a win in any sense of the word is looking at only a partial list of real facts, IMO.

As for the Bush tax cuts. We've seen how that went down last time, so I won't believe its a done deal until they're actually finished and no more hostages have been exchanged for their continuation.

[totodeinhere]

24. Your OP is misleading. Only a few fanatics are saying "no raising of the debt ceiling."

Most of them including the GOP leadership say they want to raise the debt ceiling with conditions such as cuts in spending equal to or greater than the amount the debt ceiling is raised. IMO, if they raise the debt ceiling and cut spending but don't add any additional revenue such as in the Reid plan, it is a big win for the baggers. There is no other way to spin it.

[damntexdem]

26. Nonsense. Teabagger demands have pushed the entire debate to the right.

If Dems cave on a "plan" that trades major cuts for raising the debt ceiling, teabaggers win.

[readmoreoften]

35. +1.

[Doctor_J]

41. And the prez had a chance to drag it back to the center (not left)

but couldn't or wouldn't.

[PA Democrat]

27. "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."

[readmoreoften]

38. They don't even know what winning is anymore. Winning is pyrrhic victories.

If winning is getting Obama reelected so he can privatize education and cut social security, then I don't want to win anymore.

[markpkessinger]

34. Zero revenues is a loss for the entire country...

...so I don't really give a shit which party is perceived to have gained the momentary political advantage.

[EFerrari]

40. That's very nice for them. What about us?

[markpkessinger]

42. And what, exactly, will we have won?

If the ultimate deal that is reached contains cuts to SS/Medicare/Medicaid, or if it contains zero revenue increases, what exactly will we have won?

And what will the Tea Party have lost? After all, they managed to pull the entire discussion onto their turf.

That's a pretty twisted definition of "victory" if you ask me.

[PVnRT]

43. I guess that's all that matters, huh?

"WOOOO!! MY TEAM WON!!! GO TEAM GO!!"

I mean, who cares about the consequences to the economy, or the poor, or anything else, all that matters is that your team wins. Pathetic.

[TheKentuckian]

44. I don't agree but even if I could it would appear the people are going to get dusted.

The "game" isn't really important.

[mmonk]

45. A political Pyrrhic one.

They will have gotten more cuts which will hurt people, the economy, and further dismantling of the public square. There is no victory in this for the American people.

[H2O Man]

46. I agree 100%.

[KG]

49. !

:rofl:

[marmar]

51. A Pyrrhic victory

If giving in on programs that should not even be up for debate, just so we can say we didn't give a fringe group of crazies EVERYTHING they want, is what passes as a victory these days, this country is 40 minutes past Completely F**ked.