The recently re-habbed foreclosed house next to to mine

[MineralMan]

has finally sold to an owner-occupant. Yay! I haven't met the new owner yet, but probably will in a few days. I'm excited. I was so hoping that it wouldn't be a rental, and now it won't. It's been vacant for two years now, and was re-habbed by a new owner last Fall.

[Crazy Dave]

1. Good luck...hope it's a good neighbor

We now have four vacant houses on my road up from two last year. No one has been moving in for over two years, just more that keep getting kicked out on the street.

[sharp_stick]

2. Excited huh?

Just wait until they move in the drum set, amps and extra futons for the stay-overs. Oh can't forget they'll be digging a the big-ass firepit in the back yard where they'll have all night parties on Tuesday because they work nights through the weekend. Either that or all the windows get foiled and there's a bunch of extra power cables running into the basement creating one hell of a lot of light from behind that foil. ;-)

Just kidding of course, I hope they turn out to be great. Nothing worse than a vacant house, we have two of them on our block and they quickly become run down and drag the rest of the values with them.

[MineralMan]

4. Well, actually, I think it's a young Hmong couple with a couple of

kids, so I doubt any of that will be happening. They looked at the house the day before it sold. They're great, and they have great family gatherings with lots of wonderful food. Neighbors are usually invited. So, I'll be making friends.

What you describe sounds like the typical renters around here. That's why I was hoping for an owner-occupant. I share a driveway with the house, too, so...

[SoCalDem]

48. No, those are MY neighbors

:grr:

[grasswire]

3. hey, renters need housing too

I know you know that.

[MineralMan]

5. I do know that, yes. It's just that I'd prefer that the owner live

in the house. More stability and generally a better neighbor, overall. There are only a few rental homes on this block. No real problems, for the most part, although there's one house that has altogether too many cars stopping, then leaving again in two minutes. Something's going on there, and it's probably drugs.

[grasswire]

6. Respectfully...

...and I don't mean to make an issue of this because I know that you are a good person, but it really is a bit insensitive to millions and millions of renters for a home owner to say what you are saying on a progressive message board. It changes my opinion of you, sorry to say.

[MineralMan]

11. I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't have anything against

renters, and have had renters living near me all my adult life. Most were fine people and good neighbors. All things considered, though, I'd still prefer an owner-occupied home across a shared driveway from me. There are many reasons. Shared maintenance costs. Shared snow removal. Many things.

It's not a social issue at all. It's a practical one. It's a lot easier to discuss something like seal-coating a shared driveway with the neighbor than trying to get a landlord to join in. It's a lot easier to deal with any number of property-specific issues with an owner who lives next door than with a landlord who doesn't. It doesn't really have to do with the people who live there. It has to do with the convenience of dealing with property issues.

The new owner could be an asshole, too. I doubt it, if the people who looked at the house the day before are the new owners. But, that's a possibility.

[Pithlet]

16. My next door neighbors are renters and are great neighbors

But I wish they owned the home for one reason. I know the likelyhood that they'll be gone within year is pretty high. This property has been a rental owned by the same management since we've lived here, and it's always had a high turnover rate, rented often to transplants it seems because many have out of state plates when they move in. None have ever stayed longer than a year, and some stay even shorter. If my neighbors were at least long term lesees who intend to stay permanently, it would be better. I know you're getting a lot of crap for your post about renters, and I can understand why. I was a renter and there's always the chance I could be one day again, and I don't think there's anything wrong with renters themselves, so I understand the defensive response. But I can also understand your point of view a little bit, too. It always bums me out a little every time the neighbors next door move yet again. Of course, owners aren't a guarantee of great neighbordom, either. We aren't at all friendly with the neighbors on the other side who own and have lived here as long as we have.

[Arkansas Granny]

27. I am a renter and I understand what you are saying. There are always exceptions,

but as a general rule, property owners make better neighbors than renters. On my street, the rental properties as much more likely to need landscaping or maintenance done at any given time than the houses where the where an owner lives.

[locahungaria]

30. If you don't have anything against renters....

you should have never made mention of them in your OP. It smacks of broad-brushing, knee-jerk bigotry.

Some things are better left unsaid.

[MineralMan]

31. Thank you for your advice.

I should have said "landlords" instead. That's what the problem really is in my situation. You have a nice day, won't you?

[Horse with no Name]

39. Having been a renter in a state where renters really don't have many rights

I can't tell you how many thousands of dollars of MY money has gone into rent houses upgrading because the OWNER was a fucking deadbeat who wouldn't spend money to fix HIS house and was content enough to let the house fall down around my ears. In fact, my neighbors were grateful that his idiot ass moved out and I moved in--said the place never looked better.

Let's see...in the last RENT house I had...this is what I did AT MY OWN EXPENSE because I have standards about where and how I live:

1: French drains around the house. I got tired of the backyard flooding everytime it rained and flooding the back part of HIS house.

2: Painted the entire fucking house because I had to do wall repair because of the foundation issues.

3. Ripping out molded carpeting from the flooding because of the backyard and installing ceramic tile.

4. Used pavers in the courtyard to make a nice sitting and garden area.

I think you are broadbrushing a lot. Most of my friends that rent are just like me and leave the place better than they found it.

In fact, the house I had before this last house--I fixed up so nice (painted/restored original wooden floors/sanded, stained and restored and replaced all the hardware on the 1950's kitchen cabinets/replaced crappy plumbing/fixtures in the kitchen and bath with upgraded fixtures and did some pretty snazzy curb appeal--but was cheap) that the owner moved back into it after I had been there for 6 years--which really sucked.


I think that you are blaming the inactions of shitty landlords (and there are more of those than there are good ones)on the tenants. If you have a good owner and a good tenant--then the house will look like an "owned" home.

But...it is about personal responsibility. It is the responsibility of the OWNER to make sure that his house meets the neighborhood standards, regardless of who lives there--and to suggest otherwise is simply nothing but prejudice.

[a la izquierda]

42. my landlord is great, but...

we've also done a lot to improve this house. We put in a patio in the front, built a vegetable garden in the back, and keep the lawn nicely manicured. We call whenever there's a problem, so it doesn't become a major, expensive issue. We've lived here for two years, and my husband will stay another year while I move into an apartment (puke) to take a new job out of state.
My neighbors' house is the same, their landlord is good and their house is well-kept by both owner and tenant.

[ScreamingMeemie]

15. +1, says this real estate appraiser.

The more I read on this thread, from this OP, the more I see he does have a problem with renters...and it has not much to do with a shared driveway.

[MineralMan]

19. You're quite incorrect. It has everything to do with that

shared driveway.

[Gormy Cuss]

37. Owners who live next door can be just as problematic.

http://www.startribune.com/local/south/100000514.html

[MineralMan]

38. Yes, they can. The issue here is the shared cost and labor

of maintaining the shared driveway between the two houses. It's very difficult to negotiate with a landlord. Much easier to negotiate with an owner who lives in the house.

That's the only real issue here. That's why I'm hoping for an owner-occupant rather than a renter.

[Gormy Cuss]

41. But you're assuming that a resident owner will have the same view on sharing costs and labor.

What if the new owner thinks the driveway should be sealed at half the frequency that you think is necessary? What if the new owner doesn't want to pay for it unless an approved professional seals it?

The above are similar to situations that arise here regarding property line fences. When the fence needs to be repaired or replaced the convention locally is that each owner splits the cost and/or labor. My uphill neighbor disliked his other neighbor and refused to make even the small fixes, nor would he allow the neighbor to hire someone to do it. Since there were no code violations involved the feud continued until the uphill neighbor sold the house.

You've taken a lot of flak from people in this thread because of your comment about renters and frankly I understand where they're coming from. As renters on a block where nearly all of the houses are owner-occupied we learned very quickly that some neighbors just assumed that we would be more trouble than an owner. One neighbor wouldn't even acknowledge us when we pass him on the street. Funny thing is, he started smiling at us as soon as word got around that we had purchased the house.

[MineralMan]

43. Whatever the case, if I can talk to the owner in the driveway

on a regular basis, such things are more easily dealt with than with a landlord who isn't there.

As for the flack, I'm used to it. In retrospect, I should have used the term landlord rather than renter. That's my real concern, anyhow. If the owner lives in the house, there's a far better chance of dealing with such issues. Of course people have problems between two owners. I've certainly seen that. It hasn't been something I've experienced, but I understand it. All of my owner/neighbors have been reasonable people. Sometimes, the conversation goes on for a while, but we always managed to come to an agreement on such issues.

If the occupant isn't the owner, no such conversations take place. I've also dealt with landlords owning a property next to mine. Very difficult. The worst situation is when the home is owned by an estate that's in probate. It is absolutely impossible to get anything done until the probate is done. Uff da! I don't even like to think about the time I went through that. A tree fell in the neighbor's yard, blocking my driveway. I ended up having to do the job myself of clearing the driveway. I was much younger then, though, and owned a chainsaw. Lucky thing.

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. It is not so very hard to contact the homeowner for shared costs.

Sorry. Don't worry, should you ever sell, no one looking at houses is going to be able to tell whether the lower classes (i.e. "renters") live there or not.

[EFerrari]

7. As a a former renter who raised a family in one of those houses

I was never unstable or a bad neighbor or a drug dealer. We did, however, have a couple of idiot neighbors who tried to treat my children differently because we didn't own that house even though we contributed to the same tax pool that paved the street and paid the police department.

[xphile]

8. I do mean to make an issue of this. Renters are good neighbors too and it's

more than merely insensitive to imply otherwise.

[MineralMan]

12. Of course renters can be good neighbors.

In the case of this particular situation, though, we share a wide driveway that serves both houses. It requires regular maintenance. That's not inexpensive. It's easier to share those chores with a person living next door if they own the property. Snow removal is another issue. Few renters in my neighborhood own snowblowers. Most homeowners do. If you have a shared driveway that is 24' wide and 60' long, that's a big deal. I've been clearing the whole driveway for two years now. I'd like to stop doing the whole thing.


This is all just practical stuff that has to do with the fact that the two houses share a driveway. It has nothing to do with anything else.

[Catherine Vincent]

13. You own a house that shares a driverway with your next door nieghbor?

I've never heard of that.

[MineralMan]

18. It's common in my neighborhood, which was built up in

the 1950s. Most of the homes have wide driveways that serve two houses. Two single car garages at the back of the lot, served by one asphalt driveway, about 24' wide. Ours is 60' long, and it's brand new. The guy rehabbing the house and I split the cost of it, and it wasn't at all inexpensive. So, it's going to need sealing every year, and that's a big job for a couple of homeowners. Not expensive, but it takes cooperation and some manual labor.

It's just how they built the houses in this neighborhood in St. Paul. Sharing a driveway requires a lot of cooperation, in terms of parking and other things. It's just a heckuva lot easier to deal with if both houses are occupied by their owners. Both owners have an equal interest in maintaining that expensive driveway so it will last for many years. Snow removal is another issue, and Minnesota winters almost demand a snowblower for clearing a driveway that wide and long. I moved in here 6 years ago, and have cleared the entire driveway myself, since the previous owner didn't own a snowblower and the house has been empty for two years. If the new owner-occupant has a snowblower, the whole job will be a lot easier and less time-consuming. Renters rarely own one, and the job is too damned big for hand shoveling, especially in a heavy snowstorm. So, if it's a renter, I'll still be stuck doing the whole driveway again. I'm going to be 66 years old next month, and it's a lot of work. It would be nice to share the work.

As I said, this has nothing to do with personalities or whether the neighbors are nice people or any of that. It's a property-sharing issue. Landlords just aren't as interested in dealing with such things. Renters probably don't have the tools, and would have no interest in seal-coating a driveway, most likely. My preference is just based on practical matters, not social concerns.

There's a family of Somali immigrants living across the street from me. They're renters. Nice people. They have few resources. I clear their driveway for them, since they don't even own a decent snow shovel. It's a small driveway and short, so it only takes me about 15 minutes. Their next-door neighbor clears their sidewalk for them. We all look after one another in this neighborhood. It's just a property maintenance issue that concerns me with the owner of the house next door with the shared driveway.

Another thing we don't have in this neighborhood is backyard fences. It's one continuous lawn from one end of the block to another. It's all a playground for the children in the neighborhood. No fences between houses, either. More property maintenance stuff. It really helps to have the owner living in the next house. For instance, my neighbor on the other side of my house and I discussed lawnmowing. We tend to overlap the mowing between our houses and yards, so we talked about it and set our lawnmowers to the same height so the lawns would be even all the time, no matter who mowed when. We both mow once a week, so we have a nice back yard area, which is mostly used by the neighbor's kids. Actually, the whole neighborhoods' kids trek through all the backyards.

It reminds me of the 1950s neighborhood where I grew up. I like it very much.

[Sal Minella]

20. For ten years, I owned a house that shared a driveway with the

house next door, which was also owned by the people who lived in it.

The shared driveway was covered in an "easement" agreement in the deed, and it led to two garages on the rear of the properties. This was in the 'seventies, so it's nothing new.

[MineralMan]

24. Yeah. I think they're more common in urban neighbor hoods than

in the suburbs. It was a new thing to me when we bought this house. We saved some money on the house, because the existing driveway was badly deteriorated. I didn't realize that the owner of the house next door was in financial trouble, so it went unrepaired for four years. We finally replaced the driveway when the person who bought the foreclosed house to rehab it came over to discuss a driveway replacement. We couldn't really afford it, but it wasn't really optional to leave it any longer, so we bit the bullet. I'm absolutely determined to maintain this driveway to keep it in good condition as long as possible. I don't want to do that again.

It works out fine, as long as the neighbor is cooperative about sticking to his or her own half of the driveway and working with you when other issues arise. I have a boat, which lives in the garage, and backing it up the driveway is a tight fit. Sharing a driveway is interesting. Maintaining a shared driveway is easier when the neighbor has a good reason to keep it in good condition, too. Landlords often aren't as interested in driveway maintenance as owner-occupants. It's complex, but important.

[Pithlet]

23. I've seen it in rural areas where people have longer driveways.nt

[MineralMan]

25. Yeah, that too, but usually those driveways are single width, then split

near the garages. In these residential situations, they're double width, since people park on them, too. It's sort of a trip. Not a great deal when one half is taken up by a huge motorhome, though, like at one house on my block. Lots of problems between those two neighbors over the driveway.

On the other hand, you tend to get to know your neighbor, since there's no fence between you and you run into each other a lot on the driveway. My previous neighbor, who lost his house after losing his job, and I got along very well. We often stood on the driveway and chatted about the state of the world. It's not a bad thing, as long as both parties are respectful of each other. I can, however, be pretty ugly if there are issues. There's one house up the street from mine where one neighbor built a fence right up the middle of the shared driveway. Not a good situation between him and his neighbor, and damned narrow maneuvering space.

[Pithlet]

32. Oh, okay, I know what you're talking about.

I imagine there's potential for lots of drama.

[MineralMan]

35. There can be some drama, for sure.

You come out and someone's guest is parked on your side of the driveway. That sort of thing. It's not usually a problem, though, and most neighbors are reasonable about such things. It's important to establish a good relationship from the start. I find that being helpful when help is needed is often a good way to get that relationship off on the right foot.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. We have no snow, but a drive that is shared by 4 houses

Some are renters, some are owners. None of us 'do the work' the chores are as follows: deciding it needs done, calling someone to do it, writing the check to pay them. Complex, but we muddle through.

[MineralMan]

34. OK. I'm glad that works for you.

I do the work. I can, so I do. I don't pay people to do stuff I'm capable of doing.

I know the type of drive you're talking about. This is not like that. This is a wide driveway. People park on it on both sides for the full length, except for any vehicle that goes in the single-car garage. Most of the people I know can't fit a car in their garage. It's all full of junk. I keep mine open for one car in the winter. In the summer, my little boat goes in there on its trailer so it's ready to go when I am.

I probably should have said landlords, rather than renters. It's just that lots of things are easier in this situation if the owner lives next door, when it comes time to deal with shared stuff. Landlords often aren't interested in any needs that are going to cost anything. Renters, themselves are fine, but keeping an asphalt driveway maintained isn't really their responsibility.

[xphile]

44. It is the responsibility of the owner of the property to keep up with the maintenence.

If the owner fails to do so that is not a reflection on the renter. Your problem is your neighbor was a shitty landlord. It does not mean that renters are inferior neighbors. So your comment about the renters was not appreciated.

[snooper2]

14. You know what, rule of thumb says somebody buying the house is usually better

at taking care of the property than a renter...

It's based in factual evidence for decades. That idea didn't just pop out of nowhere so people can "look down on" renters.

Come to my street and we will take a walk. You can distinctly which homes are the rental properties. We are talking also where the rent runs from $1100-$1600

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Of course, the greater upkeep is the property owner's

responsibility. They can provide or insist on the use of a lawn service. But 'taking care of the property' is the owner's job. They are supposed to paint and maintain the property. A renter keeps up the tidy, but 'taking care of the property' is up to the owner. Run down houses are run down by the owner not doing upkeep. That shabby fence? That is on the owner.
Facts also indicate that people do not take care of properties they own and rent out as well as they should. In extremes, such people are known as 'slum lords'. Pretty well known stuff.

[MineralMan]

26. Very true. Landlords don't like spending money, as a rule.

That's another reason for my preference. Especially since an expensive driveway is part of the situation. To maintain an asphalt driveway for maximum lifespan takes some work and expense. I can hardly seal a crack just on my half of the driveway, but if the whole crack isn't sealed...

Lots easier when the owner lives in the neighboring house. We can stand there, look at it, discuss what needs to be done, and take care of the situation. We both understand the need for the maintenance. The landlord? Not so much, in many cases. It's hard to get a landlord to take care of things like that. It's not the renters who are the problem. It's the absent owner. That's where the problems arise when you have shared stuff between two homes.

[Pithlet]

29. Yep. There is a growing problem of absentee landlords

Fueled by this housing mess. My city in particular is not dealing with this problem very well. These investors snapping up houses on the cheap but doing little to nothing to keep them up. It's criminal. The blame on renters is certainly misplaced.

[locahungaria]

33. Factual evidence? Can you please provide some links? n/t

[Sal Minella]

40. Here's a "link" illustrating the dichotomy:

I have been a renter, and I have been a homeowner.

I took good care of the property as an owner, insofar as finances permitted.

When I rented, the landlord was a dour presence who knocked on the door once a month to collect the rent (in cash). If we tried to tell him about something that needed fixing, he'd say, "I'll check on that later" which he never did.

It's no mystery to me why people might prefer live-in owners to absentee-landlord owners.

[xphile]

46. Granted. But the problem is the LANDLORD. Not the renter.

To assume that the renter is the problem is my beef here. Renters don't really get much say in how the property is maintained when it comes to the major stuff.

[Sal Minella]

53. Nobody is assuming that the renter is the problem.

The upkeep of rentals is the problem, and renters unfortunately are present to suffer the opprobrium that should fall on (absent) bad landlords.

There's no use getting one's progressive credentials in a twist over an imagined slight.

[xphile]

45. Factual based on what? Renters who were the victims of shitty landlords?

It is the landlord who is responsible for the upkeep of the house. If someone buys a house and rents it out and then decides not to do the work that needs to be done that's not the renter being a bad neighbor. They are not required to, nor should they be expected to, put money into a property without compensation that they do not own. Your problem is a shitty landlord and it's not at all fair to say renters are bad neighbors when the fault lies with the landlord in the first place.

You give me a not so well maintained house and I'll show you a house with an owner who is a shitty landlord.

That said, you can make all the claims you wish but the fact that you look down your nose at renters is really quite obvious.

[MineralMan]

47. Whatever the reason for poor maintenance, I'd rather not

have a rental home next to mine. If it's the landlord's fault, and it almost always is, the problem is still the same. I share a driveway with this house, and it needs maintenance. That's my concern. In my original post I said I was glad it was not a RENTAL. I still am.

I have no problem with renters. I have a problem with poor maintenance of rental houses. It's not the resident, it's the owner. If the owner is also the resident, it's easy for me to discuss shared maintenance issues.

[xphile]

49. You have a problem with renters. That's why you were so quick to look down your nose at them.

You've already tipped your hand in the OP.

My issue with you is not your preference in neighbors but in your attitude toward renters. Renters need places to live too and they are good neighbors as well. Whatever issues you have with your driveway is with the landlord. It is and always has been the landlord you needed to deal with.

And the irony of people looking down their noses at renters yet would be the first ones to complain about somoene buying a house they can't afford is not lost on me either.

[MineralMan]

50. You know what? You're wrong.

That is all.

[xphile]

51. No I'm not.

Your attitude comes across loud and clear dear.

[DCKit]

9. Nah. Probably running a McDonalds, on the down-low. nt

[kestrel91316]

10. I'm a renter, and the house I lived in for 8 years was going to be my home for 20 years

if I had ANY say in the matter. And I was the ideal neighbor: quiet, into gardening/landscaping, responsible, no loud vehicles/parties/barking dogs, neighborly.

Unfortunately it got sold out from under me to a developer to tear down and build 2 Persian Palaces on.

The only good thing was, the SOB bought at the peak, and after he built, they sat empty for well over a year. Hope the whole sorry mess bankrupted him.

[Xithras]

36. I don't like rentals in my neighborhood, and it has nothing to do with renters. Landlords suck.

I've seen it over and over again. An owner-occupied home gets purchased by an investor. That investor turns around and rents it out. In order to keep his overhead low, he only does the minimum maintenance needed, so the condition of the property slides over the years.

That house can have the best renters on the planet living in it, and the quality of the house will still slide. Renters are rarely willing to invest their own money into a house, on top of paying rent, to improve it visually (and they SHOULDN'T; it's not their job to increase their landlords property values), and owners are rarely willing to spend more money on the houses than they absolutely must. Homeowners, on the other hand, tend to invest more money into their homes because they plan on staying in it longer and will have to deal with the results, AND because it offers them an actual payoff in property values when the house sells.

I have nothing against renters and have rented for more than half of my adult life. I've also owned a few rentals (yep, I was a landlord, and I was as guilty of this as any other landlord.) Still, I'd rather have an owner occupied property next door than a rental unit.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. Awful renters! Not like the lovely 'owners' who got forclosed on

and left the property in need of 'rehab' due to their dedication to the community and sterling work ethics so far beyond the standards of mere 'renters'. The nation is in the junk heap because of 'home owners' who fucked up entire cities and states with their high standards.

[Sal Minella]

22. *** sigh *** n/t

[galileoreloaded]

52. Home owners are the worst!

all they do is get mad at you that your bringing down their property values. Not neighborly at all!