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A look at how a "turnaround" team treats the teachers in the school they are "turning around."

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 01:58 PM
Original message
A look at how a "turnaround" team treats the teachers in the school they are "turning around."
In President Obama's Blueprint for Reform of public schools, there are four options for schools that don't pass the high-stakes tests. Here are the school turnaround options listed in that plan.

*Turnaround: The school’s principal and all of its teachers are fired. A new principal may rehire up to 50 percent of the former teachers and must then implement Department-outlined strategies to improve student academic and graduation rates.

*Restart: The district must either convert the school to a charter, or close it and reopen it under outside management--a charter operator, charter management organization or education management organization.

*School Closure: Schools may be closed, with students being transferred to “other, higher achieving schools.”

*Transformation: This model requires that the school principal be replaced (if s/he has been at the school longer than two years) and that schools must choose from an department-determined set of strategies. But under the SIG program, school districts with more than nine targeted schools can only use this model for no more than half.
Obama's school turnaround policy.


There seems to be a lot of thoughtlessness, even cruelty, involved in the process. This takeover by a turnaround team is one of the options of Race to the Top. Sometimes it is done whether the school chooses to or not. Fire the faculty, make them reapply, but do it in a way that tells them they are goners. These are not bad teachers, they are teachers in a school that is targeted for turnaround by the reformers.

Teachers who care are losing their careers unexpectedly and without due consideration because of Arne's education reform.

Two looks at the Marshall High "turnaround"

The first is from Ben Joravsky at the Reader:

It's curious, this double standard we have when it comes to cracking down on low-scoring schools. The man in charge of the system retires with, among other things, a well-paid, do-little position at one of the most prestigious universities in the world. Meanwhile, the teacher on the front line winds up on the dole...

The second is from Matt Farmer at Huffington:

Huberman gutted Marshall last year as part of another high-stakes CPS "turnaround." After firing the old guard, CPS officials hand-picked the school's new faculty to ensure that this "turnaround" will be more successful than Arne Duncan's "transformation" of Marshall back in 2007-08.


Looks like a 2nd turnaround is in sight.

Anthony Skokna.. "They just didn't know what else to do with me."


Picture courtesy of Chicago Reader. "Anthony Skokna: "They just didn't know what else to do with me."

In contrast, consider the case of Anthony Skokna, 56, who was unceremoniously dumped from his job as a history teacher at Marshall High School, just about two years shy of claiming any of his pension. He's been applying for jobs all over town, but no one will hire him, most likely because he's too old.

..."He said he had an inkling of the direction things were going when the turnaround team brought prospective teachers to his classroom to give them a tryout. "They'd come in and say, 'Could you leave so we can use your class?'" he recalls. "It was a little awkward."

So he'd go to the hallway or the library. A couple of times a member of the turnaround team asked him to come back to the classroom. "They'd say, 'Could you please help us settle your class?'—the kids were being a little disruptive for the tryout teacher," says Skokna.
"Think about it from the kids' perspective. Some of the kids told me, 'We don't have to listen to you—you're getting fired anyway.' And other kids would tell the turnaround people, 'Why are you bringing in this new teacher? Mr. Skokna is our teacher.'"

By the end of last school year, he hadn't received any word about whether he'd be brought back. So he called the central office. "I wound up talking to someone who says, 'Oh, you didn't get a call?' I said no. And they said, 'You should have. But you're not coming back.'" And that's how he learned that, after 18 years on the job, his days at Marshall were over.


They used his classroom to audition prospective new teachers. They did not even tell him he was fired. After 18 years.

That's cruel. It's heartless.

More from the Huffington Post:

Another Marshall Plan

I decided to get to the bottom of things by checking in with Shantrell Sutton, who is currently a senior at Marshall. Sutton is a member of the National Honor Society, and she's been accepted to DePaul University, the University of Illinois at Chicago, and several other colleges. She, too, had been one of Skokna's students.

Sutton told me she "felt horrible" when she heard Skokna was fired, explaining that "a lot of us kids trusted him." She said Skokna had "a special way of teaching" and "he loved us -- you can tell." Sutton hopes that Skokna will find a way to come to her graduation. "He was (at Marshall) a long time," she said. "He's family."

When I sat down with Skokna last week to talk with him over pizza about his former students and his years at Marshall, it didn't take me long to understand what Pondexter and Sutton saw in him. The man was passionate about his students. He misses them. He misses teaching.

Huberman gutted Marshall last year as part of another high-stakes CPS "turnaround." After firing the old guard, CPS officials hand-picked the school's new faculty to ensure that this "turnaround" will be more successful than Arne Duncan's "transformation" of Marshall back in 2007-08. And although this "turnaround" faculty has yet to complete its first year, it already appears there will be more blood-letting at the school in the days ahead.


Gary Rubenstein's TFA blog presents some statistics in real time about Marshall's principal and her old school.

A new miracle school in Chicago

Take the recent article about the turnaround school in Chicago called Marshall High School, recently reported about in The Chicago Tribune. We learn that the principal just finished her first year there after a successful four year turnaround of another Chicago High School, Harper High School. The article reports that the principal did have to get rid of 161 students as part of her way of accomplishing that turnaround.

But when I researched the school report cards from 2007 to 2010 for Harper High, I learned a few unusual things:

For one, the enrollment in that school went from 1301 in 2007 to only 771 in 2010. That’s a 40% attrition.

Then when I checked the test scores, I saw that they barely changed


Teachers are fearful, they are afraid of losing their jobs. Teachers who don't deserve to feel that way are still in the line of fire.

It may be called "reform", but it is really not that at all. It's the creeping culture of the corporate world moving in to make profit.



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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. In my district, the ones who were fired got 6 or 7 certified letters
Edited on Sun Jun-12-11 02:54 PM by proud2BlibKansan
Plus a letter handed them at school by their principal.

School districts clearly don't get this how to fire thing.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. That's true.
And there way too many people taking over education now that really know nothing about it at all. All they have to do is say "bad teachers", and everyone nods in agreement. Money talks.

I am going to check with some teachers in our area, as I am curious now.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. The college interns and student teachers I have had lately are interesting
They come in with an attitude that they have all the answers, they are the saviors our kids need, and all it takes is rigor and lots of data. Not a one has a background in child development. (When did they stop teaching that in university education programs?)

I ask them straight up what they know about Piaget and get a blank stare. :scared:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. I quit having interns the last few years. I called the professor for a talk.
She came to see me about the last one I had, and we had a talk about it in private. She agreed with me that there was a quality deficit in some cases. Three years before I had an excellent one who was a leader in many campus organizations. She was the best. But after that last one...no more.

I was seeing that attitude coming back then, like they knew better than I did how to teach the kids. I am all for sharing ideas, but I was responsible for the class. I had to hear the parents gripe about her inabilities. It just became not worth it.

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soleiri Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Some university programs are better than others
I'm finishing up on my MA in Special Education and I studied Piaget, Vygotsky, Paulo Freire and I keep up with current research.
Child development was a prerequisite to get into the credential program in the Cal State system.

That attitude that new teachers have that they are somehow better than a veteran teacher, makes us look bad,
and ungrateful to the veteran teachers who we should be learning from.
It is not only insulting, but downright stupid.
My plan was to learn as much as I can from the veteran teachers at my school,
but now that education is a competition, who's going to want to help?

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #18
55. I think the ideas of the "reformers" are creeping into colleges quickly.
I believe that's why the interns often have a feeling of superiority over the teachers who accept them as interns. I believe many universities are teaching that attitude now.

Here is an interview from some USF interns..what one of them says is just shocking.

""I like getting rid of bad teachers, teachers protected by the unions because we can't fire them. That's crap. If they're not doing the job, they don't get paid. It's that simple," says Lindsay.

"I have seen teachers don't teach, because they have tenure. They sit in the classroom, read the newspaper give worksheets," explains Megan."

I think the video is still there.
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icarusxat Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. poor teacher means underpaid not bad at being a teacher
it is on beyond time to reexamine what works in the top performing countries...Finland and Korea treat the teaching profession with respect
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. I wonder how much of the "Failing" is home environment
if the parents don't value education neither do the children
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I've never let that stop me.
I've taught kids whose families think nothing of taking them out of school for weeks at a time. But that just makes the time they ARE in school even more important.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. You can lead a horse to water - can you make them drink
Edited on Sun Jun-12-11 03:16 PM by FreakinDJ
I'm not doubting your skills nor those of your fellow teachers. I'm just thinking out loud wondering how much of an impact does the parents education level, and participation play in the over all picture.

My wife has her masters and she pushes the kids pretty well. I have several associates and lead by example in regards to study
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I have no control over parents
Sure they play a huge roll but I have to do what I am paid to do without blaming them for my failures. Leading by example is a good strategy.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Agreed - but if your district has an over all Low Education level
then that should be weighted heavily in the schools over all performance
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. The complete destruction of public education is one of the best indicators
of what the top 1% have in mind. An un-educated populace is an easily controlled populace. Creating an atmosphere where only the wealthy can get a real education solidifies the barrier between the haves and have-nots.
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theaocp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. That's it. Nothing else to add. n/t
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Except to look at whose doing the work for the 1%.
Did we ever thing a Democrat would do this?
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Sportsguy Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. Sadly, I Feel The Same (nt)
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Scroll
down to the toons for June 10th.

http://www.jsmineset.com/

I read recently that Student Loans have surpassed Credit Card Debt in this country. These kids are so indebted...what a horrible way to start adulthood.

I agree with you...uneducated are cannon fodder. And another reason not to federally fund abortions for poor women....need cannon fodder or future ex-cons for the PRIVATE PRISONS.
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
47. the next big bust
I've heard and read (need to find the sources) that the student loan business may be the next big bust in our economy. These kids just want to get going in life as an adult and now they are straddled with tens of thousands or more in debt. Wtf?! How can they pay it back if they can't find a decent paying job or don't have family who are willing to help out? Scary stuff.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. And with the Bankruptcy Law
of 2005 (thank you, Biden), one can NEVER get rid of Student Loans.

Private colleges have really loaded the debt onto the kids...sickening.
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
36. Greenbacks are the primary motivators here.
The chance to transform the legions into slavish automatons is secondary, imo.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Slavish automatons are better at producing those greenbacks.
Better educated people may produce more greenbacks, but they have an unfortunate habit of demanding they KEEP more of those greenbacks they produce.

Greenbacks are the goal - slavish automatons are the means.
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Chemisse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. I left a school last year which was undergoing a 'transformation'.
They hired a new principal (which they needed to do anyway, since an interim had been there for two years and was anxious to retire). The man they hired had been fired from another school in the state, because THAT school was also doing a transformation which required firing their principal!

Word has it, this last year was sheer hell for the teachers, and my former students were loudly complaining as well. I've not asked for details.

I am very thankful I am at a new job now where the teachers are pretty well respected (dare I say appreciated?) by the administration.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Some very good principals have been fired just to get Arne's RTTT money.
It is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen in my lifetime.

It is just plain stupid. There is not a bit of common sense about it.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. It has NOTHING To do with reform; you are correct
and everything to do with the corportization of the world. Education, wars, healthcare.
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QED Donating Member (253 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
34. and prisons.
Rachel Maddow had something on a while back about the Corrections Corp. of America (CCA) (and maybe ALEC?) and its role in helping write Arizona's SB1070 law. One of Brewer's advisors is/was involved in CCA as a lobbyist.

It's all about the money.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
50. Prisons, schools
this all took about 30 years to bring to fruition, and I don't see it stopping anytime soon. :(
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. So most univerisities
can eliminate Education as a major, right? At least in FL, OH, WI, etc.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Yep, groups like TFA will do the training.
Really, all 5 weeks of it.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. recommend.
Totally infuriating.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. It really is. Teachers are losing careers. There is no party speaking for them.
I can't not believe this is happening.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
21. '2 years shy of claiming his pension". I hope they meant his full pension. that after 18 years
he's getting something!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. In our district you get nothing until you get your years in.
I don't know about others. There were a couple of options, but they had a designated number of years.
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craigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
22. All this turn a round nonsense isn't about improving education it's about breaking unions.
First they set these unfair and impossible to reach goals then they use them to go after teachers who may not have particularly smart classes over a few years. It doesn't neccessarily mean they're bad teachers it just means the grading tool isn't working.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
39. Arne has had confrontations with teachers' unions...said they would "water down standards."
That was such an insulting thing to say.

Arne warns states not to "water down" education plans to please unions.

Mr. Duncan said in an interview that he welcomed the friction between union and state officials but warned against states weakening their overhaul plans simply to win buy-ins from unions. "Watered-down proposals with lots of consensus won't win," he said. "And proposals that drive real reform will win."
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craigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Exactly especially when these standards are just arbitrary and there's no one standard for the whole
country. They've taken the joy out of school with this testing. Instead of students learning the subjects and gaining a deep knowledge of history and other subjects they've widened the curriculum and really geared the classes towards taking the tests.
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Brigid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
26. I have no words.
Edited on Mon Jun-13-11 12:24 AM by Brigid
How on God's green earth can any civilized country treat its teachers like this and expect to compete globally against countries where education is emphasized and teachers respected and properly trained? Pretty soon the only ones left in this country with any academic skills will be us oldsters who managed to get an education before the schools got turned into political footballs. What happens when we're gone? Other countries take pride in having excellent public school systems. What is wrong with us? :banghead:
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. The US is no longer a civilized country
WE don't value education or intellectual ability. We are the only major industrialized country without a national health care system. We no longer protect human rights. We don't have a mass media that informs the population. We elect people who do not work for us - they work for the corporations.

Some days I despair for the future.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Sadly, amen to all you said.
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Reader Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. And we haven't been civilized for a while.
People don't want to pay any taxes, even though taxes are what we pay for civilization. Americans don't *want* to be civilized. We just want *our* money and *our* stuff.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Reader Rabbit, I agree that we have not been civilized for a while. I consider paying my
taxes my civic duty, but I must say that nowadays when I see how my tax dollars are being used to fund wars and to privatize everything in this nation, I too would prefer to keep the taxes I pay to a minimum.

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locahungaria Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
31. Race to the Top???
Sounds more like a quick spiral to the bottom. A set up designed for failure at best.

Truly disgusting.

Recommended, and thanks for posting this, madfloridian.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Yes, it is a set up designed for failure.
NCLB means in Arne's words that 82% of all schools are failing. Now the admin is sort of panicky, worried how that will look to have all schools failing with Dems in charge. So they are trying to change NCLB, and the GOP won't hear of it. And RTTT has done it's job...the charters are licking their chops waiting to take over the failing schools.

It's all a sad tale of what happens when bipartisanship rules.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
35. Its nauseating to think this comes from the most intelligent president
that we've had in my lifetime.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
37. a turnaround must be tried first. no other interventions
happen until that runs it's course.
funny that there is nothing said here about what marshall was like. it was the sort of school you saw in 'blackboard jungle'. it was a complete failure by any measure. it is especially sad as it had a long history as an amazing school. many, many other solutions were tried before it got to turnaround. and btw, the managers they send in there are not some con man losers. they come from the best universities in chicago. (which has a huge supply of those.)

to present these processes as horrifying without any information whatsoever about what led to these processes does not really give a complete picture. it is pretty unfair to people trying hard to solve very, very, very difficult problems that, in the end, affect the whole city.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. I notice you did not even mention teachers. And that's a shame.
I am not going to argue with moderators. There were 3 on my last post vigorously disagreeing, and I had to back off though I was right.

Public education is being destroyed, and it is more important to some to prevent criticism of the policy and the president.

That saddens me so very much.

But I do want to be clear that I do not appreciate your words:

"to present these processes as horrifying without any information whatsoever about what led to these processes does not really give a complete picture. it is pretty unfair to people trying hard to solve very, very, very difficult problems that, in the end, affect the whole city."

It is a very difficult problem that is being blamed solely on the teachers, and they are paying a dear price for it with their careers.

I present facts, sources, when I post. I don't like being told I don't post fairly.


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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. i never have and never will remove a
post that is a reply to me. i wouldn't even alert. none of the other mods would do that either. even so, the moderators only act by consensus. no one moderator ever does anything. but really, we are not that petty.

i didn't say you were being unfair. i just pointed out that there was more to the story. there is a lot more to the story, including a many, many year battle to improve schools that was frozen into inaction by many interests. what is happening in the system now is a vast improvement over the decades of inaction.

not all teachers here are to blame. but the level of incompetence that filters down to schools like marshall are plain stunning. most are the bottom of the barrel because no good teacher wants to work there. there are a few deeply dedicated teachers at those schools, but i bet if you talked to them they would tell you that they battle against a lot more than their student's learning.
it is a complicated situation here. i appreciate that you stand up for teachers. but as a parent, i stand up for students. and fwiw, a lot of these teachers end up elsewhere. the system has a huge need for teachers.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Teachers are not new to standing up for students...
...as well. I do agree with you that the story of our public schools has many aspects...and that not all aspects get the same coverage. But, as a teacher who stood up for students for 24 years, I clearly see that I and many teacher colleagues are unfairly being targetted by some education reformers. Many of us have paid with our jobs, pensions and our health. I just would like THAT part of the story to get equal coverage.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. As a teacher I ALSO cared deeply about students. Very deeply. So do most teachers.
Perhaps you need to reread that the subject of the OP did not get his pension, he was 2 years short. He was not at all a "bad teacher". In fact I quoted students who really loved him.

The bottom line of the story is that the propaganda about "bad teachers" has nearly destroyed public education.

Teachers are in fact very seldom the cause of failing schools. Facts prove that it is the poverty level. And all the closing of schools and reopenings as charters which can get rid of students who don't produce is not going to do a thing except hurt career teachers who care.

Did you read that the principal of Marshall at her previous school got rid of 161 students to make a "good" school. Public schools can not do that.

I don't believe you or others would "remove" my posts. I feel it goes more to a discrediting of what I write. And that worries me a lot.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. all teachers have students that love them. that doesn't
make them good teachers. if he is a good teacher, he will get picked up elsewhere. the system as a huge shortfall of teachers.
but if we are not lifting up the poor kids, then what the heck is public education for?

and i am not trying to discredit what you write. i am just trying to present facts not in evidence in your post. and i never really reply to your posts unless it is about the system here in chicago. i have first hand experience in the system, which is the kind of thing i love about du.

(and btw, ben joravsky is a curmudgeon who beats whatever drum he can find in any given week. he is a good reporter, but he only ever covers the problem, never the causes, never the history, never the solutions.)

peace out mad. you provide a valuable viewpoint here.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. If you read more of my posts....it is the "experienced" teachers...
who are not being hired back. It's a way of deprofessionalizing the teaching profession.

What is happening in Chicago is happening all over the country. It is the New Normal.

Nothing I say will stop the privatization of public education, but I will have tried.

I DO cover the root sources of education. I used varied resources. I have even used Arne's own words, and even that did not matter.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. you know
i just don't think that experienced=good teacher. many are, many aren't. many young, energetic teachers are a treasure, also. layoffs and firings should be done with a plan to assess teachers by many measures and to get rid of teachers who are not competent, or who have emotional difficulties, who have excessive absences, or a lot of other reasons. i think that is sometimes called merit.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Hell, let's just fire them all! Remember the famous words of Bill Gates....
who is now apparently running the education in this country.

Remember these words?

Teachers do not improve after three years.

Garrulous Mr. Gates

Teachers have intrinsic motivation Gates can neither measure nor (apparently) conceive of. I appreciate money, and I’ll say thanks to praise from almost anyone. But I especially treasure it from kids. Last month I told my class I’d miss them. They shouted, “We’ll miss you too!” They asked me if I’d teach them next year. I was honored, far more than by anything Gates could do or say.

But Gates proves things with charts, one of which says:

"Once somebody has taught for three years, their teaching quality does not improve thereafter."


Here's the video...12 minutes in.

http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates_unplugged.html

Never never never never have I said that all experienced teachers were good...NEVER.

I never never never said all teachers were good.

I said very few teachers were bad, and that they are not to blame for bad schools. And true merit is not found on a multiple choice test which kids take no matter their inherent capability, their family background, their disabilities or whatever. You do not judge a teacher that way, you just do not.

Teachers are always judged by many people in many ways. It's always been that way. This is not a Race to the Top to see who has good teachers....this is let's play the gotcha game with those tests.

I am getting very uncomfortable posting here anymore. I really am. If you guys know something I don't know, let me know now.

I follow the rules, I don't post much criticism of Obama personally, just his education policy.

Life is too short to be on guard like this.

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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. i didn't really say that
"plan to assess teachers by many measures" is what i did say, and what i meant. bubble tests, as arne duncan so dismissively calls them, tell you very little about very little. about kids, about schools- charter and otherwise, about teachers.never advocated any such thing myself.
but there are lots of teachers dumped in dumping ground schools rather than firing them, as they ought to be. so, turnaround plans should be expected to run into a lot of them. about half of the teachers there get retained, tho. it is incorrect to say that all are fired. many are rehired.

as far as your last couple lines there, i don't know anything except that you have no reason to be uncomfortable talking with me. i am not going to lose the respect i have here by pursuing a personal agenda. if i had one. which i don't.
like i said, peace out.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. Please clarify what you mean by...
..."dumping ground school." ???
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. usually it means,
pardon me for being blunt, but it mostly means black schools. that is the reality of a city that, while it has many integrated neighborhoods, is still one of the most segregated cities in the world. poor schools sort of covers it, but it is something more than that.
any teacher who has a few strikes against them, whatever they may be, is a lot more likely to get a job in a crappy school. there are some folks for whom it is a calling. there are some that are there because it is their hood. but mostly it is teachers who really, really need a job.

and down thread the comment about young and energetic, the other thing that they bring is a knowledge base that is something more than teachers colleges give you. science and math teachers are like hen's teeth here. you want to see a bullet proof teacher, it's a math teacher whose kids pass the test.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Nor does 'young, energetic"...
...equal great, or even good, teacher. It is a money-saving myth.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. Amen to that.
:hi:
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
59. Deprofessionalizing the teaching profession while simultaneously
doing some not-so-covert union busting: twin goals of the ruling elite.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. hmm...
I am deeply offended by your not-so-subtle intimation that teachers do not stand up for students. Furthermore, I find your assertion that 'no good teacher wants to work' in 'schools like Marshall' both misinformed and disingenuous.

Teachers run the gamut from very, very bad to very, very good--just as do members of any other profession. The vast majority of teachers--again, like any other professionals (please review the Central Limit Theorem)--cluster around the mean, which is why bell curves are so familiar in the social sciences. The vast majority of teachers are hard working, dedicated, erudite individuals whose hearts are completely devoted to their students.

As importantly, playing the 'blame and shame' game is both stultifying, and a waste of time and energy. "Not all teachers are to blame"?!?! You completely miss the point. The corporatists who are driving the education reform du jour ARE promoting the meme that 'bad teachers' and 'vile unions' are TO BLAME for our failing system of public education! And, THIS is a primary focus in madfloridian's considerable--AND admirable--efforts to docmument this egregious assault on teachers and unions--during the administration of a Democratic President!

Obama's appointment of Arne Duncan as SecEd, ALONE, put a huge question mark in my mind about his integrity. Then, his casual dismissal of teachers as 'resistant to change' provided an accurate, if disheartening, picture of his attitude towards a profession that is VENERATED in nations that enjoy successful systems of public education.

One final note: I am among thousands of unemployed teachers in this nation. I have been un- or under-employed for the past three years. Despite the fact that I teach MATH, I cannot get a teaching contract in a public school. I am exploring unorthodox ways to remain a teacher, since--despite your claim otherwise--I am deeply concerned about the future of our children.

(BTW, bad grammar undermines your entire argument...)

(PS, I'm taking a screen print of this comment...)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
49. Excellent diary at DKos about this very kind of situation for all public workers.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/06/11/984303/-Public-employees-have-become-targets-of-anger-and-criticism

"John Yang reported from New Jersey where public worker retirement jumped 60% and nearly doubled for teachers in 2010. But it is not just Governor Chris Christie "mocking teacher benefits" who deserves all the credit. The report shows many states where politicians downgrading the value of public workers has become too much for the good government workers to continue. In 2010 California and Colorado each reported a 20% rise in retirees from the public sector. This year Ohio has reported a 34% increase and after the assault from Scott Walker public worker retirement in Wisconsin is up 96%.

One New Jersey teacher was the focus of the segment. Judy Cinnamond who has decided to give up teaching. This highly respected educator sums up the situation with "All of the sudden the teachers are the enemy and I don't want to feel that way. Having dedicated my life to this job, I just don't want to feel that way."


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
53. The impetus behind school reform...Bill Clinton gets award from Charter Asso.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/president-bill-clinton-honored-with-lifetime-achievement-award-at-national-charter-schools-conference-123773749.html

"The award recognizes President Clinton's ongoing support of public charter schools spanning more than twenty years. President Clinton established the federal government's interest in supporting the development of the charter school movement in 1993, when he proposed the Charter Schools Program (CSP). This program was enacted through the reauthorization of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) in 1994. The CSP is a discretionary grant program, administered by the U.S. Department of Education. It supports the planning, development and start-up process for new charter schools.

When President Clinton was elected in 1992 there was only one charter school open. By the time his administration left office, there were over 2,000 charter schools across the nation. Today more than 5,000 charter schools serve more than 1.8 million students across America. "

.."President Clinton will be joined by an impressive line-up of keynote speakers, including the Honorable Mayor Cory A. Booker, Newark, New Jersey; Success Charter Network Founder and CEO Eva Moskowitz; U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan; and Children Defense Fund (CDF) Founder and President Marion Edelman."

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Snoutport Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
61. Very Distrubing, to say the least
I fear that will be what happens to me at the end of my teaching career. Tossed away like garbage.
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