Arrest of former IMF boss baffling to French

[Prometheus Bound]

Arrest of former IMF boss baffling to French

In France, woman would have been advised to drop matter, expert says

By Peter O'Neil, Postmedia News May 21, 2011

It would be "unthinkable" in France that a low-wage migrant African worker could bring down one of the most powerful men in the world, says an expert on sexual-harassment laws in the United States and France.

If the incident last weekend involving Dominique Strauss-Kahn had taken place in Paris rather than New York, the complainant would have likely been talked out of pressing charges, said Abigail Saguy, a sociologist at the University of California in Los Angeles.

"I think it is definitely unthinkable, and this is the reason why people in France are so stunned that this has happened," said Saguy, author of the 2003 book What is Sexual Harassment? From Capitol Hill to the Sorbonne.

....."I think she would have been strongly encouraged not to come forward with it, and if she were to come forward with it I think she would have been met with negativity and she wouldn't have been taken seriously."

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Arrest+former+boss+baffling+French/4821808/story.html#ixzz1N1e17AZR

If this is true, I have lost a lot of respect for France. I guess the French Revolution did not go far enough.

[Enrique]

1. sez one person I never heard of

:shrug:

[Prometheus Bound]

4. Is she wrong then?

[Obamanaut]

49. Here's some info

Ph. D., Princeton University AND L'Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris

http://www.soc.ucla.edu/people/faculty?lid=1315

Along with several books/articles published - more info at link

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. the french are more racist/elitist/sexist than us? go us!

i am proud that we handled this the way we did

[Exilednight]

77. Only because it happened to a French citizen on US soil. If this were a US citizen on French

soil, you can be that there be holy hell raised here in America.

[Kokonoe]

3. I always thought 'expert says' gets paid for knowing more than me.

But I only want experts for fixing stuff I can't fix.

[malaise]

5. The truth is that the arrest of a rich white man

as a result of an alleged rape of an African hotel worker is a most unusual event anywhere in the world.

[leftstreet]

6. +1

This is a class issue

[seabeyond]

8. then why are americans not "stunned". i would say, or fabricating excuses for him, but then

we have seen plenty of that on du

[malaise]

17. M$M are clearly stunned or it would not be such a major news event

but most Americans don't have a clue about the IMF, let alone its boss

[seabeyond]

18. right. a couple people talked about rapture and look what happened this weekend

but that was real smooth sliding past the point

[seabeyond]

7. kinda like outing her name and her picture implying she is staying in an AIDS apt and

it is a set up and really... she wasnt raped.

i read an excellent article in times. the women in france are now talking about actually addressing the sexual harassment they are expected to take it and rape that they are expected to endure because it is a mans world.... dontcha women know

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. Absolute bullshit...Many French people are outraged now that DSK's shenanigans have been exposed

This is just pure anti-French nonsense. Why not pick the other characteristics of DSK to pick on, like that he's white haired, or that he's Jewish? Why would those points be any less obnoxious than this French bashing. It's nonsense, and beneath the members of this board.

[seabeyond]

10. i listened to a french journalist yesterday on npr and she mentioned not an iota of "outrage"

yet she did discuss this phenomenon reinforcing what this woman is saying. i have yet to see any outrage. i read a huge article in times and the women org in france sees it as an opportunity to address the sexual harassment at work and rape being hushed by the elite males.

[Prometheus Bound]

11. Looking at her background, she does appear to be qualified to speak on the issue.

http://www.soc.ucla.edu/people/faculty?lid=1315

[krabigirl]

13. Bbut, it's so much easier to make blanket generalizations!

[leftstreet]

16. The article's not about 'outrage,' it's about shock

:shrug:

[roguevalley]

50. apparently if you have enough money and power you don't get

your ass bit in France. Sounds familiar. But for the non-mainstream media, it would happen more here too. But we can't pass up a good trial.

If France has a problem with this, they need to fix it and rethink their behavior. Pointing out what is happening and is reported all over the world about this sort of thing isn't bashing. I love France but clearly they have a problem. FIX IT!

[KittyWampus]

54. This is about societal norms and it's hilarious that some DU'ers can't wrap their heads around the

idea that European countries aren't entirely paragons of societal virtue.

[seabeyond]

56. European countries aren't entirely paragons of societal virtue.

isnt that the truth. shell shocked they are....

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. Oh stop it

I'm perfectly aware that European countries have deep social problems, as do all countries. The nonsense here is in assigning some universal response to "the French." Some DUers are also childish France bashers of the first order, and this appears to be nothing more than an excuse for them to roll out their usual stupidities. As I said, the other characteristics of DSK (white-haired, Jewish) would be equally fucking dumb to harp on, but the moronic French hatred that circulates as some kind of worldly knowledge prevents people from seeing it.

[krabigirl]

12. Yah, I think assaulting women is a crime in france, but hey, I guess some people don't think so.

Doesn't mean that it isn't.

[seabeyond]

14. the pressure to keep mouth shut seems to be wide spread and openingly discussed

these are women, taking sexual abuse from men.

i would think we would all be rooting for them to address this issue.

[joshcryer]

28. Look at post #22, it's appalling!

[seabeyond]

33. it is inspiring, it is awesome, it is hopeful. it is something good coming out of this tragedy.

and eye opener. and it feels good.

i read an excellent article in times magazine. towards the end, it said, pruitanical needs to be put to rest, and maybe prudence ought to take its place.

it was discussing ths very issue about france inherit sexism and misogynist society and what u.s. had accomplished with the arrest.

[jwirr]

15. Or they need another revolution. Didn't they have a rallying cry about

equality or something in that revolution? Apparently it did not include low payed women.

[Prometheus Bound]

19. French feminists outraged by Strauss-Khan affair plan rally

French feminists outraged by Strauss-Khan affair plan rally
DATE: 2011-05-22

PARIS, May 22, 2011 (AFP) - French women's groups outraged by the political and media reaction to the sexual assault allegations against Dominique Strauss-Kahn have announced a protest rally in central Paris for Sunday.

A week after New York police arrested the French political heavyweight, feminist groups are circulating a petition against the impunity which they say sexism enjoys in France.

And their campaign has already won the support of several high-profile female politicians and journalists.

...."For a week, we have been stunned by the daily surge of misogynistic remarks by public figures, widely broadcast on our televisions, radios, in the workplace and on social networks..." it (the petition) says.

"We are angry, disgusted and outraged," it adds.
http://www.haveeru.com.mv/english/details/36477

[joshcryer]

20. Good for them.

I don't expect the WSWS to support their cause.

[Cali_Democrat]

21. What do you mean?

[leftstreet]

23. Why are you bringing up WSWS?

Are you on the wrong thread?

Don't see an article here from them

[joshcryer]

24. Well, they've been quite defensive of the IMF and its former boss lately.

If you hadn't noticed.

[leftstreet]

25. So? What's that got to do with the article in the OP?

:shrug:

[joshcryer]

27. I was responding to a feminist rally against DSK.

It's relevant to me in the scope of greater social freedom.

[seabeyond]

36. i dont get

where you are coming form. but then, i am off to bed. do tired. did i miss something?

[joshcryer]

39. Personal thing.

I see certain sites bandied about here defending DSK and I felt like making a quip about said site.

[seabeyond]

41. ah.... thanks

nite

[seabeyond]

29. bOOyAH my SISTAHs... kick some ass. be " angry, disgusted and outraged,"

cause that is what i am. i say YEAH, it is about damn time. thank you, and good luck to you all.

thanks Prometheus Bound

and this is what i have been saying, since this began and people continually told me how simply sexual the french were....stunned by the daily surge of misogynistic remarks

[Prometheus Bound]

32. I didn't believe any of it at first, but then you reminded me of Roman Polanski.

So I started looking into it and found out I was wrong. They do have a problem.

[seabeyond]

34. thank you for being open minded enough to look into it further. and thank you for sharing this

info here. i haev read 4, 5 really good articles on the issue myself. i have learned a lot in the last couple days.

[Cali_Democrat]

48. You were right Seabeyond

This is indefensible. There appears to be a misogynistic culture in France.

[seabeyond]

51. it has been a learning event, for sure. nt

[QC]

72. Obviously, they just hate French people. n/t

[Prometheus Bound]

22. How Dominique Strauss-Kahn's arrest awoke a dormant anger in the heart of France's women

How Dominique Strauss-Kahn's arrest awoke a dormant anger in the heart of France's women

When the former head of the IMF was taken into custody, many in the French elite saw him as a victim – until an outraged feminist movement began to speak out against what it saw as years of pernicious and ingrained sexism in French life

......After several days of this, Osez le Féminisme decided enough was enough. In a powerful statement, it declared that the way in which the chambermaid's account had been dismissed showed how difficult it was for victims of sexual assault to come forward. The levity with which her allegations were treated by some, it added, showed "to what extent violence against women is still underestimated". Of the estimated 75,000 women who are raped in France each year, it is said only 10% file an official complaint with the police.

....."It feels like France is just beginning to wake up to the concept of sexual harassment," wrote the France-based British author Lucy Wadham on her blog last week, referring to the debate over the difference between seduction and the kind of "very heavy, very persistent" onslaught that Filipetti attributes to Strauss-Kahn. Criticising the rush to treat DSK as a victim, Wadham added: "Wilfully unreconstructed, France is a society in which women collude in a continued phallocracy."

Simon Jackson, an English historian at Sciences Po, the elite political studies institute in Paris, shares the view that, in France, male attitudes to sex lag behind Britain in terms of equality. "I think that's in large part the product of serious and continuing deficits in the opportunities women enjoy professionally, educationally and socially in France, which is one of the least gender-equal countries in the EU." Figures for 2011 lay bare those deficits: women make up 18.5% of MPs and 85% of casual workers. In the gender pay gap survey released at Davos, France came 46th. Britain was 15th.

.....Stepping into the fray came the formidable Gisèle Halimi, a women's rights activist and lawyer, who, at the age of 84, declared in an interview she was "convinced" that "if this business had occurred in France, we would have known nothing about it". The US legal system, she said, reaffirms women's dignity and the protection of the weakest. "It has to be said, it's a victory for American feminists who, for years, have worked to show that sexual harassment and rape were serious crimes."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/22/dominique-strauss-kahn-arrest-dormant-anger-france-women

[joshcryer]

26. Wow, those numbers are appalling, granted, it's 60% not reported here...

...but 90% in France? Holy shit.

[seabeyond]

31. "pernicious and ingrained sexism".... yes! only 10% file an official complaint

male attitudes to sex lag behind Britain in terms of equality.....least gender-equal countries in the EU

The US legal system, she said, reaffirms women's dignity and the protection of the weakest.

it's a victory for American feminists

VINDICATION.....

we have been right... I have been right, all along. happy dance.

kick some ass.

[inna]

43. "The US reaffirms the protection of the weakest" - only for those who are completely delusional.

[joshcryer]

45. A Black African Muslim got the head of one of the most powerful orgs indicted.

Yeah, uh, in this case you can at the bare minimum say that "the New York Special Victims Unit and Prosecutor reaffirms the protection of the weakest."

[inna]

47. yup, and we're in Libya to protect the civilians.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inna]

66. ridiculous personal attack not even worthy of responding to. Bye.

[seabeyond]

52. mmmm, this maid wont agree with you. nt

[Odin2005]

35. That proves it, the French are a bunch of Misogynist PIGS.

:puke:

[joshcryer]

37. Sarcasm? It does indicate a sexual divide and an issue in their culture.

I don't know if the characterization you make is proven though.

[seabeyond]

40. nah. he has claimed there is an issue in france from the start. he is

one of the greatest supporters of anti rape on the board, even more so than all the women, lol

he was serious

[joshcryer]

42. Gotcha, saw his second post about it. 'nite btw.

His second post made me realize he wasn't being sarcastic, but he'll be bashed for saying that in the future I expect. It's a good article in any event.

[joshcryer]

46. I found the report, PDF (US ranks 19, 31 in 2007):

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2010.pdf

Closed the gap by ten points, either that or the entire world just got suckier...

[Nye Bevan]

30. In the US justice system the lowliest chambermaid is as important as a rich prominent bankster.

This completely blindsided DSK as the incident would very likely have been hushed up in Paris or Rome.

I know that the US justice system is not perfect but this incident gives us one reason to be proud of it.

[Odin2005]

38. The French have no right to mock our "puritan sexual mores" anymore. Misogynistic creeps!

[joshcryer]

44. Re: gender gap in France:

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2011/03/28/2003499289">French women and the gender code trap
...

Elsa Dorlin, associate professor at the Sorbonne, currently a visiting professor in California, dispatches the first quantity pretty swiftly.

“French feminism is a kind of American construction,” she said. “Figures like Helene Cixous are not really recognized in France. In civil society, there is a hugely anti-feminist mentality.”

The standard structural markers of inequality are all in place: The figure proffered for a pay gap is a modest 12 percent, but this is what is known as “pure discrimination,” the difference in wages between a man and a woman in exactly the same job, with the same qualifications. When the Global Pay Gap survey came out at Davos, France came a shocking 46th, way behind comparable economies (Britain is 15th, Germany 13th) and behind less comparable ones (Kazakhstan scored higher).

This is really eye opening to me.

[seabeyond]

53. " not wearing enough clothing, you’re a prostitute.....wearing too much, you’re a Muslim. "

interesting article.

i like the part of no males running, a lack of male heirs....

hm. seems all the things i have continually been hit with on this board about france has been utter bullshit. thanks

[athena]

63. Indeed.

I was in Paris when this happened and was able to watch the media reaction, which portrayed DSK as the victim. It was shocking, to say the least. For days afterwards, the media continued to root for DSK and to express outrage about the perp walk, while openly stating the alleged victim's name. An early editorial suggested that the incident would never have been publicized if it had happened in France -- later, several of my French acquaintances agreed that the maid would have been either hushed up, or laughed at if she tried to speak out. It does seem like France is at least 30 years behind the U.S. on taking rape seriously. I am glad that people inside and outside France are finally recognizing what this incident, and the French media's reaction to it, say about French attitudes towards women.

[Prometheus Bound]

64. Eye-opener is right.

Hong Kong, where I live, is a half century ahead of them in terms of gender equality. I certainly wouldn't have guessed that before this week.

[joshcryer]

68. Not sure if you noticed, but I posted the Gender Gap report in #46. Ironically France is 46th...

[treestar]

58. "talked out of" pressing charges?

I suppose attempt at that could have been made in any country.

[joshcryer]

59. It likely would have had not the NY SVU* been so quick to respond.

DSK sending one of his goons to "talk to her" while they figure out how to shut her up, etc. But the NY SVU was there within the hour and the victim was persuaded to tell what happened (she was reported to have been rather reluctant to actually tell what happened). That's amazing work if you ask me. Incredible. I'm glad some places treat sexual assault very seriously here.

*I don't think they're called the "Special Victims Unit" but they deal with these kinds of crimes exclusively, so it's similar. Sorry for forgetting what they are called.

[treestar]

60. Just like on Law and Order!

Good work!

[athena]

62. They are called the Special Victims Squad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/nyregion/strauss-kahn-case-puts-focus-on-real-special-victims-squad.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=special victims&st=cse">Here is a good article about them:

[joshcryer]

65. That's the article I was thinking of. Thanks athena!

Good article.

[Taverner]

61. My guess is the French folks whom they refer to are a minority

[joshcryer]

67. My guess is that you're wrong.

[Taverner]

79. I've lived with French Expats. I've known Quebec French.

As far as I understood, this kind of activity would result in a swift, hard knee to the nuts.

They may be able to absolove themselves by saying 'Cest la Vie - I'm French!' but the resulting knee in the nuts is something to fear. It is a strike against not just you, but all of your potential offspring.

For that reason, I think its the exception rather than the norm.

[geek tragedy]

69. Give me good old fashioned American justice where

a poor immigrant maid's word is enough to have one of the most powerful and influential men in the world arrested.

I know in France they consider themselves above such barbaric cowboy justice norms, preferring the much more civilized approach of treating rules as something the truly 'exceptional' men should be freed from.

[joshcryer]

70. I dunno that you can say it's American justice but you can't deny it's NY justice!

I dunno if this same issue would've been treated similarly in the south, for example. I could be wrong, of course.

[seabeyond]

74. exactly. perfectly stated, imo.... geek. nt

[tabasco]

71. They loved Jerry Lewis.

Just can't figure 'em out.

[provis99]

73. ah, those Latin Lovers.

really, the Latin Lover stereotype is just an excuse for male chauvinist pig French and Italian men to be crude pigs to women, and then brag what great lovers they are.

[seabeyond]

76. that is how i always saw it. nt

[BOG PERSON]

75. suddenly i see pepe le pew as a ravenous sexual predator

[seabeyond]

78. he did use a lot of aggressivenes/force. nt