Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

What Osama bin Laden, Troy Davis, and You Have in Common

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
 
davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 01:52 PM
Original message
What Osama bin Laden, Troy Davis, and You Have in Common
So, the United States invaded Mexico, lied about it, killed, raped, pillaged, and stole half the country for the cause of expanding slavery in our growing continental empire. Then a devastated rump Mexico was invaded by the French who wanted their debts repaid, but the Mexicans won a big battle against the French on the Fifth of May, leading Americans to buy several tons of tacos and thousands of gallons of beer every Cinco de Mayo. Viva international solidarity in the land of Might-Makes-Right!

Secularists and Congressman Pete Stark have declared May 5th the Day of Reason, but how many people know that, how many television stations will stand for it, and how many Americans are even pretending to be reasonable?

I've been reflecting during this Cinco de Mayo on exactly how pervasive in my country is the idea that violence can solve all problems. I just watched a powerful documentary called American Holocaust about the war on Vietnam. Great footage and great narration by Martin Sheen. The mission of the U.S. military in Vietnam was to kill as many people as possible, and the currency became sliced-off ears. Bring back the ears and get your pay from the U.S. government. That's how it worked. Watch an officer admit to it in this film. Nowadays we minimize death-counts instead of celebrating them, but in Afghanistan fingers seem to have become the most common trophy among those continuing the national tradition.

Almost every movie playing at any theater near me right now is heavily violent. And the front page story in the local newspaper is a nearby triple homicide. A Swedish movie that was recently a big hit here and around the United States called "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo," involved a scene remarkably similar to a sick and sadistic crime reported today from Oklahoma. And then there's Troy Davis.

Here's a good summary of the case of Troy Davis, an almost certainly innocent black man likely to be killed soon by the state of Georgia. Most of the world has abolished the death penalty, including Canada, Mexico, all of Central America, half of South America, all of Europe, Australia, and much of Africa and Asia. The big users of the death penalty are the United States, China, and the nations we call the Middle East.

What does Troy Davis have to do with Osama bin Laden? Davis is widely believed to be innocent. Bin Laden was widely believed to be guilty. Davis is an African American. Bin Laden was a foreigner, a Muslim, and a terrorist. Davis is poor. Bin Laden was rich. Democratic Party loyalists tolerate opposition to killing Davis but condemn as treasonous and racist those who object to the killing of bin Laden. Surely these cases have nothing in common.

An even more significant difference between the two cases would exist if the initial lies coming out of the White House had not been so swiftly retracted. That is, had bin Laden been killed in a fire fight with people attempting to arrest him, his killing might be legal and regretted. It appears, however, that he was killed unarmed in a swift action aimed at killing him. And one can understand why that was probably the plan.

Had bin Laden been given a trial as unfair as Troy Davis's treatment by our judicial system, there would have been a huge uproar. Those who believe in the rule of law would have objected to the unfairness. Those who believe in the rule of violence would have objected to giving him any trial at all. Those obsessed with the symbolism of closing Guantanamo would have objected to holding him there. Holding him in another illegal prison would have called attention (and possible violence) to it. Holding him in the United States would have resulted in impeachment proceedings and any number of Americans dying of heart attacks. Instead bin Laden was killed.

Overturning Davis' conviction would similarly expose a very flawed process. Proceeding with killing Davis, as with bin Laden, is viewed by those in power as a cleaner, less messy, solution. Put the matter behind us, they say, by murdering a human being. Caring for Davis comes easily to us; it involves the sort of effort that Jesus of Nazareth dismissed as unworthy of praise. Caring for bin Laden is not just difficult but almost universally condemned as malicious and disloyal. Yet that is what Jesus told us needed to be done.

Now, I oppose caring for anyone at the expense of others. Letting bin Laden off the hook would send the wrong message to potential future criminals. Prosecuting him in court would send the right one. But what about executing him in his Pakistani home? What message does that send? Primarily, the same one that killing Davis in a Georgia prison sends: might makes right. Murder makes justice. War is peace. Life is a superhero cartoon and your government is the superhero.

And what does this have to do with you and me? Well, we have to live in the most violent wealthy nation on earth. We have to live in close proximity to heavily armed people thrown out of work and out of house and home, people trained to believe that violence can solve their problems, people conditioned to use violence in our foreign wars and then never reconditioned afterwards. This puts us all at risk.

We will not solve this by picking which acts of violence to protest.

We will solve it by opposing violence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
xocet Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. True....
It is important to make a distinction between violence and justice.

It was wrong for President Obama to state in regard to Osama bin Laden's death that "Justice has been done." Rather, apparent violence was met with violence. We are simply stronger - we prevailed. Thus, the end of bin Laden is an act of violence, not justice.

Having a fair trial for bin Laden - if bin Laden had been taken alive - would have been the first step down the path of doing justice. After all, it should be recalled that the Nazis killed a lot more people than Al Qaeda has: yet, there were trials for the Nazis after WWII.

We as a nation have allowed our ideals to degrade - if, indeed, they were ever truly our ideals. What is to be feared more than the end of the pursuit of justice and the end of the pursuit of the rule of law? Surely, it would not be Al Qaeda; they pale in comparison to the Nazis. Yet, sadly, in this media-saturated age, we have come to fear Al Qaeda more than we fear the abandonment of the pursuit of justice and the abandonment of the pursuit of the rule of law.




(Quotation of President Obama taken from: http://themoderatevoice.com/108482/video-president-barack-obamas-announcement-that-osama-bin-laden-killed/)



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Wonderful response. Wish i could rec your response. Please
consider using for your own OP.

Thanks again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marnie Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. So, the United States invaded Mexico, lied about it, killed, raped, pillaged, and stole half the cou
"So, the United States invaded Mexico, lied about it, killed, raped, pillaged, and stole half the country for the cause of expanding slavery in our growing continental empire."

What a load of revisionists crap.

The northern Mexican states that are roughly equivalent the southern boarder states and northern Mexico attempted jointly and severally three times to secede from Mexico. They were heavily taxes but had little protection or help with building infrastructure. Each attempt was met with savage assaults, assassination, brutality, rape, and all the the violence that makes men love war.

They had little hope of winning any battle against Mexican military forces as much of their population was peons (translate as roughly equivalent to slaves) who were unarmed and untrained. Plus population was sparse and cash to support armies very scarce. Travel was very difficult and very time consuming, and there were the Indians to deal with as well, as they didn't care for having their lands and freedoms exterminated.

That is until the now hated Southern Gringos, who were armed and many of whom had experience in the Indian wars of extermination began moving to Tejas and the other Mexican states.

With tacit support of the US there was finally a fighting chance for those states to gain freedom and end the violence that Mexico City had unleashed on them every time they rebelled.

Cotton and tobacco the heavily labor intensive crops that were supported by slavery do not grow much further west of the Mississippi than east Texas, it is too hot and too dry, or much north or Mississippi, it is too cold and too dry. So the piney woods of Eastern Texas and the coastal plains of Eastern Texas were the only places where intense manual labor was really a necessity at the time.

Slavery west of the Mississippi was a political issue not a reality based issue. And was not a reason for the US to invade Mexico. Imperialism was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xocet Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Sic essay, man.... It is unfortunate that it does not even address my reply to the OP.
"...revisionists (sic).... (sic)"
"...equivalent (sic) the southern boarder (sic)...."
"...were heavily taxes (sic)...."
"...and all the violence that makes men love war. (sick)"
"Cotton and tobacco (sic)...by slavery (sic)... Texas (sic) ...."
"So (sic) ...."
"...reality based (sic)...."
"(sic) And ...."





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Most superheros don't kill.
Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, all usually don't carry guns.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Boo-fucking-hoo...
I unrecc'd it because I think it's nonsense.

Sid
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sonoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Which part?
The stuff about the land-grab from Mexico was true.

The Vietnam part was true.

Troy Davis is almost certainly innocent. That said, I have no problems with capital punishment.

What part do you see as nonsense? I am not being argumentative, just curious.

I am also curious as to why you would revisit a post that you consider nonsense.

Sonoman
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Pretty much everything from bin Laden on down...
and I didn't revisit the OP. I revisited your post which was whining about unrec, and called those who have a different opinion than you assholes.

Sid
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Much like calling different opinions "nonsense"
"called those who have a different opinion than you assholes..."

Much like calling different opinions "nonsense" Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Although I'm fully confidant you'll righteously rationalize your own part...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You can't tell the difference between opinions and people?...
Edited on Thu May-05-11 04:30 PM by SidDithers
Really?

Sid
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rep the dems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. You curiously didn't say anything about the part about bin Laden being nonsense.
Edited on Thu May-05-11 05:07 PM by rep the dems
AKA, the main argument of the original poster. And you called people assholes for quietly disagreeing with it. Very nice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. No, no, no! You've got it all wrong
Well, you've got the facts right. And you've got the conclusions right. But you're not supposed to say things like "might makes right" or "murder makes justice." That's so . . . unseemly. And it makes a lot of people in the United States as uncomfortable as folks in Galilee were when that Jesus character was spouting off his nonsense. So could you please not say such inflammatory things, and just let us slaughter people as long as "everyone" agrees they're bad?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. what'r you gonna do
crucify me?

:-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. The way things are going . . .
It is indeed distressing to me to see so many people with such profound doubts about our system of government. I rather expect that from the yammerers amongst the Tea Baggers and their ilk. And the pants-wetters we will apparently have with us always. But far too many folks who should know better and who have seen successful prosecutions of the likes of Timothy McVeigh and Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman have succumbed to the alarmists or the neatniks or something else to think that we can no longer conduct a criminal trial.

It's not too dangerous to try criminals, even really bad ones. It takes only the political will to trust the system as it is set up, and leaders willing to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution with the same moxie they show in sending troops hither and yon to enforce the edicts of the empire.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. I think it would just make things much cleaner and nicer for all
Edited on Thu May-05-11 05:55 PM by coalition_unwilling
concerned if we execute people accused of capital crimes without giving them a trial first. The mere affirmation of the (insert your favorite authority figure here) should be enough to rid us of these vermin. Or, as one DUer famously put it, Obama "removed" a terrorist. So nice, so clean, so sanitary.

:sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-11 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Copy and paste, rinse, repeat. Must get tiresome typing that out in every third thread. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prof Lester Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-11 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
16. Murder is wrong and it's illegal. Period. Law is law.
Don't matter who does it. The insane bullshit that murder is OK if the POTUS does it is transparently wrong, no matter how many sadists, kooks, perverts, or "constitutional lawyers" say otherwise. Murder is wrong because it's wrong. Period. A republic is supposed to be a lawful, law-directed state. There is no provision anywhere for letting the POTUS or the Joint Chiefs or the DIA or the CIA or the DOA or the ACDC or anybody else commit murder without being tried for it. Period. Otherwise, hang it up, Jim. The republic is dead. There's nothing left but chaos and wild anarchy. In which case you have NO business complaining about anything because there is no law. You don't like what happened when such and such did so and so? Too bad. When there's no law, there's no law. Tough shit. Right? No? Remember that thing from the movie.. "I'm taking your milkshake"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-11 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Way to butcher a great movie line. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fuddnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
19. "The Trial of Henry Kissinger"
I was sitting around last night, and found it on Netflix.

Suppose some country in Asia decided they wanted to try Kissinger, and we refused to turn him over? Would they be justified in sending a commando team to assassinate him?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Yes! Yes! Absolutely!!!
Please?

And I needn't point out that the same logic would have applied to Bush while in office (or any other president) who behaves illegally to other countries. Under this system of morality, they simply have a right to stop him, which means that they need their own predator drones too.

I wouldn't mind some myself. Instead of wasting the police's time trying to track down my stolen guitar, especially given that their odds are nearly zero anyways, I should just target a missile on the ID chip in the thing. Problem solved. That guy'll never steal another guitar.

You may consider as much of this post sarcasm as you choose.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-11 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
20. Excellent.
Great piece in a land forged in violence where it is considered sacred honor.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC