Killing Resolves Nothing

[davidswanson]

The plane I was on landed in Washington, D.C., Sunday night, and the pilot came on the intercom to tell everyone to celebrate: our government had killed Osama bin Laden. This was better than winning the Super Bowl, he said.

Set aside for a moment the morality of cheering for the killing of a human being -- which despite the pilot's prompting nobody on the plane did. In purely Realpolitik terms, killing foreign leaders whom we've previously supported has been an ongoing disaster.

Our killing of Saddam Hussein has been followed by years of war and hundreds of thousands of pointless deaths. Our attempts to kill Muammar Gadaffi have killed his children and grandchildren and will end no war if they eventually succeed. Our attempts to kill Osama bin Laden, including wars justified by that mission, have involved nearly a decade of senseless slaughter in Afghanistan and the rest of the ongoing global "generational" war that is consuming our nation.

The Taliban was willing to turn bin Laden over for trial both before and after September 11, 2001. Instead our government opted for years of bloody warfare. And in the end, it was police action (investigation, a raid, and a summary execution) and not the warfare, that reportedly tracked bin Laden down in Pakistan. After capturing him, our government's representatives did not hold him for trial. They killed him and carried away his dead body.

Killing will lead only to more killing. There will be no review of bin Laden's alleged crimes, as a trial would have provided. There will be no review of earlier U.S. support for bin Laden. There will be no review of U.S. failures to prevent the September 11th attacks. Instead, there will be bitterness, hatred, and more violence, with the message being communicated to all sides that might makes right and murder is the way in which someone is, in President Obama's words, brought to justice.

Nothing is actually resolved, nothing concluded, and nothing to be celebrated in taking away life. If we want something to celebrate here, we should celebrate the end of one of the pieces of war propaganda that has driven the past decade of brutality and death. But I'm not going to celebrate that until appropriate actions follow. Nothing makes for peace like ceasing to wage war. Now would be an ideal time to give that a try.

Our senseless wars in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and Libya must be ended. Keeping bin Laden alive and threatening, assisted in keeping the war machine churning its bloody way through cities and flesh for years. No wonder President Bush was, as he said, not interested in tracking bin Laden down.

Ending the wars was our moral duty last week exactly as this week. But if the symbolism to be found in the removal of a key propaganda piece can be combined with the recent overwhelming U.S. support for ending the wars, to actually end the wars, then I'll be ready -- with clean hands and with no nasty gleam of revenge in my eye -- to pop open the champagne.

But let's return to the morality of cheering for the killing of a human being. A decade ago that would not have seemed as natural to a U.S. airline pilot. The automatic assumption would not have been that there could be no dissenters to that celebration. A decade ago torture was considered irredeemably evil. A decade ago we believed people should have fair trials before they are declared guilty or killed. A decade ago, if a president had announced his new power to assassinate Americans, at least a few people would have asked where in the world he got the power to assassinate non-Americans.

Is it too late to go back 10 years in time in some particular ways? As we put bin Laden behind us, can we put the degredation of our civil liberties and our representative government, and our honesty, accountability, and the rule of law behind us too? Can we recover the basic moral deceny that we used to at the very least pretend and aspire to?

Not while we're dancing in the street to celebrate death.

Imagine the propaganda that the U.S. media could make of video footage of a foreign country where the primitive brutes are dancing in the streets to celebrate the murder of a tribal enemy. That is the propaganda we've just handed those who will view bin Laden as a martyr. When their revenge comes, we will know exactly what we are supposed to do: exact more revenge in turn to keep the cycle going.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, but the blind people think that they still see. The world looks to them like a Hollywood adventure movie. In those stories, killing somone generally causes a happy ending. That misconception is responsible for piles and piles of corpses to which more will now be added.

[FrenchieCat]

1. At least those 2800+ didn't die without there being some kind of justice.

People are dancing not for death, but for justice.

[Hannah Bell]

30. justice my ass.

[Name removed]

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[msanthrope]

132. Did you have a Happy May Day, Hannah? I did. n/t

[FarLeftFist]

158. Bin Laden wasn't really a Foreign Leader.

He was a terrorist. And as a NY'er myself it feels good to put this era to rest.

[firehorse]

205. this NY'er wonders if its really the end or scripted reality TV whitehouse style

I don't feel more safe today - in fact I feel like the kindling has just been lit. And I wasn't thrilled listening to the president read a page from Guiliani's propaganda script.

[defendandprotect]

274. +1 --

Actually, I didn't see any of this --

but for some reason even Guiliani turned from the "celebrating" -- !!

I was glad to hear that the passengers on the plane didn't see it quite

as the pilot did -- at least that's something!

What knocks me out is how convinced the public is by the corporate-press they

distrust on every other issue -- that OBL managed to pull this off -- !!

Otoh, had the White House/Pentagon told us that the USSR had pulled this off we'd

still be :rofl: -- !!!

That's where I begin -- who really did this? And, certainly I don't come up with OBL!!

Unless Cheney turned over control of NORAD and every other part of our government to him

just prior to 9/11????

[Name removed]

217. Deleted message

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[Carolina]

195. +1

justice my ass indeed

[proud2BlibKansan]

219. All day long I kept thinking we sure didn't stop war after we killed Sadaam

[cpwm17]

140. Now we need justice for US victim's

Perhaps a commando team from Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan, or elsewhere can do the deed. There are a number of good targets for assassination in the US.

I don't think this would get much support in the US or on DU, and for good reason: violence is a bad way to conduct business. Almost always, with rare exception, violence is not the answer and David Swanson is proven correct. Just imagine how much better off we would be if David Swanson was running US foreign policy rather than the clowns and criminals we've had in our country. Strangely, many folks here think David Swanson is a kook.

[Ikonoklast]

144. I hope you aren't serious.

There are people in this world that would kill you, me, David Swanson and everyone in this country if they had a chance.

If the OP was running foreign policy this country would cease to be inside of a month.

He doesn't either believe or understand that yes, there are some bad actors on the world stage who will not make nice with you, no matter how hard you try to make them like you.

Ask Chamberlain.

He could give OP some insight about making nice with murderous madmen, and how successful that strategy is in the real world.

[cpwm17]

214. Do you scare easy?

We shouldn't go around the world acting like a scared-shitless, crybaby bully. It is us that the rest of the world must fear.

I'm old enough to remember the claim that that the Vietnamese don't value their lives like we do. That is because we were able to slaughter them by the millions. No, it couldn't be us that didn't value their lives - of course not. It was their fault for standing under US bombs in their own homeland. Not much has change.

[defendandprotect]

275. +1 --- and a round of applause for that one -- !!! Keep on tellin' it -- !!!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[LupinSansei72]

285. what's wrong with the celebrations? nothing!

For the past 10 years, our country and way of life was very much in danger thanks to Osama. And while you might be upset about people celebrating his death at the hands of the SEALS, Osama and his henchmen wouldn't have given a second thought to kill every single one of us. I'm sorry, but there are some people who simply don't believe in compassion, they're monsters. When you have an opportunity to get rid of someone so dangerous, you take it. Trying to be nice to the likes of Osama is bullshit.

There are times to be compassionate--helping Japan after the earthquake/tsuami/nuclear meltdowns--and there are also times when you either drop the hammer or get the hammer dropped on you. That's the way the world works,a nd before you call me a bloodthirsty SOB, I happen to be a Buddhist.

My personal motto is taken from the Shinsengumi, "aku zoku zan"--which literally means destroy evil immediatley.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

166. yes, where's the justice for the 100,000 + Dead Iraqis?

that had nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden or 911?

Where's the justice for them?

[Carolina]

199. exactly

I cannot get past all the death and destruction the US has wrought on others (innocent others like those in the Twin Towers) since 9/11

AND importantly, I cannot get past the fact that bin Laden was "our guy." The US trained him to be destructive precisely to bring a mighty power (USSR) to its knees. OBL was once a US puppet like Saddam Hussein, Pinochet and the Shah of Iran! He is but one of a long line of figures that have wrought BLOWBACK (See Chalmers Johnson’s book Blowback).

From the injustice of two Bush wars against Iraq, future bin Ladens will surely rise

[defendandprotect]

276. Think it's more like a million -- and before this new attack half a million babies ---

20 years of bomb Iraq before this last 10 years!!

Depeleted uranium which we refused to clean up!!

I'm disgusted enough with our leadership -- both Dem and Repug -- and something

like yesterday's suggestions of celebrations here was really unnerving.

How many of us will be coming back to this planet as a Muslim or a victim?

Is this really the thinking we want government our future lives?

[roody]

224. Justice is served in a court of law in civilized countries.

[sabrina 1]

229. Justice? We have already killed over one million human beings

and we call that justice too.

Where is the justice for them, and what do you think THEY, innocent as they were, having nothing at all, especially the tens of thousands of children we've killed and tortured, to do with OUR problems.

And where is the justice for the innocents who were tortured and held for years without trial? When they try to get some justice in our courts, every time our courts rule against them.

I don't think we can speak much about justice. The celebrations are for the feeling that we got revenge, retaliation and so the cycle of violence will continue and there will be more injustice, on all sides.

From Martin Luther King who was probably nothing more than a dreamer with a lot more faith in human nature than I have right now:

Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.

So long since his death and we are nowhere near that kind of evolvement, if anything watching the acceptance of torture as a policy and extra-judicial assassinations and no attempt to hold public trials for those we accuse, I think we are further away than ever from what he dreamed of.

[alarimer]

233. We have caused far more deaths than that through these pointless wars

5000+ US military deaths
hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead, not to mention all the untold thousands of others caught in the crossfire.

Millions displaced from their homes.

A couple thousand dead Americans do not justify the actions we have taken through the years. They could have had bin Laden years ago if they really wanted to. Bush lied us into several pointless wars in the name of those dead Americans. And it was not worth it, not by a long shot.

[defendandprotect]

277. ... and doubt there's a soldier who comes home without PTSD ...!!

[JoeyT]

244. And what of those that fell trying to bring that justice?

Where is their justice? When will the people that made the decision that killed them, most of whom died unnecessarily in the wrong country entirely, be brought to justice?

Instead that person retired to his ranch and lives quite comfortably and gives speeches for a great deal of money.

That's the difference between justice and revenge. Revenge is for those that can take it, justice is for everyone.

[alcibiades_mystery]

2. Pfffffft

[Cali_Democrat]

3. We've created many more Bin Ladens thanks to our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

Now Libya.

Bin Laden might be dead, but anti-American terrorism will live on thanks to our foreign policy.

Am I the only one that sees this?

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. No, you are not -

but we seem to be the minority here.

We created him. He killed 3000 of us. Then we killed tens of thousands trying to get him, losing thousands more in the doing of it.

The ends did not justify the means or the sacrifices incurred

So much of the celebration is in the lines of "it's over", but it is far from over.

[man4allcats]

189. This was my first thought.

It amazes me that more people don't see this. I've never really thought of myself as particularly gifted, but sometimes I honestly wonder if maybe I am after all a visionary or if in fact everyone else could actually be all that short-sighted. :shrug:

[smirkymonkey]

194. +1000

I know, sometimes, I am just like WTF? I don't think anything has changed and it may possibly get worse.

[crickets]

41. No, you're not the only one.

The talking heads trying to downplay OBL's importance in Al Qaeda in recent years only (unintentionally) underscore this point.

For everyone who's so happy he's dead: me too, but not in a celebratory sense. We put a lot of effort into his training after all. Like Saddam, he was 'ours' to begin with.

I think they call it blowback.

[Agony]

71. Almost...

Sure feels that way

Cheers,
Agony

[cpwm17]

91. No, you're not the only one who sees this

Bin Laden didn't start this cycle of violence, and killing him won't end it. I shed no tears for his death, but I know it will do little good.

Our foreign policy is what started this cycle of violence, and Bin Laden was clear about this fact. Islam has little to do with it. Our foreign policy cannot be defended. America's reaction to 9-11 proves his point. Far more people suffered due to our reaction to 9-11 than suffered from it. The US Government gave Bin Laden exactly what he wanted - except for death. We fell for his trap.

Clearly Osama Bin Laden didn't want to die and become a martyr since he made such efforts to stay alive. Perhaps he didn't fully believe his stupid religion, but I digress.

[neoralme]

134. I see it as clearly as you. But, then, I have a bunch of questions

that I'll be asking throughout the day. A few things do not make sense.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

167. you are exactly right.

n/t

[emilyg]

177. +10

[Carolina]

201. no, I totally agree

See my replies upthread. Bin Laden's actions were blowback against the defilement of mecca by US troops in the first Gulf (Bush I) War!

[firehorse]

206. I agree

[defendandprotect]

279. Agree -- Wars only serve elites who profit from them -- and from knocking out Constitutional

rights behind the screen of war!!

[blondeatlast]

4. Sorry, but I'm human and I know people who died in 9/11.

Their guilt was going to work on a lovely autumn morning and that creepy little prick killed them as if with his own cold hands.

I'm doing a little chair jig, thoroughly guilt-free.

[The Magistrate]

6. Indeed, Ma'am: This Is Pretty Silly Swill

[tigereye]

80. hey, sir! Hope you and yours are well!

Long time! :hi:

[blueamy66]

93. Me too!

And maybe, just maybe, the pilot on said plane had a friend or two who were killed on 9-11.

I know my Dad is smiling in Heaven, as he lost a few American Airline friends that day.

[Bluenorthwest]

100. The OP author is a professional 'comment maker'

and he fails from that ivory tower that for the pilot making the announcement, several people in his position had died that day, among the first to die, pilots at work.
I wonder if several paid political pundits had been the first to die, if the author might feel differently?

[blueamy66]

102. I have to admit that I don't follow this poster.

Yes, I do believe that if several paid political pundits had been the first to die, the author may feel differently...or not, cause there are some crazy people in this world.

I just cannot understand holier than thou people. Their mindsets are beyond me. Are they devoid of emotion? feeling? human nature???

[Carolina]

202. And there were hundreds

of thousands of innocent Iraqis going about their business in March 2003 when Bush (and the complicit Congress with IWR) unleashed Shock and Awe.

Jig all you want but OBL's death will not staunch the future blowback. And never forget the USA Middle East foreign policy started it to begin with!

[Sevenfold]

278. Exactly, on my mind too

should we dance in the streets when the murderous mastermind that killed over 3,000 innocent civilians (not including the "hostiles") is killed? Not 9-11, but "Shock and Awe"? Bush acknowledged those casualties were to be expected and still commenced knowing all those people would be killed. Bush and OBL were more similar in cause and perceived justification than many people think. Have the boundaries of our "countries" really made the loss of "American" lives worse than the loss of "Iraqi" lives? Aren't they ALL innocent humans?

[Name removed]

280. Deleted message

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[Make7]

5. I believe the killing is a feature, not a bug. ( n/t )

[Swede]

7. TLDNR

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. Please, for the unititiated,

what the fuck does that mean?

[Swede]

too long did not read

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. Then why click on it?

[Swede]

18. I didn't know it was so fucking long.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[cali]

62. +1

someone has cornered the market on ego driven sactimony.

[marions ghost]

145. ego driven sanctimony

seems to be coming from both sides...

:shrug:

[Raine]

67. +2 nt

[zanana1]

69. I'm certainly not hanging on his every word.

It seems he always has to find the fly in the ointment and unhappy if he can't.

[Zorra]

97. Hmm...ah, NM. nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

8. Unrec. (nt)

[Cherchez la Femme]

255. Hey, you're turning into Sid's little padawan, aren't you?

Well, good luck with that! :rofl:

[bluestateguy]

9. bin Laden is not human being. He is a monster

I truly believe he was not of the human species.

[Gamow]

10. agreed, except... he WAS a monster. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. He was a human being who did a monstrous thing.

Sorry, but facts is facts.

Just proves how effective the propaganda is - the first job of a war monger is to convince you that the enemy is not human.

[Warren DeMontague]

17. And while perhaps some time in one of our penal institutions, that we've filled with drug users

would in time have rehabilitated him, he was surrounded in his massive compound by armed guards and clearly not going to come quietly without a firefight.

So, now he's dead.

Boo Hoo.

[crickets]

45. +1

(And that was not an easy affirmation to give, but props for truth.)

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[Ikonoklast]

31. What would you have done, buy the fucker an ice cream cone?

He was just misunderstood, right?

He got exactly what he deserved, and any crocodile tears shed for him by the PL is laughable.

[adigal]

137. Not celebrating death does not equate to buying him an ice cream

Not a good comparison. I don't think we should be celebrating in the streets for the death of anyone, no matter how heinous. My husband was a NYC firefighter, he was disabled with the clean-up of 9/11 and neither he, nor I, feel that cheering this person's death is moral, nor does it bring anyone back. And it just gives the other side the right to say we are as bad as they are. A candlelight vigil would have been a better response, IMHO. Not climbing lampposts and waving flags, chanting USA, USA!!!

[marions ghost]

147. +++++ thank you adigal

"A candlelight vigil would have been a better response, IMHO. Not climbing lampposts and waving flags, chanting USA, USA!!!" (And that from the spouse of a NYC firefighter).

People, there are two sides to this. Not everyone has the same reaction. We can have different responses.

[avaistheone1]

242. Thank you.

I appreciate your sanity. It's so rare around here right now.

[Tveil]

193. Bunch of party poopers N/T

[Hannah Bell]

33. +100

[Hissyspit]

27. Demonization

is pretty useless.

[bluestateguy]

38. Uh yeah, because bin Laden is a demon

So demonization would be quite appropriate.

[Hissyspit]

42. You don't seem to understand the word.

[RaleighNCDUer]

182. Actually, as unbelievable as it may seem, there are a lot of people

in this country who believe in the existence of real, physical, living demons. And even more who believe in demons as non-physical entities who can seize control of people.

Even DU is not immune from such irrationality.

[Hannah Bell]

32. lol.

[Hissyspit]

44. He had horns, you know.

And goat hooves.

[Solomon]

94. I beg to differ. Demonization is definitely not "useless".

Works all the time. Ain't that what the republicans do to us daily?

[iverglas]

65. insert heading here

because I just couldn't think of one.

You don't truly believe he was not human. So that was just pointless noise.

The fundamental, the most fundamental, the essential component of our own humanity is that we recognize the humanity of every other human being.

Once the humanity of one person is denied, a slippery slope has been embarked on that can end only in horrors.

No "slippery slope argument" here. What you have proposed is a genuine slippery slope.

[somone]

13. Mourning bin Laden is like mourning Charles Manson

[Hissyspit]

28. Where is there mourning for bin Laden in the OP?

Misrepresentation is fail.

[Hannah Bell]

34. straw men make baby jesus cry

[Name removed]

283. Deleted message

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[Warren DeMontague]

14. Too fucking bad. I remember watching people jumping out of buildings b/c they had no choice.

You know what? Good fucking riddance to that shithead.

[Oasis_]

22. Exactly

He was human, but also a murderous monster and I'm overjoyed he's finally dead. Early reports stated a SEAL killed him and I would love to buy that hero a drink--for me, my country, all the unfortunate souls that had their lives prematurely extinguished on 9/11, their families, and all of humanity.

That fucker is dead, and the world today is better for it.

Oasis

[Hannah Bell]

35. it's the hypocrisy

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Is it?

Still, too fucking bad.

Good riddance.

[Union Scribe]

51. So? People are hypocrites. Show me one who isn't.

This is an exceptional circumstance, and I'm not a perfect person so...woo fucking hoo.

[WatsonT]

120. What hypocrisy?

If someone were to say that killing is always wrong, then yeah it would be hypocritical to cheer this.

But if you were to say that killing innocent people is wrong then there is no hypocrisy.

[dkf]

19. Killing foreign leaders? Since when does Bin Laden qualify?

[anneboleyn]

262. Exactly. I wouldn't have been crying over Hitler or Himmler either

if the Allies had gotten to them before the gun/cyanide did. Of course Himmler was in custody but the coward pretended to be someone else then revealed his true identity as he killed himself.

[defendandprotect]

284. ... but there were no doubts as to what they did -- who but W and Cheney and Rumsfeld

told you that OBL did 9/11?

Was it the corporate-press which is so distrusted here at DU for its lies?

[Old and In the Way]

20. What might we have learned had OBL been captured alive and brought to trial?

More than what some people might want to know.

[laconicsax]

26. +1

[Hannah Bell]

36. +100

[crickets]

46. THIS. -nt

[blueamy66]

125. Yeah, cause I'm sure that he would have sung like a bird.

NOT

[PufPuf23]

209. Osama Bin Laden would have been a unsinging bird in captivity.

One could believe in the most extreme conspiracy in any direction or be moderate and still expect an unsinging bird.

Osama Bin Laden was likely protected by some elites in Pakistan.

The death will energize Muslim extremists over the short term just like those that celebrate points in a holistic human catatrophe (war) as a win in a sporting event. T

he lack of video in messages of a live man was weird over the years on the Lam, especially now we know OBL was not in a cave, rather a military-oriented suburb / agriculture area of the Capitol, Islamabad and just near the gates of Pakistan's West Point.

I am curious as the most curious fly on the wall and probably that is why I am at DU.

Still I think better captured than killed for what possible intelligence could occur or even a coming together in a positive fashion.

[Cherchez la Femme]

257. Sung? No. Bragged? Indubitably!

[pecwae]

150. +1

[Zorra]

162. Maybe, but couldn't he have said anything anytime he wanted?

I know the MSM is controlled, but he could have found a way to expose his friends if he wanted.

If he was already protecting his friends, he would not say anything at a trial either.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

169. Exactly

I'm sure the intelligence establishment didn't want the public reminded that Bin Laden started out as a CIA asset. Among other things.

[truth2power]

181. I got in the car to come home about an hour ago...

On NPR some woman was saying, (paraphrased) "There are some people who believe that Bin laden was our creation, but that's just a conspiracy theory."

The propaganda machine just goes on and on. :puke:

[Carolina]

204. exactly

same with Saddam Hussein.

Both were our guys once upon a time... had to silence them to keep the sheeple from learning the truth.

[stevenleser]

236. Yes, including how many supporters would take hostages and bomb things to get him released n/t

[Lasher]

21. Well I'm pretty sure bin Laden won't be taunting us with any more video and audio recordings

As a matter of fact he won't be doing anything. He's dead.

[Hannah Bell]

37. not that he had been anyway.

[Lasher]

54. Well he'll never make another one. That is resolved.

David's silly argument is easily defeated.

[Cherchez la Femme]

258. What is the provenance

...the story... behind your video clip?
I've never heard about Obama kicking a door before.


Edit: & BTW, that clip with your subtitles makes it look like the President is pissed that bin Laden is dead...

[Trajan]

23. I am no fan of death ....

But to say that OBL would have been turned over directly to Obama is absurd ....

Yeah ? ... to Bush you say ? .... Perhaps .... But that was not the case come 2009 ....

I think it is clear to everyone that bin Laden was not going to be captured .... That is not the style of a committed religious extremist ...

You have my sympathies for the loss you suffered today .... But I am personally satisfied that a mass murderer has reaped what he has sown ....

It's not vengeance, when a criminal refuses to 'give' at the time of arrest, and I could almost assure you he was not going to 'give' ....

[coalition_unwilling]

25. Thank you. Americans really should study the history of the

30 Years War (1618-48) to see how irridentism plays itself out.

It's a story as old as humankind itself but one that bears repeating. In Matthew 5:38-39, Jesus explicitly repudiates this 'eye for an eye' way of thinking. That was 2000-some years ago but some are still slow to catch on.

You put this far more eloquently than I ever could.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. Jesus probably was a historical fiction.

Anyway, Bin Laden was in a compound with armed guards. I'm sorry, should we have let him off with a stern warning?

[Hannah Bell]

29. kr.

[themadstork]

43. Explain how he was executed.

[iverglas]

66. the expression used was "summary execution"

sometimes known also as "extra-judicial execution".

It's what paramilitary death squads and lynch mobs do. Killing w/o charges or trial, without legitimate authority, claiming some other kind of legitimacy (moral, public interest, whatever).

I haven't seen enough facts and details yet to know whether the concept really applies in this case, i.e. whether there was a reasonable alternative to the killing available. I just thought you might want to revisit your question in light of what was actually said.

[themadstork]

157. That's what I meant to ask about.

I wasn't aware of the difference in terminology. A sincere thanks for the correction.

I have not seen facts that support framing this as an extra-judicial execution. If davidswanson has sources that indicate otherwise it'd be nice if he could share them.

[coalition_unwilling]

179. Will Reuters be enough for you? If so, check this out:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-kill-idUSTRE7413H220110502

So, for starters, OBL was not 'resisting arrest.' I hope that little rationalization can be put to rest now.

[themadstork]

190. Now that's interesting.

Is that the entire article? Have any major newspapers explored this?

We should have a thread for the strict purpose of gatherng sources as details come out. So much is getting lost in the posturing and the noise.

Honestly I both don't understand why they would make it a kill op, and I don't think it's right or legal. Egh

How do you know he wasn't resisting? In your link I saw only one brief paragraph. Is there more of it somewhere?

[eqfan592]

207. I've heard differently from several different news outlets...

..citing multiple sources inside the government. While the expectation was that he would end up dead, I've heard that the option was on the table for him to be captured if able.

[defendandprotect]

286. Unarmed, Not resisting arrest -- and it was a "Kill operation" -- seems pretty definite ...

they didn't want to take him prisoner!

[ZombieHorde]

48. I don't know if I agree with your thoughtful OP, but I really appreciate the alternative view point.

Especially since you backed it up with multiple arguments.

[Union Scribe]

49. Solve? No, it didn't solve anything. It didn't have to. It was satisfying.

That's a good enough reason in this case.

I don't care if it's indecent. It's bullshit to claim we were decent before we celebrated this anyway. And death ain't that bad a thing to celebrate, really.

[ProSense]

50. "There will be no review of bin Laden's alleged crimes, as a trial would have provided. "

:rofl:

[Cherchez la Femme]

259. What do you find so hilarious about that sentence, pray tell?

[kenny blankenship]

52. Consider it a formality, then

[Raine]

53. No boo hoo hooing from me ... I'm glad he's dead nt

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[johnaries]

56. "Resolves"? No-one is claiming this "resolves" anything.

As for the video footage you mention, perhaps you forget the video footage of bin Laden "praising God" of the thousands of innocents that were killed.

"Turn the other cheek" simply does not always work. I was bullied in school, and I "turned the other cheek" as much as I could. It worked sometimes - sometimes it did not. The biggest bully I ever dealt with did not relent until I confronted him - and beat him.

This is the REAL WORLD, David.

There is a time for diplomacy, and there is a time for action. I'll admit that too many times in the history of the US we opted for action when we should have chosen diplomacy.

This is NOT one of those times.

Sure, we reap what we sew. If you want to really analyze this you have to go back to when we installed the Shah of Iran and, once we realized our mistake, installed Saddam as a "hedge" against Iran. Or maybe just go back to our training of bin laden as a Freedom Fighter against the USSR. We could also go back to how we enslaved Africans or stole land from Native Americans. Where do we draw the line?

I'll draw the line right here: bin Laden killed thousands of innocents (Christians AND Muslims) and then praised God about it. He was a sick and evil person. I feel more pity for the diseased cockroach I step on, because the cockroach had no malice in it's intent.

Osama did.

[crickets]

57. Too soon.

For many, it's just too soon to listen to you. Don't give up.

[Hissyspit]

59. Most posters not actually addressing the point of the OP.

[crickets]

60. I know.

It wasn't what they wanted to hear.

[truth2power]

63. Give it time to shake out, Hissy...

Some interesting things going on.

[Exilednight]

82. They'll figure it out eventually. Some of these comments remind me of when Bush announced he

was going to invade Iraq. People let their emotions get the better of them and fail to think logically.

[rucky]

155. +1

[krabigirl]

58. Was it really worth 2 trillion dollars and the loss of most of our freedoms to do this?

He was a despicable bastard and had it coming to him, but in the end, he got what he wanted. The USA was fundamentally changed in the years after 911, and it won't be coming back.

[4lbs]

61. It wouldn't have taken that long and that much money if Bushie had the balls to make a decision back

in October/November 2001 when they had him surrounded and wounded in the mountains of Tora Bora.

The US Special Forces reported they had him pinned down and requested authorization to "take him out". Such authorization could only come from the POTUS back then.

Bush took too long, and 3 hours later, Bin Laden escaped to Pakistan.

In Sunday's special forces operation in Pakistan, President Obama told them to capture or kill him, no uncertain terms. He pre-authorized them to do whatever it took to end it there.

[Bragi]

75. Balls? WTF?

You think it takes "balls" for someone sitting in the White House to order a killing? This is all about macho brave guys?

What nonsense. Anyone siting safely in a chair in the oval office can order up a killing without a lot of bravery being required.

Bush wasn't a coward,and Obama isn't brave. That isn't what is important here.

What's important is to udenrstand that this killing is just another day in the long-runnng horror show called US foreign policy in the era of fabricated global crises.

[Carolina]

208. your posts are excellent and spot on!

US foreign policy created the Shah, Pinochet, Saddam and OBL... to name a few. Killing OBL solves and resolves zip. 9/11 was blowback, and there will be more such blowback arising from the injustice of the Iraq War.

Current presidents are all cowards. We need George Washingtons, Ulysses Grants, Dwight Eisenhowers, John Kennedys and others who have fought in war to serve as POTUS rather than the snivelling idiots and chickenhawks in leadership positions who think nothing of sending our kids to kill other kids!

Justice would have been putting GHWB and GWB in the ring with Saddam and OBL respectively and letting them fight to the death!

[marions ghost]

151. The US was fundamentally changed after 9-11

right, and no death of the pathetic instigator of it all will heal the crimes that have gone on in THIS country since 9-11. Crimes in the name of "security" and "freedom." Crimes carried out by OUR people.

Kicking OBL in the virtual streets is OK if it makes you feel good, do it. Just don't be under the delusion that it buys you any kind of real peace, happiness or security.

It's a hollow victory at best.

[smirkymonkey]

196. Mission Accomplished.

[gkhouston]

243. Ah hell, the war was never really about bin Laden. He was convenient. If not 911,

then Bush & Cheney would have found some other pretext to gin up a war and crap on the Constitution.

[iverglas]

64. thank you

I said basically the same thing on LBN a little while ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4835168&mesg_id=4835208

[quaker bill]

68. It resolves one thing

No President was ever going to bring our troops back from the middle east if this man was still alive and free. Anything less than this would have been seen as failure the moment of the next terrorist attack on the US anywhere. The political consequences of such failure would have been too great to risk, so no President would have risked it. Now that he is dead, we can tenably declare victory and bring the troops home.

Terrorism will still exist, but it will be someone else doing it. This is what matters, politically speaking.

I am no fan of any of this, but once we went in, we were never leaving without this guy in custody or dead.

[crickets]

79. That is a very good point.

It's a sad data point, but it's true. I would rather he'd been brought in for a fair trial with all sorts of intelligence sunshine, but that was never going to happen.

So. It's a question of how we move on.

[ProfessorGAC]

72. Pseudo-intellectual Nonsense

GAC

[Cherchez la Femme]

260. So saith the Professor

the arbiter of all things pseudo-intellectual! :rofl:

[TheManInTheMac]

73. Sorry for your loss.

[franzia99]

74. Someone's death doesn't make me happy, but we're safer with him gone.

[rfranklin]

76. There will be another Osama bin Laden...

The world is no safer than it was before his death.

[BulletproofLandshark]

77. Normally I'm a big fan of your commentary, but not this time.

I feel absolutely no guilt over celebrating the death of a mass-murdering thug. He'll never take an American life (or anyone else's) again.

[HolyCity2012]

78. Kick & Recommend

[scheming daemons]

81. aaaand,,,, David Swanson jumps the shark

pffft.

[SpartanDem]

85. That happened a long time ago

[dionysus]

115. jumped it? he flew over it with a friggin jet pack....

[mountainlion55]

83. Can you say MIC

The MIC will have a blank check after this one. Meantime the poor and unemployed are fucked! Whats to celebrate?:wtf:

[SidDithers]

84. Unrec for nonsense...nt

Sid

[Joe the Revelator]

86. So you'd like me to believe, that in a plane full of over a 100 DC natives, not one person cheered

when it was announced OBL was dead? I find that hard to believe. In fact, I find it hard to believe you were on a plane at all.

[blueamy66]

95. Agreed.

I don't believe that statement one bit.

[davidthegnome]

87. Mixed feelings

I'm glad that OBL is finally dead, I think the world just became a very tiny bit safer. A small blessing perhaps, but a blessing for humanity nonetheless.

Still, I'm not cheering or celebrating, because I know that we once supported OBL and enabled him to eventually become what he did. There are still too many unanswered questions for me, regarding what really happened on 9/11, the investigation, the war. This will not end the war in Afghanistan, we aren't suddenly going to say "We got him! Time to go!" but it is wishful thinking.

I'm worried about what the response from various lone wolf sorts and terrorist organizations will be. I'm concerned about the fact that many extremists will now make a martyr of a monstrous man and commit terrible crimes in his name.

Nonetheless, I am grateful to the men and women who worked to accomplish this. There are people who, every day, unseen and unappreciated (and generally unknown), work their hardest to make the world just a little bit safer. Well done, thank you for your service.

[StarburstClock]

88. Correct, it's "grave-dancing" if it's someone who's liked, a parade if hated.

The very same people cheering the death of someone today will be chastising the hell out of people cheering the death of someone else the very next day.

[smirkymonkey]

200. Wow, only 344 posts and you have this place figured out VERY

well. Stick around, it's quite enlightening. :hi:

[Freddie Stubbs]

89. Paragraph #2: bin Laden was not a "foreign leader"

He was no more a leader than Charles Manson.

[davidthegnome]

92. Agreed, at least in part

He was, however, one of the leaders in the fight against the Soviets. What he later became (or perhaps had been all along, but had hidden) was someone terrible, ruthless - and I'd even say evil. I wonder what his real motives were, if perhaps he was someone's puppet or if he believed he was a Patriot and freedom fighter for his people. I don't think I'll ever know for certain.

[Cherchez la Femme]

261. OBL didn't lead Al Quada? Manson didn't lead his "Family"?

Good to know. Educate us some more!

[Zorra]

90. Resolved: bin Laden will not be killing any more innocent people.

I do understand where you are coming from.

I look at it this way.

Sometimes you have to take out the mass murdering gunman in the tower before he shoots any more innocent people.

[MineralMan]

96. Unrec. Started writing right away, did you?

Feh! Just another dump and fly post. I will add you to my Ignore list, which had just two names on it until now.

[treestar]

98. There are times when there is no other way

such as a world leader of terrorists who was not willing to be taken alive.

We were supposed to live him alone?

[Cherchez la Femme]

263. Ssssh

People are complaining he was referred to as a "foreign leader", now you're saying "world leader"?!

Shame on you -- better catch up with the talking points!

[blondeatlast]

99. The Great God David Swanson Speaketh--and Runneth.

And this OP is full of runneth.

[lonestarnot]

101. Whateva!

:toast:

[slackmaster]

103. Bullshit

Those who are killed can never kill again.

[Zorra]

104. I would rec your post as a good different POV, even though I disagree.

But the rec function is turned off.

I understand your POV, and totally respect you for posting something that you knew would be immensely unpopular with the overwhelming majority of people here, and for which you knew that you would be hammered with nasty, vicious personal attacks and insults for.
:thumbsup:

[bread_and_roses]

105. Amen (n/t)

[NNN0LHI]

106. I stopped reading at assassination

This was no assassination.

Better look up the definition of assassination once.

Don

[coalition_unwilling]

231. Um, are you so sure about that? You might want to read this

article from Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-kill-idUSTRE7413H220110502

Well, I guess we can parse what 'assassination' means (or 'execution' for that matter).

Personally, I prefer my arch villains to get trials before they are dispatched. But I know that's just quaint and obsolete these days.

[Cherchez la Femme]

267. Definition of Assassination:

"to murder (a usually prominent person) by a sudden and/or secret attack, often for political reasons."

Next time, perhaps you may want to try looking in a dictionary before you post, eh?

[NNN0LHI]

272. You think President Obama ordered bin Laden murdered?

[Cherchez la Femme]

273. Do I think President Obama said 'go murder OBL'?

No. Not in those words.

Do I think there was any effort to stress trying to get him alive to bring him to trial? No.
C'mon, this is the same thing as Bush's 'smoke 'em outta their holes', the 'Wanted: Dead or Alive' (preferably dead) mentality.

And surely you are aware the President declared even U.S. citizens can be 'shot on sight', without benefit of trial
even if they're just suspects?

Is it Human Rights or 'American' Rights? Preceding sentences negates that question...
Are we a nation of laws or aren't we?
Or are we a nation of laws only when it's convenient
and convenient only to the right people?


Am I glad OBL is dead? Sure.
But I would have loved to see him convicted in a fair court of law.
Our justice system can handle it -- it handles Death Penalty cases all the time.

[1awake]

107. Right or wrong,

...I am happy that laden is dead. Not happy jumping up and down or partying.. but any other word would feel untrue. He, in my opinion deserved death, and due to his actions, made that the only possibility. Some things will change now while others will remain the same. I hope that people's perceptions will allow for or demand.. "mission accomplished" and thus begin the process of bringing our troops home. I believe the odds of any president ending this so called war on terror without Laden being captured or killed was very unlikely.

The first time I read through your post I admit it annoyed me greatly. The second time I find that I agree with the vast majority of it. The problem is none of it matters right now, in the moment. We as a country.. our government is responsible for many of the events that led to where we are today through action or inaction. That is just fact. The people wanted justice, and in their eyes they just received it. And it was justice, but only a small piece compared to what I believe your talking about. I hope this creates an out both for the president, and for the American people. What needs to happen from here.. well, I don't think anyone on this site needs me to be lecturing on whats obvious. Thanks for your thoughts.

[snappyturtle]

108. Agreed. nt

[DevonRex]

109. Nonsensical drivel. Unrec.

[dionysus]

116. you know, i never thought I'd see that day where getting OBL would be portrayed as an unjustified

murder, but DU continues to amaze....

[Common Sense Party]

139. I fully expected it on DU.

[Cherchez la Femme]

268. Which is why you come here. And why you donate?

:eyes:

[Warren DeMontague]

165. The same folks who would gladly wage all-out war on hooters or sexy ads on IFC

If only OBL had been a part of the Illuminati Moon-Bombing Patriarchal Corporatist Space Conspiracy, this would be o.k.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

197. Porn producers draw more ire here than OBL (n/m)

[neoralme]

110. Vengeance is mine, sayest the Internet. Wonder how big a

rebirth in terrorism this will spurn, and who will be the next to die. Good that he is dead. If that is the case.

[tallahasseedem]

111. It may not have resolved everything...

but I am having a fucking great time grave-dancing. He got what he deserved.

Your sympathy for him is noted.

[dionysus]

112. ROFL

:rofl:

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chervilant]

114. Really, DUers?

Far too many of us are in react mode, driven by inchoate fears and resentments. Far too many of us are willing to pollute our spirits with negativity, eagerly engaging in name-calling and other forms of vilification. Far too many of us are willing to glorify violence or resort to violence, just for entertainment or personal gratification.

We seldom acknowledge the import of overpopulation, but Calhoun's research with rats has proven that when a critical level of overpopulation occurs, the outcome isn't pretty. With rats, abnormal sexual behavior, hyper-aggression, eating their young, and increased mortality are a few of the problems that occur. With humans,... well, isn't it past time we acknowledge that our species has passed a critical tipping point?

Watching the hoi polloi pick sides, and lob verbal grenades at each other, as though our corporatist-driven political and/or religious ideologies are the most important framework within which we coexist on this planet, remains both disappointing and unsettling...

Consider that the majority of people who have "graduated' from our system of public education in the last twenty years have been suckered into believing that at least three quarters of us have average or below average intellects (a corporatist-driven deceit). Consider that we've been trained AWAY from critical thinking skills and toward rote memorization, so that we can perform like trained monkeys on ridiculously expensive and pedantic standardized tests. Consider that almost half of our adult population is functionally illiterate (perhaps we can READ the words on this page, but many of us would be hard pressed to explain the gist of what we've read). Consider that our nation ranks in the fourth quartile with regards to our high school students' ability to demonstrate competitive academic skills in math and science.

And, yet, the vast majority of us are completely focused ('oh, look, it's a sparkly!') on red state/blue state, democrat/republican, conservative/liberal, either/or dichotomies that distract us from the destructive and stultifying radical income inequity within this nation--AND the concentration of wealth GLOBALLY in the hands of less than four hundred people...

The revolution, WHEN not IF it comes, promises to refocus our species. We're so deep in the abyss of self-immolation, our efforts will of necessity be solely about sheer survival. Selfishly, I'm glad I'm in the twilight of my years...

[neoralme]

117. A simply excellent post in quite probably the wrong place. Yeah,

it's getting really Animal Farmy. The Corporatists are in the process of taking us limited achievers out because they think they have no other choice. I'm in the fourth quarter myself, and am glad to be there. I think it's sad that that quarter will come early for so many due primarily to population and greed. Well, anyway, good post. I sure would like to see you post it in another thread where what you said could be discussed further.

[chervilant]

122. Of late

my activism is refocused on helping individuals recognize the power of their intellects AND the importance of compassion and cooperation. I like what Firesign Theater said:

"We're ALL bozos on this bus!"

We cannot exit this planet at the next galaxy, notwithstanding death, our inexplicable transition. If we cannot learn to live together, work together, succeed together, we will meet our collective demise still pondering where we went wrong.

[davidthegnome]

123. Uhm, what?

Did you really just post that in a thread about the death of OBL? Why? What does it have to do with the topic being discussed? Maybe you're suggesting that via population control we could uh... accomplish what, exactly? Did you have an actual point that in any way relates to the discussion at hand?

[chervilant]

126. If

you read all the vitriol directed at Mr. Swanson, you might comprehend why I felt my response is warranted. Consider what I've said from a macro perspective. BTW, my post was not about population control, but your perception speaks volumes about your comprehension skills.

[davidthegnome]

143. Really?

"We seldom acknowledge the import of overpopulation, but Calhoun's research with rats has proven that when a critical level of overpopulation occurs, the outcome isn't pretty. With rats, abnormal sexual behavior, hyper-aggression, eating their young, and increased mortality are a few of the problems that occur. With humans,... well, isn't it past time we acknowledge that our species has passed a critical tipping point?"

That wasn't intended to suggest (even indirectly) that population control is necessary or a good idea? You are using a severely flawed analysis if you had a different point.

Calhoun's research with rats proves what, exactly, in regards to human beings? Nothing. Unless we've started eating our young? I see nothing wrong with abnormal sexual behavior (how did Calhoun define abnormal, by the way?), though hyper-aggression is indeed an issue among our species. What sort of critical tipping point are you referring to if not overpopulation? What would you suggest as a viable solution to the problem?

I have no issue with the rest of your post (aside from being off-topic, which of course, I'm making worse by replying...) but when I see an attempt to suggest that our problem is overpopulation or that it has reached a critical tipping point, it is difficult to see how you are suggesting anything other than that we reduce our population. This could be achieved through various means - and has everything to do with population control.

My reading comprehension skills are just fine. If I draw logical conclusions from your words (uh, sorry?), perhaps you could have been more specific.

(edited for typos)

[chervilant]

153. If you're truly interested:

My assertion about overpopulation is both an observation about one of the major components of our species' current 'dis-ease' and a nod to the fact that we've passed a CRITICAL point in our sociocultural evolution--one that we rarely acknowledge or discuss.

With regards to specifics:

1) abnormal sexual behavior: rape, child sexual assault, and necrophilia are but a few examples of our 'abnormal' sexual behaviors. Our inordinate preoccupation with our sexuality suggests that, as a species, we're still in our adolescence.

2) eating our young: the Andrea Yates case (which happened in my neighborhood) was sensational for reasons other than her modus operandi. Reports of parents deliberately or thoughtlessly murdering their children have increased steadily since Yates' horrific event. While we've never been TRULY a child-centric species, our pathological propensity for deliberately killing our young is well documented.

3) increased mortality: need I even go here? Chernobyl and Fukushima are giant spikes on this measure, but we've managed to fowl every corner of our nest, a species-wide behavior that continues unabated.

We now live in exponential times (view this for a glimpse of what this means--bearing in mind that much of the data therein is already obsolete). This fact is my primary motivation for highlighting our species' rampant hedonism writ large in our burgeoning numbers. We are terribly out of balance, and our planet is imminently likely to roll over and scrape us off her backside.

(Note that I am not 'doom and glooming' here. I find this stage in our species' evolution quite fascinating, and I remain convinced that we can do what is necessary to step off our path of self-immolation. However, if we do not, so be it.)

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

192. I am also in the twilight years. Perhaps you understand

when we are are no longer physical what our true being is, it's impossible to put into words and none of this matters.

[chervilant]

226. Yes,

and I anticipate I'll find that experience just as fascinating as what we're going through now.

[Dappleganger]

118. Oh lord.

:eyes:

[MilesColtrane]

119. "killing a foreign leader"

The only thing Bin Laden led was a group of fanatical murderers.

Would you call Charles Manson a "domestic leader"?

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

124. k&r

[Common Sense Party]

127. Drive-by post.

It's interesting you don't stick around to engage in discussion of your screed.

I'm glad the prick is dead.

You're not.

I guess that sums it up.

[themadstork]

174. No kidding.

Talk about leaving a giant turd on the forum and them making others pick up your crap! That he didn't remain to debate his position shows that it was only ever about boosting his own ego.

[Cherchez la Femme]

269. Please quote

where he said he was sorry OBL was dead?
Exact quote please. Prove your contention.

I'm not sorry he's dead. I do disapprove of the extrajudicial killing -- the whole thing could have been handled much better, right down to this 'burial at sea'.

However, I will say at least it was handled -- not ignored, like out last pResident did.

[Robb]

128. Supercilious horseshit.

But, said the cook, at least there's plenty of it and it's warm.

[Common Sense Party]

136. That's a good way to put it.

Not at all dingbatty.

[Iggo]

129. It makes people feel better.

Wonderful world, eh?

[snooper2]

130. Almost 7 Billion people on this planet...Some of them are rabid dogs

and need to be put down...


For starters..
If I had my way I would take every adult on the planet who ever raped a baby or toddler and put them down. No need for that type of trash in society...no reason to waste effort trying to "rehabilitate" a sick fuck like that.

[olegramps]

131. Sanctimonious Bull. He was nothing more than a murder who rejoiced in the killing Americans.

[AngryAmish]

133. Scipio Africanus looks at your post and decides you are wrong

[Zoeisright]

135. Yep. Exactly. I'd add

Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves - Confucius

[Ikonoklast]

141. Confucius was wrong. Didn't even need one. They just chucked his corpse in the drink.

And the person who was on a journey of revenge was Osama.

He got exactly what he deserved; he had sown on the wind, and reaped the whirlwind.

[marions ghost]

154. We have reaped the whirlwind as well

n/t

[Taverner]

138. True, however I'm not shedding a tear

Yes, killing Bin Laden will solve nothing. Al Queda, if it even still exists, is toothless and crippled. From the sound of it, OBL wasn't exactly directing anything at his compound. As the talking heads said, it was pretty much just him and his bodyguards at that compound yesterday morning.

And it is ghoulish at best for folks to be cheering in the streets outside the White House. Not too different than the Palestinians dancing in the streets when 9/11 happened. We definitely can't take the stance that we're better than them now.

HOWEVER, even though I am against the Death Penalty, there was no such hope of capturing OBL alive. Anyone who read his writings knew he wasn't going out like that. Why? When you can die as a martyr and have all those virgins?

I'm glad he's dead, but its time to stop the celebration of more death.

For those who think they feel safer, think again. Like the Hydra, you cut off one head and another three pop out.

As long as we are addicted to oil, expect to face Bin Ladens. The Saudi Kingdom was in all respects in the stone age when they discovered oil. They went from stone age to computer age in 50 short years. Just like when a teenager becomes a rock star and has all that money, drugs and sex around - the Saudis were no different, believing they could start about some worldwide caliphate of regression.

If we are truly interested in National Security, we have to get off oil. Not just 'foreign oil' but oil, period. We need a renewable resource to become the standard. Then and only then can we afford to ignore the caliphate-minded Saudis, and let them go back to the rubble from whence they came.

[IsItJustMe]

142. Amen and Amen. A voice of sanity and reason from the wilderness.

I could not have said it better.

[midnight]

146. I was thinking how many people's lives would have been saved if we were honest about

why intelligence briefings were ignored... All this killing over a Bush Family Friend.... What a tragedy...

[bluestateboomer]

148. +1 attempted K&R

[davidswanson]

149. thanks

much appreciated, everybody

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hosnon]

152. Rewatch the footage from that day and get back to me.

Fuck him.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

171. We Americans are such adolescents

We're like the teenager who is obsessing over a zit and doesn't want to hear about the neighbor who has inoperable cancer.

Yes, 9/11 was a hellish experience for those who lived through it and those who died there, but so is having your family blown to bits at a wedding. So is being an innocent person held without charges and incommunicado for ten years. So is having your society trashed so that people who once lived in one of the most modern infrastructures in the Middle East are holed up in the rubble.

Oh yeah, and as bad as 9/11 was, several European cities on both sides of World War II suffered the equivalent of several 9/11s in a single night.

We need to get over ourselves.

[smirkymonkey]

203. +1000

Best Post yet.

[Carolina]

210. K&R!

well put and oh, so true!

[chill_wind]

159. K & R.

[NOLALady]

160. Thanks.

I thought that I was the only person feeling uncomfortable about the dancing in the streets.

And so it goes. The revenge cycle must end, if we are ever to live in peace.

[TooRaLoo]

161. You could have just typed "wah" and saved us all this reading. nt

[dionysus]

265. !!!!

:spray:

[Cherchez la Femme]

270. Yep. All this reading is hard werk.

Between the OP and your post, it's interesting to note which is more childish. :hi:

[cliffordu]

163. Absolutely nothing here to see.

More claptrap from the bloviator in chief

[MicaelS]

164. It resolves one thing Bin Laden is DEAD! n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

168. The majority of the responses on this thread remind me of Walt Starr's response to 9/11

which was to advocate nuking every Islamic country. Really.

I don't see any self-reflection, any sorrow for the hundreds of thousands of innocents killed and the unknown numbers imprisoned and tortured in our bogus "War on Terror," any remorse for two unnecessary invasions of countries that had never attacked us, in other words, remorse for OUR war crimes.

The film footage of the mostly young crowds celebrating in the streets is sickening. It's as sickening as the alleged footage of Palestinians celebrating 9/11--only that footage was faked and this was REAL.

Unlike V-J Day, this is not the end of hostilities. The troops will not be marching home en masse. The commentators on NPR were noting that the focus of the "War on Terror" will now move to Yemen.

From the point of view of a government, whether D or R, that's the beauty of a war that's fought against a concept or a tactic instead of against a country. You can never declare absolute victory, so the military-industrial machine is on a non-stop gravy train that can always be justified by "keeping us safe."

I am disappointed that so many DUers are falling for the hype, and I applaud the few who have the guts to speak out against the bloodthirsty and jingoistic hysteria.

[cottonseed]

170. I guess you've never read a Michael Vick thread on DU. You haven't begun to see bloodthirsty.

I can't stand hypocrites.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

172. Since I have no interest in sports news, I have not read a Michael Vick thread

But this one is sickening enough.

[LiberalLovinLug]

178. Well said

I too am amazed at the majority of blood thirsty posters on DU.
Also all the straw man arguments like "Oh...you think we should have bought him an ice cream cone?"

No. But I would hope that the special forces took extra attention to trying to take OBL alive. To stand trial, and face the families of those killed on 9/11. But I suspect that there were special orders to eliminate him and any embarrassing secrets he may have had in his card deck about his relationship with the CIA, (or a smaller group group of neo-con insiders) and when it actually stopped.

Violence does beget violence. Thats why the pointless, criminal Iraq invasion in particular will reap blowback for decades to come.

I am a wanna-be pacifist. But I concede that sometimes force is needed. Backed by evidence and police work. This operation was long overdue, but celebrating a death is not what I am doing. Perhaps if he was captured soon after in Tora Bora, I would feel more enthusiastic, but after years upon years of slaughter in Afghanistan and Iraq, countries where he either never was or left apparently years ago, and all the Osama-like recruits the US army created many times over for al Qaida in the process, is NOTHING to dance about.

Celbrating the death of a man who had a leading part in deaths of thousands of innocents, by a people who's government has been and is still engaging in and/or covering up illegal, criminal war crimes where HUNDREDS of thousands, if not millions of innocents have been killed, for no other reasons it seems but to secure oil reserves, weapons and construction contracts for American mulinationals at the great expense in soldiers lives and national debt..........is simply appalling.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

185. Yes, thank you

It's not as if America was the totally innocent victim that never hurt a flea. Yes, the people who actually died on 9/11 were innocent, but our government has earned many of the enemies it has.

[StarburstClock]

184. It was sick to watch all the spoiled GWU kids and their brainwashed chanting

outside the WH. The TV "news" went right to that press-op like the posed toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue. I was thinking that most of those kids were 10 years old or less on 9/11 and don't have a clue what they were even chanting about.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

173. Well said -

I've never understood how you "kill" an idealogy with bullets.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

175. Or worse yet, a TACTIC

Terrorism is a TACTIC that has been used by fanatics of all stripes.

That's the beauty of the War on Terror. You can never win it. Such a deal for the military-industrial complex! Such a control mechanism for the gullible populace! Tighten the choke chain and tell people that it's "because of the War on Terror," and most of them will say, "Oh, it's all right then."

[Hell Hath No Fury]

176. I always hated that "War on Terror" thing -

Terror is an emotion and, as you said, terrorism is a tactic. Yes, such a "war" is never ending and can be adapted to suit all sorts of purposes. :(

Imagine if we had spent all those billions providing Muslim children in Pakistan and Yemen and around the globe with a quality education and oppportunities. That is how you beat an idealogy.

But Bin Laden is dead, so rah rah rah.

[Kolesar]

180. By David Swanson's definition, Osama Bin Laden was "a foreign leader"

"killing foreign leaders whom we've previously supported has been an ongoing disaster. "

You should have stayed in bed if this was the best you could write today.

[blondeatlast]

183. It was posted within a half hour of the announcement last night--I was on the boards

at the time.

The language is remarkable for such a spontaneous brainstorming, don't you think?

[msanthrope]

249. Amazing timing, no?

Some people think the Patriot Act was just sitting on a shelf somewhere.....I think there was a whole binder....

They come at us from the right, and the faux left.

[BigD_95]

186. Hey, hey, hey

Goodbye!

[Mosby]

187. we prevented him from engaging in any more terrorism

For ever and ever - that's a bad thing to you?

[proud2BlibKansan]

222. So now his followers can work to avenge his killing

When does it stop? It didn't stop when we killed Sadaam.

Did you see Rachel Maddow tonight? She pointed out that only ONE post 9/11 incident of terrorism has been linked to Osama bin Laden. There have been so many others - and he wasn't involved.

[pitohui]

188. maybe you're not doing it right if you think "killing resolves nothing"

osama bin laden targeted the airline industry and you don't know who among that pilot's personal friends may have died on 9/11 -- if you don't think it's bigger than the superbowl to him, maybe you don't know the whole story

killing resolves the injustice of this mass murderer walking around enjoying his million dollar home, his million dollar fortune, his four wives, and his children all around him...it resolves that just fucking fine

it's bad enough to see people you care about brutally killed for nothing, it's worse to know that the killer is highly placed and beloved by large numbers of crazy people who just want to copy him and that he's living a great life while the victims are forever dead

justice is not "nothing" and terrorists need to pay for their crimes

bin laden died a wealthy man who took shield behind a woman's body, he died a coward, i say that resolves SOMETHING, don't you? maybe a few of his stupid-ass followers will wake up and realize that they were tools and fools...

[The Green Manalishi]

191. Tell that to a Carthagenian, as regards Rome.

If you don't want to dance on the grave, fine. More room for me.

I'm just sad we didn't feed his body to some pigs and youtube the video of it.

[Cid_B]

211. Yes I thought of Starship Troopers as well...

nt

[Carolina]

212. Wow... would that satisfy your blood lust?

Would you really feel good watching something like that?! Take a stroll through an enlightened history book (or Chalmers Johnson's BLOWBACK) and remember we (the US/CIA) created OBL to bring down a mighty power (the USSR) by any means necessary.

When US troops defiled Mecca in the 1st (Bush I) Gulf War, OBL vowed to use the skills learned by our tutelage against us. See, no bad deed goes unavenged and surely one day we will reap what we have sown in Iraq from an Iraqi bin Laden protege.

Cheer all you want. Dance all you want. Relish in blood lust all you want. Then take a good, hard, long look in the mirror and ask yourself: what did that really accomplish?!

[The Green Manalishi]

227. US troops defiled Mecca"

Give me a break.
Anyone who thinks that merely having US troops in Saudi Arabia is equivalent to taking a whiz on the Kaaba is so whack they aren't worth taking into consideration.

Tired of tiptoeing around the sensibilities of people with invisible sky friends regardless of the variant if Abrahamism they are trying to inflict on the world; good fucking riddance and piss on the corpse.
Good terrorist = dead terrorist.

[MilesColtrane]

239. Fahd invited US troops into SA.

The US has done plenty of heinous things that would explain acts of violent "blowback", but stationing troops for defensive purposes in an ally's country at their request isn't one of them.

Allowing the most extreme murderous religious nuts to dictate our relations with allied countries is crazy.

If Bin Laden had any balls at all he would have gone full bore against King Fahd (the real guy who 'defiled' Mecca by asking US troops to build a base there)

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

198. Why didn't you address bin Laden with this?

Oh, that's right, it doesn't fit your wacky agenda.

[EFerrari]

228. Isn't it wackier to expect a terrorist to behave better

than the US government?

[stevenleser]

235. Absolutely. That is why they sometimes need to be killed. n/t

[EFerrari]

238. That's sort of a harsh rule, especially if you begin to assess

the relative damage done by each, don't you think?

[stevenleser]

287. Nope. You are making generalizations and I am accounting for specific instances.

First, you realize that the fact that only 3-4 people died out of the 22 or so in the compound was because President Obama made the decision to send the SEAL team in rather than bomb the location to smithereens.

Second, the decision was made to make this as quick and easy an operation as possible. If Bin Laden didnt surrender immediately, he was to be shot. He didnt put his hands up so they shot him.

Third, the whole relative badness doesnt work. For instance, at the turn of the century, police in several large cities were corrupt, much more so than is asserted today. Does that mean that if they are trying to apprehend a murderer that they cannot use deadly force in some instances?

Fourth, I also take my queue to some extent from how the rest of the international community regards our actions. The only folks objecting to what we did right now are Hamas. That really helps my comfort level.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

248. It's also wacky to believe soldiers should have died if they couldn't take him alive

Oh....and he's not a world leader.....he's a terrorist now?

Okay, glad we cleared that up. Stick to that and you'll get it eventually.

[Lucian]

213. OBL's death solved nothing.

There's still American hatred out there.

+1

[Cleita]

215. Finally, a sensible post among all the grave dancing.

I don't blame President Obama at all. He did what he thought he had to do, but I certainly blame a lot on the criminals who preceded him in the White House.

[scheming daemons]

232. Calling OBL a "foreign leader" is a SENSIBLE post?

Pray tell... what sovereign nation was he the leader of?


David Swanson is a clueless has-been.

[Hannah Bell]

245. he's a foreigner, & a leader. tell me, oh wise one, which sovereign nation is

the "terror" of the "war on terror" that we've turned our entire country upside down to wage?

if al-qaeda are "terrorists" & obl is their leader, then he's a foreign leader.

[RoccoR5955]

216. Thanks. I've been trying to tell this to people all day! n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

218. K & R!!

[ScreamingMeemie]

220. Because the Packers won the Super Bowl this year, the Super Bowl is

better...in my house at least.

[cliffordu]

223. We killed the shit out of Ben Laden. That solves that.

But little else.

[aikoaiko]

225. I wouldn't say nothing. My beef with Bin Laden is resolved.

[SmileyBoy]

230. OK Neville, we'll make sure to remember that.

[Cherchez la Femme]

271. Awww, yet another Reich Wing meme posted proudly on DU

You must be so proud! :patriot:

[stevenleser]

234. Many eloquent points. But this is an exception. You always have to have room for those.

There is no philosophy, including anti-war and anti-violence, that is exception free.

If you think your philosophy is above exceptions, that is a strong indication you have crossed over into fanaticism.

[Zanzoobar]

237. Killing resolves a lot of stuff

Your proposition is much too trite and hackneyed to be considered serious.

I suggest you get a grip.

[LadyHawkAZ]

240. Jesus H. Christ in an Army chopper!

How many of these "How dare you celebrate this killing!!!1!" threads are there going to be?

We killed a mass murderer, finally and twenty years too late, after hundreds of thousands had died either at his hands or because of his actions. You're damn right I'm celebrating. I refuse to be sorry if that offends anyone. Does it bring back any of the dead? No. Neither would a trial by jury. But it does take one mass killer off the planet, and deprives terrorists of a heroic figure that could kill with impunity and evade all attempts at capture. That's worth something, even if it doesn't solve all the world's problems in one go.

I've been seeing thread after thread after thread about this all day long, and I have finally had enough. If you want to mourn the death of a killer, great. Or reflect on the briefness and fragility of human life, terrific. Or hold a solemn vigil for those gone, that's just fine. But will you all please PLEASE stop acting like those of us who don't choose to go that route are lesser than thou? You might see a dead human being: we might see someone who gave up all claims to that title years ago. Please stop telling us how to feel about it. Kthxbye.

I'm going to depart and come back another day, when my blood has hopefully cooled and some of the holier-than-thou has worn off the site. Hopefully.

(davidswanson, this is not necessarily directed at you. Yours just happens to be the thread that broke the camels back.)

[Hissyspit]

241. As you can see by the post date. This was posted WELL before

most other posts here today.

[rasputin1952]

246. Going out on a limb here, but I'd be scared shitless if an entire planeload

of passengers suddenly went wild w/glee/anger or anything else. If I were the Captain of said plane, I would have calmly announced the news over the PA and left it at that.

As far as the death of bin-Laden, I can find no empathy for a man whole seems to have found as his only source of enjoyment the death of others at his direction, (kind of sounds like bush come to think of it). bin-Laden was a coward that brought much misery upon the world after financing and plotting several devastating attacks in the name of a religion who's name equates to "Peace"...pretty difficult for me to get past that. I do not support cold blooded murder in any of it's various forms, but bin-Laden didn't get murdered, he was as legitimate a target as would be any combatant in the situation that transpired.

President Obama took full responsibility for the action taken, only he could approve the mission that essentially would be the death of bring the death of-bin-Laden, for that, I give him great credit. He could be walking around pounding his chest and looking like a fool...he isn't, he's showing concern for the decision he made, that earns my respect for the man. Few people would act the way PO is under the circumstances.

You made the statement that death brings more death, this is true, and the death of bin-Laden was brought about by his actions, no one else's. If he would have taken a different tack in spreading his message, he would not be dead, but just marginalized from his religion. There may well be reprisal acts, time will tell, but I hope none occur.

I did not/will not "celebrate" his death, but I'm not going to bemoan it either. The man was a coward who got others to make sacrifices he refused to make himself, he brought about much misery...one thing I am not miserable about is his demise.

[Name removed]

247. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TwilightGardener]

250. I'm glad I was born without the knee-jerk impulse to constantly override

my genuine, unbidden emotions and feelings with analysis, rationalization and mental gymnastics in order to adhere to my pre-programmed ideal of how one responds to certain events. So I give you this in response: Bin Laden's dead? YAYYY!

[snot]

251. "Dhammapada," Ch. 1, the Twin Verses 5, as quoted by Maha Ghosananda:

Hatred never ceases by hatred;
But by love alone is healed.
This is an ancient and eternal law.

[Baby Bear]

252. It is easier to exhibit hubris

when you have both feet safely planted on the ground. You don't do it in an airplane, or in church.

[BrklynLiberal]

253. Awesomely said!!!!

[robcon]

254. The OP is 'dead' wrong: Killing Resolves Some Things.

OBL is dead. That issue is resolved.

When Hitler was killed, he was dead. That issue was resolved.

[anneboleyn]

266. Yes, As I posted upthread, when that cowardly fucker Himmler was dead, he was dead

and the rest of the Nazis went with him and his evil leader. I just wish we had the satisfaction of the Allies doing in Goebbels, Himmler, and Hitler, but we can't have it all I guess.

[WatsonT]

256. A dead person will never bother anyone again, so that's resolved

Imagine if Hitler had gotten lose at the end of the war and spent the next 20 years hiding and inciting trouble. He could have, he certainly had a dedicated fan base.

He wouldn't have been able to take over the world but he certainly could have made the rebuilding much more difficult and cost many people their lives.

But seeing him dead broke the spirit of many ardent supporters and gave heart to many opponents and resistance basically collapsed.

His death made a difference, as did Osamas.

[dionysus]

264. wrong once again. it resolved this one pretty nicely.

[LostInAnomie]

282. It resolved the lack of Bin Ladens at the bottom of the ocean quite nicely.