The Republicans essentially suckered Obama into tanking the economy

[Cali_Democrat]

Looking at details of the plan, it becomes more and more disturbing, especially at a time when the economy is struggling mightily. At first I thought the plan wasn't that bad, but it appears to be a shit sandwich with a glass of urine on the side.

My theory is that Republicans know very well that spending cuts (austerity) leads to reduced economic growth. If you saw Rachel Maddow's segment yesterday, you would know what happened in 1937 and how FDR caved to Republican demands for deficit reduction. This reduced economic growth significantly because spending cuts by the Federal Government reduces aggregate demand. It came at a bad time too because the economy was emerging from the Great Depression.

Fast forward to today and it's no surprise that the stock market is starting to collapse. Not only have companies been issuing future profit warnings, but investors are also taking spending cuts into consideration and their negative impact on economic growth so they are selling off equities. It has been proven time and time again that spending cuts reduce economic growth. The evidence is clear cut.

The Republicans essentially got Obama to agree to spending cuts and they know damn well that it will hurt the economy and Obama's reelection chances. This is the same thing they did with the Bush tax cuts. Get Obama to extend them and then blame him for the resulting deficit.

Their goal is to hang all this shit around Obama's neck even though it's Republican policies that are causing this mess.

It's a shame that Obama took the bait x(

[vi5]

1. That about sums it up.

Honestly I think I'm well past thinking he's complicit in this whole scam. That, I think gives him too much credit.

He's simply nothing more than a sucker, desperate to be loved and accepted by a crowd of people who want nothing to do with him. And his every action is influenced by that desire to be accepted.

[ProSense]

2. Yeah,

because standing firm and allowing the country default would look a lot better than what everyone is freaking out about now.

Can you imagine what a default would have looked like?

The media and Republicans would blame the President, and then a week after celebrating Obama and Democrats for standing up to Republicans, those celebrating would blame Obama for creating the mess. In fact, the billions incurred for the crisis would be laid at his feet for being inflexible or for being unable to get Congress to pass a clean bill.

Kerry went on to say that the Republican extremists in the House have done great damage to America's economy.

[flamingdem]

3. +1 default would not have improved investment or trust in US markets nt

[villager]

4. imagine what "standing firm" would look like!

If this White House did it even once. On our behalf.

[Renew Deal]

6. The country would not have defaulted.

The republicans wouldn't have let it happen.

[ProSense]

8. "The republicans wouldn't have let it happen."

They're only pretending to be ruthless bastards. The stuff the GOP governors are doing isn't really happening either.

[LaydeeBug]

10. The 14th Amendment would help. Oh, and you have to fight bullies, not appease them. nt

[mrcheerful]

16. Right because those 5 GOP SCOTUS judges would have sided with Obama using the

14th amendment and not ruling it as a power grab by the president thus opening the door for the GOP to start impeachment proceedings, that was the trap that many experts talked about.

[Renew Deal]

18. Doesn't matter at that point.

Ceiling would have been raised.

[AndyTiedye]

22. The Supremes Would Have Overruled Him Within the Hour, and the House Would Have Impeached Him

We would still be in default, but we would have given the Repubs a whole lot of ammunition for 2012
and there would be gavel-to-gavel coverage of the Repiggies going on about how O runs roughshod over the Constitution.

No upside to that.

Fighting bullies only works if you win. If you lose, then the bully knows he can beat you any time he wants.

[Renew Deal]

11. Yes

They had no choice on this one. They had no leverage. Obama should have insisted from the beginning that he get a clean bill. Now he's set a terrible precident.

[ProSense]

14. Um

"Obama should have insisted from the beginning that he get a clean bill."

The House voted down a clean bill.

These claims seem to be designed to give the Republicans the benefit of the doubt, that they didn't want to do what they actually set out to do.

If they didn't want to damage the economy, why did they take it to the brink, costing the government money, instilling uncertainty, and causing the markets to tumble?

[Renew Deal]

17. They would have voted for a clean bill in the end.

Especially if Obama spent months arguing that this has never been done before and he was not going to participate.

It went to the brink because Obama didn't cut them off months ago.

[ProSense]

19. How do you know that?

How do you know that they wouldn't have called his bluff?

It's funny that people claim the Republicans are masterful at getting what they want, and their primary goal is to destroy Obama, but in the end, they would have simply caved and voted for a clean bill, which they gave no indication they would support.

Why wouldn't Republicans have simply let it go to the point of the President having to use the 14th Amendment option? They score a win with the teabaggers and another political talking point: impeachment.

So, how do you know that?

[Renew Deal]

21. I know.

Because it would have been suicidal if they singlehandedly tanked the economy. Obama is taking heat because he played along.

[ProSense]

23. Hmmmm?

"Because it would have been suicidal if they singlehandedly tanked the economy."

Really? They would simply have accepted the blame for this and not project it onto the President for being inflexible?

Really? Seriously, really?

And what about those who were demanding that the President use the 14th Amendment, were they assuming
Republicans would fold and support a clean bill?

[Renew Deal]

24. They could try to spin their way out of it.

But if Obama insisted from the beginning to get a clean bill, he would have been right and history would have supported him. The Republicans had no leverage to cut anything until Obama became willing to negotiate. The 14th amendment would never have happened because things would never have gone that far, and if they did, then almost no one has standing to challenge it.

[ProSense]

25. Oh

"But if Obama insisted from the beginning to get a clean bill, he would have been right and history would have supported him."

...boy! History doesn't matter now, what matters now is the GOP/media spin.

Before the 2010 election, the President and Democrats were right about the fact that they didn't cut Medicare benefits, but that didn't matter. Only the Republican/media spin mattered.

"The Republicans had no leverage to cut anything until Obama became willing to negotiate."

It's like everyone forgot the Ryan plan and Cut, Cap and Balance. Republicans were determined to cut something, and they haven't given up.

[Vattel]

20. I suspect that you are right.

But it's hard to know for sure.

[Aerows]

36. More to the point

They *COULDN'T* let is happen, and many fell for it, like others that believe what they hear in the MSM. It was painted as a catastrophe, but there were at least 14 ways to avoid it, even if the legislation failed.

Ignorance is a friend to no one, and neither is buying into media hype. We would have defaulted about the same time as the sun would have risen in the West the next morning, meaning never.

[Aerows]

35. Damn Straight

It was theater, that's all.

[mrcheerful]

13. From my point of view I get the feeling the tea bagged republicans are deliberately

trying to force the US to bankrupt itself the same way the USSR did. Think about it a US bankruptcy would cause 3 thing to happen 1) the debt slate gets wiped clean 2) all the safety net programs, unions and everything else will be killed and 3) by doing it while a D is in the white house the US will become a 1 party controlled country. Remember when the depression hit in 1929 everyone in the country suffered except for the old money wealthy and if the US bankrupts those people will end up as the new ruling class with all of the power. I got a feeling that has been the plan since 1929 only it failed because Hoover was an R and the people turned against the R's and the wealthy.

[mrcheerful]

56. Btw, in case your freaked out some of that was just SA at work.

[paulk]

26. weak argument

there were alternatives to a default - 14th amendment comes to mind.

[ProSense]

28. Well,

"there were alternatives to a default - 14th amendment comes to mind."

...I see you read the other responses and put a lot of thought into your argument!

[paulk]

30. wait

I didn't realize I had an obligation to agree with the arguments upthread

There were quite a number of elected Democrats who felt it was a viable option. Obama, of course, took it off the table right away. He does that sort of thing a lot. You know - showing your hand, painting yourself into a corner, etc.

[ProSense]

31. Hmmm?

"There were quite a number of elected Democrats who felt it was a viable option."

Yes, if an agreement wasn't reached by the deadline. How would that have prevented a worse situation than we're watching unfold right now?

[paulk]

49. um...

well, for one thing, it would have showed some bold leadership by Obama - even if the Supreme Court had shot it down immediately, which is debatable. The masters of the court are on Wall Street, and they didn't want a default any more than Obama did.

At the least it would have prevented the current "compromise", which, I think even the staunchest defenders of Obama would agree is a horrible piece of legislation.

If the House wanted to impeach, let them go for it - it worked so well for them the last time they impeached a Dem president.

[Armstead]

48. How about actually looking ahead and standing firm last December?

...or at any point in the seven months after that?

It's not like thisv was a hurricane that came out of nowhere.

But President Obama "trusted" McConnell and Boner and took them at their word that the GOP would not let that happen.

[WiffenPoof]

65. Yep...You Hit It On The Head

Leadership and good management require that people think ahead. Knowing what is coming down the line and anticipating what will happen is critical. This administration has shown over and over again that they have little ability to get ahead of the curve.

-P

[Logical]

59. For the 1000tth time, they would have chickened out!! We are gullible!

[Renew Deal]

5. Again

The stimulus was too small AND they accepted the republicans health care ideas even though the republicans didn't vote for those ideas.

[indepat]

7. Surely BHO is to smart and shrewd to have been suckered in such manner: any 10th-grader

should have been able to figure out the almost surely results of such a swell-crafted RW bargain. :patriot:

[LaydeeBug]

12. Oh!! He's playing CHESS again. Jedi Mind trick chess, WHILE THEY'RE PLAYING TREASURY ROBBERS. nt

[abelenkpe]

9. Republicans could not lose in that default would have

brought the world economy to its knees and austerity measures will hobble the economy. Basically spending cuts now are the anti-stimulus. It will wipe out the gains made by the stimulus and continue the downward spiral of our economy. Only slower than default would have done.

But the markets are not just responding to what is happening in the US. Greece is still in danger. Austerity has not been kind to Ireland or the UK. In the US it does not have to be that way. We have our own currency unlike European nations and we are still a wealthy country. We could cut defense spending and raise taxes without stripping workers and future retirees of benefits. The fight here is who will pay not that we cannot pay. Right now republicans are making sure that the wealthy and corporations don't pay. Democrats need to do a better job of pointing that out.

[apnu]

15. My, my, how little times have changed. (nt)

[Fire1]

27. No. Thank God the tea party took the bait. n/t

[cottonseed]

29. Obama = FDR

[boxman15]

38. This may very well resemble 1937, but

it's still way too soon to tell for sure. Also, FDR still had a Congress overfilled with liberals who ran on the New Deal. Obama has a Congress filled with Tea Partiers. FDR would be able to reverse course relatively easily, with Obama it will take at least until 2013 to get more liberals into Congress, should he even be re-elected.

[FrenchieCat]

32. The Republicans suckered you into attacking Barack Obama and Dems....

most of the time that you post on the Internet, while leaving Republicans the fuck alone,
or laughing at them now and then!

I understand if you are unable to respond, what with bait in mouth and all!

[Pisces]

58. Perfect response.

[democracy1st]

33. NO NO NO! thats where you're wrong Obama knew exactly what he was doing,he approves ...

[Aerows]

34. I'm enraged with Obama

As a lesbian, I have watched the passive allowance of anti-gay measures - and sometimes active participation in them via fighting for DADT, and statements such as "marriage is between a man and a woman", until I'm fed up.

I've watched core programs become a target, teachers become a target, public workers become a target, and Wall Street bonuses get fatter.

You think I WANTED this? You think I didn't want someone to stand up and fight? Fine. *I* will be one to stand up and fight for it, and your ass can think about it when you are voted out of office. I don't need someone to say they stand for something then turn around and give it all away.

I'd rather fight a real Republican than fight a fake Democrat and hearing Democrats kiss up to someone that doesn't give a shit about what the party stands for.

[boxman15]

37. First of all,

it's still too soon to tell if this is a double-dip recession. Today was an awful day, no doubt about it, but we have to see what the overall trend is for a while before we hop into that ship.

I honestly don't care about anyone's election or re-election chances when compared to the impact of slipping back into recession. That being said, I feel that while Obama won't necessarily look good, the Republicans will get more of the blame. People think the GOP acted like a bunch of 2-year olds in a Congress full of 5-year olds, so the Dems won't look good, but the GOP will be in bad shape. People know that this bill leaned to the right and was watered down due to conservative demands.

I hope for the sake of the country we vote them out of office and put in liberal Congressmen so that we can get some more stimulus, should this be a new recession. Otherwise, we'll be stuck in a recession for at least 5 more years, regardless of whether or not President Obama gets re-elected (God help us if he doesn't).

[Recursion]

41. The DJIA is not the economy

And a lot of securities were probably overpriced.

[boxman15]

44. That's why I'm saying everybody needs to calm down.

It was a bad day on the markets and will do no good for confidence, but it's one day on Wall Street. The economy is more than the stock market. It's incredibly complex and will take a while to even realize what's actually going on, if anything actually is.

And reading into it more, I see no credible sources blaming this on the debt deal. It has to do more with the EU than anything, apparently. Considering almost none of the cuts take place until after 2012, that makes sense.

[Capn Sunshine]

39. If you're talking about today's market, allow me to explain

todays selling was generated by two forces, none directly related to America's economy.

1) we saw on the floor a LOT of sell orders from Offshore funds. These are Euro guys , in a panic because the EU is about to crash and burn, primarily due to their stupid austerity measures. So they are raising cash, primarily to buy T Bills and gold. Typical in a European crisis, of which there have been many.

2)The only day trade working right now is Short the market at the open, cover when the Euros close. Didn't work today and being caught short created more selling

This is ALL being blamed on the Tea Party no matter who you talk to.
Except on DU, which no one reads or is aware of in the world at large, where the blame seems to lie with Obama, as with all things, because they just HATE that guy.

[Cali_Democrat]

50. You don't think future earnings guidance from US companies

or proposed spending cuts in the US had anything to do with the drop?

You're saying most of the people selling equities were offshore and not US-based funds? I'm not sure if you're correct about that. Many US-based funds appear to be moving out of equities also. They are also raising cash and protecting themselves.

Also, regardless of who is to blame for spending cuts in the US, they are happening and that is a bad sign for economic growth.

[Mimosa]

51. Thanks for the insider observations

Keep informing us, Capn Sunshine. :D

[Recursion]

40. I don't think many pols are fooled by the "cuts" in the package

Cutting future discretionary spending is meaningless, and everybody on the Hill knows that. It was a way for Boehner to save enough face to whip the vote.

[Fire1]

42. It was actually a lie he told them to get the votes. n/t

[Recursion]

43. Exactly. Which is why the TP is still so pissed (nt)

[Fire1]

45. I'm under the impression they still don't know. They don't read

ya know. Cause when they 'finally' figure this out (it will really hit them in a few months) they're going after Bohner with pitch forks and torches! LOL!! And guess who's waiting in the cut to take his place?

[Recursion]

46. The thought of Speaker Cantor fills me with existential dread

But that looks like where we're headed.

[Fire1]

47. You GOT it!! LOL!! This shit is a tragic comedy,

POTUS is an evil genius!! LOL!!

[Skittles]

52. NO KIDDING

he adopts THEIR POLICIES which are SURE TO FAIL

[ClarkUSA]

54. Really? Preserving Pell Grants & protecting SS/Medicare benefits from cuts = "THEIR POLICIES"?

Will wonders never cease! :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

53. Yeah, that's why Boehner lied about the deal in order to sell it to his caucus before the vote.

:sarcasm:

[alpha9161]

55. I agree K&R

[workinclasszero]

57. BS He knew exactly what he was doing!

Hell he offered Social Security and Medicare to the tea party fascists, no problems! They weren't even asking for it! (this time...)

He freakin volunteered to help the thug party push grandma and grandpa off a f***** cliff!

HE KNEW THE CONSEQUENCES AND DID EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED TO DO!

[cstanleytech]

60. How odd, here I thought we were still dealing with the the same economic

problems that started under Bush and the republicans, I had no idea that the republicans were right and its all obamas fault now.

[golfguru]

61. It is called belt tightening for a reason n/t

[DCBob]

62. I dont think he had a choice.. the alternative would have been even worse.

The President and the Dems were not willing to call their bluff because they did not think they were bluffing.

[DirkGently]

64. Wouldn't have taken a genius to see it was coming & refuse to help them. Just a leader.