"Hardball" guest today said that "they" never accepted Obama -- or Clinton

[DeepModem Mom]

Chris Matthews made the point today that Obama has never been accepted by a large segment of Americans as a legitimate President, and that makes things difficult for a President in office, from the beginning. He said it was maybe partly racial, also the "foreign" idea.

It was pointed out, for example, that Cheney accused Obama again and again of being "soft on terror." (Then he got Osama, after they failed in two terms to get him.)

One of his guests reminded, however, that neither was Bill Clinton accepted. Remember all of the stories about drug-running and Vince Foster -- all the way to impeachment? There were those, of course, who hated FDR, the "traitor to his class." People knew the atmosphere in Dallas in '63 and feared for JFK going there that day.

The discussion on "Hardball" also included a contrast between opposition by Dems and the GOP. Dems thought George W. Bush, for example, not up to the job of the Presidency, not smart, etc., and said so. (I admit I also didn't accept his legitimacy, but not because of his persona -- because of Bush v Gore.)

The GOP, on the other hand, undermines the legitimacy of Democratic Presidents. And the Right will do just about anything they can to destroy them as Presidents and/or get them out of office. That's my belief.

[vaberella]

1. Racism is deeply tied to the illegitimacy and it shouldn't be ignored.

The difference is that one teabagger after another has caught saying something racist; alongside the hatred. Not to mention, Clinton NEVER had to provide a birth certificate. Obama is not hated solely because he's a Democrat----the high level of outrage is the rage against the fact that Blacks have reached the level of being President in this nation. There are far more deeper issues and those things cannot be ignored or pushed aside.

[DeepModem Mom]

3. I agree completely that there are deeper issues with Obama --

including race. Just making an additional point that not only is the Right out-of-bounds vile to Obama, but it makes things very difficult for any Dem President.

[my2sense]

5. +1

[DURHAM D]

12. Clinton's birth was constantly questioned. It never stopped.

Stories repeatedly ran that questioned who his "real" father was, that his Mother was a whore, that Mother gambled and drank so she didn't have any idea who his father was, Bill was born out of wedlock, etc.

Clinton was hated because he was lower-class. He was not legitimate. The only path to the White House (in the view of Republicans) is to be born into the right class or through military service. That's it. Clinton didn't deserve the WH. Obama does not deserve the WH. Carter was ok because he was a navy officer.

[Supersedeas]

22. how soon we forget...that Clinton's path always lead to impeachment

by those filled with ideological hatred

[Kind of Blue]

25. Not too sure about it never stopped.

I remember his mother became a symbol of single mothers and battered women, an eternal optimist and - if I remembered correctly - brave for getting out of a bad marriage at a time when women just stuck with it.
Carter also spoke Christian so that made him super okay.
Our president is judged under much stronger and vicious standards. There's no two ways about it.

[DURHAM D]

26. Although I wish Virginia was viewed as a positive symbol, that is just not true.

Her multiple marriages (4 or 5) and other interesting habits made her (and Bill) a target for ridicule and disdain until the day she died and years beyond.

A constant refrain when discussing Bill's extramarital activities "What did you expect? His Mother was a whore?" or some variation on that theme. Just this past Christmas I walked into a room (family members and Republicans) discussing Bill and blaming it all on Virginia.

[Kind of Blue]

34. Not denying that her colorful life was not

ridiculed but there is also no denying, unless you choose to, that she was also presented as a battered woman and a single mother who raised a president. The hard slams came from the right but it was always balanced out to me and many other young women that she was a hard working woman who loved life, men and was brave - and that there's nothing wrong that. These aren't commentaries that I'm pulling out of a hat because I certainly didn't know her, but what I read during those years and her interviews.

All depends on who you listen to and continue to listen to, I guess. I prefer the balanced view of the woman.

[DURHAM D]

35. JFTR - I am not talking about my personal view.

I too admired her. I am speaking about the "others" and how they used her history to trash Clinton. They do the same with Obama's mother. The others find women to be easy targets.

[Kind of Blue]

38. On that note, Got to agree with you :)

[karynnj]

31. Uhmmm Being born to the right class AND having military service did not help Gore or Kerry

Both Gore's and Kerry's ancestors were as elite as you can get and both served in the military. Yet, both were treated just as badly as Clinton was - and they did not get the media support that Clinton had in spades.

[DURHAM D]

33. The conversation is not about "getting" elected.

Its about "acceptance" of the legitimacy by the opposition post election.

Your comment about Clinton's media support is just silly. Makes me wonder what you were paying attention to in the 90s.

[karynnj]

39. The media was divided and in 1992, the media was pretty good for Clinton

His "bumps in the road" were downplayed and his explanations accepted - just as Obama's were in 2008. He was actually, at that point, treated far better than GHWB, who was cast as "out of touch" (remember his fascination with scanners at a check out counter), boring, old, and out dated - and they covered his vomiting at a dinner in Asia excessively.

During his presidency, the NYT was, by and large, mostly positive - about him and, even more so about Hillary. She was praised effusively when she appeared before Congress on healthcare and, even then, they often speculated that she could run for President herself one day. The networks, more powerful then than now, were not negative about Clinton and they really had no interest in Dole, often mentioning that he was a former "hatchetman" for the Republicans, not an inspiring characteristic.

While Whitewater and other things were investigated and the media covered it, they also reported in the conclusion that the Clintons did nothing illegal. While it is obvious that the Republicans investigated everything for political reasons, it is also clear the media did report when they were vindicated and they did write of the RW motivations of the accusers. They also covered the Monica Lewinsky charges, but for the most part, until Clinton admitted he lied, most of the media reported the accusations and the denials with pretty much equal weight. (Believe me if Michelle Obama turned $5,000 into $100,000 via trading cattle futures, the 2011 media would not have given her the pass that Hillary was pretty much given.)

As to what I saw in the 1990s, I assume that I could do as well as you on any test of 1990 events. I did watch the networks and I read the NYT and a Republican leaning NJ paper from my area, along with a few magazines.

[elleng]

2. Yes, they will do ANYTHING.

[BeyondGeography]

4. Losing makes them even crazier than winning

[elocs]

6. I have a retired Republican friend from Iowa whose father hated FDR,

which is probably why his son became a staunch Republican.

The funny thing is that the youngest of my friend's 3 sons attended the University of Minnesota and in just 4 short years, in spite of being at home for 18 years with a father who bleeds Republican, they turned him into a flaming Liberal. Ahhh, if only they had such powers.

The irony is that it is the flaming Lib who has always kept his home open for his mom and dad to visit and to see their grandchildren. I'm sure this creates a dilemma for my friend that he cannot entirely rectify with his political beliefs.

[Tx4obama]

7. Here's a link to the segment - VIDEO

VIDEO: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44009819#44009819

[DeepModem Mom]

8. Thank you!!!

Hope I remembered things in some form akin to the way they were expressed!

[Empowerer]

9. Racism is one of the reasons for the hatred of Clinton, too

Clinton was the victim of longstanding resentment and anger from an element - mostly in the South - who staunchly opposed desegregation, integration and equal rights for blacks. Many of those who drove the anti-Clinton efforts were the successors of the massive resistance movement. Clinton was seen as a traitor to his race, not legitimate, not one of them - a n*gger-lover.

This was not the only thing that drove the hatred against Clinton, but it was part of the mix.

[DevonRex]

10. Precisely right. Nt

[DeepModem Mom]

11. Good point -- race also playing a role re. Clinton. Also, FDR and JFK, I think...

all those years ago.

[Empowerer]

13. Yes, indeed.

Truman and Johnson, too.

[DURHAM D]

15. Yes and don't forget that Hillary was painted as a "n*gger lover" also

because her roommate at college was one of the few AA females at Wellesley.

Her name is Janet and she also happens to be Grant Hill's mother.

[DevonRex]

36. Yes, she was. You see, nobody can even "like" black people, much less BE a black person in the WH.

[comtec]

29. clinton was also called our first black president

which somehow seems ironic now

[Dawson Leery]

14. The GOP does not accept when they lose.

They do not accept the legitimacy of elections when they lose.

[DeepModem Mom]

16. As was made especially clear in the year 2000. And...

when the vote is undeniable, I'd guess they question the inclusive American electorate. Even now, they're trying to game the system with voting barriers all over the map.

[Dawson Leery]

20. I know of several right wing Rethugs who share this attitude.

Remember, we were told to shut up after the USSC handed Bush the 2000 election.
Obama wins by 7.3%, and he is a "fraud".

[chill_wind]

18. +1 What they can't Brooks Brothers Riot or Swiftboat, they'll steal..

eom

[TlalocW]

17. There is ALWAYS an element of racism when it comes to republicans

FDR was called Rosenfeld to link him to the Jews, who, let's remember weren't just hated in Germany in the 1930s.
It wasn't enough to start rumors that Clinton had an illegitimate child but a BLACK one. (W's people actually used this against McCain in 2000, referring to their adopted (and darker-skinned) daughter from Bangladesh).
And there has been such a big increase in racism both subtle and not since Obama won that it just congeals into one big mish-mash of racial hatred.

I knew shit was going to hit the fan when I watched that documentary on the 2008 elections that Nancy Pelosi's daughter made, where when it became evident that Obama was going to win, some big, fat, redneck, Nascar-lovin', tabaccy-chewin' bubba who would just as soon shoot you as look at you started blubbering about how it wasn't a white man's world anymore.

TlalocW

[butterfly77]

19. Ya think!

Where in the hell have these people been! If they open their damn ears and eyes when the evidence has been clearly in front of them since day one.

I am so tired of watching people pretending that they can see was is really there because they are still living in some type of fantasy of what they believe America is when it isn't what the media and movies told them it was.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

21. The main problem (for Republicans) IMHO is that they aren't in complete control of this country

and probably won't be happy until they control ALL the power in this country, however the probability of them ever actually controlling 100% of the power in this country is remote to non-existent and shrinking every day. They certainly can't get legitimately elected on their own merit in most parts of the country. That doesn't mean, however, that they won't try.

[comtec]

32. sad thing is they reallllllly SUCK at being in charge

even in business,, a liberal will always run a better, smother, more profitable, happier ship than a conservative.
silicon valley was RUN by hippy liberals and look what we got? nearly 8 solid years a non-stop high-profits and crazy amounts of technology!

i've always believed the crash was manufactured because of the new way of doing things that was created in silicon valley. That doesnt change that the boon was going to come to an end, but it was a difference between a soft landing (if gore had gotten in) and the epic crash when bush was selected in.

employees were treated as being integral and important t the company.
stock options made every employee owners and thus interested in the company's success.
it was STANDARD in many many many silicon valley companies to provide employees with food and heavily subsidized (free) soda and coffee.

Ive worked places where Friday night there was free beer and pizza after work!
that company is still around BTW

Another place I worked has espresso machines (the real ones) and coffee grinders in every kitchen (2-3 a building) and FULLY CATERED dinner on fridays...every friday. Lucent is still around - albeit barely IIRC.

This new way of treating employees had to be stopped of course. you can't have american companies treating americans like they're valuable individuals and integral to the success or fail of a company!!!! you have to treat them like shit!!!

sadly now, only the worst part of those great days remains... everyone is a contractor with even fewer rights than before. That was the dark side of Silicon valley, almost no one was an employee. I swear to god I even saw a monster posing for CEO once (monster is 99% agencies for the 6 people who don't know)

[Proud Liberal Dem]

41. Yup

Republicans run for GOVERNMENT telling everybody how bad government is and then when in office, they prove it! :puke:

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

23. Race is not ALL of it, but it's about 80 or 90 percent of it! n/t

[tanyev]

24. They would have gone after Hillary just as viciously if she had won.

Maybe for being "shrill" or "unstable". But the racism already present in much of the Republican base is a very convenient thing to play to in Obama's case.

[okieinpain]

37. thank you. people seem to forget that rush had a field day

with telling repugs to cross over during the dem primaries and vote for sen. obama to cause confusion. if hilary had won it would have been the same thing all over again, I just wonder if people on thie board would be calling her a coward and spineless.

[Cosmocat]

40. Al Gore, John Kerry, Howard Dean ...

Al Gore was deemed unworthy because he was arrogant. John Kerry was deamed weak and flip floppy. Howard Dean was destroyed over a scream ...

Look, they race bait with BO, no doubt about it.

But, they cuddle VERY tight to those african americans who are hold their party views.

It is all about the D ...

They spent nearly two decades making Hillary out to be very spawn of the devil, until such time as BO became the prohibitive favorite, then next thing you know, Murdoch is doing fund raisers for her and she became a Faux darling ...

[Enrique]

27. Matthews himself had some kind of vendetta against the Clintons

both Bill and Hillary.

[swilton]

28. Obama should have nipped this in the bud early on

by holding the Bush conspirators accountable for their many crimes - neutralizing rather than collaborating with the GOP should have been done as the first order of business.

[karynnj]

30. The Arkansas gun running was real - but it was not Clinton's doing, but the doing of the CIA

There is NO question that the airport in Mena, Arkansas was used to illegally arm the RW Contra thugs in Central America. That was part of the Iran/Contra scandal. That part of the effort was run by Oliver North. It is also true that part of the funding for it was from getting Central American cocaine that was sold as crack cocaine. (Is it a coincidence that this coincided with the crack epidemic in most big cities?)

Clinton was NEVER mentioned in the Iran/Contra hearings and he was never mentioned in any of the official reports - such as the Kerry report. There were links to the CIA and there were links into the Reagan/Bush administration. GHWB gave pardons to several people, high in his administration, who were known to have been guilty. It is pretty ironic that the right than took the more outrageous, not proven accusations surrounding this and tried to attach them to the governor of the state.

It may be that Governor Clinton was told by the CIA that these planes were part of a classified CIA effort. It would not be unusal for any Governor told that to not question it further.

[Fire1]

42. Tell me something I don't know. n/t