Feingold not appearing with Obama (twice) is hurting him, not helping him

[scheming daemons]

Feingold is way back in the polls.


Why?


He has consistently run AGAINST this White House.... even voting against the landmark FinReg reform.


Russ Feingold is exhibit A as to why being a "progressive's progressive" is not a winning strategy this year.


It may make the ultra left feel better, but it is not going to win elections.



The reason the Dems are in trouble right now is because INDEPENDENTS are leaving the Dems in droves, not progressives. The Dems are in trouble because they are losing the middle.


Progressives are unable to see this, but it is fact ...as evidenced in poll after poll after poll.

[dennis4868]

1. This reminds me when....

Gore ran away from Clinton's record during the 2000 campaign.

[karynnj]

2. Actually, he ran ON that record, but away from Clinton himself

- all though Gore did start sounding more progressive towards the end of the campaign. The fact though was that Gore was actually to Clinton's right if there was any difference when he was added to Clinton's ticket.

[polmaven]

55. Exactly!

If he had been able to serve a third term, I think Bill Clinton would have been re-elected by a landslide. If Gore had not run away from him, he could have had a very positive effect on the election.

[karynnj]

59. I really don't think so - there were many Democrats who were not happy

I suspect that the best bet for the Democrats would have been a nominee with no ties to Clinton. Had Bradley, a great Senator and person, run a better campaign, he could have had a better chance against Bush = as he had no link to Clinton.

With Gore, the problem likely was he was already tied to Clinton - and that couldn't change. There were high personal (not job approval) negatives for Clinton, but Gore already inherited them. As he couldn't escape the negatives, he might as well have taken the positives.

It was a tough question of what to do. I suspect that had Gore given Clinton a number of inner city, very blue state rallies, where he would have created enthusiastic crowds where he and Gore could have drummed up some enthusiasm it could have helped. The danger - as Hillary's campaign showed - is that he can be a loose cannon and he is definitely not someone any campaign could control.

[polmaven]

66. Well, lets you and I

just agree to disagree, OK? Polls at the time showed his popularity was up in the stratosphere.

[karynnj]

67. Polls at the time show that he was not in the stratospere

Here is polling report.com, which archive's various poll results. Here, there are three polls that span a long enough period to capture 2000. What you see is that early and mid 2000 is a time when Clinton's numbers were lower than before and lower than they would become. They do rise as the election approached, but that might not have happened had he either ran (which of course he couldn't) or had he been more active.

http://pollingreport.com/clinton1.htm

Look especially at the NBC poll that breaks the positive and the negative categories into very and somewhat. If you were on Gore's team in July or August 2000, using Clinton would have looked risky. However, as I mentioned, Gore was linked to Clinton whether he liked it or not, so people who would hold anything they disliked against Gore were already likely to do it. Gore would have been better off to pick a more dynamic VP (Lieberman was partially an anti-Clinton pick) and use Clinton.

[WI_DEM]

3. I tend to agree given the latest polls

Our candidate for Governor, Tom Barrett, the Mayor of Milwaukee, has not been running away from Obama. He appeared with him on Labor Day and he will be here again today. Barrett has run a very agressive campaign and is closing in on his GOP opponent, Scott Walker, in the new poll out by Fox Walker leads by four points. On the other hand, Feingold is behind his opponent, Johnson, by 8 in the same poll.

PPP/Kos had another poll last week with Feingold down by 11. I think that Feingold needs to forget about these indies who are voting GOP this year and concentrate on getting as high a turnout among Dems and that is why this rally today is a good opportunity. It will be a huge crowd and aimed at getting young voters motivated like in 08. In the Kos poll Obama has a 85/10 approval rating among dems while Russ has a 77/15. In the election the Kos/PPP poll indicates that Russ is winning dems 80/11 against Johnson, while Barrett is winning them 84-6--I think Russ needs to shore up his appeal with Dems in WI.

[Smashcut]

4. You're so full of shit it's coming out your ears.

Independents are leaving the party because the inadequate HALF-MEASURES our government has used to address serious problems have not appreciably made life better for them. They're leaving because our party has done too little to materially change things. It's really just that simple.

People like Feingold are losing support as collateral damage from the dissatisfaction with our party's failure to deliver on its promises, not because voters are upset with his vote on the goddamn stupid fucking FinReg reform bill.

And all people like you want to do is drive the last few actual liberals in the party either to the right or OUT of the party altogether. You will be the death of us.

[Drunken Irishman]

5. So, why is the Democratic governor doing better than Feingold in the polls?

Seems someone is full of shit and it ain't the OP...

;)

[NoNothing]

6. NOT the governor

The current Dem governor is not running. The Dem gubernatorial candidate is the mayor of Milwaukee, and he's doing better because he has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Washington, DC.

[scheming daemons]

10. The Dem Governor candidate is proudly running WITH Obama....

If hatred of DC was the issue, why would he PROUDLY stand side by side with the President?


Why risk that if being seen as being pro-Obama was toxic?


Because it is not.



Feingold is struggling because he's running away from the President.

[Smashcut]

13. Yeah and he's still LOSING.

Your point is?

[scheming daemons]

28. He's doing better than Feingold is.... in almost every poll, and in some by a wide margin

[Smashcut]

32. No he isn't, that's an absolute lie.

I showed you the numbers already. Even the FOX poll you're sweating shows the gubernatorial candidate losing.

[scheming daemons]

45. Yes... he's losing.. but losing by less than Feingold is losing.... WI_DEM already posted the polls

Even the FOX poll you reference shows Russ down by 11... and the Governor candidate down by 9. 2 points better than Russ.

[Smashcut]

49. PPP and Rasmussen show Barrett losing by as much or more.

You can stop flogging the FAUX now.

[butterfly77]

56. He believed the media bullsh** ..

about the TEABAGGERS during the health care debate,then he had a townhall and some of the TEABAGGERS attended and started screaming and thought they were the majority until he start getting hit with emails and support telling him WE ARE THE ONES WE ARE WAITING FOR!!!

[Smashcut]

7. You're kidding right? Latest Ras/PPP polls have Barrett down by

8 and 9, respectively. Ras has Feingold down by only 7.

In what universe is Barrett doing "better" than Feingold? Oh, right. The same one in which employment is on the rise, the wars are over, and everyone now has affordable health care.

People are pissed off at the Democratic brand. They don't see things getting better for most people and in a two-party system their only option is to vote for the opposition. (See: Scott Brown).

Keep thinking the kiss-conservative-ass strategy is a winner and watch us lose even more ground.

The OP is absolute, 100% bullshit.

[WI_DEM]

9. Actually Ras/PPP had Feingold down by 11 and Barrett down by 9

New poll out today has Feingold down by 8 and Barrett down by 4

Kos/PPP:
Russ Feingold Ron Johnson Undecided
All 41 52 7

Tom Barrett Scott Walker Undecided
All 41 50 8

http://www.dailykos.com/polling/2010/9/18/WI/3/A4ge9

Fox Poll out today:
Fox News / Pulse Opinion Research
9/25/10; 1,000 likely voters; 3% margin of error
Mode: Automated phone
(Fox release)

Wisconsin

2010 Senate
52% Johnson (R), 44% Feingold (D) (chart)

2010 Governor
49% Walker (R), 45% Barrett (D) (chart)

[Smashcut]

11. You just repeated the same PPP numbers that showed Barrett down

by a greater margin.

And I don't trust FOX anything, so let's not go there. Regardless, even they show Walker with a lead that's outside the MOE.

[PeaceNikki]

18. You're comparing Apples and Jeeps

Tom Barrett is the current mayor of Milwaukee, not the incumbent governor.

[Drunken Irishman]

20. Oh. He isn't a Democrat?

[Drunken Irishman]

22. And Pres. Obama's approval in Wisconsin is 49%...

Yet he's the reason Feingold is losing.

haha, DU has officially jumped the shark.

[PeaceNikki]

27. Again, you don't know his constituents

at ALL.

[Drunken Irishman]

35. Again, I know what you're saying...

You're telling me Feingold needs to win by gaining support of independents. I posted a poll down thread that showed only 38% of independents disapproved of Pres. Obama.

So why run away from a popular president to shore up independent votes?

[PeaceNikki]

38. LOL, game over he's attending

http://twitter.com/russfeingold

[Drunken Irishman]

40. Well it's a smart move.

He must've read the poll numbers. ;)

[scheming daemons]

47. Good... Russ has seen the same polls that WI_DEM is referencing.... wised up just in time

[Smashcut]

50. You mean the polls that show your argument about Feingold vs. Barrett were utter BS?

[scheming daemons]

8. Polls show you are 100% wrong

Liberals are supporting the President at about a 85-10 clip.

Moderates have fallen to about a 40-55 clip.... and they were close to 60% after the inauguration.


The fact is that Obama is NOT losing the liberals... he's losing the moderates.



And Russ is behind because he's running away from the President.




What you fail to realize is that YOU are in that tiny little 10% sliver of liberals that don't support the President (and frankly, never really have - if they're honest).



The Democrats are struggling because they are perceived as being too liberal by swing voters. That's the bottom line.



Facts aren't your strong suit, I understand that you are emotional about this. But Democrats aren't abandoning the Democratic party. Facts are facts. Independents are abandoning the Democratic party.

[Smashcut]

12. Link please.

And don't tell me facts aren't my strong suit, because I clearly just cited numbers that show you are the one who's completely out of touch with the truth. The Dem gubernatorial candidate who "stands proudly with Obama" is LOSING, in some polls by a greater margin than Feingold.

We're all aware of your agenda. Why don't you try this shit with someone who can't Google?

By the way, it really isn't necessary to put 3 spaces between every line. It makes your scattered thinking even more apparent.

[Drunken Irishman]

19. You're embarrassing yourself.

Pres. Obama still remains fairly popular in Wisconsin.

It's true that Obama remains generally popular in the state, but his approval rating has dipped to 49 percent, according to the most recent University of Wisconsin Badger poll — a drop of 11 points since last winter. That's a higher approval rating than in other key battleground states this fall, but it's unclear at this point whether Obama's standing would hurt or help Feingold, who is virtually tied in the polls with his GOP opponent, businessman Ron Johnson.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20100903/el_yblog_upshot/feingold-to-skip-obama-rally-in-wisconsin

So Pres. Obama is barely below 50% in Wisconsin and yet, he's the reason Feingold is losing?

:rofl:

Wow, you're so full of it.

[Smashcut]

24. Actually, you already embarrassed yourself upthread.

And what you just posted has ZERO to do with the OP. But I guess when you're called out for propagating lies, the best thing is to misdirect, right?

Where exactly did I say Obama is the reason Feingold is losing? Care to point that out to me, strawman? I refuted the argument that the "too-liberal" Feingold is losing because he hasn't embraced Obama and Repub lite policies enough.

Go suck an egg, you're useless here.

[Drunken Irishman]

31. LOL. Do you even read your posts?

Or do you let a monkey post for you?

The original post discusses how not being seen with Obama is hurting Feingold. Your response:

Independents are leaving the party because the inadequate HALF-MEASURES our government has used to address serious problems have not appreciably made life better for them. They're leaving because our party has done too little to materially change things. It's really just that simple.

People like Feingold are losing support as collateral damage from the dissatisfaction with our party's failure to deliver on its promises, not because voters are upset with his vote on the goddamn stupid fucking FinReg reform bill.

Please tell me who you're talking about there. Are you talking about just congressional Democrats? Because it sounds like you're talking about the party as a whole - including Pres. Obama.

Moreover, where is your proof Feingold is hurting because the party didn't live up to your expectations?

Show it, please.

[Smashcut]

43. The OP was about Feingold losing because he's a "progressive's progressive"

Not appearing with Obama was made out to be the difference between a losing candidate (Feingold) and a supposedly not-losing-as-much candidate (Barrett). Since that proposition has been soundly refuted, there's nothing more to say on that point.

Here's a public opinion poll from earlier this year showing opinion of the Democratic Party at an all-time low:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20005961-503544.html

Democrats are taking heat, and it has nothing to do with the OP's bullshit claim that liberals like Feingold are losing votes because they haven't danced to the Administration's tune.

[PeaceNikki]

25. He's fighting the "experience is bad" meme.

And you aren't real familiar with the persnickety Wisconsin voter. Feingold is wisely running a campaign on the fact that he does not toe the party line. He and Obama do not see eye-to-eye on a number of things and he's distancing himself with good reason. And wisely.

In addition, if Feingold did attend the rally, you crazy critics would probably blame him for missing a vote.

[Tarheel_Dem]

21. One might ask you for the same thing. Link please? I'd like proof of this.

You must have some numbers to back up this bold claim about independents? :shrug:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=458677&mesg_id=458706

[scheming daemons]

23. Link

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124922/Presidential-Job-Approval-Center.aspx

To Summarize, Obama approval:

(September 13-19, 2010)
Liberals Democrats: 85%
Moderate Democrats: 78%
Conservative Democrats: 65%
Pure Independents: 35%
Lib/Mod Republicans: 27%
Conservative Republicans: 7%


(January 4-10, 2010):
Liberal Democrats: 89%
Moderate Democrats: 79%
Conservative Democrats: 70%
Pure Independents: 42%
Lib/Mod Republicans: 33%
Conservative Republicans: 11%


Net change from Jan 2010 to Sep 2010:
Liberal Democrats: -4%
Moderate Democrats: -1%
Conservative Democrats: -5%
Pure Independents: -7%
Lib/Mod Republicans: -6%
Conservative Republicans: -4%



So... which group is he most bleeding support from? INDEPENDENTS.



Like I said... facts aren't your strong suit.


..and I put as many fucking spaces between my blank lines as I fucking please.



My "agenda" is to support the President and the Democratic party.... you're right that it is readily apparent to anyone paying attention....


What's your agenda? (besides stifling Democratic turnout as much as possible)

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

34. I'm with you. This kind of rationale always bothers me.

These people do not understand Wisconsin voters, Feingold's history here, or his opponent.

It was a wise move to stay in DC today and people here thinks he "deserves to lose" because of it. :eyes:

[Drunken Irishman]

37. We understand what the polls show us...

The poll, a Wisconsin poll, puts Obama's approval rating among independent voters at 50%. 38% disapprove of the job he is doing. That is a mighty large margin and yet Feingold would rather run away from a popular president to try and gain those independent voters? That makes absolutely NO SENSE.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Smashcut]

48. No, excuse me. Stop trying to redefine your point now that it's shown to be a total lie.

You argued that Feingold was losing because he's too liberal and hasn't appeared enough with Obama, whereas other candidates (Barrett) who have done so are "doing better" in the polls.

Since this proposition has been shown to be total bunk, there's no need to elaborate on it further. You may argue that Feingold is making a strategic mistake, but don't try to backpedal now on your original claim that Feingold in general is too liberal and that he was suffering more than other Democrats because of it. ("Far left," etc.)

Moreover, your claim that independents are overwhelmingly moderate lacks support. I would think especially now that the "far left" as you put it is apparently not welcome in this party, that is absolutely false.

Again, no one elected you the arbiter of who is and isn't a Democrat just because you're on the "centrist" (closet conservative) team. Get over yourself, and stop alienating people who are ON YOUR SIDE.

[scheming daemons]

51. A) WI_DEM already posted polls showing that Barrett is doing better than Feingold.... and B)....

Russ apparently agrees with me, because he just changed his plans so that he could appear with Obama in Wisconsin.


His people saw the same polls... saw that it was a mistake to run away from Obama.... and Russ is headed to Madison as we speak.


The PPP and Rasmussen polls you cite are old.... the latest polls prove the point of my OP.



....and I the point of the OP was and still is... it is a mistake to run away from Obama. Those are the words in the original OP, and they're the words now. Nothing has been "redefined".


Russ made a mistake in opposing FinReg Reform (running away from Obama), and it hurt him in the polls. Russ made a mistake on Labor Day weekend by not appearing with Obama in Milwaukee (running away from Obama), and it hurt him in the polls.

Russ has narrowly, just now, avoided compounding the second mistake.


Good for him.

[Smashcut]

52. You think if you keep repeating a statement that is DEMONSTRABLY FALSE enough

people will believe it?

Where have we seen that tactic before?

The Ras and PPP polls are less than 10 days old. Why would you rely on FAUX to get your "facts?"

Oh, right, I almost forgot who I was talking to. :eyes:

[Tarheel_Dem]

53. Did you miss my request for a link to your proclamation about "independents"?

You made a very broad & seemingly confident statement that you know why independents are fleeing? Link?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=458677&mesg_id=458706

[Smashcut]

54. Please see my reply with a link showing Dem Party approval rating

At an all-time low.

[Tarheel_Dem]

57. But you claimed to know exactly why?

"Independents are leaving the party because the inadequate HALF-MEASURES our government has used to address serious problems have not appreciably made life better for them. They're leaving because our party has done too little to materially change things. It's really just that simple."

You can admit that it was just your opinion, or provide REAL proof that you know what you're talking about? Now I can tell you what I've heard from commentators on NPR as to why indies are abandoning Dems this time around, but you still haven't proven that you know what you're talking about.

[Smashcut]

58. What it tends to show

Is that people are dissatisfied with Democrats in general, as opposed to the OP's false claim that only Dems like Feingold are losing (or losing "worse") because independents don't like how liberal they are, which has no factual support whatsoever.

Now usually when people are dissatisfied with a political leader or party, it's because that leader or party has failed to meet the positive goals they promised to achieve, or otherwise that conditions are poor and the party that's in control of things takes the blame. (This would be particularly true of people who have no specific allegiance to any party, i.e., "independents" - wouldn't you say?) Yes, it is my opinion that a major reason conditions are not improving for the vast majority is that the party in general has been too ready to compromise with and kowtow to those whose interests are opposed to the vast majority of the population, and the result has been mediocre policies that do little to address vast structural problems. Now, you may hold a different opinion about WHY these policy failures have occurred, but the fact remains that "BLAME THE LIBRULSSS!!!1111!" is not the correct answer.

[Tarheel_Dem]

60. Well, I'm glad you finally, even if half-heartedly, admitted that you have no...

imperical scientific data to back up your hypothesis. It's good to separate opinion from scientific fact, and I admire your ability to tell the difference. :thumbsup:

[Smashcut]

61. I've made reasonable inferences from the empirical data.

Obviously, none of us has the ability to read the minds of "independents" or anyone else for that matter, and that includes the OP.

[PeaceNikki]

63. As a dear friend of mine explained...

"And Feingold ended up making it..he didn't promise to be there because he had a vote (and hadn't missed one this session--I don't think he's missed any since his mother passed away several years ago) and it ended on time and the weather cooperated for a plane to get him to Madison on time. No conspiracy, no running away from Obama, just doing his job."

[zulchzulu]

14. Actually Feingold NOT appearing with Obama is helping him with Independents

Maybe it's easy from afar to tell with Wisconsin voters think, but the reality is that Obama is seen by the "Independent" vote negatively. They usually vote for Feingold even though they may not agree with him.

I still think Russ is going to win in a squeaker where he pulls up to Ron Johnson after people realize that Johnson is a stooge.

[PeaceNikki]

16. Yeah, this.

[Drunken Irishman]

26. Proof?

Pres. Obama's approval among Wisconsin independents stands at 50%. Only 38% of independents disapprove of the job Pres. Obama is doing. http://www.uwsc.wisc.edu/BP30PressRelease4_AppRatings.pdf">1

So tell me how being seen with Pres. Obama will hurt him with the independents?

[PeaceNikki]

29. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=458677&mesg_id=458842

[Drunken Irishman]

33. Nice try, but nope!

I just posted a poll debunking your whole point. Pres. Obama is popular among independents.

The voters you say Feingold needs to win over. Yet he's going to win 'em over by distancing himself from the lone popular Democrat among indies in the state?

:rolf:

God DU is becoming a parody of itself!

[PeaceNikki]

36. pssst. Obama isn't running. Feingold is.

And you know nothing about Wisconsin voters, Feingold's history here, or his opponent.

[Drunken Irishman]

39. Pssst...you said he needed to distance himself from Pres. Obama.

SO if Pres. Obama isn't running, why would he need to distance himself?

And you aren't real familiar with the persnickety Wisconsin voter. Feingold is wisely running a campaign on the fact that he does not toe the party line. He and Obama do not see eye-to-eye on a number of things and he's distancing himself with good reason. And wisely.

[PeaceNikki]

15. You aren't from WI, are you?

[Tarheel_Dem]

17. What you said!

:thumbsup:

[rhombus]

41. Ahem, Feingold is APPEARING with Obama tonight

http://twitter.com/russfeingold/status/25817560658

Time to lock this thread? :hide: :grouphug: :loveya:

[Drunken Irishman]

42. I believe so. Just in time for a shot.

Of whiskey. Who'll join me?

[scheming daemons]

46. That's not what Russ said earlier.... maybe Russ realized he was making a mistake

[golfguru]

62. 47 House Dems side with GOP on Investment taxes

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iV8UaDH816Rxzyikw9In_WGjT3cwD9IH63V80?docId=D9IH63V80

[MzShellG]

64. These wimpy dems.....

They are going to find that they're shooting themselves in the foot, throwing President Obama under the bus.

[PeaceNikki]

65. Hey... he DID go.

He didn't promise to be there because he had a vote (and hadn't missed one this session--I don't think he's missed any since his mother passed away several years ago) and it ended on time and the weather cooperated for a plane to get him to Madison on time. No conspiracy, no running away from Obama, just doing his job.