Democratic efforts: 11.5 million jobs

[ProSense]

2009:.. 3,350,000
2010:...8,175,000
Total:.11,525,000

source

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

2. "The 26 billion dollar bill to "save teachers' jobs and prevent layoffs" did no such thing."

You can't be serious? So funding is useless? By that logic, maybe Congress shouldn't waste its time trying to pass jobs bills.

[MadHound]

4. Not this year,

Like I said, if you would stop trying to twist my words with selective quotes, that 26 billion had no effect on hiring and firing decisions for this school year. Those decisions were already made for this school years, and tens of thousands of teachers' jobs are gone. Hell, KC just announced another round of teacher layoffs this past week.

Whether this has any effect on teacher hiring or firing will only be known next spring. Depends on what further hell Obama and Duncan unleashes against public education, and what actions school districts take in the meantime. But for now, that 26 billion won't save a teacher's job or prevent one single layoff. That is the truth of the matter.

This year's layoffs could have been mitigated if this bill had been passed last spring, but Obama and the Dems wanted to force as many states as possible into taking RTTT funds in order to further their own agenda regarding their assault on public education.

[ProSense]

7. "that 26 billion had no effect on hiring and firing decisions for this school year"

What about the coming school year? Does the coming year count?

[MadHound]

9. Are you being deliberately dense?

What do you think "this school year" means? This school year, the one that is opening up all over the country, this week or during the next couple of weeks, depending upon your location. Teacher contracts are all in, all done by July of any given year. Thus, these billions won't effect hiring or firing for this school year. Got it?

[ProSense]

12. " Thus, these billions won't effect hiring or firing for this school year. Got it? "

Are you being deliberately negative?

[MadHound]

14. No, unlike your cut and paste job there, I'm telling the truth.

For instance, in your little cut and paste job, you posted a link about Missouri getting 398 million from the bill. That's nice and all, but that money is right now being wrestled over in the state government, going through the wringer of the state funding formula, a process that will take weeks or months.

Meanwhile, as I pointed out earlier, teachers are being fired, and hiring and firing decisions are pretty much set in concrete for public schools this year.

Not being deliberately negative, I'm simply speaking the full truth, unlike you and your cut and pastes.

[ThomCat]

10. MadHound is correct.

That job fund for teachers was intended to fund charter schools, not to really save public school teachers. The timing of it, after teachers had already been laid off. And the small amount of it. And the fact that it is in conjunction with so damned much pro-charter school and pro-privatization policy doesn't fool anyone except the people who desperately want to believe the PR and spin.

teachers know better. They know they were booted out the door by Obama himself and aren't going to be allowed back in.

[MadHound]

13. Thank you,

This money was nothing but a smokescreen so that Obama and the Dems can claim their helping public education while they continue their assault on it.

[ProSense]

16. "That job fund for teachers was intended to fund charter schools, not to really save public school"

Can you provide evidence of this claim?

[ThomCat]

21. Given that the entire focus of the Dept of Education since Obama

took over has been to dismantle Teachers Unions and promote Charter Schools, I'd say can you provide even a shred of evidence that any of that money was ever really intended to save a single public school teacher?

It's time for the hard core supporters to prove that the there is any reason at all to believe the hype manufactured by PR firms. Any reason at all. Because that's all Obama is spouting.

Here in NYC we've had a front row seat to see the devastation Obama intends for the entire nation. He is shoveling money at the NYC schools through the Dept of Education. Klein, the head of our local school board, and Bloomberg, or mayor, have been using that money and their authority to do nothing except build charter schools.

To do it they use Obama's rules for so called failing schools, even if the schools aren't failing, even if the schools are actually improving according to the tests, and turn their building and resources over to private owners and businesses. They kick out the unions and make teachers bid for their old jobs, at entry level pay, minus benefits, with more work hours and work load.

Charter schools, by the way, do not have the same reporting requirements, and get to pick and choose their students, and have the rules rigged in their favors in many ways so that they can appear better than public schools. Even though, in all face to face comparisons they have failed to show that there is any benefit to any of this. Obama and Klein and Bloomberg are not helping students.

They are just killing unions and redistributing money. That's all. and that appears to be the actual goal. Improving students doesn't seem to have ever been the purpose, because it has never been the result, and they don't appear to be overly concerned about that.

[ProSense]

25. So you're arguing

without evidence, that this will aid charter schools? What does that have to do with the fact that it's a jobs bill?

Despite your mischaracterizations, this is a jobs bill.

[ThomCat]

30. You seem to have faith in everything coming out of Obama's office.

You believe every bit of PR. Believe whatever a Public Relations person writes is rather foolish and naive.

Faith is belief without evidence, so telling me that I have no evidence is kind of ironic. You have no evidence for any of your faith is this bill. You just choose to believe that the PR execs are so incredibly honest.

Good luck with that. :eyes:

The rest of us have been watching the actual results all along. And in the real world we know that best predictor of future results is past results.

[ProSense]

32. You aren't providing any evidence of your claim

Still, what does who it helps have to do with the fact that it's a jobs bill?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wisteria]

3. You read and your intelligent, so tell us what you think should be done to create and save jobs? n/t

[MadHound]

6. Are you talking about education jobs, or jobs in general?

If you're talking about education, this administration needs to drop its assault on public education, and instead devote their efforts to fully funding public education, and unlike this bill just passed, do so in a timely matter that will actually take effect this year rather than next.

As far as jobs in general, the creation of works programs, like the old style WPA, would be great. Instead they gave us a stimulus that consisted of forty percent tax cuts, the least effective form of stimulus going.

[wisteria]

68. I am not familar with WPA, can you provide some information for me? n/t

[Better Today]

5. Exactly right.

[ProSense]

8. What's exactly right?

That funding is useless? So because jobs were lost prior to the stimulus, the funding that came later was useless?

This is preposterous spin, and just more negativity in the face of any positive news.

[MadHound]

11. Show me one job that this money will save this school year.

Oh, that's right, you can't, because this money has no impact on this year's hiring and firing decisions.

[ProSense]

15. Here

<...>

School districts want to know how much money they will get so they can decide whether to bring jobs back or create new ones. Syracuse, the region’s largest district, so far has cut nearly 250 of its roughly 4,000 jobs, and district officials are eager to get the federal money.

Other school officials say the same.

“Absolutely, we need it,” Jordan-Elbridge Superintendent Marilyn Dominick said. “You know, we eliminated 17.4 positions. It’s a lot. And you know, some of those were enrollment driven, so I’m not in favor of just hiring all of those back. But we really cut too deep in a couple of areas but felt we had no choice.”

Liverpool was hit hard, too, and needs the money, Superintendent Richard Johns said. It cut 130 positions, including 48.5 teachers, and closed an elementary school. As of Friday, Johns had questions not only about how much his district would receive but how
it could be spent.

“Without a doubt, to be able to spend it in 2011-12 would help us,” he said.

Because school district budgets are already set and because the school year is at hand, districts may want to use the money next school year — if allowed by the law — when the budget situation is expected to be horrible, Cummings said.

link

It will come in handy for this and next year, unless you believe these officials are lying?

[Milo_Bloom]

19. Is this a joke?

Your quotes prove the poster's point. It was too little, too late and the damage was ALREADY DONE.

[ProSense]

22. No, but selective reading is. n/t

[Milo_Bloom]

24. Yeah, it's called reading the selection YOU provided.

[ProSense]

27. Here

Read this: “Absolutely, we need it,” Jordan-Elbridge Superintendent Marilyn Dominick said. “You know, we eliminated 17.4 positions. It’s a lot. And you know, some of those were enrollment driven, so I’m not in favor of just hiring all of those back. But we really cut too deep in a couple of areas but felt we had no choice.”

The question was show one job, there is at least one.

[Milo_Bloom]

28. What?!?!

Where in that line you provided does it say someone WAS hired back?

[ProSense]

31. "so I’m not in favor of just hiring all of those back"

What does that mean: could it be that he's in favor of hiring some of those back?

[Milo_Bloom]

34. Nah... that's not spin at all. LOL

So let me get this straight... your PROOF that people were, in fact, hired is that someone said they are not in favor or hiring everyone back.

No statement of ACTUAL hirings. No person who ACTUALLY was hired back. Just someone saying they are NOT in favor of hiring everyone back.


Oooooooooooooooooooooookay.

[ProSense]

38. "your PROOF" Seriously,

do you really care about proof?

Proof is spin according to you, everything positive is spin. There is nothing positive, it's all spin.

[Milo_Bloom]

41. Read the links before you post them.

Do you read your links?? This article doesn't say what you are claiming it says!

"Michigan got a $318-million federal windfall to preserve an estimated 4,700 teacher jobs, but it was uncertain Wednesday how many laid-off teachers would be back in classrooms when students return after Labor Day."

"There was no reliable statewide data showing how many pink-slipped teachers might return to work with the new funds"

The recalled teahers weren't even due to the money you claim helped... "Ruggirello said a large number of retirements resulted in the recall of many pink-slipped teachers"



The entire article is about the fact that this money ISN'T saving any jobs and that the recalled teachers are because of a large number of RETIREMENTS.

[ProSense]

Maybe

you should take your own advise

School districts want to know how much money they will get so they can decide whether to bring jobs back or create new ones. Syracuse, the region’s largest district, so far has cut nearly 250 of its roughly 4,000 jobs, and district officials are eager to get the federal money.

Any way you spin it, they need and are going to use the money.

[Milo_Bloom]

45. You are joking right?

So... let me get this new claim straight.

Them discussing what they are going to do IN THE FUTURE.. PROVES your claim of how many jobs HAVE BEEN CREATED?!?!

WOW... just... WOW.

[MadHound]

47. Yes, NEXT YEAR

Meanwhile, students are being stacked to the rafters in understaffed schools, and this money simply won't do anything to alleviate that problem.

[MadHound]

43. No, the question was to show one job that was saved THIS YEAR!

Geez, stop it with the selective quotes that twist my words. It really is annoying, not to mention intellectually dishonest. Almost Republican-like.

Your extensive cut and paste job upthread proves my point precisely:

“Without a doubt, to be able to spend it in 2011-12 would help us,” he said.

Because school district budgets are already set and because the school year is at hand, districts may want to use the money next school year — if allowed by the law — when the budget situation is expected to be horrible, Cummings said."

NEXT YEAR, NOT THIS YEAR. As the article states, school district budgets are already set. If Obama and the Dems had wanted to make a difference THIS year, they would have passed this legislation last spring.

Geez, you can't even keep your own spin straight. Sad, pathetic really.

[ProSense]

50. "Geez, " will it matter

if it did save jobs this year?

<...>

Granholm has 30 days to apply for the $318 million in federal aid. It's part of a $26-billion package to help states cope with strained finances.

Besides the money for schools, Michigan will get about $380 million for Medicaid services, which will reduce a looming general fund deficit for 2010-11.

Tiffany Brown, a spokeswoman for Granholm, said the application for the school funds will determine how the money is divided among school districts. Brown said that hasn't been decided, although many believe the current formula for state aid will be used as a foundation.

There was no reliable statewide data showing how many pink-slipped teachers might return to work with the new funds. The retirement of 17,000 school employees under a state incentive plan resulted in rehiring an unknown number of laid-off teachers.

Detroit Public Schools issued 2,000 layoff notices but is calling some teachers back; 715 were recalled Wednesday.

link

Does anything matter when your goal is to prove that nothing does?

[MadHound]

55. Still haven't shown that this money is saving a single education job THIS YEAR.

As your latest cut and paste says, all this money has to go through various state legislatures to be divided up, which is going to take awhile, probably a month at least since most state legislatures are in summer recess right now.

And as your cut and paste states: "There was no reliable statewide data showing how many pink-slipped teachers might return to work with the new funds."

Not a single one, not at this point. It is too late in the school year to start hiring or rehiring teachers. Those decisions have been made for this year, and this money won't come into play until next year. Meanwhile our kids will be the one paying the ultimate price for this year.

[ProSense]

18. More:

New York's 20th Congressional District, which contains parts of Essex County, is expected to get about $9.1 million to save about 125 teaching jobs, Korn said. The 23rd, which includes Franklin and Clinton counties and parts of Essex, should receive about $19 million to save 262 teaching jobs.

But the state Legislature will make the final decision on how to distribute the aid to school districts, so that could change. They have a few options: Send money out according to Title One, which targets school districts with a high percentage of low-income families, or go by the "primary established funding formula," which is how the state is now distributing aid.

Korn said NYSUT is encouraging the state to move quickly, since the school year is about to begin.

Saranac Lake Central School District Superintendent Gerald Goldman said he thinks it already might be too late to have much of an impact.

"We already passed a budget, we already have staffing plans, we already have schedules done," Goldman said.

He said it looks like the funding will be restricted to retaining jobs, rehiring fired teachers or hiring new employees rather than adding to a district's fund balance or reducing its tax levy. Adding teaching staff this late in the game, however, with less than a month before school starts, is difficult because it's next to impossible to change class schedules once they have been set.

Goldman said one possible use for the money would be hiring staff to help with students in need, since a recent change in grading of state evaluations means more Saranac Lake students are falling in the range of kids considered in need of academic intervention. But he said he doesn't want to commit to a way the district will use the money until he knows more about it.

"I think the jury is pretty much still out on how useful it's going to be, if it's ever going to arrive here, if it's going to arrive and something else is going to be taken away," Goldman said. "You just don't know."

link

What you fail to realize is that schools were strapped. The money is going to come in handy and will save or create jobs. Also, you fire and police departments, which also benefits from this aid, are not constrained by the school year. The money will benefit states. Period.

[MadHound]

44. While those in the field aren't near so enthusiastic as you

"I think the jury is pretty much still out on how useful it's going to be, if it's ever going to arrive here, if it's going to arrive and something else is going to be taken away," Goldman said. "You just don't know."

And for education, we simply won't know until next year. Meanwhile education is getting hammered, now.

[Milo_Bloom]

17. BINGO! And therein lies the problem!

They don't care about the actual result... it is about the APPEARANCE of a result.

People who aren't well informed will believe the hype, that hundreds of thousands of teachers jobs were saved, but much like you and my fiance's brother in law, it isn't so.

[ProSense]

20. "Detroit...Schools issued 2,000 layoff notices but is calling some teachers back; 715 were recalled"

<...>

Granholm has 30 days to apply for the $318 million in federal aid. It's part of a $26-billion package to help states cope with strained finances.

Besides the money for schools, Michigan will get about $380 million for Medicaid services, which will reduce a looming general fund deficit for 2010-11.

Tiffany Brown, a spokeswoman for Granholm, said the application for the school funds will determine how the money is divided among school districts. Brown said that hasn't been decided, although many believe the current formula for state aid will be used as a foundation.

There was no reliable statewide data showing how many pink-slipped teachers might return to work with the new funds. The retirement of 17,000 school employees under a state incentive plan resulted in rehiring an unknown number of laid-off teachers.

link

[Milo_Bloom]

23. "There was no reliable statewide data showing how many pink-slipped teachers might return to work"

The usual BS spin, from the usual BS sources.

[ProSense]

26. Yes, everything positive is spin and everything negative is fact.

Oh please.

[Milo_Bloom]

29. The FACTS are the FACTS.

Your assigning different meaning to words is spin.

[ProSense]

33. Right, the facts as Haley Barbour sees them.

It's incredible to watch Democrats trying to spin the uselessness of a jobs bill that provides aid to states.

Also, it's telling that the focus of the negative spin is on $26 billion that will save about 250,000 jobs when the thread is about legislation that created and will create 11.5 million jobs.

[Milo_Bloom]

35. There is a difference between USELESS and the insane

spin you claimed but are failing to prove.

If the democrats and people like you were just HONEST about these bills and the accomplishments you wouldn't find yourself in so much trouble so often.

[ProSense]

36. Democratic efforts: 11.5 million jobs

Care to denounce, reject or declare useless any of the other measures?

[Milo_Bloom]

37. FALSE CLAIM

That's the problem.

[ProSense]

39. So Boehner was right?

The stimulus hasn't saved/created any jobs? This is a false:

[Milo_Bloom]

42. 600,000 does not equal 11.5 MILLION

Thanks for proving my point so well.

[ProSense]

46. 600,000 is not 3.3 million, which

is the number of jobs saved or created by the stimulus.

Now, read the OP again, this is about the legislative efforts. Some of the bills were just passed.

[Milo_Bloom]

49. Quoting ANOTHER BS number doesn't help save your case.

But you did prove my point quite well.

600,000 is all you could PROVE.

yet you claim 11.5 MILLION based on spin.

THAT is what is wrong and why there is so little enthusiam. Reality is too far removed from the spin.

[ProSense]

53. .

It's BS. It's BS, I tell you. It's BS. It's spin.

:rofl:

[Milo_Bloom]

56. Can't prove your claims?

Thought so.

[ProSense]

66. "Ms. Van Ness, will benefit from the funding"

I watched this historic vote from the House gallery with two amazing teachers who received pink slips earlier this year—Amanda Van Ness from Toledo, Ohio; and Loris Welch from Perth Amboy, N.J. Ms. Welch just learned she has been recalled due to retirements and attrition but is anxiously hoping other laid-off colleagues, as well as Ms. Van Ness, will benefit from the funding.

more

One!

[Milo_Bloom]

69. Still 0

"Ms. Welch just learned she has been recalled due to retirements "

RETIREMENTS. Not the funding.

"anxiously hoping "

hoping isn't reality.


And spinning doesn't create facts!

[ProSense]

70. "Ms. Van Ness, will benefit from the funding" Wait

Ms. Welch is Ms. Van Ness?

"Ms. Van Ness, will benefit from the funding"

Who knew?

[Milo_Bloom]

72. "but is anxiously hoping other laid-off colleagues, as well as Ms. Van Ness, will benefit from..."

ANXIOUSLY HOPING.

Swing and a MISS!

try reading the links before posting them.

[cowman]

71. Let me tell you something about 3.3 million jobs created

you know how they arrive at that number? A very good friend of mine is the assistant Sheriff here in NYE County and he says that the feds provided grants for 2 positions at the Sheriff's Dept, only problem is that one postition is for 20 hours a week and the other position is for 10 hrs a month but the feds count it as two jobs created and I suspect that the vast majority of the 3.3 million jobs created are pretty much the same thing. Biden was an ass for claiming that.

[Milo_Bloom]

73. It's far worse than that.

Wrapped up in that number is the number of jobs "saved" based on nothing more than guess work (which have been 100% wrong so far in predicting where the unemployment rate would go).

This is what happens when we let spin control the day... we wind up with wild, unproveable claims which just make the democrats look BAD.

If we stuck to the ACTUAL FACTS, which ProSense posted at one point showing 600,000 private sector jobs gained, we would be much better off. However, they have to try and prove this ludicrous 11.5 million number and wind up falling flat on their faces, making democrats look bad!

[ProSense]

74. "showing 600,000 private sector jobs gained" Wasn't that

this year alone, 600,000 created this year?




It's interesting that people use the data to show that more than 8 million jobs were lost, with the economy losing hundreds of thousands of jobs each month, climbing to more than 800,000. Yet the same data that shows reversal of the job losses, with the economy adding jobs, is bogus.

[Milo_Bloom]

75. Yes, spinning the numbers is FALSE.

Showing them for what they actually say is true.

[Aramchek]

48. keep your dishonest shit to yourself, pal

[MadHound]

51. Like I've been telling ProSense, prove me wrong.

Show me where this money will save a single education job THIS YEAR. Otherwise all you are engaged in is spin, spin, spin.

[ProSense]

52. Here, for the third time:

<...>

Granholm has 30 days to apply for the $318 million in federal aid. It's part of a $26-billion package to help states cope with strained finances.

Besides the money for schools, Michigan will get about $380 million for Medicaid services, which will reduce a looming general fund deficit for 2010-11.

Tiffany Brown, a spokeswoman for Granholm, said the application for the school funds will determine how the money is divided among school districts. Brown said that hasn't been decided, although many believe the current formula for state aid will be used as a foundation.

There was no reliable statewide data showing how many pink-slipped teachers might return to work with the new funds. The retirement of 17,000 school employees under a state incentive plan resulted in rehiring an unknown number of laid-off teachers.

Detroit Public Schools issued 2,000 layoff notices but is calling some teachers back; 715 were recalled Wednesday.

link

Wednesday, not next year.

[Milo_Bloom]

54. "Ruggirello said a large number of retirements resulted in the recall of many pink-slipped teachers.

RETIREMENTS!!

[ProSense]

57. Not just retirements

"District spokesman Steve Wasko said any new federal money will be used to reduce class sizes."

Do you think that means they'll be using the money to put students in classrooms without teachers?

[Milo_Bloom]

59. That is NEXT YEAR.

We are talking about THIS YEAR.

The 700 jobs saved you keep trying to take credit for are due to RETIREMENTS NOT THIS MONEY THAT WON'T BE DISTRIBUTED UNTIL NEXT YEAR.

[MadHound]

60. Do you think that they'll be taking that action this year?

No, they won't, because once classes are set, contracts signed, resources allocated for a year, a school system can't afford to change in mid year. If you had any sort of real life knowledge of how schools work, you would recognize this fact, but all you've got is cut and paste knowledge.

[ProSense]

61. What do you think:

Michigan got a $318-million federal windfall to preserve an estimated 4,700 teacher jobs, but it was uncertain Wednesday how many laid-off teachers would be back in classrooms when students return after Labor Day.

[Milo_Bloom]

62. And thus the POINT of the article... that the money is saving any jobs.. THIS YEAR.

[MadHound]

63. I've told you what I know, but I'll repeat it for you again

As your article states, this money has to go through the meat grinder of the state government before it is distributed to local school districts. This will take at least a month, if not longer. Then local school districts need to decide what they're going to do with the money, which will certainly take longer than a month. So we'll be at least into October before the money is ready to go. The middle of the school year. Remember, contracts have already been signed, budgets already written. School districts are highly unlikely to upset the apple cart in the middle of the school year, to many negative repercussions ranging from going off budget to upsetting students. If you were an education professional you would recognize this.

So what is most likely going to happen is the school districts will sit on most of this money this year, only using some of it for school repair and maintenance. They're not going to be hiring teachers until next spring.

[ProSense]

67. We'll

see:

Without the bill, students returning to school this month and next faced class sizes of up to 40, cuts to courses they need to graduate, and less instruction time.

Without the bill, laid-off North Carolina teacher Bethany Banks had no classroom to return to next week.

“I’m excited,” Banks said of the House victory. She lost her job when her Title I school combined kindergarten and first-grade classes to save money. ”Hopefully this will help me have a job when teachers in my district are coming back to school.”

Without the bill, Pennsylvania school bus driver Chuck Thompson could count at least 20 teachers and 17 fellow education support professionals in his district who were going to lose their jobs permanently.

“This is a no-brainer,” Thompson said. “We need this money.”

link

It's likely that in a couple of weeks there will be more news about staffing.

[MadHound]

58. And again, your post shows that this isn't due to the 26 billion,

But rather early retirement is what is leading to these rehires. The money that Michigan received is still in the meat grinder of state governments.

Do you even read your own posts, your own links? You are continuing to prove my point for me.

[AtomicKitten]

64. Illuminating. K&R

[ProSense]

65. Thanks. The teachers

whose jobs will be spared by this funding will greatly appreciate it.

Although the state education department estimated the increased spending could spare the jobs of 1,600 teachers, uncertainty about the state budget could keep school leaders from acting quickly.

"There's only one thing worse and harder than cutting staff positions, and that's adding them back and then cutting them again," said Randy Schild, superintendent of the Tillamook school district.

The Tillamook district has cut all or part of 39 positions. With some attrition, fewer than 10 people were laid off but about 20 went from full time to part time, losing benefits along the way, he said.

The state's quarterly forecasts have consistently shown revenue falling short of expectations. Schild said he would await the next forecast, due in two weeks, before making staffing decisions.

more

The naysayers can't wrap their heads around the fact that district by district, this is going to save jobs and benefit states in a number of ways.

[SunsetDreams]

76. K&R

[inna]

77. Gotta try harder. Jobless recovery is a recovery for corporations.

http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/corporate_profits_have_recovered_but_job_market_still_depressed/

[ProSense]

78. Really makes one wonder why

companies aren't hiring?

Still, President Obama's policies have had a definite impact: Without federal intervention, unemployment would be near 16%