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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:01 AM
Original message
Bernstein Smacks Down Greenwald
http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/75461/bernstein-smacks-down-greenwald


Bernstein Smacks Down Greenwald

*
Jonathan Chait


Glenn Greenwald scoffs at those who claim that Obama lacks the power to bend Senators to his will:

What happened in this race also gives the lie to the insufferable excuse we've been hearing for the last 18 months from countless Obama defenders: namely, if the Senate doesn't have 60 votes to pass good legislation, it's not Obama's fault because he has no leverage over these conservative Senators. It was always obvious what an absurd joke that claim was; the very idea of The Impotent, Helpless President, presiding over a vast government and party apparatus, was laughable. But now, in light of Arkansas, nobody should ever be willing to utter that again with a straight face.


Jonathan Bernstein corrects him:

I don't know how to respond to this nicely: this is ignorant nonsense that betrays a deep lack of understanding of how the government of the United States works. ...

So a clever and hard-working president can get some -- some! -- of the things he wants. As Matt Yglesias notes, all the pressure in the world on Blanche Lincoln wasn't going to make much of a difference when it came to health care reform. That's because she wasn't the 60th vote -- in fact, she and Mary Landrieu were probably votes numbers 56 and 57, something like that. More to the point, on the public option (which is presumably Greenwald's complaint, since as he might recall the actual, landmark health care bill did, as a matter of historic record, actually pass), well, the public option only had somewhere around 51, 52, or 53 votes in the Senate. Oh, and that's for a very weak public option, something that the actual policy experts believed was largely inconsequential. For better or worse, a "robust" public option didn't have the votes in the House, and certainly didn't have the votes in the Senate -- a strong public option had somewhere between 45 and 48 votes in the Senate, by my count.

Could Barack Obama have threatened a dozen Democrats with primaries? That's a pretty blunt instrument, and he'd be crazy to use it too often. Could he have found other weapons? It sure seems unlikely to me. More to the point, Obama, like all presidents, had to establish priorities, assess where the votes were, and decide how to use the resources of the presidency. He had, of course, a long agenda, with various constituencies pushing to have their pet issue and the sub-issues contained within each of those issues placed at the top. And while he had a lot of assets, including a large majority in the House and (for a very brief period) 60 Democratic Senators, he had a lot of constraints, including all the problems he inherited that had little to do with the long-term Democratic agenda and a fully rejectionist Republican party. The latter -- and really, it takes a complete misunderstanding of how the American political system works not to see this -- means that individual Democratic Senators hold a great deal of bargaining power over the president. Not, alas for Obama and for the liberal agenda, the other way around.


The most amusing thing about those on the left and the right who think their party leaders are sell-outs is how unaware they are of their resemblance to each other. The conservative movement is filled with people who think George W. Bush failed to cut spending because he lacked sufficient willpower to demand it. Very few of them understand, say, that Bush had to support some kind of prescription drug bill to win in 2000 and had to follow through on his promise to win in 2004. They believe the problem was that Bush was insufficiently committed to their ideological goals. Time to replace him with a true believer!
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. Greenwald is very naive about how politics work.
For him, it's about whether people are good people or bad people and how badly they want something.

He really has no stomach for reality-based, empirical analysis of politics. He just posts eloquent, but ultimately thoughtless, rants.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Greenwald and Beck are actually two "Glens" in a glen
Both are politically ignorant. Both spew the same shit, just from different assholes.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. Greenwald has great ideals, they just don't translate to everyday politics
very well.
Bargaining is always what it takes to get something you want passed.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. People like to think Obama can control Congress. Hell no...
Democrats don't work like Republicans. You can do what you want as a Republican President because you know your cronies will follow you into a tar pit if you sell it as a swimming pool. Why? Because that's what they do. Democrats/Independents, should realize that Democrats don't roll that way. As a matter of fact from what I've seen...Democrats do know this only when it suits them. "We don't follow the leader..." blah blah blah. So then you expect your Senators to? Even if it's the right thing to do? For them, it's not the right thing to do and based on the votes Blanche Lincoln got in Arkansas her people agree (but then there's no accounting for Arkansas at this point). In any event, Obama is a democratic President. Who is dealing with a Democratic Congress that runs both extreme with most falling in between in various degrees. I get annoyed when people assume the President can "twist arms" or "bend wills" <---Not if they (Senators/House Reps) don't want too and they have the backing to make good on such actions. So Obama has a Republican team that hates his guts for racial and/or ideological reasons and he has a Democrat group the swings in many directions. So for people to want great laws past---please be a bit more pragmatic---Obama can't do all and his team isn't that great when it comes to Congress.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Actually, Bush's own party defied him on immigration.
Bush was also unable to get social security privatization passed in 2005, even after winning the election and having Democrats on their heels.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. True. Then let me rephrase to 90% of the time. Unlike Dems. n/t
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. Greenwald has never said anything positive about Obama
His bias is way too obvious for him to be taken seriously.
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Wandawilkerson Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Greenwald praised Obama for picking Dawn Johnston and for picking Sotomayor
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 10:36 AM by Wandawilkerson
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Wandawilkerson Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
8. How can you "smack someone down" if the person isn't there?
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 10:31 AM by Wandawilkerson
I thought you were going to link to some sort of debate between Bernstein and Greenwald, face to face, or something. Instead, we get a link to the Centrist Iraq-war supporting, Lieberman-loving The New Republic, written by Iraq War supporter Jonathan Chait.

How gutsy of this Bernstein dude! (P.s. Who is Bernstein?)
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Would this link suit you better? I notice you say nothing
about the substance of the post, which btw, Chait didn't even write.

http://plainblogaboutpolitics.blogspot.com/2010/06/presidency-is-weak-really.html
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Wandawilkerson Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. My specific question is, how can it be a "smackdown" if the other person isn't there?
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 10:40 AM by Wandawilkerson
Could it be that you don't like Greenwald, and that's why you call it a "smackdown"?

By the way,do you deny having trumpeted Jonathan Chait's material several times here before?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Not my title, dear. I'm just posting an article, as I do. nt
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Wandawilkerson Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. So..the Iraq War cheerleader is the one who calleld it a "smackdown"
That's better.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
9. Greenwald is completely clueless about politics.
He, along with some other progressives, seem to think if "your side" wins the election, they can do anything they want, and they can force the other side to support your policies.

He proves once again how out of touch he is with politics.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. +1!
Ain't that the truth.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. Greewald was spot on, factual and well documented
this guy's just spitting out apologist drivel and baseless CW. The sort of drivel and "justification" that causes Democrats to lose- and has resulted in Republicans being poised to take back the house- when they ought to have been relegated back to the fringe for a generation.

Sad thing is that if Republicans do manage to take back the house- center right Democrats and their rationalizers will STILL never learn.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Greenwald is a left libertarian who thinks people in politics are motivated
by being bad or good. I don't necessarily disagree with him on everything but he would not last long in politics. Bargaining, compromise, backroom dealing etc. is something every President has to do to get something done in Congress. That has been around more then 100 years. When Presidents overstep their boundaries it is not good for the country either. The trick is finding the right balance. Dems don't usually march in lockstep, Rethugs usually do though Bush was defied on a few things like Immigration Reform. Congress has too much power right now and has for a long time. I am sure letting Corps have their free speech will only help matters.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. I don't agree with Greenwald on everything, either
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 11:43 AM by depakid
but I was alive, cognizant and engaged during the health care debacle- and found his take(s) to be on the mark, whereas Bernstein's is simply more of the same (in some respects dishonest) rationaliztion that gets trotted out every time the Dems sell a constituency- or the clear public interest down the river in favor of narrow corporate lobbies.

Regarding the corporate speech deal- the results in the California initiatives were somewhat promising. Might not be as easy on some of these races to pull the wool over people's eyes as one might have thought.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. That is California. In states where there is less of a liberal base,
things might be different.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
16. "this is ignorant nonsense that betrays a deep lack of understanding of how the government "
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 10:42 AM by ProSense
They continue to mischaracterize everything he does, except when they're ready to take credit for it.

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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
18. Greenwald is a racist. That's all.
Shame on him.
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Wandawilkerson Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I hadn't heard that one before...but hey, to each his own! n/t
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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. You may want to read his "glorious" article again.
Black people voted for Lincoln because Obama told them to do so.

Obviously, Black people can't decide by themselves. They're merely Obama's tools.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. That's not what he said. In fact you are lying.
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 12:58 PM by Raineyb
But he did point out that black people's trust of Obama was used to help Lincoln and that's the fucking truth.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Please read my post #32 . nt
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 12:16 PM by Phoebe Loosinhouse
edit for typo
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
21. As mentioned in GD- that's just a laughably bad piece
Embarrassingly so.

Only a "true believer" who ignores all of the facts inconvenient to their hero (or was asleep) during the health care would take any solace in this line of bull.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. No it isn't
It's a piece smacking down the nonsense that too many people seem willing to buy into. Of course it's being characterized as "laughably bad." How else would Greenwald's fans be able to continue holding his opinion up as the ultimate truth?

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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. LOL- your post is proof positive!
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 11:22 AM by depakid
This garbage is the same sorry, hackneyed tune that's been sung year after year by center right Democrats to justify their failures and their pandering to the right.

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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Yep. And they have no problem with his blunt racism
as he said that blacks voted for Lincoln because Obama told them to do so.

Obviously black people have no opinion of their own. They're merely Obama's tools.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. That's another laughable take-
you must be rather young or not been following politics very long.

Oh and btw: did you see Blanche's first move back in the Senate?

Voted with the Republicans to block climate change authorization at the EPA. Beauty, eh?
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Link to Greenwald statement, please?
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. Really trying to get him with the racism angle aren't you?
Here's the exact Greenwald quote you are referring to, but apparently unable to post from this article

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/06/10/lincoln/index.html

In other words, Obama exploited the trust that African-American voters place in him to tell them something that is just absurd: that Blanche Lincoln, one of the most corporatist members of Congress, works for their interests. Bill Clinton did the same with the Arkansas voters who still trust him.


To draw that conclusion he himself included a link to this article from the Washington Post


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/09/AR2010060905618.html?sid=ST2010060903121
Lincoln's Ark. runoff win points to power of black voters

By Peter Slevin and Karen Tumulty
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, June 9, 2010; 7:34 PM

LITTLE ROCK -- For all the millions that both sides spent on the bruising Arkansas Senate Democratic primary race, Yvonne Thomas admits she went to the polls not having much of a sense about the candidates.

What she did know, and what turned out to be the only thing that mattered in her decision to cast her ballot for the embattled incumbent Blanche Lincoln, was this: "Obama wanted us to vote for her," said Thomas, who is African American.

Unlike in much of the South, in Arkansas it is a rare thing for the black vote to be the decisive factor in elections. African Americans here account for 16 percent of the population -- about half their percentage in Georgia to the east. Arkansas is the only state from the Confederacy that has never elected a black candidate to Congress, or to any statewide office, since Reconstruction.

But in this election, Lincoln and her Democratic primary challenger, Lt. Gov. Bill Halter, battled hard to win black voters. The intensity of that courtship was evidenced by the large number of African Americans who stood onstage Tuesday night with Lincoln as she celebrated a victory that the smart money in Washington had declared to be all but out of reach.


When you made this same assertion in this thread, post number 278
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8529658#8536267


I replied and advised you to read this

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/news/ap/politics/2010/Jun/07/ark__democrats_vie_for_black_voters_in_senate_race.html

An excellent Ap article about how BOTH the Halter and Lincoln campaigns made very specific appeals to the African Americans voters in Arkansas who would probably clinch the outcome for either candidate.

Greenwald AND the Washington Post AND the AP all made the point that President Obama's opinion carried a lot of influence with black voters. Why is that a surprise? Is the Washington Post racist as well for pointing that out? Is the AP? Where Greenwald differed is in pointing out how cynical it was for Obama to say that Lincoln was the better candidate policy wise when she clearly was not.

Try discussing the actual issues instead of just making blanket accusations of racism.



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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Thanks for the reality-based response! Accusing Greenwald of racism is sheer desperation and
deflection.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. Dayum, I do believe I found a "true believer" and an example
that we can all aspire to. We are so not worthy of your enlightened presence and sagacious self.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
28. K&R
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
38. K & R.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
39. By his own admission, he never voted (as of 2006)
He describes himself (in How Would a Patriot Act) as neither liberal nor conservative. He lives in Brazil most of the time. His ideas on the First Amendment are so rigid that he chose to defend notorious neo-Nazi Matthew Hale (currently serving 40 years in prison). He lives in Brazil most of the time.

Why would anyone take political advice from him?
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merkins Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
40. DLC Circle Jerk
don't forget the kleenex to clean up afterwards
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. greenwald is blogwhore jerk.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
41. That doesn't stop
greenwald..he revels in it. "I don't know how to respond to this nicely: this is ignorant nonsense that betrays a deep lack of understanding of how the government of the United States works."

Thank you, Jonathan Bernstein and babylonsister!

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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
43. Greenwald is close to being correct
The fact is that the Obama people NEVER wanted a robust public option. That was part of their deal with the health care industry. Greenwald missed the mark solely because he ascribed the position to Obama that he actually would have liked to see a public option. He never did and the way the bill ended up was exactly what he and big insurance wanted. In short, Greenwald was way to mild in his criticism.
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
44. K&R&T&S
Kick and Rec and Twist and Shout!

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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
45. Many also try to pretend as though..
Bluedog/RepubliCONS really have stopped,stalled and watered down everything he has tried to do. Many talk as though they were in on every conversation in the background and just because he is PRESIDENT he can make them do what he wants look how hard he has had it with everything he has tried to pass because many of the Dems who still wanted Hillary went on the attack and still are, some are racists and just can't have a black man or person as President so they joined the people who destroyed everything and many pretend to talk for all Dems when they don't give a damn its all about the money and the hate.

Do they really think that Black Americans will just fall back into the fold after Obama leaves office. Many things that have been said about Obama is really being said about AA and they seem to think that AA will forget. Many feel they don't have anything else to lose and are saying fuck it because they know what is behind a lot of these questions and statements against the president. Many of these people have the AUDACITY to go on fox and other outlets pretending to be a Democratic strategist or pollster. YOUR NOT FOOLING ANYONE BUT YOUR BLIND ASS TEABAGGERS AND RACISTS..

When the President first took office and even before I was screaming where in the hell are the Dems! Then the townhalls,WHERE IN THE HELL ARE THE DEMS! Then we started really seeing what was going on people who some had thought for years were fighting for Dems were no where to be found because they were angry because a black man won,and many still pretend. Some kept asking why can't he do this or that and we soon found out for sure they were protecting the corporations all along and they couldn't be seen helping a black President.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
46. K & R
:thumbsup:
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