Hugo Chavez orders expropriation of historic buildings

[naaman fletcher]

"What's that building? Wasn't it once a theatre?" Mr Chavez asked the mayor of Caracas, Jorge Rodriguez, who was accompanying him.
Reassured that the state theatre was already in state hands, Mr Chavez turned his attention to the building next door, which he was told was now owned by a jeweller.

"Expropriate it," he said.


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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8503892.stm

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Good, one less piece of the country owned by the fascists. Take it all, I say!

[FSogol]

1. Um, the fascist are the ones seizing private property.

Stealing for the state is still stealing.

:shrug:

[a la izquierda]

10. expropriation isn't necessarily stealing, jeez.

When Lazaro Cardenas expropriated the oil companies in 1938, the Mexican government PAID the oil companies the value of the company based upon past tax records. This, of course, meant that oil companies cheating on their taxes got "screwed." But Cardenas did not, by any stretch of the imagination, steal the companies.

[DavidDvorkin]

2. How do you know that the jeweller is a fascist?

[naaman fletcher]

4. Because he is an owner and not a worker.

/sarcasm.. I'm just kidding man. I'm anti Chavez.

[WeDidIt]

3. Chavez is a brutal dictator

He's every bit as much an "elected leader" as Saddam Hussein was.

Fuck Chavez. I consider him an enemy to freedom and this nation.

[Whisp]

5. whats this freedom you are talking about?

[leftstreet]

6. Venezuelans are stupid not to elect a more benevolent dictator

:eyes:

[Enrique]

9. and a ruthless expropriator of historic buildings!

:scared:

[Peace Patriot]

16. Do you know how YOUR vote is counted?

Here are the facts, my friend.

ALL votes in the U.S. are now 'counted' by a handful of rightwing corporations, using 'TRADE SECRET,' proprietary programming code--code that no citizen, and, indeed, not even secretaries of state, are permitted to review--with virtually no audit/recount controls. In half the states of the U.S., there is NO AUDIT AT ALL, because there is NO paper trail by which to compare the actual votes with the machine totals. In the other half, they do a miserably inadequate 1% audit--99% of the votes are never seen by human eyes and are never 'counted' except by 'TRADE SECRET' code. Experts whom I respect say that a 10% audit (comparison of ballots to machine totals) is the minimum required to detect machine fraud. Half the states can't do it, because they don't have a ballot; the other half don't bother with 99% of the ballots.

It get worse. ES&S, the electronic voting machine corporation that just bought out Diebold (aka, 'Premier') now has a monopoly of 70% of U.S. voting systems. ES&S's initial funder and major investor is reclusive, rightwing, multi-billionaire Howard Ahmanson, who also gave one million dollars to the extremist 'christian' Chalcedon foundation, which touts the death penalty for homosexuals!

That's who is likely 'counting' your vote--a multi-billionaire rightwing nutball--with 'TRADE SECRET' code!

Compare and contrast to Venezuela:

Venezuela has an OPEN SOURCE code system--anyone may review the code by which the votes are tabulated--and they hand-count a whopping 55% of the ballots as a check on machine fraud--more than five times the minimum necessary. In addition, the Chavez government has invited every major election monitoring group in the world--the Carter Center, the OAS, the EU and others--to, first of all, set up a "best practices" system, and second, to crawl all over Venezuela during major elections to ensure that the "best practices" are being followed, and everyone of these election expert organizations has certified Venezuela's elections as honest, aboveboard and transparent.

Maybe that's why Venezuela has universal free medical care, and we don't--hm?

Venezuela's election system is far, FAR more transparent than our own. Howard Ahmanson is the "enemy of freedom"--not Chavez.

You cannot say that Chavez was not elected. It is absolutely, provably wrong. So what argument will you shift to now, with this B.S.? Are you going to say that Venezuelan voters are stupid peasants who keep electing a "dictator," an "incompetent," a "clown," or whatever the epithet of the day is? Are you going to say that Chavez "buys the votes" of the poor majority by funding education, health care, community centers, land reform and other good government programs? What is your excuse going to be for continuing to assert that Chavez is somehow like Saddam Hussein?

And you're going to have to prove it, cuz you know what? Chavez has harmed no one, killed no one, tortured no one, invaded no one. There is absolutely no resemblance between them. Chavez is one of the important leaders of a great leftist democracy movement that has swept Latin America--with leftist leaders, who are friends and allies of Chavez, elected in Bolivia, Argentina, Brazil, Ecuador, Uruguay, Paraguay, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala and until the rightwing military coup, in Honduras (and almost in Mexico). Saddam Hussein invaded his neighbors--Iran (a long bloody war against them), and Kuwait. Who has Chavez invaded? Lula da Silva, president of Brazil, called Chavez "the great peacemaker" (for helping to stop a war when the U.S./Colombia dropped bombs on Ecuador's territory in March 2008). Lulu also said, of Chavez, "They can invent all sorts of things to criticize Chavez, but not on democracy!"

So, who am I going to believe? The Venezuelan people who have repeatedly voted for Chavez, by big margins, in transparent elections, and a neighboring leader who meets with Chavez every month to discuss issues of mutual concern--or you, who are totally clueless about Chavez, the Chavez government, Venezuela and the region?

[protocol rv]

18. I don't think Chavez will win an honest election anymore

The way things are going here, Chavez won't win an election. He may cheat with his electronic machines, or abuse people, force them to vote his way under threat, dominate the airwaves, use public money to finance his party's election efforts. But he's not winning anymore. He's performing very poorly, behaving badly, and it's time for change.

[Peace Patriot]

21. "Chavez won't win an election"? He's won, what?, 6 of 7 elections so far, by big margins?

1998 (Chavez wins--short term). 2000--New Constitution and Chavev reelected as president. 2002 (not an election, but tens of thousands of Venezuelans turned back a rightwing coup against Chavez, at risk of their lives). 2004--USAID-funded recall election, he won hands down. 2006--reelected by an even bigger margin. 2007--lost the 69 amendment vote (very close--1%). 2008--won big on the stand-alone issue of term limits. A legislative election in there somewhere--rightwing boycotted, Chavistas won almost all the seats.

So you can't really point to anything in precedent or current events to predict that "Chavez won't win an election." Just your fuzzy feeling impression seething desire.

"He may cheat with his electronic machines...". When has he ever cheated? Did you even read my post? Chavez has no control whatsoever over the Supreme Electoral Court. It's a "best practices" system, set up by the Carter Center with heavy involvement of ALL parties in Venezuela, and heavily and closely monitored by international groups. You make these wild statements with nothing whatsoever to back it up.

"Or he may abuse people, force them to vote his way under threat...". Yeah, and the Pope may become a Muslim. Jeez.

"Dominate the airwaves...". You begrudge him his show, when your lot control MOST of the airwaves and spew Faux News rightwing vitriol 24/7? He's president of the country, for godssakes! He gets to be on the news! You can't stand it, can you? That the other side gets to have a say?

"...use public money to finance his party's election efforts...". Yeah, well, so did George Bush--use MY money to defeat him! Chavez is president. He runs the government. He gets to make that call--what's fair, what isn't, for his supporters to do--and the Electoral Court, and the Carter Center, and the OAS, and the EU, and the rightwing, and the CIA, and the WHOLE WORLD will all be watching.

"But he's not winning anymore." Just won the term limits election. Precedent, please?

"He's performing very poorly...". Yeah, says who? And have they ever said otherwise? He's been "performing very poorly" from Day One, according to SOME people. And he's still president, elected in TRANSPARENT elections.

He's "behaving badly." See the above.

"...and it's time for change." Up to the voters.

And that's really the point that you don't seem to get. If he wins, he's cheating--according to you. You have no respect for the voters, or the years of hard work that numerous international, national and local groups and people have put into transparent elections in Venezuela. You are disrespectful of both, and you have absolutely nothing to back up your opinions with. Your opinions are just "wishes, lies and dreams." Not real.

[protocol rv]

30. Keep bragging

He won before, he won't win cleanly any more. People are tired of his performance. It's time for change. And the polls show heis losing popularity all the time. Right now, if this were a normal democracy, he would be preparing to retire to Margarita Island.

[Wilms]

31. Are you already declaring a future Chavez electoral victory a fraud?

Tsk.

Anyway, with a 58% approval rating, I'd understand him winning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=30383&mesg_id=30387

[ChangoLoa]

32. He doesn't have that approval rating, your source is a militant paper. nt

[Wilms]

33. Really? Then show us YOUR source.

BTW LexisNexis has it too.

http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publisher/EndUser?Action=UserDisplayFullDocument&orgId=574&topicId=100800026&docId=l:1124166822&start=3

[ChangoLoa]

39. My source is the IVAD report, which isn't published in the internet but in paper

"Link" is not "source"... what you show is the same old Morning Star article published by LexisNexis.

Wait a little until someone decides to scan it and put it online.

[Wilms]

40. Does it make you dizzy?

Never mind your excuses. Here's another link.

"More than 58 percent of the Venezuelan population supports President Hugo Chávez’s performance, according to the report issued by the Venezuelan Institute of Data Analysis (IVAD). The report also says that if there were presidential elections in the near future, the Venezuelan president would be elected with a majority."

snip

Regarding the people’s opinion about the measures taken by the Venezuelan administration to improve the energy problems in the country, 51.7 percent said that they agree, while 40.8 percent disagree.

When asked about whether they think that the Venezuelan administration will be able to solve drought problems in the country, 47.2 percent of the survey participants said it would be able to, while 45.2 percent said that it would not.

In this sense, 32.2 percent considered that the problem is due to a natural phenomenon, since it has not rained enough; 24.6 percent said that it is the government’s responsibility and 18.5 percent said it is due to the lack of people’s consciousness.

http://embavenez-us.org/news.php?nid=5269

[ChangoLoa]

41. Have you been drinking or what?

By the Venezuelan Embassy?
It's the third time you post the same source with a different link and still you don't even know the source. It's the same resume of ABN. This time it's retaken by the Venezuelan Embassy in the US. ABN, you know what it is at least?

You're talking about a poll with 20 or 30 questions. When the entire poll is available in a "link", I'll give you the info. Until then, I'll restrain myself from giving you links with incomplete partial info from globovision on one side or ABN on the other. Both will obviously make it look favorable to them. I know the latest IVAD poll because I've read it from the source. Gather all the info given by El Universal, globovision, Ultimas Noticias, RNV, ABN and you'll get a wider image. They don't lie, they pick the questions they use later in their resumes.

If you want an impartial link, be patient.

[Wilms]

42. Are you assuming the figure is in error?

So your link is ok because...it's your link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x30383

But when I post a refutation it's tainted info? How's that?

BTW, how's that opposition shaping up? Any great ideas for VZ? Or just the usual Chavez bashing?

[EFerrari]

37. You seem to think anything to the left of the Miami Hurled is "miitant".

And I notice you're posting links to Spanish language right wing rags.

There are a lot of bilingual people here, chango.

[ChangoLoa]

38. You're making up stuff again, pretending to talk to someone who doesn't exist

What links to Spanish language right wing rags are you talking about? If you're referring to Tal Cual criticizing the opposition's excesses and defending the PSUV governor in Lara against the chavista radicals, you're showing that you're not really bilingual, EFerrari.

When have I ever posted anything from the Miami hurled?

Isn't The Morning Star a militant journal?

What could you be possibly talking about???

... You act like an inquisitor ...


You do it on purpose, I know. As for your right-wing, left-wing considerations, show me one word, ONE SINGLE WORD, that I've written and would allow you to conclude that I'm right-wing. You know you're wrong but you keep on. It's the xth time you express such judgments, it's the xth time I ask you to give at least an example of your accusation. You do it on purpose, it's insulting and pointless.

Talk about ideas, situations, not about people and especially not posters. Nothing interesting in that.

[EFerrari]

43. I won't even try to unravel that except to point out

that while you are complaining to me about being too personal, you are at the same timing insulting Wilms below. Maybe you should take your own advice.

[EFerrari]

24. Hugo Chavez stole my cheeseburger.

[Wilms]

29. You "consider him an enemy to freedom and this nation"?

He scares you. Right?

:rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. EEEK!! Another brown bogeyman!! Quick give more money to the Pentagon!!

[JackRiddler]

8. And I'm sure that's exactly how it happened, step for step, word for word.

Said so by the BBC News (always active exposing injustice and mayhem, anywhere the UK doesn't directly have a hand in it)!

[EFerrari]

11. Shouldn't you be out defending a golf course from communism?

:rofl:

[Mika]

12. Hugo's friend, Castro, did it!

He is the Tiger Woods of expropriation.

---

[EFerrari]

13. LOL

:rofl:

[Peace Patriot]

14. The BBCon strikes again!

What a piece of crapola writing! No context is given for the tour of historic areas or for Chavez government policies/programs for preservation of historic buildings, and the entire hit piece is designed to make Chavez look like a "dictator." I thought they'd given up on that one and that he is now "incompetent." They'd better check with Langley for the latest narrative.

The Chavez government has scrupulously followed the Venezuelan Constitution's protection of private property--which they helped write and get passed by the voters. ALL governments appropriate property from time to time--for baseball stadiums, for freeways, for airports, for parks, for historic preservation, for hundreds of purposes. The Chavez government has been more scrupulous than most about paying for it, when they do. And I would bet money that this is a second-hand conversation. Look how the anonymous writer (a BBCon editor in London?) frames this: "The order is likely to please and anger Venezuelans in equal measures, says the BBC's Will Grant in Caracas." Where was Will Grant when this supposed conversation between Chavez and the mayor took place? Why is there no dateline location? What the hell kind of reporting is this? They talk to a USAID spy or what?

The BBCon has gotten to be as bad as Rotters and the Associated Pukes!

[Judi Lynn]

15. Do you imagine historic sites are not preserved in the United States? n/t

[Mika]

17. And quite often it takes a citizen uprising to preserve historic buildings from corporate gov..

The Art Deco buildings of Miami/Miami Beach are an example of that.

In the bastion of Freedom™, the SCOTUS has upheld expropriation/eminent domain by cities/counties to tear down historic sites to replace them with corporate "renovations" for tax base gains.

---

[protocol rv]

19. But there's the law, isnt it?

The decision was made in a capricious manner. There has been no legal proceedings, no reports were written recommending the government actions taken. Does the government behave this way in the US, where a high government official can dictate that a building be taken over, and there are no court proceedings, no studies, no right to appeal? I don't think so.

[Mika]

20. What? Do you really think that this will not be contested (if its even true)?

It seems that you have more faith in the concrete nature of a (media fabricated) Chavez decree. How many freakin' times have we heard shit like this only for it to be reversed (more like: debunked as bullshit).

Like the Castrophobes, you Chavistaphobes really reach to grasp at anything fantastical, trying to taint President Chavez.

Oh well, at least you admit Chavez is honestly elected.

---

[Bacchus39]

23. coming from someone who says Ecuador doesn't deal in US dollars

talk about bull shit.

[EFerrari]

26. My two favorites so far is when the Financial Times said Hugo Chavez stole an oil rig

and then, that time when they said he stole a four star luxury hotel -- whose purchase happened before his tenure.

There's a whole urban legend dissertation here somewhere. :)

[protocol rv]

34. Chavez doesn't steal

The government nationalizes property. Sometimes they take over foreign companies' equipment and use it without paying for it. This makes it very hard to ask for contract firms to bring their equipment to Venezuela for specialized services. And this is hurting PDVSA's ability to service its equipment.

[Wilms]

35. Got a link for the takeover without paying bit? n/t

[EFerrari]

36. You really need to stop making these ridiculous claims

because too many posters to this forum know better and you just look foolish.

[Bacchus39]

44. yes, please inform protocol and Chango about the country they live in

that you know so well. we're all ears.

[protocol rv]

28. It is being contested

But the decision was highly irregular, and contrary to both the law and the Constitution. Because the courts are controlled by the government, the cases will never reach the courts (there hasn't been a single case where a court ruled against a government expropriation).

There is nothing "fantastical" about this news report. It happened, it is being reported accurately. The store owners ARE evacuating the premises, and trying to get redress, thus far with no success. President Chavez, alas, taints himself. And remember, right now the majority of Venezuelans think he's doing a lousy job, and are ready to vote him out of office.

As for Castro, it's a real shame you think a man who has maintained himself as a harsh dictator for over 50 years, deserves anything but scorn. I suppose you also admire Idi Amin, the way Chavez does?

[Bacchus39]

22. you are correct. a historic designation for a building or structure does not mean its expropriated

the laws are designed to protect the historic nature of the building so its appearance remains of the historic nature. by no means does that mean the government comes in and seizes it. the vast majority of historic properties are in private hands.

[EFerrari]

25. Yes, it's called Eminent Domain.

Not only can they take your property for historic sites and critical infrastructure, under Bush they started taking property to sell at a reduced cost to their business friends.

[Bacchus39]

27. wrong, they cannot take property "for historic sites"

and yes there are legal proceedings required to expropriate property. its not done by decree like Chavez. don't listen to the Chavez butt kissers. they haven't even been to your country